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Evolution debate persists because it's not science
The Sun News ^ | February 23, 2009 | By Raymond H. Kocot

Posted on 02/22/2009 10:58:04 PM PST by GodGunsGuts

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To: Alamo-Girl
Those whose most certain source of knowledge is sensory perception and reasoning – those who do not have spiritual “ears to hear” - may receive the theory and extrapolate it as proof there is a natural explanation for everything and therefore Scripture or indeed any divine revelation witnessed by anyone is not real and not to be trusted. So for them, evolution may become their main reason to aver that God does not exist and thereby suffer the second death.

That seems to be the normal progression.... But jeepers, the flaw is in the first step — the expectation that sensory perception gives us an exhaustive picture of reality, and that reason itself has no limits. Both presuppositions can be shown to be false.

But if we want to embrace such notions, really, we're in tough "ontological shape" because our epistemology is faulty. As you point out, to reduce the world to the competence of the human intellect — to make man the measure, in other words — is to falsify reality. And thereby, to falsify one's own position in it.

I gather it is the persistent desire to live in untruth that causes one to suffer the second death....

Thank you ever so much for your beautiful essay/post, dearest sister in Christ!

651 posted on 03/04/2009 12:53:38 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
But if we want to embrace such notions, really, we're in tough "ontological shape" because our epistemology is faulty. As you point out, to reduce the world to the competence of the human intellect — to make man the measure, in other words — is to falsify reality. And thereby, to falsify one's own position in it.

I gather it is the persistent desire to live in untruth that causes one to suffer the second death....

Indeed. Thank you so very much for your insights and encouragements, dearest sister in Christ!

652 posted on 03/04/2009 1:08:26 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
It strikes me as ironic that such a disciplined area of gathering knowledge would be so inclined to overstate its own findings.

There's an understatement if I ever heard one. ;)

653 posted on 03/04/2009 3:05:51 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: allmendream
My legs are fully functional, but I cannot outrun a polar bear either. A seal gets around on land just fine for what it needs to do.

Well no, and you're not living on shelf ice out-running polar bears to survive either. Which also has nothing to do with the price of eggs in China too.

The point is that seals intermediate limb is not a fully...

NO, the POINT is there's no evidence to suggest it's an intermediate limb other than your sheer conjecture!

The only thing "useless" is your strawmen arguments allmendream.

654 posted on 03/04/2009 5:12:18 PM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: metmom

Can’t you guys ever not misrepresent what someone says?

or not project, or not create endless strawmen...?

Nope.


655 posted on 03/04/2009 5:15:55 PM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: metmom

LOLOL!


656 posted on 03/04/2009 9:13:29 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: tpanther
No evidence to suggest a seals forelimbs are intermediate between a terrestrial and an aquatic limb?

How about the evidence of how they walk on land and swim in water?

Obviously their limb is not of no use, as it was naively and ignorantly suggested an intermediate limb would be, it is of use both on the land and in the water.

But I see how a commitment to a preposterous model would enslave one to that dubious proposition.

657 posted on 03/05/2009 7:33:53 AM PST by allmendream ("Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be redistributed?")
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To: allmendream; metmom
Obviously their limb is not of no use, as it was naively and ignorantly suggested an intermediate limb would be, it is of use both on the land and in the water.

You're the only one that came up with that useless strawman gem Einstein...I (and metmom) argued that there's no evidence suggesting it's intermediate in the first place, and nooooo, it's not evidence "how they walk on land and swim in water", after all WE use our limbs to walk on land and swim in the water, only the situation is in reverse, we do better our of water, our fingers and toes aren't webbed, etc. etc. etc.But this is certainly not evidence that ba-jillions of years ago we were water dwellers either.

But "no use", "useless"...all your silly constructs and no one elses...for instance, I think it makes a great flipper and is great for swimming.

But it sure doesn't do so good on land for much other than hobbling.

658 posted on 03/05/2009 10:33:47 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: tpanther; metmom
Sorry but it was and remains a creationist talking point that a limb that transitions from terrestrial to aquatic use would be useless for either far more than it would be useful for both, and it was metmom who originally brought it up, despite her denial and her complaint that my answers tended to make me look smart and educated.

A seal has not gone the ‘full flipper’ route of the dolphin, nor does it have a fully terrestrial leg. A seal has a limb adapted for use on both the land and the ocean.

Obviously the survival of a seal is not detrimentally impacted by it having a limb that is neither fully a flipper of fully a leg. A seals survival is enhanced by it having a limb that is neither fully a flipper or fully a leg.

659 posted on 03/05/2009 10:39:22 AM PST by allmendream ("Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be redistributed?")
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To: tpanther; allmendream

Do you ever fell like you’re beating your head agaisnt a brick wall when you are trying to convince someone that you didn’t say what they are convinced you said?

Earth to allmendream......

I never said that the limb was USELESS!!!!!! That’s what YOU read into it. You have been informed of that several times and yet persist in believing that’s what I said.

Reread the posts again and see what I said about it’s functionality. I never said that an intermediate limb was useless; I said that it is not very efficient as a fully formed limb for either being a land dweller or a water dweller.

So, since you keep harping on the seals limb being an intermediate limb, what creature is the seal an ancestor of?


660 posted on 03/05/2009 3:42:50 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

You in post #557: “but not all those *failed* plans need be fatal, as in the case of limbs developing to flippers. A limb going to flipper is not a serious enough failure in change that the individual would not not make it to birth. That is not a fatal birth defect.

But what good would a partially formed limb that is transitioning from leg to flipper be? It would be a liability to a land creature, leaving it more susceptible to injury and death as the land creature could not use a hybrid leg/flipper for locomotion very easily, nor could it use a hybrid arm/flipper to gather food.”

Obviously a seal doesn’t see the same problem in having a partial flipper partial leg that you do. And your later claim that I was the one that brought it up?

You in Post #640 “Nobody said anything about transitional limbs being useless either and yet you keep harping on that as if someone stated it. No one brought it up but you.

I said that a transitional limb does not function as well as a fully formed one for the purposes it’s used for. A transitional flipper/limb isn’t as useful for walking and running as a fully formed leg nor would it be as useful for swimming as a fully formed flipper. Watching seals lurch along on the ice demonstrates that.”

But obviously a seal not swimming as well as if it had a fully functional flipper or walking as well as if it had a fully functional leg is not a detriment to seals survival. They both swim well enough and walk well enough to survive and thrive.

Doesn’t seal survival demonstrate to you that your premise is fundamentally flawed?

If not then there is little sense one can impart to you.


661 posted on 03/05/2009 4:15:23 PM PST by allmendream ("Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be redistributed?")
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