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Vatican condemns IVF, the Pill (Why is this so surprising alert!)
Reuters ^ | December 12, 2008 | Philip Pullella

Posted on 12/12/2008 6:09:21 AM PST by NYer

THE Vatican today said life was sacred at every stage of its existence and condemned artificial fertilisation, embryonic stem-cell research, human cloning and drugs which block pregnancy from taking hold.

A long-awaited document on bioethics by the Vatican's doctrinal body also said the so-called "morning after pill" and the drug RU-486, which blocks the action of hormones needed to keep a fertilised egg implanted in the uterus, fall "within the sin of abortion" and are gravely immoral.

"Dignitas Personae" (dignity of a person), an Instruction of Certain Bioethical Questions," is an attempt to bring the Church up to date with recent advances in science and medicine.

It said human life deserved respect "from the very first stages of its existence (and) can never be reduced merely to a group of cells."

"The human embryo has, therefore, from the very beginning, the dignity proper to a person," the docment by the Congregations of the Doctrine of the Faith said.

It said most forms of artifical fertilisation "are to be excluded" because "they substitute for the conjugal act ... which alone is truly worthy of responsible procreation".

It condemned in-vitro fertilisation, saying the techniques "proceed as if the human embryo were simply a mass of cells to be used, selected and discarded."

The highly technical document said only adult stem cell research was moral because embryonic stem cell research involved the destruction of embryos.

In the document, the Vatican also defended its right to intervene on such matters.

(Excerpt) Read more at theaustralian.news.com.au ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: catholic; cloning; ivf; moralabsolutes; pope; prolife; vatican
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins
Your confidence is no substitute for actual proof.
So you think there is an outside chance that in an infinite number of years, there will be frozen, living embryos somewhere in the universe? Say it ain't so.

Since the transition is more-or-less random and unpredictable, it can be assumed an act of God that killed it...
To address your "act of God(that you don't believe in)" bit, if the embryos are human lives, don't we have the same duty to protect them as we would a newborn? If I toss a baby out in the snow, can I claim that the near certain eventual death was caused by an act of God rather then my heaving him out into the snow?

301 posted on 12/12/2008 12:00:06 PM PST by BMiles2112
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To: netmilsmom
Humans have NO instincts.

From your own post earlier, prior to that conference that defined what 'instinct' must mean, there was a list of 4000 human instincts. Suddenly, in a short span, they got reduced to none. Maybe instinct isn't the right word, but the meaning is something close. Like how babies, when immersed water, "instinctually" manage to cease breathing the water in. Haven't heard of that? Here, have a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFKt3KRqg5s&feature=related

You are so pitiful; you seek to confront, rather than make solid arguments. Sad. And immature.

302 posted on 12/12/2008 12:03:02 PM PST by MyTwoCopperCoins
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins; Petronski

Petronski, we’ve been arguing with an effeminate 8 year old this whole time!


303 posted on 12/12/2008 12:06:36 PM PST by BMiles2112
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To: BMiles2112
Petronski, we’ve been arguing with an effeminate 8 year old this whole time!

"...and worst of all, lost to that "8-year old"

LOL!

304 posted on 12/12/2008 12:10:41 PM PST by MyTwoCopperCoins
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

>>Maybe instinct isn’t the right word, but the meaning is something close. <<

“I know what I mean and I am right.”

>>Like how babies, when immersed water, “instinctually” manage to cease breathing the water in.<<

That’s call “reflex”, silly!


305 posted on 12/12/2008 12:12:18 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: BMiles2112; Petronski

>>”...and worst of all, lost to that “8-year old” <<

And with the deluded ego of an 8 year old too!


306 posted on 12/12/2008 12:14:46 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: NYer

Bookmark for pinging unless it got pinged already and I didn’t see it!


307 posted on 12/12/2008 12:16:03 PM PST by little jeremiah (Leave illusion, come to the truth. Leave the darkness, come to the light.)
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To: netmilsmom

Okay, I take it that you understand the context of my usage of the word.


308 posted on 12/12/2008 12:17:52 PM PST by MyTwoCopperCoins
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To: netmilsmom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosexual_development


309 posted on 12/12/2008 12:24:10 PM PST by MyTwoCopperCoins
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

I understand your error in the usage of the word and therefore the debate is flawed.

But thanks for playing!


310 posted on 12/12/2008 12:24:46 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

Yup, and that is why Freud is considered only ONE reference. Now you’re in my field. Worked Psych for a while.

Do you know how many Psychs disagree with Freud?

And if the “instinct” to reproduce was the number one, end all be all “instinct” why is it that Europe can’t even produce enough offspring to replace their population?


311 posted on 12/12/2008 12:29:10 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: netmilsmom
Only someone with an infantile brain would assume that a word with a spectrum of meaning (even that, debatable) would throw away the essence of the argument.

You must be ignorant of Bushisms, I take it?

All you portray here, quite oblivious to your own childish self, is your desperation to run away from the discussion, seeing almost every point you attempt to make, get decimated by counterarguments. Your earlier tactic of attacking the poster rather than the argument, was telling in and of itself of your intent, and inherent lack of confidence, to argue to the point. All of these are available on this thread for all to see!

Please continue here; your senseless babble and focused frustration makes for light entertainment!

312 posted on 12/12/2008 12:32:18 PM PST by MyTwoCopperCoins
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To: netmilsmom
Do you know how many Psychs disagree with Freud?

"100 Authors Against Einstein"

LOL!

I'm off from here for a while. You may have the last word. This thread is done!

313 posted on 12/12/2008 12:35:55 PM PST by MyTwoCopperCoins
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins; trisham; Petronski

>>You must be ignorant of Bushisms, I take it?<<

I’m not ignorant of trolls who come in stating they are lurkers for a long time, with a recent sign up date, who eventually use words that are hints to their true way of thinking.


314 posted on 12/12/2008 12:36:06 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: netmilsmom
The facade can only be maintained for so long.
315 posted on 12/12/2008 12:40:08 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: netmilsmom

Oh my goodness, you truly are a child!

There are delusional idiots who try to put down Bush by focusing on his many mispronunciations and invented words. You are trying hard to be one among that set.

Plus, your desperation is hilarious!

LOL!


316 posted on 12/12/2008 12:40:23 PM PST by MyTwoCopperCoins
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To: ladyjane
>i>Why shouldn’t a bunch of old men sit around condemning fertility interventions?

Let me guess... you're Catholic.

317 posted on 12/12/2008 12:42:55 PM PST by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins
This thread is done!
Aww, Pennies is taking his ball and going home. BTW, pennies are 97.5% Zinc.
318 posted on 12/12/2008 12:43:06 PM PST by BMiles2112
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

I thought you were leaving the thread.

Since you’re still here, answer this question.

If the ‘Instinct’ to reproduce is so strong, why can’t Europe come up with replacement rates for their population?


319 posted on 12/12/2008 12:43:56 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: trisham

>>The facade can only be maintained for so long.<<

You called it, my FRiend!


320 posted on 12/12/2008 12:44:53 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins
To convince someone of God’s existence, you’d also have to explain that talking snake that deceived Eve, to put it simply.

Catholics are not fundamentalists. (They believe that every word of the Bible is literally true. )

In addition, there are many who convert to Christianity without believing that.

321 posted on 12/12/2008 12:48:25 PM PST by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: Patriotic1

Nope. Just think it’s funny that the church hierarchy (btw all male) seems preoccupied with sexuality, fertility and contraception - when they’re not out crusading for illegal immigrants.


322 posted on 12/12/2008 12:49:37 PM PST by ladyjane
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To: netmilsmom

:)


323 posted on 12/12/2008 12:49:37 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: ladyjane

I think we get it.


324 posted on 12/12/2008 12:50:31 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: netmilsmom
If the ‘Instinct’ to reproduce is so strong, why can’t Europe come up with replacement rates for their population?

Glad to see your quality of discussion improve! I hope it isn't a temporary phase.

As for the question, I don't know specifically... has their promiscuity dropped? Or do we have birth control, and an imposing culture that tends to encourage childlessness, and demonise motherhood, to blame? Birth control by hormonal contraceptives, might be another angle.

Strangely, European women who marry Indians seem to have many children. This based on about five couples that I personally know.

325 posted on 12/12/2008 12:51:08 PM PST by MyTwoCopperCoins
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To: Patriotic1
They believe that every word of the Bible is literally true.

If one is required to make individual decisions on whether something in a book is conveniently literally true or not, then the book is most likely man-made.

326 posted on 12/12/2008 12:55:46 PM PST by MyTwoCopperCoins
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

# for my previous post, ‘make’ also refers to the contents of the book.

Adding this before some child comes around to use this against me.


327 posted on 12/12/2008 12:57:27 PM PST by MyTwoCopperCoins
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

>>As for the question, I don’t know specifically... has their promiscuity dropped? Or do we have birth control, and an imposing culture that tends to encourage childlessness, and demonise motherhood, to blame? Birth control by hormonal contraceptives, might be another angle. <<

Maybe because the “instinct” to reproduce is a myth?
Now I have to educate my own eight year old....bye.


328 posted on 12/12/2008 12:58:45 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: gracesdad
so what about organ transplants,

Well, I might as well be the one who says it, since you brought it up.

There's a lot of discussion/scandal (and not just in the Catholic theological realm) that 'brain death' is a very flimsy scientific concept. There is talk among religious scholars and bioethicists about trying to define things more carefully so that innocent people are not 'assisted into death' earlier than they should be.

No, you haven't heard about it yet, but the talks have started. Perhaps in the next year or two the press will discover it.

FWIW, there are many secular people who have concerns about being donors. Currently, I am listed as an organ donor. If the Church comes out against it with sound arguments, I will change that designation. And yes, I will also not accept an organ from a 'brain dead' donor at that time as well.

329 posted on 12/12/2008 12:58:48 PM PST by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: netmilsmom
Maybe because the “instinct” to reproduce is a myth?

It's not.

IVF is not a painless procedure.

330 posted on 12/12/2008 1:01:22 PM PST by MyTwoCopperCoins
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To: Citizen Blade
It's an interesting debate, of course, but it seems like it is purely academic.

And the Vatican is merely entering into the discussion from a moral perspective. And this does matter to Catholics who follow the teachings of the Church.

No one is saying 'ban it'.

331 posted on 12/12/2008 1:02:07 PM PST by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

>>It’s not. <<

Prove it.


332 posted on 12/12/2008 1:08:20 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

Knock off the personal attacks!


333 posted on 12/12/2008 1:11:54 PM PST by Admin Moderator
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins
IVF is not a painless procedure.
Sex, however, is quite the opposite. And so long as it remains to be the primary mode of reproduction, the onus is on you to explain why, if this instinct is the highest of all, the fertility rate in Europe continues to decline. It cannot be answered in terms of mere "instinct".
334 posted on 12/12/2008 1:12:55 PM PST by BMiles2112
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To: netmilsmom
Wow, that was quick, educating your 8-year old! (Heh heh, I'm picking up your style!)

Prove it.

Fertility clinics are available almost everywhere. Overall, human population is still increasing. Freud.

335 posted on 12/12/2008 1:14:34 PM PST by MyTwoCopperCoins
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To: netmilsmom

The movie Blue Lagoon perhaps? Not the most scientific, but a good example of mating instincts in humans.


336 posted on 12/12/2008 1:15:58 PM PST by Pawtucket Patriot
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

>>Wow, that was quick, educating your 8-year old! (Heh heh, I’m picking up your style!)<<

She had a question, I answered it.

>>Prove it.

Fertility clinics are available almost everywhere. Overall, human population is still increasing.<<
Not in Europe. And I need a reference link. Thanks.


337 posted on 12/12/2008 1:17:08 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: Pawtucket Patriot

>>The movie Blue Lagoon perhaps? Not the most scientific, but a good example of mating instincts in humans.<<

Thanks. I’m not really inclined to base real life on a bad Hollywood movie.


338 posted on 12/12/2008 1:18:31 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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Comment #339 Removed by Moderator

To: netmilsmom

I think Europe (unlike us) doesn’t have an “Abstinence Only” sex education plan, therefore allowing teenagers and responsible adults alike to use birth control and most importantly be informed on how to use it. Obviously many variables are involved in Europe’s population decline, for example is it a movement away from an Agrarian society, or the economic indicator of raising a family? Birth Control availability I would say if I were to guess would be my choice for the biggest culprit.


340 posted on 12/12/2008 1:22:32 PM PST by Pawtucket Patriot
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To: ladyjane
Nope. Just think it’s funny that the church hierarchy (btw all male) seems preoccupied with sexuality, fertility and contraception

Actually, your wording was quite typical of Cafeteria Catholics which is why I thought you could be one.

Well, given that sexuality, fertility and contraception all deal with Life issues, it's a natural preoccupation. These issues are all based in morals and ethics, a natural for religious/theological discussion.

And don't forget, all major Christian denominations were against contraception until the early 20th century. Now, only the Catholic Church remains steadfast in her teachings.

341 posted on 12/12/2008 1:23:19 PM PST by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

You being agnostic/atheist/whatever it was that was said means that you just won’t get it. I was there myself at one point. Catholic belief goes beyond the Bible alone, but let’s not get into that discussion. But of course, books tend to be man-made.


342 posted on 12/12/2008 1:25:59 PM PST by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

None of which (from the BBC I might add) proves that

1. Humans have instincts (unless the BBC is now the end all be all in Science)

2. Why if what you state is true, Europeans as well as most liberals are not fighting to perpetuate their genes.

Gotta go, the Marx Brothers Friday night film festival has started and I’m missing “A Night at the Opera”


343 posted on 12/12/2008 1:32:10 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: netmilsmom
Humans have instincts (unless the BBC is now the end all be all in Science)

Coming from someone who was just posting WikiPedia edits here, this is rich. LOL!



Why if what you state is true, Europeans as well as most liberals are not fighting to perpetuate their genes.


Allow natural selection some time... your descendents will then be asking, "Europeans, who???"

 

Liberalism is not transmitted genetically. Liberals are produced; man-made.

 

Have a nice day!

344 posted on 12/12/2008 1:38:57 PM PST by MyTwoCopperCoins
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To: BMiles2112; netmilsmom; trisham

The correlation between godlessness and fascism has acquired another confirming data point.


345 posted on 12/12/2008 1:44:31 PM PST by Petronski (For the next few years, Gethsemane will not be marginal. We will know that garden. -- Cdl. Stafford)
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To: Citizen Blade

You have the right to bear arms, but you have to buy your own firearms.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Can we use this argument against universal health care?


346 posted on 12/12/2008 1:53:35 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime
Can we use this argument against universal health care?

I don't see why not. Government can't deny you the right to have health care, but that doesn't mean the taxpayers are obligated to pay for it.

347 posted on 12/12/2008 2:03:01 PM PST by Citizen Blade (What would Ronald Reagan do?)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins; Petronski
then what about artificial intervention to keep the terminally ill, alive?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The Catholic Church has never demanded that the terminally ill be kept alive by artificial means. I believe that the position of the church is that people be made as comfortable as possible,( which includes hydration and nutrition, by the way)

Why are you using this strawman argument?

Freezing an embryo is imprisoning a human who is innocent of any crime. Keeping them perpetually frozen is denying them their God given right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

348 posted on 12/12/2008 2:05:07 PM PST by wintertime
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To: Patriotic1
And the Vatican is merely entering into the discussion from a moral perspective. And this does matter to Catholics who follow the teachings of the Church.

Is the Vatican's opposition to IVF solely due to the potential for discarded embryos? That is, if we get to a point wher there is a 1:1 rate of embryos to viable pregnancies (excepting natural miscarriages), would the Vatican drop its objections?

349 posted on 12/12/2008 2:06:07 PM PST by Citizen Blade (What would Ronald Reagan do?)
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To: Citizen Blade

On this point we can agree.

As a Christian though we should be very generous ( privately) so that all can have access to medical care.


350 posted on 12/12/2008 2:06:49 PM PST by wintertime
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