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To: GoodDay
The same cannot be said for Darwinian evolution. It isn’t just that we don’t observe it in nature; we don’t observe it even under artificial, experimental conditions. Fruit flies have been zapped with radiation for fifty years; enough radiation to produce horrible mutants with extra feet growing out of their heads and extra wings on their feet...BUT NO NEW SPECIES. Still the same old fruit flies.
Ummmmmm... no.
25 posted on 02/23/2009 1:23:39 AM PST by ketsu (It’s not a campaign. It’s a taxpayer-funded farewell tour.)
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To: ketsu

Ummmmmmm, yes.

“Example one:

Two strains of Drosophila paulistorum developed hybrid sterility of male offspring between 1958 and 1963. Artificial selection induced strong intra-strain mating preferences.

(Test for speciation: sterile offspring and lack of interbreeding affinity.)

Dobzhansky, Th., and O. Pavlovsky, 1971. “An experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila”, Nature 23:289-292.

[Haa, haaaaa, haa, HEEEEE! So, they’re using the well known fact that different STRAINS....STRAINS.....STRAINS —— not SPECIES, but STRAINS, STRAINS, STRAINS, STRAINS, can often produce STERILITY -— STERILITY, which is an evolutionary DEAD END, ergo.....

No new species. Just dead ends. Some rather strong evidence that Darwinism can produce evolutionary dead ends, but no new SPECIES (once more, with feeling now): SPECIES, SPECIES, SPECIES...not STRAINS, STRAINS, STRAINS, or VARIETIES, or KINDS or RACES.

Then they say that “artificial selection” induced strong intra-strain mating preferences.

Ah, what kind of selection again? Doesn’t Darwinian evolution require NATURAL SELECTION (i.e., blind selection by nature alone, meaning without the aid of a conscious intelligent researcher stage-managing anything) Yes! Darwinian evolution requires NATURAL (not ARTIFICIAL) selection.

I’m certainly willing to agree to the notion that life on Earth was “induced” by a researcher named GOD practicing ARTIFICIAL SELECTION. I could even accept (from a logical point of view) the notion that Martians practiced “artificial selection” on terrestrial life to breed new species-—human animal breeders have been doing that with available animal stocks for centuries, and in fact, their craft was precisely what influenced Darwin to invent his theory.

Unfortunately for the know-nothings at, their example disproves Darwinism and points instead to intelligently-directed, “stage-managed” causation.]

“Example two:

Evidence that a species of fireweed formed by doubling of the chromosome count, from the original stock. (Note that polyploids are generally considered to be a separate “race” of the same species as the original stock, but they do meet the criteria which you suggested.)

(Test for speciation: cannot produce offspring with the original stock.)

Mosquin, T., 1967. “Evidence for autopolyploidy in Epilobium angustifolium (Onaagraceae)”, Evolution 21:713-719”

[HEE, HEE, HEE, ha, ha, ha!!!! He just admitted that polyploids (doubled chromosomes) are, in fact, considered to be THE SAME SPECIES as the non-polyploids; just a different RACE (A “race” of plant? I think he means “variety” or “strain.”)

The “mating test” for speciation is a non-test, or at best, an inconclusive test. Wolves are considered to be a different species from dogs, yet both will mate and produce viable offspring. So what. Conversely, Chihauha’s don’t mate with Great Danes, yet both are considered to be of the same species. Again, so what.]

“Example three:
Rapid speciation of the Faeroe Island house mouse, which occurred in less than 250 years after man brought the creature to the island.
(Test for speciation in this case is based on morphology. It is unlikely that forced breeding experiments have been performed with the parent stock.)”

[This is question begging. The author merely asserts “rapid speciation” of the mouse, and then justifies it by claiming that the test was one of “morphology.” “Morphology” also proves that Chihauhas and Great Danes are different “species”, yet they are not. They are different varieties, or strains, or “races”, or “types”, or “kinds”, of the SAME SPECIES. Same for the next example on the site, and so much for the use of morphology as an acid test of speciation.

“Horses” (E. Caballus) and “Donkeys” (E. Asinus) are different species, yet they can mate and produce “Mules” which are sterile, but useful. Nevertheless, they are evolutionary dead ends.

In 1956, the same guy quotes above - Dobzhansky - wrote an article in “American Naturalist” in which he claims that there are several different “species” of fruit flies that have NO morphological what good is morphology as a test of speciation now, eh? TalkOrigins is really claiming this: “We’ll use the interbreeding-test when it suits us in one set of circumstances to prove new speciation; then we’ll use morphology when it suits us in another set of circumstances to prove speciation.” A scientific version of “Heads I win, tails you lose.”

Additionally, regarding “interbreeding” as a criterion: (i) no one knows a thing about the interbreeding habits — assuming they even existed — of all the EXTINCT animal and plant species; and (ii) in large areas of the plant and animal kingdoms, there is no “breeding” at all in the sexual sense, reproduction being accomplished through non-sexual means such as agamospermy.

For your theory to work, you can’t introduce a series of sterile dead ends, and you can’t introduce artificial selection. You need RANDOMNESS in mutation, and BLINDNESS (i.e., “natural”) in selection. Otherwise you are trying to sneak in elements of DETERMINISM (which is non-Darwinian) or CONSCIOUS GOAL DIRECTEDNESS (which is non-Darwinian). is one of the most ignorant and knee-jerk sites on the Web having to do with Darwinism and alternative theories (including, but not limited to, Intelligent Design). It’s about as reliable a source on the subject of Origins as The Huffington Post is reliable on the subject of politics. That you would rely on this site for your argument proves how little you understand about the entire debate and the issues involved in it.

Regarding fruit flies, I want to see a BEE or a WASP emerge from all that radiation zapping; not just a “strain” or a “race” or a “variety” of another fruit fly that can’t mate with other fruit flies because it has legs sprouting from its head.

I love Darwinians. Debating them is like debating liberals.

Read Ann Coulter’s book “Godless” for a pretty good summary of Darwinism, Intelligent Design, and the skirmishes — scientific, logical, and legal — between the two.]

85 posted on 02/23/2009 5:45:05 AM PST by GoodDay (Palin for POTUS 2012)
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