Skip to comments.Vatican condemns IVF, the Pill (Why is this so surprising alert!)
Posted on 12/12/2008 6:09:21 AM PST by NYer
THE Vatican today said life was sacred at every stage of its existence and condemned artificial fertilisation, embryonic stem-cell research, human cloning and drugs which block pregnancy from taking hold.
A long-awaited document on bioethics by the Vatican's doctrinal body also said the so-called "morning after pill" and the drug RU-486, which blocks the action of hormones needed to keep a fertilised egg implanted in the uterus, fall "within the sin of abortion" and are gravely immoral.
"Dignitas Personae" (dignity of a person), an Instruction of Certain Bioethical Questions," is an attempt to bring the Church up to date with recent advances in science and medicine.
It said human life deserved respect "from the very first stages of its existence (and) can never be reduced merely to a group of cells."
"The human embryo has, therefore, from the very beginning, the dignity proper to a person," the docment by the Congregations of the Doctrine of the Faith said.
It said most forms of artifical fertilisation "are to be excluded" because "they substitute for the conjugal act ... which alone is truly worthy of responsible procreation".
It condemned in-vitro fertilisation, saying the techniques "proceed as if the human embryo were simply a mass of cells to be used, selected and discarded."
The highly technical document said only adult stem cell research was moral because embryonic stem cell research involved the destruction of embryos.
In the document, the Vatican also defended its right to intervene on such matters.
(Excerpt) Read more at theaustralian.news.com.au ...
Since the transition is more-or-less random and unpredictable, it can be assumed an act of God that killed it...
To address your "act of God(that you don't believe in)" bit, if the embryos are human lives, don't we have the same duty to protect them as we would a newborn? If I toss a baby out in the snow, can I claim that the near certain eventual death was caused by an act of God rather then my heaving him out into the snow?
From your own post earlier, prior to that conference that defined what 'instinct' must mean, there was a list of 4000 human instincts. Suddenly, in a short span, they got reduced to none. Maybe instinct isn't the right word, but the meaning is something close. Like how babies, when immersed water, "instinctually" manage to cease breathing the water in. Haven't heard of that? Here, have a look:
You are so pitiful; you seek to confront, rather than make solid arguments. Sad. And immature.
Petronski, we’ve been arguing with an effeminate 8 year old this whole time!
"...and worst of all, lost to that "8-year old"
>>Maybe instinct isn’t the right word, but the meaning is something close. <<
“I know what I mean and I am right.”
>>Like how babies, when immersed water, “instinctually” manage to cease breathing the water in.<<
That’s call “reflex”, silly!
>>”...and worst of all, lost to that “8-year old” <<
And with the deluded ego of an 8 year old too!
Bookmark for pinging unless it got pinged already and I didn’t see it!
Okay, I take it that you understand the context of my usage of the word.
I understand your error in the usage of the word and therefore the debate is flawed.
But thanks for playing!
Yup, and that is why Freud is considered only ONE reference. Now you’re in my field. Worked Psych for a while.
Do you know how many Psychs disagree with Freud?
And if the “instinct” to reproduce was the number one, end all be all “instinct” why is it that Europe can’t even produce enough offspring to replace their population?
You must be ignorant of Bushisms, I take it?
All you portray here, quite oblivious to your own childish self, is your desperation to run away from the discussion, seeing almost every point you attempt to make, get decimated by counterarguments. Your earlier tactic of attacking the poster rather than the argument, was telling in and of itself of your intent, and inherent lack of confidence, to argue to the point. All of these are available on this thread for all to see!
Please continue here; your senseless babble and focused frustration makes for light entertainment!
"100 Authors Against Einstein"
I'm off from here for a while. You may have the last word. This thread is done!
>>You must be ignorant of Bushisms, I take it?<<
I’m not ignorant of trolls who come in stating they are lurkers for a long time, with a recent sign up date, who eventually use words that are hints to their true way of thinking.
Oh my goodness, you truly are a child!
There are delusional idiots who try to put down Bush by focusing on his many mispronunciations and invented words. You are trying hard to be one among that set.
Plus, your desperation is hilarious!
Let me guess... you're Catholic.
I thought you were leaving the thread.
Since you’re still here, answer this question.
If the ‘Instinct’ to reproduce is so strong, why can’t Europe come up with replacement rates for their population?
>>The facade can only be maintained for so long.<<
You called it, my FRiend!
Catholics are not fundamentalists. (They believe that every word of the Bible is literally true. )
In addition, there are many who convert to Christianity without believing that.
Nope. Just think it’s funny that the church hierarchy (btw all male) seems preoccupied with sexuality, fertility and contraception - when they’re not out crusading for illegal immigrants.
I think we get it.
Glad to see your quality of discussion improve! I hope it isn't a temporary phase.
As for the question, I don't know specifically... has their promiscuity dropped? Or do we have birth control, and an imposing culture that tends to encourage childlessness, and demonise motherhood, to blame? Birth control by hormonal contraceptives, might be another angle.
Strangely, European women who marry Indians seem to have many children. This based on about five couples that I personally know.
If one is required to make individual decisions on whether something in a book is conveniently literally true or not, then the book is most likely man-made.
# for my previous post, ‘make’ also refers to the contents of the book.
Adding this before some child comes around to use this against me.
>>As for the question, I don’t know specifically... has their promiscuity dropped? Or do we have birth control, and an imposing culture that tends to encourage childlessness, and demonise motherhood, to blame? Birth control by hormonal contraceptives, might be another angle. <<
Maybe because the “instinct” to reproduce is a myth?
Now I have to educate my own eight year old....bye.
Well, I might as well be the one who says it, since you brought it up.
There's a lot of discussion/scandal (and not just in the Catholic theological realm) that 'brain death' is a very flimsy scientific concept. There is talk among religious scholars and bioethicists about trying to define things more carefully so that innocent people are not 'assisted into death' earlier than they should be.
No, you haven't heard about it yet, but the talks have started. Perhaps in the next year or two the press will discover it.
FWIW, there are many secular people who have concerns about being donors. Currently, I am listed as an organ donor. If the Church comes out against it with sound arguments, I will change that designation. And yes, I will also not accept an organ from a 'brain dead' donor at that time as well.
IVF is not a painless procedure.
And the Vatican is merely entering into the discussion from a moral perspective. And this does matter to Catholics who follow the teachings of the Church.
No one is saying 'ban it'.
>>It’s not. <<
Knock off the personal attacks!
Fertility clinics are available almost everywhere. Overall, human population is still increasing. Freud.
The movie Blue Lagoon perhaps? Not the most scientific, but a good example of mating instincts in humans.
>>Wow, that was quick, educating your 8-year old! (Heh heh, I’m picking up your style!)<<
She had a question, I answered it.
Fertility clinics are available almost everywhere. Overall, human population is still increasing.<<
Not in Europe. And I need a reference link. Thanks.
>>The movie Blue Lagoon perhaps? Not the most scientific, but a good example of mating instincts in humans.<<
Thanks. I’m not really inclined to base real life on a bad Hollywood movie.
I think Europe (unlike us) doesn’t have an “Abstinence Only” sex education plan, therefore allowing teenagers and responsible adults alike to use birth control and most importantly be informed on how to use it. Obviously many variables are involved in Europe’s population decline, for example is it a movement away from an Agrarian society, or the economic indicator of raising a family? Birth Control availability I would say if I were to guess would be my choice for the biggest culprit.
Actually, your wording was quite typical of Cafeteria Catholics which is why I thought you could be one.
Well, given that sexuality, fertility and contraception all deal with Life issues, it's a natural preoccupation. These issues are all based in morals and ethics, a natural for religious/theological discussion.
And don't forget, all major Christian denominations were against contraception until the early 20th century. Now, only the Catholic Church remains steadfast in her teachings.
You being agnostic/atheist/whatever it was that was said means that you just won’t get it. I was there myself at one point. Catholic belief goes beyond the Bible alone, but let’s not get into that discussion. But of course, books tend to be man-made.
None of which (from the BBC I might add) proves that
1. Humans have instincts (unless the BBC is now the end all be all in Science)
2. Why if what you state is true, Europeans as well as most liberals are not fighting to perpetuate their genes.
Gotta go, the Marx Brothers Friday night film festival has started and I’m missing “A Night at the Opera”
Coming from someone who was just posting WikiPedia edits here, this is rich. LOL!
Why if what you state is true, Europeans as well as most liberals are not fighting to perpetuate their genes.
Allow natural selection some time... your descendents will then be asking, "Europeans, who???"
Liberalism is not transmitted genetically. Liberals are produced; man-made.
Have a nice day!
The correlation between godlessness and fascism has acquired another confirming data point.
You have the right to bear arms, but you have to buy your own firearms.
Can we use this argument against universal health care?
I don't see why not. Government can't deny you the right to have health care, but that doesn't mean the taxpayers are obligated to pay for it.
The Catholic Church has never demanded that the terminally ill be kept alive by artificial means. I believe that the position of the church is that people be made as comfortable as possible,( which includes hydration and nutrition, by the way)
Why are you using this strawman argument?
Freezing an embryo is imprisoning a human who is innocent of any crime. Keeping them perpetually frozen is denying them their God given right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Is the Vatican's opposition to IVF solely due to the potential for discarded embryos? That is, if we get to a point wher there is a 1:1 rate of embryos to viable pregnancies (excepting natural miscarriages), would the Vatican drop its objections?
On this point we can agree.
As a Christian though we should be very generous ( privately) so that all can have access to medical care.