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What Is Science?
AiG ^ | Roger Patterson

Posted on 02/19/2009 9:24:24 AM PST by GodGunsGuts

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To: Buck W.
Sizeable majority? Sizeable majority of who? What church do you attend that does do preach from the word of God? Yes the bible. That thing that you call a story book. If you don't believe the bible what do you believe? At least these other guys are honest about not believing in Jesus Christ as their Savior.
301 posted on 02/21/2009 9:38:24 AM PST by TinCan
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To: metmom; whattajoke
What happens when little Babaganoush's parents want "equal time" for the Hindu creation myth, which is as equally valid as yours? You think you have lawsuits now (though we've yet to see one of the ones referenced no this post), imagine the lawsuits THEN. Though it would be entertaining to see the YECs fighting the OECs fighting the biblical literalists fighting the theological evolutionists fighting the Hindus fighting the Muslims fighting the Wiccans.

But I guess that's what you want, right?

Unreal, the only thing missing is flying purple spaghetti monsters and Marshall Applewhite's gang!

Liberals don't know when to stop because they have no shame.

Not in destroying what little is left of the country, not of their own abject failures and not of their multiple failed arguments and most certainly not of their ignorance.

302 posted on 02/21/2009 9:39:55 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: allmendream; metmom

Learning biology is not learning an ideology, but learning about the results of a scientific discipline.


But the cult of evolution is not biology.

And the cult of evolution isn’t remotely necessary to properly understand anything else you listed.

Really allmendream, parroting the same failed tired rhetoric week in week out truly does not advance your failing arguments!


303 posted on 02/21/2009 9:44:52 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: TinCan

What truly bothers me about creationism is the malicious fallout that can occur when it is viewed from the outside by Christianity’s opponents. Yes, you guys are clearly weak in faith and require the firmament of supposedly inerrant words to which to anchor. Fine—please reassure yourselves, but do so in private. Unfortunately, there is a lot of resistance to Christianity in the real world, and your particular small subgenre is being used to characterize the rest of us in a truly offensive way. We Christians object to being portrayed as feeble-minded by association.

So sayeth Buck W., Christian, purveyor of wisdom, seeker of truth, fair arbiter, and demonstrably kind to kittens and other small animals.


304 posted on 02/21/2009 10:36:48 AM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Buck W.

It really doesn’t matter what line of reasoning the accommodationist applies to the science vs creation argument, because he has already framed the argument from the perspective that truth is discerned independent of God.

The more basic perspective is to ask if one finds the Word of God to be more veritable or science more veritable for absolute truth.

Once that is established, then one’s faith has been identified either through faith in Christ or in something added to or independent of Him.


305 posted on 02/21/2009 10:43:56 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Ethan Clive Osgoode
When I was a child, the world’s population was a little over two billion people. Hundreds of millions were dying from starvation or suffering and dying from horribly advanced diseases (or both). In China. In India. In Africa. In Russia. In Southeast Asia. In the Middle East. I know this because my two uncles, who had served in CBI, told me about it when they came back from The War (and there were other sources, like the newsreels, and some of what I know is retrospective). Despite the carnage, there were more people walking around after The War than before. At the time, the theory was that the World was heavily overpopulated, and that it was obvious there had to be a large-scale dying off of the human population before starvation and disease would be brought under control. I didn’t wonder about any of this at the time, if I paid any attention to it at all (which was seldom). I was a kid, what did I know.

Now, some sixty plus years later, the world’s population is three times what it was then, and I would venture to say that the number of people dying from starvation and horrible diseases is substantially less today than it was then, not just as a percentage, but in pure numbers alone. And, this despite the basket case that is Africa, which is worse now than it was then.

Clearly, something has gone wrong with the Malthusian theory. By any standard gauge, the theory is a flop. As further testimony to this fact, I must report that I have yet to meet an enthusiastic Malthusian (or any of the modern variations) who is prepared to show us the way by being the first to plunge into a premature oblivion.

306 posted on 02/21/2009 11:03:01 AM PST by YHAOS
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To: Cvengr

You’re a person of faith, as am I, and I respect your point. However, the content of your post is jargon. You begin by referring to opponents of creationism as “accommodationists”, and then use that opening to define the argument as science vs. God. By so doing, you have added nothing but another layer of Sunday sermon happy-speak.

It is quite clear to all that the crux of the issue can be found in the term “Word of God”. You believe that the Word of God is literally transcribed in the Bible, and that’s the last word (no pun). However, I (and most Christians) believe that the Bible is allegorical, and that science is a natural outgrowth of the brain that God gave us, to be used to gain an understanding of the universe around us.

I believe that God would be sorely disappointed it we didn’t try.


307 posted on 02/21/2009 11:04:29 AM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Buck W.
“However, I (and most Christians) believe that the Bible is allegorical”

Where do you come up with this? Have you done some sort of survey? Do you believe that John 3:16 is allegorical? How about Matthew 28:5 is that allegorical? Where does you faith lie?

308 posted on 02/21/2009 11:44:20 AM PST by TinCan
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To: TinCan

Do you consider Catholics and Episcopalians to be Christians?


309 posted on 02/21/2009 11:47:08 AM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: TinCan

“Do you believe that John 3:16 is allegorical? How about Matthew 28:5 is that allegorical? “

You do understand what an allegory is, right?


310 posted on 02/21/2009 11:50:18 AM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: allmendream

Try this on for size. Nobody else has bothered to answer it.

“Would you support the opt out option for students in the public schools in regards to teaching creation instead of an outright ban on teaching creation in science classes? One that would allow creation to be taught along with evolution but not requiring that children attend?”


311 posted on 02/21/2009 12:00:21 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Buck W.; Cvengr
However, I (and most Christians) believe that the Bible is allegorical, .....

Most Christians? You have a source for that?

If you believe that the Bible is allegorical, then do you believe that Christ is real?

Is sin real?

Did anything in the Bible really happen?

312 posted on 02/21/2009 12:02:57 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
No.

I think a “comparative religion” class or even a “Bible” class would be perfectly acceptable. And in either one it should be pointed out that creationism is a minority view among religions and among adherents to the Bible.

But creationism AS science, or instead of science is absolutely unacceptable.

313 posted on 02/21/2009 12:35:24 PM PST by allmendream ("Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be redistributed?")
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To: metmom

Have you researched the “komodo dragon” argument yet?


314 posted on 02/21/2009 12:36:35 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: allmendream

Spot on.


315 posted on 02/21/2009 12:37:41 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Buck W.
Can you or will you answer a question with a statement? You claim to be a Christian, Then do you believe that John 3:16 and Matthew 28:5 really happened?
316 posted on 02/21/2009 12:54:26 PM PST by TinCan
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To: TinCan

I don’t respond to Christian litmus tests. The fact that you wish to apply such a test demonstrates that you cling to a definition of Christianity whose sole purpose it is to justify your adherence to creationism and the literal inerrancy of the bible. Those who don’t conform are therfore not Christians by (your) definition.

You don’t control the faith. I’m a Christian despite your attempts to redefine the undesireables.


317 posted on 02/21/2009 1:08:03 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: TinCan

Perhaps you, too, should research the “komodo dragon” argument!


318 posted on 02/21/2009 1:09:28 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Buck W.
Not a test. Just a simple question. You're the one claiming that most Christians believe the way you do. I'm just trying to find out what you believe?
319 posted on 02/21/2009 1:16:19 PM PST by TinCan
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To: allmendream
No, I don't think any secular group has the “right” to teach their beliefs;

Yet your expressions on this forum indicate an indifference to what beliefs are taught in public school, so long as they are secular and not “religious” (on those rate occasions when you remember, “oh, yeah, that’s right, it’s “religious” public education I oppose, not just “Christian” public education.) What values, then? Don’t bother to answer if you can’t get past generalized platitudes and deal with specifics. What values are composed of the value-sets of public teachers today, and which of those values would you wish to see passed on to the students and which would you not? How do you separate the chaff from the grain, and who decides which is chaff and which is grain, if it’s not the patrons of the school district? I don’t wish to be insulting, but I would venture to say that your thoughts have not gone much beyond “don’t let it be Christian values that are taught.” Maybe with a little foray into don’t let it be religious values.

When Jefferson and Adams spoke of the need for ‘moral instruction’ in public education, what values do you suppose they had in mind composing the base of that moral instruction? And, more importantly for our modern discussions, did not their narrative explicitly recognize that someone’s values would be included in education, public or private? Whose, then?

. . . but children in public schools should have the expectation of a good education. .

Why?

Do you think . . .

I think what is taught this country’s children is none of the government’s business. I think this is particularly the case when government (national, state, and, increasingly, even local) has come to look upon their respective education departments as ministries of information, whose chief function is to project and promote the government’s interests. I think that as soon as you begin asking some parents if they believe they have a right to enforce their values on other peoples’ children, then you have a moral obligation to explain to those parents why it’s perfectly appropriate that values inimical to their beliefs should be enforced on their children. I think, at bottom, that is a conversation you don’t want to have.

320 posted on 02/21/2009 1:21:47 PM PST by YHAOS
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To: TinCan

My reference was more general, that is, to the belief that the bible is allegorical and that Christianity is supportive of a belief in evolution. I was not referring to specific passages.

But you knew that!


321 posted on 02/21/2009 1:24:45 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Buck W.
Then do you believe that John 3:16 and Matthew 28:5 really happened?

Dude just answer the question. Is there a problem in professing your belief in Jesus? Most Christians I know have no problem in doing this.

322 posted on 02/21/2009 1:31:43 PM PST by TinCan
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To: TinCan

Sorry, I don’t respond to “Dude”, either...


323 posted on 02/21/2009 1:36:08 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Creation scientists owe me this explanation:

How many species at the time of Noah’s Ark?

How big a ship to hold them all (2 each)? Historic examples of such vessels.

Criticisms of evolution seem to focus on missing things from sequences.

I am just asking for the most simple, basic proofs of the creation story.


324 posted on 02/21/2009 1:37:30 PM PST by truth_seeker
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To: ToGodBeTheGlory
God doesn’t smile on nations that treat the Gospel with such disdain.

So you're opposed to Israel?

325 posted on 02/21/2009 1:40:25 PM PST by onewhowatches
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To: metmom
Is sin real?

I do not believe sin, as interpreted by Biblical standards, is real.

I do believe there are social norms that help preserve order and promote societal harmony and that are in the best interest of all participants.

Hell fire and damnation aren't real either. We don't reap what we sew, in most cases. Justice is hardly equal to the offense in so many cases and Christians take solace that "they will get theirs" when they meet God.

It's abstract but cunning. It calms the masses. And those who live outside Biblical law, in this country at least, do not fear any consequence from those who live within it.

326 posted on 02/21/2009 1:44:05 PM PST by Glenn (Free Venezuela!)
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To: Buck W.

“Evolution and Christianity are perfectly compatible.”

Not to those who insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible.


327 posted on 02/21/2009 1:45:05 PM PST by truth_seeker
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To: truth_seeker

That’s right—a minority among Christians to be sure...


328 posted on 02/21/2009 1:48:05 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Buck W.

Sorry, I don’t respond to “Dude”, either...

Mr. Buck, will you please answer the question?


329 posted on 02/21/2009 1:56:06 PM PST by TinCan
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To: TinCan

Getting a strait answer out of a troll from ‘Disrupter Central’ is like trying to get a banana slug to jump through a flaming circus ring.


330 posted on 02/21/2009 2:17:29 PM PST by Fichori (B. Hussein Obama is nothing but a genocidal Kenyan baby killer ... albeit by proxy)
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To: Buck W.

“That’s right—a minority among Christians to be sure...”

But I am reading that the majority are communists, or worse.


331 posted on 02/21/2009 3:02:35 PM PST by truth_seeker
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To: truth_seeker

“But I am reading that the majority are communists, or worse.”

Consider the source(s)...


332 posted on 02/21/2009 3:26:19 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: onewhowatches

So you’re opposed to Jesus Christ your Savior?


333 posted on 02/21/2009 3:27:09 PM PST by ToGodBeTheGlory ("Darwinism" is Satanism.)
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To: Buck W.

Still waiting.


334 posted on 02/21/2009 3:27:39 PM PST by TinCan
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To: GodGunsGuts

>>What Is Science?<<

Humanity’s major source of advancement of productivity and understanding.


335 posted on 02/21/2009 3:46:24 PM PST by gondramB (Preach the Gospel at all times, and when necessary, use words.)
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To: TinCan

#317.

Check out the komodo dragon argument!


336 posted on 02/21/2009 4:34:06 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: tpanther; allmendream; metmom
Notice when a cultist fails at one argument, they just pull out another long failed argument?

’Tis the common staple of most any political argument, and it is not attributable to any particular group; Christian, Scientist (including those who pretend to speak for scientists), Marxist/Socialist, Republican; Islamic lunatic; or most any other identifiable group. It’s how you keep the controversy going, even long after it deserves nothing better than a dignified death and a decent burial.

337 posted on 02/21/2009 4:52:28 PM PST by YHAOS
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To: metmom
IOW, you would not favor an opt out option for evos who don't want their kids to hear about creation in public schools. Only a complete ban of the topic will suit you, eh? No surprise there.

Nice! I say that I don't want a ban and have never called for a ban and you post that only a complete ban of the topic will suit you. Be careful what you post. God is watching you and waiting.

338 posted on 02/21/2009 4:58:25 PM PST by ColdWater
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To: truth_seeker
Not to those who insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Everytime a Biblical literalist gets his chance to respond literal to Biblical passages he says that the passages have to be interpreted in context with all the other passages in the Bible.

339 posted on 02/21/2009 5:00:49 PM PST by ColdWater
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To: ColdWater

So you would favor addressing creation in the public schools in science class when evolution was taught and that parents who’s who don’t wish to have their kids hear it, can have their kids opt out of that section of class?

You think that keeping the creation account out of the schools and letting evolution have a monopoly is wrong then?


340 posted on 02/21/2009 5:11:33 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: ColdWater

So who insists that the whole Bible be taken literally and doesn’t recognize poetry, parable, songs, allegory, metaphor, etc?

Please provide sources to demonstrate that people like that exist.


341 posted on 02/21/2009 5:13:22 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

I made my post. Quit twisting my words and reposting a false post. Remember. God is watching you and waiting.


342 posted on 02/21/2009 5:13:36 PM PST by ColdWater
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To: metmom

Not to those who insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible.

327 posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 1:45:05 PM by truth_seeker


343 posted on 02/21/2009 5:14:21 PM PST by ColdWater
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To: ColdWater; truth_seeker

Courtesy ping to truth_seeker.

So what does that post prove?


344 posted on 02/21/2009 5:18:30 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: ColdWater

You aren’t answering the question. If you give vague answers or non-answers, you can’t complain when someone misinterprets what you say.

So what is your answer?

Do you support an outright ban on addressing the Biblical creation account in schools thereby teaching evolution only, or would you support allowing it with an opt out option for those who don’t want their kids to hear about it?


345 posted on 02/21/2009 5:20:45 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

You aren’t answering the question. If you give vague answers or non-answers, you can’t complain when someone misinterprets what you say.

Please do not post to me again on this question. I gave a very specific position statement and I am tired of you misrepresenting me and reposting the inane question to me. If you want to discuss my response to that question, please repost my entire response with your requested discussion points.

346 posted on 02/21/2009 5:24:20 PM PST by ColdWater
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To: ColdWater

“Everytime a Biblical literalist gets his chance to respond literal to Biblical passages he says that the passages have to be interpreted in context with all the other passages in the Bible.”

The “Bible” itself being originallty written a few hundred years after the events, in Armaic, Greek, Hebrew, etc.

Then of all the books, some selected for inclusion, some excluded. Then translated to English and to other modern languages.

Then interpreted from pulpits across the faire lande by preachers, by laypersons.

And I keep asking the creation scientists to list all of the species at the time of the flood, describe the necessary sized vessel to hold them, and show that technology was available to build such a vessel.

No takers yet. Surely with only 6,000 years of history to sort through, it should be easy to conjur up evidence of the type I request.

The creation scientists nit pick every gap in millions of years of natural history, yet consistently fail to provide scientific evidence of their claims.


347 posted on 02/21/2009 5:59:14 PM PST by truth_seeker
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To: Buck W.
As a Christian to another Christian why can't you just answer the question?
348 posted on 02/21/2009 8:16:05 PM PST by TinCan
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To: ColdWater; tpanther
I gave a very specific position statement and I am tired of you misrepresenting me and reposting the inane question to me.

But you never answered the question put to you. Responding with a statement about teaching religion in schools (post 191) is not an answer to the two questions.

It's not an inane question. It's very relevant because as a rule, evos tend to support only a complete ban on teaching or even addressing creation along with evolution in the public schools. And the lack of answer on the part of the evos, really tells anyone what the evos position really is; that is ban creation.

The opt out option is used for other courses where the parents object to the course content. It could be used here but I haven't found an evo yet who'd support a common sense, inexpensive solution to the issue of teaching creation in public schools.

The only option is they ever support is an outright ban. Not only do they not want their kids to hear about it, they don't want anyone else's kids to hear about creation either.

It's more than hypocritical that they would object so strongly to their kids hearing something they don't want them to hear, but are so willing to force other people's kids to hear what the other parents don't want them to hear. All in the name of science.....

349 posted on 02/21/2009 8:26:09 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: truth_seeker; GodGunsGuts
And I keep asking the creation scientists to list all of the species at the time of the flood, describe the necessary sized vessel to hold them, and show that technology was available to build such a vessel.

Why?

To what end do you want to know?

Asking one person twice is not what you are implying that you are doing.

No takers yet. Surely with only 6,000 years of history to sort through, it should be easy to conjur up evidence of the type I request.

If you're considering that the evidence is *conjured up* then you're really getting the answer you deserve.

If you're not taking it seriously to begin with, then it doesn't deserve the time involved to give it the courtesy of an answer.

350 posted on 02/21/2009 8:33:12 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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