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The carnivorous nature and suffering of animals
CMI ^ | Robert J. M. Gurney

Posted on 02/20/2009 8:19:51 AM PST by GodGunsGuts

The carnivorous nature and suffering of animals

by Robert J. M. Gurney

All evolutionists and virtually all old-earth creationists believe that animals were killing and eating one another for millions of years, long before the Fall of man. Young-earth creationists argue that this is incompatible with Scripture. Old-earthers dispute the young-earthers’ interpretation of Scripture and employ at least two other counterarguments. One is that carnivorous behaviour is actually very good, and the other is that animals in the wild do not suffer. There is very good reason to believe that they do suffer; but even if they do not, carnivorous activity before the Fall remains incompatible with Scripture...

(Excerpt) Read more at creationontheweb.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: carnivorous; creation; evolution; intelligentdesign; spam
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To: dread78645

Fossil history of the Great White Shark:
As in any intellectual pursuit, reconstruction of evolutionary pathways can be tainted by inherent biases of the researchers. One of the most revealing examples of this tendency is provided by the fossil White Sharks, Carcharodon carcharias and its relatives. Widely perceived as the ne plus ultra of sharkdom, the modern Great White has long been assumed to be the grandest, most polished revision of lamnoid evolution.
The White Shark is a member of the family Lamnidae, which includes three genera: Carcharodon, Isurus, and Lamna. In Oligocene deposits about 30 million years old, teeth have been found that are very similar to those of the White Shark but lack the serrations that characterize the genus Carcharodon. Since the extant mako sharks of the genus Isurus have teeth that are always smooth-edged, these fossils have traditionally been classified as Isurus hastalis. Miocene deposits, about 23 million years old, in Italy have yielded very similar teeth, but with faint serrations near the tip of the blade. These teeth were classified as Isurus escheri, and were regarded as ‘proof’ that the modern saw-toothed great white evolved gradually from smooth-toothed mako sharks of the genus Isurus.
But nature is often subtler than human ideas about how it ‘works’. Paleoichthyologist Henri Cappetta, one of the most distinguished researchers on fossil sharks, noticed that fossil teeth of ‘Isurus’ hastalis are very similar to those of the modern White Shark. In fact, Cappetta has remarked that the two are so similar that fossil Carcharodon carcharias teeth in which the serrations have been abraded away by geological activity are virtually impossible to differentiate from specimens of hastalis. In 1995, paleoichthyologist Mikael Siverson began to question the assignment of hastalis to the genus Isurus. Based on striking similarities between the root shape and overall structure of the tooth blade, Siverson now believes that hastalis and escheri are not makos at all, but direct ancestors of the modern White Shark. Siverson has therefore suggested that they should be re-assigned to the genus Cosmopolitodus. This view has also been adopted by paleontologist David Ward and seems to be gaining acceptance in at least some paleontological and fossil collecting circles.
The assumption that saw-toothed Carcharodon evolved from smooth-toothed Isurus is based on the idea that the appearance of serrations coincides with the origin of the genus Carcharodon. But it’s relatively easy to serrate a tooth, as shown by many clearly separate shark lineages which have independently evolved serrated teeth. A newer interpretation of the lamnoid fossil record holds that the Carcharodon lineage was originally smooth-toothed and is actually older than that of Isurus. According to this scenario, the Carcharodon lineage can be traced back to the smooth-toothed Isurolamna inflata, which lived about 65 to 55 million years ago. I. inflata gave rise to Macrorhizodus praecursor, which lived about 55 million years ago and had smooth edged but broader teeth than its ancestor. Praecursor gave rise to Cosmopolitodus hastalis, which lived about 35 million years ago and developed even braoder teeth. Hastalis, in turn, gave rise to Cosmopolitodus escheri, which lived about 25 to 20 million years ago and had weak serrations on its teeth. And finally, escheri gave rise to the modern White Shark, Carcharodon carcharias, which appeared some 11 million years ago and had the coarsely serrated teeth for which the genus is renowned today. Therefore, Carcharodon and Isurus both descended from Isurolamna inflata and many smooth-edged fossil teeth originally named Isurus are in fact part of the Carcharodon lineage.

Possible evolutionary sequence of the modern White Shark (Carcharodon carcharias)
Morphological studies of modern lamnids by systematist Leonard J.V. Compagno and others provide another source of evidence useful for tracing the group’s evolutionary history. Such studies not only support that Isurus derived from Carcharodon, but also suggest that Carcharodon derived from Lamna. Intriguing new evidence from molecular genetics fully supports this evolutionary hypothesis. It is not yet clear from the fossil record which lamnoid was the common ancestor of Lamna, Carcharodon, and Isurus. Some paleontological circles suspect the best candidate may be Isurolamna inflata or a similar as-yet undiscovered species. Other circles favor a species called Cretolamna appendiculata, known from fossil teeth dating from the late Cretaceous to the mid-Paleocene (about 100 to 60 million years ago). The teeth of Cretolamna are much more solidly built than those of any modern lamnid. But Cretolamna teeth resemble those of Lamna in being smooth-edged with well-developed basal cusplets (small secondary cusps on either side of the main blade). In addition to being a possible ancestor of the mighty great white, Cretolamna almost certainly gave rise to one of the most fearsome predators the ocean has ever produced, the giant-toothed shark known as Megalodon. (Courtesy of http://www.elasmo-research.org/education/white_shark/carcharodon.htm)


51 posted on 02/20/2009 11:51:38 AM PST by New Jersey Realist (Congress doesn't care a damn about "we the people")
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To: Savage Beast

I read Moby Dick a few months ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. A great book despite the fact that everyone who had read it told me it was incredibly boring.


52 posted on 02/20/2009 11:53:20 AM PST by saganite (What would Sully do?)
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To: whattajoke

“From this one: “In today’s fallen world, carnivores eat other animals. But God’s original creation was perfect; man and all the animals were herbivores”

It is kind of like a merger of bible literalism and PETA.


53 posted on 02/20/2009 12:32:34 PM PST by ga medic
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To: dirtboy

Maybe, before the fall, the big, toothy dinos sort of nibbled on the cute salad eating dinos without causing that much damage or pain. /s ;-)


54 posted on 02/20/2009 1:00:03 PM PST by Natufian (The mesolithic wasn't so bad, was it?)
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To: Marie2; varmintman; editor-surveyor
(editor-surveyor is pinged b/c he is mentioned below)

Please note human next to dino footprints at the Paluxy River Bed.

Please note also that the "Paluxy tracks" have been thoroughly discredited innumerable times. I won't burden you with the actual scientific discussion of the matter, but rather supply you with the two top creationist resources who state that the Paluxy tracks are not what you say they are.

Answers n Genesis says not to bring up this topic
Institute for Creation Research says the tracks are not what you claim they are.

Creationists need to stay on top of their silliness.

Oh, there's more! Another creationist who believes that dinosaurs and humans walked the earth together clearly states that he or she feels the Paluxy tracks are nonsense. Hats off to that creationist.

He/she even goes further and writes a page discrediting fake Dr. Carl Baugh! I love it!.

Better, a creationist's letter is posted there stating, "I have most of Dr. Carl Baugh's books on the footprints and I will say that if you are right then I guess Carl Baugh is dishonest..." Indeed!

Aside from all the nonsense at his "museum" (At least even HE had the wherewithal to remove the mind-numbingly stupid Limestone Cowboy exhibit and delete all references to it on his site (even though FReeper editor-surveyor appears to be the last person on earth who believes it's legit - and apparently refuses to admit it's fake) - anyway, as I was saying, aside from the fakery at his "museum," Carl Baugh claims several degrees from Pacific College, which was nothing more than a diploma mill that offered PhD's for $1600. Moreover, Baugh was president of that diploma mill when he gave himself a PhD!

Please, marie2, place your faith in God, not in charlatans who promote lies like Carl Baugh.
55 posted on 02/20/2009 1:30:51 PM PST by whattajoke (.)
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To: whattajoke

Obviously Ken Ham and all those other creationists have backed off due to death threats.

The important question is what Kent Hovind thinks.

And why do famous creationists have initials KH?


56 posted on 02/20/2009 1:48:46 PM PST by js1138
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To: Marie2; whattajoke

Marie2, I encourage you to read John Morris’ ICR article for yourself, and you will find that Mr Joke is lying as he always does as to the meaning of the article.

Morris cautions readers only due to the constantly changing river bed, and the varying quality of the remaining evidence.


57 posted on 02/20/2009 1:56:09 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: js1138
The important question is what Kent Hovind thinks.

Anyone know his Prisoner Number so we can ask? (I'm reminded of him as I plan to do my taxes tomorrow. Y'know, like the law abiding evolutionist that I am.)
58 posted on 02/20/2009 1:57:47 PM PST by whattajoke (.)
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To: js1138
"And why do famous creationists have initials KH?"

"Kicking Heinies" of ignorant evo promotors. ;o)

59 posted on 02/20/2009 1:58:31 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: editor-surveyor; Marie2
Marie2, I encourage you to read John Morris’ ICR article for yourself

But don't you dare read the other links which certainly make my point more directly!

and you will find that Mr Joke is lying as he always does as to the meaning of the article.

Debatable. It is true that Morris is a bit wishy-washy on the matter. (Oh, look what I just did! I admitted you are probably right. If only you could do the same.)

The article's summation states, "Even though it would now be improper for creationists to continue to use the Paluxy data as evidence against evolution, in the light of these questions, there is still much that is not known about the tracks and continued research is in order."

Now, you can take that as editor-surveyor blithely does and state that the tracks are legitimate, or you can wonder why there is such doubt on the ONLY purported man-dino tracks in the world.
60 posted on 02/20/2009 2:08:48 PM PST by whattajoke (.)
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To: saganite

Shout “Moulder”?


61 posted on 02/20/2009 2:35:47 PM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: saganite; ZULU
I expected Moby Dick to be boring. One thing that turned me off was that I had heard it was an allegory, and I thought maybe I was supposed to read two stories in one or something silly like that.

But I thought the story was excellent, and if it was some parallel allegory, I missed it.

I see Ahab as a classical tragic figure whose fatal flaw is his obsession with revenge. So obsessed is he that he denies God, forges his harpoon in the name of the devil, and damns his soul before he will relinquish his obsession.

The ships they meet as they persue his quest do have Biblical parallels.

One had been commandeered by a man claiming to be the Angel Gabriel, who commands Ahab to abandon his quest--and to no avail. Perhaps it was a madman. Perhaps it was the Angel Gabriel.

And then there's the ship whose crew had burned up all their whale oil--like the Foolish Virgins.

And then there was the ship's captain who had been injured as severely as Ahab was but who wisely wanted no part of revenge.

I think Melville's prose is beautiful, e.g. the lines I posted post #14.

I think it's a rich book and a good story.

What do you think?

62 posted on 02/20/2009 8:20:13 PM PST by Savage Beast (The Left is decadence. Hubris and denial lead to tragedy. Marxism is a Fools' Paradise.)
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To: whattajoke

My husband visited the Paluxy river bed in the 70s.


63 posted on 02/21/2009 5:22:55 PM PST by Marie2 (Ora et labora)
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To: whattajoke

“Please, marie2, place your faith in God, not in charlatans who promote lies like Carl Baugh.”

I will indeed, and my belief in a literal six day creation does not depend on dino and human tracks together in the Paluxy river bed. Although I think they are there. Last I heard, no one is allowed to visit any more. Is that still true? If so, scientific inquiry, meet prejudice.


64 posted on 02/21/2009 5:27:29 PM PST by Marie2 (Ora et labora)
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To: Savage Beast

I agree with you. And its a great book too. I think Melville actually served on a whaler. His description of processing a slaughtered whale is so vivid and hellish he must have seen it personally.


65 posted on 02/22/2009 7:33:31 AM PST by ZULU (The Obamanation of Desolation stands here. Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam.)
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