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What Kind of Church Accepts Dr. George Tiller?
The Kansas City Star ^ | June 7, 2009 - 11:29am. | By Barb Shelly

Posted on 06/07/2009 2:56:42 PM PDT by lewisglad

News of Dr. George Tiller's death was only hours old last week when bloggers began asking the question: What kind of church accepts a doctor who performs abortions into its membership?

"I wonder what kind, if any, preaching against sin this church did since Tiller felt welcomed there," opined Blue Collar Todd, who declares on his blog that "liberalism, or sometimes called progressivism, is a false religion that stands in total antithesis to biblical Christianity."

Todd has already made up his mind, and so have others who called or e-mailed me this week to criticize a column I wrote describing the desperate circumstances that brought people to Wichita to obtain late-term abortions.

But I'll take a swing at the pitch anyway.

What kind of church would embrace George Tiller? A church that believes the creator endowed human beings with both conscience and intelligence, to enable us to wrestle with the complicated questions. A church that recognizes that one's relationship with that creator can't be dictated by a central authority, or proscribed by a narrow list of rules.

Tiller's church, Reformation Lutheran in Wichita, Kan., is one that trusts its members with the freedom to decide on matters of conscience. It holds that a choice made for good reasons and in good faith does not separate a human being from God.

Some call this "relativism," and blame it for a decline in morals and corruption of society.

I call it freedom. And, as with the right of a woman to decide on what terms to bring a child into the world, we should be vigilant against anyone or anything that would take it away.

(Excerpt) Read more at voices.kansascity.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events; US: Kansas
KEYWORDS: abortion; abortionist; barbshelly; churchofmolech; elca; fauxchristians; lutherans; moralrelativism; prolife; religiousleft; tiller
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To: GOP_Raider
I would have answered "Unitarian Universalist" but I guess that would have been too obvious?

You'd be wrong. It was ELCA, the "I'm OK, you're OK" organization that mistakes itself for Lutheran.

51 posted on 06/07/2009 3:40:45 PM PDT by GingisK
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To: RichInOC

And they held him up as an example to the rest of the congregation.


52 posted on 06/07/2009 3:40:52 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Fight the bastards or perish! ~ Jim Robinson ~ Þ)
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To: mrmeangenes
Nancy Keenan president of NARAL-Pro-Choice America, said Roeder's comments "continue to escalate that kind of activity, that kind of violence. Quite honestly, I think it's imperative for anti-choice groups to tone down that rhetoric and keep the more extreme elements in their movement form copying Scott Roeder."

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A LEFTY TOLD A LEFTY TO TONE IT DOWN?

53 posted on 06/07/2009 3:42:01 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Psalm 83:1-8 is on the horizon.)
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To: trumandogz

Agreed. I’m just curious why anyone would think the murder of Tiller is somehow even worse than the 60,000 murders Tiller committed.


54 posted on 06/07/2009 3:42:59 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Fight the bastards or perish! ~ Jim Robinson ~ Þ)
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To: lewisglad
A church that believes the creator endowed human beings with both conscience and intelligence, to enable us to wrestle with the complicated questions. A church that recognizes that one's relationship with that creator can't be dictated by a central authority, or proscribed by a narrow list of rules.

Complicated questions? God gave a very simple commandment in the Garden of Eden and man failed the test, egged on by Satan, who always tries to use sophistry, like the defenders of abortion. Similarly, the Pharisees and Sadducees tested Jesus with tricky legalistic questions, and Jesus blew them away by saying there were only 2 commandments: Love God, and love man (since man is made in God's image, the 2nd is really a corollary to the first). Primitive tribesmen, medical science, even abortionists all know that what's in the womb is a human being, and killing it is the taking of innocent life. "You shall not commit murder [i.e. take innocent life]." That's a narrow rule, and it didn't come from any church, but from God himself. He knew what He was doing in making it simple, because he knew sinful man would immediately go looking for loopholes. People can always cook up excuses for sinning, which is what Dr. Tiller's defenders are doing.

55 posted on 06/07/2009 3:44:09 PM PDT by hellbender
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To: right way right
The ELCA has trouble.

This can't be good for the already moribund, kinda, sorta, semi-religious social club. I'm sure they're are quite a few members around the country that were none too pleased to discover who one of their fellow parishioners was. Or maybe anybody prone to that reaction left along time ago; explaining the moribund status.

56 posted on 06/07/2009 3:45:14 PM PDT by Minn (Here is a realistic picture of the prophet: ----> ([: {()
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To: lewisglad
"Tiller's church, Reformation Lutheran in Wichita, Kan., is one that trusts its members with the freedom to decide on matters of conscience. It holds that a choice made for good reasons and in good faith does not separate a human being from God."

Because everyone is their own little god.

57 posted on 06/07/2009 3:48:49 PM PDT by TheClintons-STILLAnti-American
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To: woofie
Isnt there something in the bible that says sinners should not go to church?

No there isn't. However, there is 1 Cor. 5 in which Paul handles the issue of the unrepetent sinner in church. "... but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning." 1 Cor. 5:12 (NLT)
58 posted on 06/07/2009 3:50:35 PM PDT by GolfingRam
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To: BykrBayb

Not worse, but illegal and for the time being abortion in legal in this country.

And when abortion is made illegal abortionists and the women who seek abortions will be committing a crime.


59 posted on 06/07/2009 3:51:33 PM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: mrmeangenes
“Perhaps a more pertinent question might be...”

Perhaps you can find some sympathetic columnist arguing in favor of Churches that admonish “a narrow list of rules” in regards to justifying Roeder's murdering act, post that article and your trollish crap would THEN be pertinent to the actual thread at hand. All you looke like is some attention starved toddler trying to change the subjerct in a much incongruous manner.

In the case of Tiller, Christ gave the rules on how to address unrepentant sinners, likewise to Roeder. Any Church embracing those "unrepentants" as well as excusing their actions are deemed damned (Read the first several Ch. of Revelations.

60 posted on 06/07/2009 3:52:38 PM PDT by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: mrmeangenes

Excuse my spelling by the way, idiotic, hypocritical post like yours bring out the worst.


61 posted on 06/07/2009 3:54:15 PM PDT by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: woofie

Absolutely not. The Apostle Paul states the people should examine their conscience before taking Holy Communion, but sinners are welcome in church, where they can hear the saving Word of God.


62 posted on 06/07/2009 3:54:26 PM PDT by GAB-1955 (I write books, love my wife, serve my nation, and believe in the Resurrection.)
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To: GolfingRam; woofie

I suppose it would help clarify the issue if the contextual definition of repentant and the corollary unrepentant were explained here.

If a person goes to a church and engages another member of the church with a positive message for a sin, rather than saying the sin is wrong he is not repentant in the context of the church social structure.

This is important to understand that repentance is not just between God and individual in church social context.


63 posted on 06/07/2009 4:04:52 PM PDT by ResponseAbility (Government tends to never fix the problems it creates in the first place)
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To: trumandogz; mrmeangenes

Right. I don’t think it’s worse. You don’t think it’s worse. But mrmeangenes appears to think it’s worse.

I’m still waiting for a straight answer. I haven’t yet gotten any answer, except from you trumandogz.

If mrmeangenes can’t shed more light on his/her posts, I’ll have to take them at face value, which means mrmeangenes thinks the murder of one abortionist is worse than the murders of 60,000 babies.

If I had posted something that made me appear to believe such a thing, I would welcome the opportunity to correct it. But then, I don’t believe that, so I wouldn’t want anyone to think I do. If mrmeangenes does believe what he/she posted, there is no need for any correction.


64 posted on 06/07/2009 4:05:16 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Fight the bastards or perish! ~ Jim Robinson ~ Þ)
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To: lewisglad; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
"It holds that a choice made for good reasons and in good faith does not separate a human being from God."
No doubt Adolf Hitler and Idi Amin would feel comfortable there.
65 posted on 06/07/2009 4:07:24 PM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: GAB-1955
What to do with the Christian sinner who flaunts and demands approval for the sin? Also who has no problem taking Communion (Like two active homosexuals that a particular Catholic Church gives graciously to because both happen to be loooooaaaaddddeeedddddd) unabashedly?

I know, they "internally" damned themselves while the next generation of youths observe the deviant act and say "I guess there is no sin then if Father so and so keeps giving the flamers Communion". The makings of weak Christianity if you ask me.
66 posted on 06/07/2009 4:07:35 PM PDT by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: BykrBayb; mrmeangenes

The number that everyone seemed to agree on (including Tiller) was 60 THOUSAND dead babies.


67 posted on 06/07/2009 4:07:54 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee; mrmeangenes

Thanks Wagglebee. Les4Life filled me in on that number.

As it stands, mrmeangenes still hasn’t denied the implication in his/her earlier post, suggesting that one abortionist is worth more than 60,000 babies. He/she has continued to post since I asked, so I can only conclude he/she has made a conscious choice to stand by that opinion.


68 posted on 06/07/2009 4:11:52 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Fight the bastards or perish! ~ Jim Robinson ~ Þ)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

I am so glad that I was raised Lutheran many years ago. This man should not have been barred from any church, but I disrespect anyone who did not find another Lutheran Church down the road the minute he showed up. Whatever became of Shunning?


69 posted on 06/07/2009 4:13:01 PM PDT by nkycincinnatikid
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To: lewisglad
Tiller's church synagogue of Satan, Reformation Lutheran in Wichita, Kan., is one that trusts its members with the freedom to decide on matters of conscience any sin they feel like committing. It holds lies that a choice made for good reasons and in good faith sinful behavior does not separate a human being from God.

There - fixed it.

70 posted on 06/07/2009 4:18:38 PM PDT by Jim Noble (Pas d'ennmis a droit)
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To: lewisglad

What kind of church accepts a doctor who performs abortions into its membership?

A greedy church looking for rich doctors who donate big in the basket.


71 posted on 06/07/2009 4:18:42 PM PDT by bikerman (Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.)
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To: lewisglad

Where’s the barf alert? Just askin’. ;-/


72 posted on 06/07/2009 4:18:43 PM PDT by StarCMC (Sometimes you need a Jimmy Carter to get a Ronald Reagan.)
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To: nkycincinnatikid

+1


73 posted on 06/07/2009 4:21:16 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo (FreeRepublic. Monthly Donors Wanted.)
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To: lewisglad
Some call this "relativism," and blame it for a decline in morals and corruption of society. I call it freedom.

This is the false understanding of freedom that is so prevalent today. It stems from the confusion of civil liberty and true, personal liberty.

In a political sense, we are free to promote errors or evils. That doesn't mean that promoting errors or evils is good, but that for the overall good of society, we tolerate the promotion of errors or evils.

On a personal level, the "freedom" to do evil is simply license. A truly free man doesn't succumb to temptations but lives a life of virtue. True freedom is the unhindered ability to do good.

When freedom does not have a purpose, when it does not wish to know anything about the rule of law engraved in the hearts of men and women, when it does not listen to the voice of conscience, it turns against humanity and society.

Pope John Paul II


74 posted on 06/07/2009 4:34:03 PM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: lewisglad
This will give you all an idea of what kind of "church" would embrace a serial killer like Mr Tiller.

http://thephoenix.com/Boston/News/84424-blessing-of-abortion/

75 posted on 06/07/2009 4:34:12 PM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Christian+Veteran=Terrorist)
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To: woofie
Isnt there something in the bible that says sinners should not go to church?

Well, there's definitely something about reproving and exhorting sinners. There doesn't seem to be much of that going on in Tiller's church.

"Hey George, how about not chopping up the little babies today, OK?"

76 posted on 06/07/2009 4:36:35 PM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: xzins

Post-Reformation detritus aka as “Christian Churches”!


77 posted on 06/07/2009 4:38:58 PM PDT by Steelfish
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To: lewisglad
Pinged from Terri Dailies


78 posted on 06/07/2009 4:43:24 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: lewisglad
"What Kind of Church Accepts Dr. George Tiller?"

One that likes his money.

79 posted on 06/07/2009 4:46:46 PM PDT by mass55th (Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway...John Wayne)
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To: rawcatslyentist

Any church could get a BTK killer but not all churches would accept an abortionist. We know that is true because the local LCMS excommunicated Tiller.


80 posted on 06/07/2009 4:47:30 PM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma (I)
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To: BykrBayb

What implication do you see in this ?

“Perhaps a more pertinent question might be: What kind of church embraces and admires Tiller’s murderer ??”

Do you see some “moral equivalence” in that sentence ?
Any declaration that “one abortionist is worth more than 60,000 babies ?

Could it be you see an unwanted mirror ?


81 posted on 06/07/2009 4:47:53 PM PDT by mrmeangenes
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To: lewisglad

“Thou shalt not murder” is one of those “narrow rules” that enlightened people do not follow and enlightened churches do not insist on. The left has completely accepted the ideology of Neitzsche, where self-proclaimed “supermen” are “beyond good and evil” and they create their own morality through their “will to power,” and they exercise this will to power against “lesser” humans. Killing innocent life is something strong people “wrestle with” and finally, because they are supermen, they learn to despise the lives of lesser humans and even rejoice in killing them. These useful idiots have no idea how close they are to thinking like the Nazis.


82 posted on 06/07/2009 4:49:36 PM PDT by Wilhelm Tell (True or False? This is not a tag line.)
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To: woofie
Isnt there something in the bible that says sinners should not go to church?

Then the churches would be empty. There would be no need for the churches.

83 posted on 06/07/2009 4:49:51 PM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma (I)
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To: AUTiger83

Tiller was excommunicated by the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.


84 posted on 06/07/2009 4:53:57 PM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma (I)
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To: AUTiger83
George Tiller should have been excommunicated from the family of believers in an attempt to change his heart back to God.

Bingo. It's in the instructions.

85 posted on 06/07/2009 4:55:02 PM PDT by dasboot
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To: lewisglad

I have emailed the pastor to ask him the obvious question: “How could a church allow a baby killer to usher?”


86 posted on 06/07/2009 4:55:42 PM PDT by Doctor Don
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Comment #87 Removed by Moderator

To: rawcatslyentist

I was traveling into and out of Wichita when they caught the BTK guy. One lady at the plant actually knew him and went to his church.

They had no idea he was that kind of monster.


88 posted on 06/07/2009 5:01:39 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: lewisglad; narses

I can think of plenty of churches that would accept Tiller in the congregation. After all, who among us hasn’t sinned?

Having said that, I think the more pertinent question would be, “What kind of church would endorse Tiller’s beliefs and practices?”


89 posted on 06/07/2009 5:04:23 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley

Tiller had not ‘sinned’: he was ‘sinning’.


90 posted on 06/07/2009 5:05:25 PM PDT by dasboot
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To: lewisglad

This may have already been stated. I’ve not read all the comments yet...

This not the right question. The question should have been “what kind of church allows an abortionist to be a member and an usher”.

All sinners should be welcome, but not all should be members, let alone given ranking.


91 posted on 06/07/2009 5:06:14 PM PDT by Freedom2specul8 (Please pray for our troops.... http://www.americasupportsyou.mil/)
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To: markomalley

I Corinthians 5:

But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”[b]


92 posted on 06/07/2009 5:11:56 PM PDT by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: mvpel; dasboot

Sure am glad I don’t go to either of your churches. I screw up once and *BOOM* — instant shunning.

I prefer God’s mercy, thanks.


93 posted on 06/07/2009 5:19:16 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley

The leader of his church has the obligation to ask him if he endorses the sin of murder in the form of abortion, and if he affirms the sin he is not repentant and should be excommunicated.


94 posted on 06/07/2009 5:19:18 PM PDT by ResponseAbility (Government tends to never fix the problems it creates in the first place)
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To: rawcatslyentist
"What kind of church accepts a doctor who performs abortions into its membership?

A Laodicean Church
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
95 posted on 06/07/2009 5:21:40 PM PDT by Uriel-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: ResponseAbility
The leader of his church has the obligation to ask him if he endorses the sin of murder in the form of abortion, and if he affirms the sin he is not repentant and should be excommunicated.

If he attended my church and was public about it, he would likely not be permitted to receive the sacraments until such time as he repented, nor would he be allowed to exercise any sort of a leadership role (usher, lector, choir, parish council, ccd teacher, cyo coach, etc., etc.), but the only way I could see where he would be utterly shunned would be if he did something directly as a threat to public decency and order within a Mass: for example, if he got up and started cursing the homilist as he preached a pro-life homily, if he tried to steal the Body of Christ during communion, and so on.

96 posted on 06/07/2009 5:23:51 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley

****Sure am glad I don’t go to either of your churches. I screw up once and *BOOM* — instant shunning.****

Do you affirm to them that you screwed up and that you do not endorse the sin? If so you are repentant and do not need to be shunned. Perhaps counseled and/or exhorted if you involved other congregants.


97 posted on 06/07/2009 5:26:36 PM PDT by ResponseAbility (Government tends to never fix the problems it creates in the first place)
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To: BykrBayb

And then don’t forget all the children and grand children on into
eternity never born of those 60,000 killed.


98 posted on 06/07/2009 5:33:29 PM PDT by Lesforlife
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To: markomalley

When I speak of excommunication, I speak of revoking the status of membership in the church... “A formal ecclesiastical censure that deprives a person of the right to belong to a church.”

That is separate from shunning, which is up to the congregants as each situation is unique and may involve complicated interpersonal relationships.


99 posted on 06/07/2009 5:34:53 PM PDT by ResponseAbility (Government tends to never fix the problems it creates in the first place)
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To: mrmeangenes
Perhaps a more pertinent question might be: What kind of church embraces and admires Tiller’s murderer ??

What church is doing that?

And why would it be more pertinent?

How is Roeder's act more heinous than Tiller's slaughter that you think that it's more pertinent to question a church that "embraces and admires" Roeder than a church that "embraces and admires" Tiller?

We're talking one murder of a serial killer verses 60,000 murders BY a serial killer.

What kind of church would embrace and admire Tiller? No church that God is part of, that's for sure.

100 posted on 06/07/2009 5:53:45 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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