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Seized gun poses puzzle
winnepeg sun ^ | 13 January, 2009 | CHRIS KITCHING

Posted on 02/01/2009 7:21:00 AM PST by marktwain

A submachine-gun seized during a gang house raid in Winnipeg's North End last week is unlike anything a police firearms expert has seen locally before.

What makes the gun so unique -- and troubling, police say -- is the way it was cobbled together.

"It looks like a hybrid or amalgam of gun parts," said police Det. Const. Rob Duttchen, a member of the National Weapons Enforcement Support Team.

SHOTGUNS STOLEN

Possibly homemade, the submachine-gun and five sawed-off shotguns, along with ammunition, were seized at a house in the 400-block of Manitoba Avenue on Jan. 7, police said.

Three males, aged 17, 27 and 28, are facing almost 120 charges.

Two of the shotguns were stolen during a break-and-enter in the District 6 area, Duttchen said.

The submachine-gun was loaded when it was found, said police spokesman Const. Jason Michalyshen.

It has parts consistent with those of a Second World War-era Sten and M-16 assault rifle, said Duttchen.

A certain level of expertise and knowledge would be required to make such a gun, he said.

Duttchen said the gun will be sent to a lab in Ottawa for examination as part of an investigation into its origin.

Police showed the firearms to reporters yesterday, along with an assortment of drugs and a 9-mm handgun seized during a separate bust Saturday afternoon in the 800-block of McCalman Avenue.

"We've got a significant amount of firepower here," Michalyshen said.

HOLLOWED-OUT BOOKS

The handgun was loaded at the time of the bust, he said.

Two of the more unusual items were hollowed-out books used to hide about $9,000 in cash, police said.

Officers also seized 31.5 ounces of cocaine, 17 ounces of marijuana, eight Percocet tablets, two grams of hashish oil and 3.2 ounces of the cutting agent benzocaine.

Police said the drugs allegedly belonged to a mid-level dealer.

Police said Marc William McIntosh, 29, is facing several drug- and weapon-related charges. He is in custody.


TOPICS: Canada; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist; canada; gun; homemade
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To: Hardastarboard

That’s funny, I draw a crowd every time I fire up the air compressor and impact wrenches to rotate tires. I have started using the hand held battery impact wrenches, so I can now sneak it through with out too many people coming over.

When I get out the torque wrench to torque the lug nuts I always get a ‘gee why do you do that’ ... Well ya Know ...

I still like the air tools for brute force speed though. The air driven hammer makes a great tile remover, and is always a crowd pleaser. Makes quick holes in concrete as well.


51 posted on 02/01/2009 8:39:22 AM PST by Tarpon (America's first principles, freedom, liberty, market economy and self-reliance will never fail.)
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To: Nephi
“Do homemade guns circumvent any firearms laws?”

Sure. Most of them. The 9th Circuit even ruled that if you make your own machine-gun, the Federal laws do not apply because it is not interstate commerce. Unfortunately, I believe that BATF hard lobbied most states to copy the federal legislation. That was probably not legal, but when did the BATF worry overmuch about legality?

52 posted on 02/01/2009 8:43:50 AM PST by marktwain
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To: George Smiley

“There are villages on the Pakistani-Afghan border where you can drop off any sort of modern weapon and come back in two weeks and pick up a functioning copy of same.”

Here’s the video:

http://www.vbs.tv/full_screen.php?s=DGFE2305DC&sc=1363196


53 posted on 02/01/2009 8:45:06 AM PST by shove_it (and have a nice day)
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To: Nephi

I might add that circumventing laws is not illegal.


54 posted on 02/01/2009 8:45:33 AM PST by marktwain
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To: dirtbiker

Additional rules to plumbing.

4. Keep your fingers out of your mouth.
5. Payday is Friday.
6. Rules 1 and 2 assume competence from the previous plumber. Not a safe assumption.


55 posted on 02/01/2009 8:46:43 AM PST by Dinsdale
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP
True, I made a semi auto Cobray once, out of a parts kit, just to see if I could do it. it took hours and hours and hours of work. After I finished, other than for the education experience, I wished I had just bought one.
56 posted on 02/01/2009 8:53:14 AM PST by org.whodat (Conservatives don't vote for Bailouts for Super-Rich Bankers! Republicans do!)
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A certain level of expertise and knowledge would be required to make such a gun, he said.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Well now THAT is profound. Go have a donut now.


57 posted on 02/01/2009 8:54:19 AM PST by loungitude (The truth hurts.)
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To: Dinsdale
6. Rules 1 and 2 assume competence from the previous plumber. Not a safe assumption.

That was one of the first things I had to fix in my wife's house.

Her ex must have been dyslexic....

7. Use PVC glue in well ventilated areas (preferably outdoors)....

58 posted on 02/01/2009 8:55:55 AM PST by dirtbiker (Obama is America's first Affirmative Action president....)
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To: Nephi
Do homemade guns circumvent any firearms laws?

No, as long as you keep shotgun barrels to proper length, and stay away from full auto's. You could build and register full autos for a long time but that was halted some time in the 80's(I think that was the time period).

59 posted on 02/01/2009 8:58:45 AM PST by org.whodat (Conservatives don't vote for Bailouts for Super-Rich Bankers! Republicans do!)
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To: org.whodat
That is not a home made, it is a WWII 45, cal grease gun.

I don't think so... First off, the end cap that secures the barrel is all wrong. As is the metal between the mag well and the trigger guard. We'd know with 100% certainty if it were laying on the other side. Plus, it's not a Sten either. Stens were side feed.

Mark

60 posted on 02/01/2009 9:03:49 AM PST by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: MarkL
The sten is british, the us variant , a grease gun is not a sten.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/M3_submachine_gun

61 posted on 02/01/2009 9:08:16 AM PST by org.whodat (Conservatives don't vote for Bailouts for Super-Rich Bankers! Republicans do!)
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To: marktwain
I might add that circumventing laws is not illegal.

Heh, heh.

62 posted on 02/01/2009 9:26:07 AM PST by Nephi (Like the failed promise of Fascism, masquerading as Capitalism? You're gonna love Marxism.)
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To: mad_as_he$$
That right there is the work of someone who has spent time in the Western Frontier of Pakistan.

Don't bet on it. My guess is that submachinegun is purely the product of Canadian gun control laws.

The British Sten and the Russian PPSh were specifically designed to be built in local garages or metal working shops and the plans exist on the internet. You don't have to go 8000 miles to find people who can build weapons. Besides, the guys in Pakistan seem to only produce copies. The sub gun in the picture looks like a basic Sten design, with the charging handle on the left side, but the magazine has been relocated to the bottom giving the gun better balance during recoil and less tendency to string to the right. That's the kind of simple but original modification that a home gunsmith might make but the Pakistanis probably wouldn't.

I wonder where they got their barrel? Possibly an old UZI or other 9mm carbine.

63 posted on 02/01/2009 9:26:24 AM PST by InABunkerUnderSF (Illegal Immigration is not about the immigration. Gun control is not about the guns.)
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To: org.whodat

I continue to be amazed that the gun control fetish mob doesn’t understand just how dreadfully simple a blow-back sub-gun can be, just as you describe. A straight blow-back, open-bolt gun... except for the barrel, it isn’t even one day’s work in a basic machine shop.

OK, for a nice barrel, add a second day.

What did we have in costs on the M3 in WWII? Something under $5, yes? And they cost reduced it on the second pass?


64 posted on 02/01/2009 9:28:55 AM PST by NVDave
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To: org.whodat

The limitation on building full auto’s came in the administration of Bush the Elder, and as a result of Bill Bennett.

Another alleged “conservative.”


65 posted on 02/01/2009 9:31:42 AM PST by NVDave
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To: dirtbiker
There are only 3 things you have to know about plumbing:
1. Hot is on the left,
2. Cold is on the right, and,
3. $h*t doesn't flow uphill....

Well, that's for a DIYer. As you might expect, at a professional level there's a little more to learn about the trade, and here it is:

4. Payday's Friday.

66 posted on 02/01/2009 9:31:56 AM PST by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: Nephi
Do homemade guns circumvent any firearms laws?

Depends on what you mean by circumvent. If you mean are they legal, then yes, in general. You can't make a machine gun, but you could copy a 1911 or an AR for example. Home made silencers are still regulated like store bought, but you can apply for a permit.

67 posted on 02/01/2009 9:38:29 AM PST by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: Still Thinking
Already covered in Posts 55 and 58, but thanks for the tip.... :-)

Just because I'm a DIY'er doesn't mean I do shoddy work. I used to sell automated farm feeding equipment, and in one county where I installed a new silo unloader, complete with control panel, the county building inspector had to check my electrical work. He said it was the best he had ever seen.

I didn't bother to tell him that I had to re-wire the main breaker box because some idiot had used the white wire for ground instead of the green one....

68 posted on 02/01/2009 9:39:27 AM PST by dirtbiker (Obama is America's first Affirmative Action president....)
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To: Pistolshot; Shooter 2.5
In the picture the charging handle is on the left but I don't see an ejector port, which must be on the right or top. Was/is there a sub gun with the charging handle on the left and the ejector port on the right or top?


69 posted on 02/01/2009 9:40:11 AM PST by InABunkerUnderSF (Illegal Immigration is not about the immigration. Gun control is not about the guns.)
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To: marktwain
A certain level of expertise and knowledge would be required to make such a gun, he said.

I have trouble picturing a gun that would take no expertise and no knowledge to make.

70 posted on 02/01/2009 9:43:15 AM PST by gitmo (I am the latte-sipping, NYT-reading, Volvo-driving, no-gun-owning, effete, PC, arrogant liberal. -BO)
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To: Dinsdale
6. Rules 1 and 2 assume competence from the previous plumber. Not a safe assumption.

I guess the electrical equivalent is black=hot, white=neutral. I got an extremely painful shock one time because the moron who wired my range hood got it backwards. Years of conditioning to this idea makes you a little less cautious with the white wire, and I touched it while leaning the top of my head against the range hood. The shock I got felt like someone took a framing hammer and gave me a good whack on top of the head. I was woozy for like three minutes.

71 posted on 02/01/2009 9:44:23 AM PST by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: InABunkerUnderSF
The publicized part of Paki gun mfg is indeed a knock off operation. There are guys that make stuff that is completely wild cat. I have seen a “Rennington” 700 bdl knock-off chambered in 7.62x39. I tried to buy it a bring it back but the “minder” would not let me.
72 posted on 02/01/2009 9:49:08 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (Chevron 7 will not engage!)
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To: Pistolshot
Looks like a S&W 76 mated to some non-standard parts,

except the charging handle appears to be on the wrong side.

73 posted on 02/01/2009 9:56:18 AM PST by fso301
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To: shove_it
“There are villages on the Pakistani-Afghan border where you can drop off any sort of modern weapon and come back in two weeks and pick up a functioning copy of same.”

Probably don't want to know what offense the guy who made the Norinco pistol copy did to lose his hearing and tongue.

74 posted on 02/01/2009 10:12:32 AM PST by fso301
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To: marktwain

Look folks drug runners are carrying arms and even fabricating their own.

Lets make drugs and guns illegal. That’ll fix it. /sarc.


75 posted on 02/01/2009 10:29:16 AM PST by festus (Politics makes for strange bedfellows)
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To: marktwain

I never thought I’d agree with the 9th circus court.


76 posted on 02/01/2009 10:32:27 AM PST by festus (Politics makes for strange bedfellows)
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To: calex59; marktwain
**As a PS, Guns and Ammo magazine did an article on the gun room back in the 1960s,***

I have those articles in my personal files.

UNDERGROUND ARSENALS BEHIND PRISON WALLS by Clair F. Rees

Guns and Ammo, January 1970.

GUNS OF DESPERATION by John S. Tompkins

TRUE THE MAN'S MAGAZINE, April 1966

GUNS MAGAZINE, various photos no date plus other pictures of home made guns I tore out of other magazines.

If I can get this piece of crap dialup to work faster (ice and snow) I will post the pictures from the articles.


77 posted on 02/01/2009 10:33:07 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (14. Guns only have two enemies: rust and politicians.)
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To: calex59

You have a great memory; a 1960’s G&A article.
I remember one of the pictures from the article was of a metal cartridge case and caption mentioned it appeared factory-like in its finish.


78 posted on 02/01/2009 10:37:37 AM PST by hockea
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
You are doing this on a dial-up! I am impressed by your persistence. I will love seeing the pictures, though.
79 posted on 02/01/2009 10:38:07 AM PST by marktwain
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To: dirtbiker

No, No, No! 1. Sh*t don’t run uphill. 2. DON’T bite your fingernails. 3. Payday is Friday.


80 posted on 02/01/2009 10:52:18 AM PST by Southbound
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To: dirtbiker

Continued...
4.) The boss is an a$$hole
5.) Don’t bite your fingernails. Eeeeeew!
6.) payday is Friday.


81 posted on 02/01/2009 11:10:55 AM PST by postalx
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To: Southbound

Darn it to the pits of Heck!

Too slow!


82 posted on 02/01/2009 11:14:27 AM PST by postalx
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To: calex59; marktwain

83 posted on 02/01/2009 11:15:49 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (14. Guns only have two enemies: rust and politicians.)
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To: dirtbiker
I didn't bother to tell him that I had to re-wire the main breaker box because some idiot had used the white wire for ground instead of the green one....

Ah. Then you'd enjoy my post #71.

84 posted on 02/01/2009 11:27:46 AM PST by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: calex59; marktwain

85 posted on 02/01/2009 11:29:36 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (14. Guns only have two enemies: rust and politicians.)
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To: calex59
My personal favorite photo of weapons found in Koje Do prison.


86 posted on 02/01/2009 11:38:28 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (14. Guns only have two enemies: rust and politicians.)
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To: calex59
From GUNS MAGAZINE. Ignore the bottom caption as it is for factory made pistols/ The pearl handled pistol shown was made from a piece of railroad iron.


87 posted on 02/01/2009 11:39:13 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (14. Guns only have two enemies: rust and politicians.)
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To: calex59; marktwain
I remember back in the late 1960's Gun World had an article about a 1911 Colt pistol handmade in Vietnam or Cambodia, the Cao Dai pistols. I don't have a photo of it but it is mentioned in SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD by Ed Ezell, 1977

Another interesting book is ZIPS, PIPES, AND PENS by Truby published by Palladin Press. It is loaded with various zip guns.

Then there is WEAPONS OF THE AMERICAN UNDERGROUND with aricles on home made sub machine guns.

In the 1980's there was a magazine FIREPOWER, which built and tested many of these machines. That is when LICENSED NEW machine guns were still legal to buy.

This is my last photo.

Yessir'e gun control works, doesn't it!


88 posted on 02/01/2009 12:14:42 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (14. Guns only have two enemies: rust and politicians.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
I remember back in the late 1960's Gun World had an article about a 1911 Colt pistol handmade in Vietnam or Cambodia, the Cao Dai pistols. I don't have a photo of it but it is mentioned in SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD by Ed Ezell, 1977

Is this the one?


89 posted on 02/01/2009 12:22:58 PM PST by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar; hockea

Thanks to both of you guys, especially Ruy Dias de Bivar for his 6 replies and the in depth answers he gave. I appreciate both of you answering. Very few people know about the guns made in Prisons, due mainly to the MSM hushing up any article that might mention them, and it is good to know someone out there has a memory as good as mine or at least(in the case of Ruy Dias)has done more research than I have lately on the subject. :)


90 posted on 02/01/2009 12:35:06 PM PST by calex59
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar; hockea
I remember back in the late 1960's Gun World had an article about a 1911 Colt pistol handmade in Vietnam or Cambodia, the Cao Dai pistols. I don't have a photo of it but it is mentioned in SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD by Ed Ezell, 1977 Another interesting book is ZIPS, PIPES, AND PENS by Truby published by Palladin Press. It is loaded with various zip guns. Then there is WEAPONS OF THE AMERICAN UNDERGROUND with aricles on home made sub machine guns. In the 1980's there was a magazine FIREPOWER, which built and tested many of these machines. That is when LICENSED NEW machine guns were still legal to buy.

I remember reading an article about Vietnam in one of the gun magazines some time around 1970 that showed a bolt action rifle that was a copy of a chinese WWII rifle that had been hand made with files and not much else. Once the knowledge of firearms is out there, it cannot be suppressed.Can you imagine making a gun out of a file? How about Carbine Williams making the M1 Carbine in prison? It just isn't possible to stamp out guns, regardless of what liberal a**hats tell us.

91 posted on 02/01/2009 12:39:30 PM PST by calex59
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To: org.whodat
That is not a home made, it is a WWII 45, cal grease gun.
92 posted on 02/01/2009 12:46:50 PM PST by calex59
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To: org.whodat
That is not a home made, it is a WWII 45, cal grease gun.

Messed up the first post, here it is again!

Sorry, while it may not be home made it is NOT an M3 Grease gun. The ejection port is on the wrong side, for one thing. Many sub-machine guns were made out of stamped parts and resembled the grease gun. BTW, I was in the army from 1950 to 1962 and us tankers were armed with grease guns, so I can tell one at a glance. The ejection port is on the right side of the weapon(right side determined if you were holding it)and they have a cocking groove in the bolt(early ones didn't). They were great weapons even though they looked cheap and shoddy.

93 posted on 02/01/2009 12:50:12 PM PST by calex59
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To: marktwain; All

Everyone was enjoying this post about an illegal homemade submachine gun, that I thought you might enjoy this one about a legal homemade open bolt .22 single shot pistol.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2176331/posts


94 posted on 02/01/2009 1:44:50 PM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

I’ve watched enough people that I know you use cement for PVC and pipe tape for iron pipes.

And that you should shut the breaker for any outlets you’re replacing in a room.

Don’t know anything about cars, unfortunately.

Should we all have to conglomerate in a couple of states, I know I won’t be useless.


95 posted on 02/01/2009 1:48:19 PM PST by wastedyears (April 21st, 2009 - International Iron Maiden Day)
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To: Tarpon

Then it’s a good thing I’ve never done the club scene.

Rock concerts are a different story, however.


96 posted on 02/01/2009 1:51:57 PM PST by wastedyears (April 21st, 2009 - International Iron Maiden Day)
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To: Still Thinking
This was a 240 volt, single phase circuit, with black, white and green wires. Black and white are hot, green is ground, is the "normal" way to wire it.

This guy had black and green hot, white ground.

I wondered why that damned box kept shocking me....

97 posted on 02/01/2009 2:08:14 PM PST by dirtbiker (Obama is America's first Affirmative Action president....)
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To: Tarpon

Then it’s a good thing I’ve never done the club scene.

Rock concerts are a different story, however.


98 posted on 02/01/2009 2:08:19 PM PST by wastedyears (April 21st, 2009 - International Iron Maiden Day)
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To: dirtbiker

If it’s commercial and thus done as wires in flex or BX as opposed to Romex, B-phase should be something other than white. NEC 200-7


99 posted on 02/01/2009 2:35:43 PM PST by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: dirtbiker

I meant to add that red is the usual color for B-phase in 240.


100 posted on 02/01/2009 2:39:00 PM PST by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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