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Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists
AFP via Breitbart ^ | June 7, 2009 | N/A

Posted on 06/07/2009 6:05:01 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar

You worry a lot about the environment and do everything you can to reduce your carbon footprint -- the emissions of greenhouse gases that drive dangerous climate change.

So you always prefer to take the train or the bus rather than a plane, and avoid using a car whenever you can, faithful to the belief that this inflicts less harm to the planet.

Well, there could be a nasty surprise in store for you, for taking public transport may not be as green as you automatically think, says a new US study.

SNIP

These are hidden or displaced emissions that ramp up the simple "tailpipe" tally, which is based on how much carbon is spewed out by the fossil fuels used to make a trip.

SNIP

In some circumstances, for instance, it could be more eco-friendly to drive into a city -- even in an SUV, the bete noire of green groups -- rather than take a suburban train. It depends on seat occupancy and the underlying carbon cost of the mode of transport.

"We are encouraging people to look at not the average ranking of modes, because there is a different basket of configurations that determine the outcome," Chester told AFP in a phone interview.

"There's no overall solution that's the same all the time."

The pair give an example of how the use of oil, gas or coal to generate electricity to power trains can skew the picture.

Boston has a metro system with high energy efficiency. The trouble is, 82 percent of the energy to drive it comes from dirty fossil fuels.

By comparison, San Francisco's local railway is less energy-efficient than Boston's. But it turns out to be rather greener, as only 49 percent of the electricity is derived from fossils.

(Excerpt) Read more at breitbart.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Extended News; Government
KEYWORDS: energy; greens; hybrids; scientists

1 posted on 06/07/2009 6:05:02 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: Jet Jaguar

“Captain’s log, Star date......”

(Insert theme music)


2 posted on 06/07/2009 6:06:15 PM PDT by combat_boots ("(We) must ...resist... those who would subjugate others to serve (my) interests." 0bama 6/5/2009)
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To: Jet Jaguar

Hey greenies:

WALK!


3 posted on 06/07/2009 6:06:37 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: combat_boots

One to beam up


4 posted on 06/07/2009 6:08:19 PM PDT by skr (May God confound the enemy)
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To: Jet Jaguar

Wherever you are, just stay there.


5 posted on 06/07/2009 6:08:35 PM PDT by Vince Ferrer
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To: Jet Jaguar
You worry a lot about the environment and do everything you can to reduce your carbon footprint -- the emissions of greenhouse gases that drive dangerous climate change.

They just keep repeating this sort of nonsense hoping that we will eventually just accept their junk science as fact. What they want is the argument to focus on what we are going to do to "save the planet" and not focus on the fact that their basic premise, i.e. that human generated carbon dioxide is affecting the earth's temperature, is just an idea that the UN made up a few decades back.

6 posted on 06/07/2009 6:13:15 PM PDT by InterceptPoint
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To: InterceptPoint

I don’t worry at all about the environment, and I do jack squat to limit my carbon footprint.


7 posted on 06/07/2009 6:18:44 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (We are a ruled people, serfs to the Federal Oligarchy -- and the Tree of Liberty thirsts)
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To: Jet Jaguar

Well Duh! It takes energy to run the trains, and that energy is petroleum or carbon based, who knew?

Not to mention the energy it takes to build these trains and their support lines. Cities spend billions on trains and light rail and they attract crime and homeless and are generally a money drain. Billions lost and billions more to maintain just for some weirdo utopian dream.

The govt. could buy everyone in the serviced area a compact SUV for less than these boondoggles and come out ahead and probably have less of a “carbon footprint”, whatever that means.


8 posted on 06/07/2009 6:18:47 PM PDT by Horusra (The Democrat party is now the National Socialist party (nationalize the banks, socialize healthcare))
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To: Jet Jaguar

No bloody kidding? You mean that folks hide the real costs of public transportation? Insert Claude Raines Casa Blanca still here ->


9 posted on 06/07/2009 6:22:42 PM PDT by jimfree (Freep and ye shall find!)
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To: Jet Jaguar

Our buses have grayed out windows so taxpayers can’t see only one or two people are riding a bus designed for 60. It’s the liberal “feelings about being green” trumping the reality of waste - once again.


10 posted on 06/07/2009 6:27:04 PM PDT by GOPJ (Blacks/Hispanics trump other minorities because they block vote for democrats. UNFAIR.)
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To: GOPJ

Yeah, I’ve suggested using Volkswagen Diesels instead of buses. They get around 50 mpg, take up a lot less space on the highway, and hold four passengers, which is more than the buses usually carry anyway.


11 posted on 06/07/2009 6:31:29 PM PDT by Richard Kimball (We're all criminals. They just haven't figured out what some of us have done yet.)
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To: Jet Jaguar
only 49 percent of the electricity is derived from fossils

Where does the other 51% come from in SF?

12 posted on 06/07/2009 6:38:42 PM PDT by Right Wing Assault ( Obama, you're off the island!)
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To: Right Wing Assault

No clue here.


13 posted on 06/07/2009 6:43:27 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: Horusra
Cities spend billions on trains and light rail and they attract crime and homeless and are generally a money drain. Billions lost and billions more to maintain just for some weirdo utopian dream. The govt. could buy everyone in the serviced area a compact SUV for less than these boondoggles and come out ahead and probably have less of a “carbon footprint”, whatever that means.

True - but would liberals still be able to "feel" that they're sooooooo wonderful without "public transportation"?

14 posted on 06/07/2009 6:46:27 PM PDT by GOPJ (Blacks/Hispanics trump other minorities because they block vote for democrats. UNFAIR.)
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To: GOPJ

One problem is that mass transport was designed for a very different lifestyle than we have today. It worked fine when families lived in a city or close in suburb, and the man went to work in the urban center from 9 to 5, and the wife stayed home and did all of the family errands and child care within a few blocks of home.

Not a whole lot of people work 9 to 5 and commute without any need to make a stop on the way to or fro. Gov’t workers come closer than anyone else -


15 posted on 06/07/2009 6:56:15 PM PDT by speekinout
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To: speekinout
"Not a whole lot of people work 9 to 5 and commute without any need to make a stop on the way to or fro. Gov’t workers come closer than anyone else -"

Apart from the quite generous 9 to 5 estimate on how long a government worker can sustain rational thought...where do they differ from anyone else in distance traveled or errands en route?

16 posted on 06/07/2009 7:03:22 PM PDT by norton
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To: speekinout
One problem is that mass transport was designed for a very different lifestyle than we have today.

You're saying we have a public transportation system designed for a typical town in 1955?

We're keeping a dysfunctional antiquated system so liberal politicians can feel good about themselves? On our dime? Is that it?

17 posted on 06/07/2009 7:20:39 PM PDT by GOPJ (Blacks/Hispanics trump other minorities because they block vote for democrats. UNFAIR.)
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To: Jet Jaguar
The greenest choice is usually indicated by the unsubsidized price. That's because the price of something is related to how much total energy was consumed producing it. As a rule of thumb, the fares collected by public transportation projects only cover about 10% of the total cost. A $3 10-mile bus ride really costs $30, however the government could never charge that much so they get the balance from taxing us other ways. Based on the total cost, public transport in the suburbs is not green compared to a private automobile at all.
18 posted on 06/07/2009 7:21:19 PM PDT by Reeses (Leftism is powered by the evil force of envy.)
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To: Richard Kimball
Volkswagen Diesels instead of buses. They get around 50 mpg, take up a lot less space on the highway, and hold four passengers, which is more than the buses usually carry anyway.

People might ride in them - and being more flexible - they could have more and closer "stops". Then again, some will have a hard time getting over the thrill of seeing a vehicle getting 3 mpg hauling around one old person and a kid with a bike.

19 posted on 06/07/2009 7:24:35 PM PDT by GOPJ (Blacks/Hispanics trump other minorities because they block vote for democrats. UNFAIR.)
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To: Horusra

If everyone that currently rides public transport into major cities like Chicago and Boston drove instead, the additional vehicles would a) lock up traffic so that emissions would skyrocket as people spent far too much time either driving very slowly or simply sat still and b) have nowhere to park.


20 posted on 06/07/2009 7:25:39 PM PDT by RonF
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To: RonF

In Denever, if everyone who rodes the train bought a car and drove, and the space used to build the light rail was changed to traffic lanes, congestion would go down by 20%.

So would taxes.


21 posted on 06/07/2009 7:42:58 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (Overproduction, one of the top five worries for the American farmer.)
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To: Jet Jaguar

“But it turns out to be rather greener, as only 49 percent of the electricity [in San Francisco] is derived from fossils.”

I don’t know for sure what the other 51% comes from, but the only thing I know that isn’t a fossil fuel and can contribute a significant amount of power is nuclear.

Nuclear, the ultimate greem energy source! That would just drive leftists crazy if they would ever acknowlege it.


22 posted on 06/07/2009 8:20:35 PM PDT by Gil4
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To: norton

OK, that was an unfair dig at gov’t workers. But they are more likely to have regular hours and to work in large facilities than many of the rest of us.


23 posted on 06/07/2009 8:28:33 PM PDT by speekinout
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To: Jet Jaguar

“Hey greenies:

WALK!”

No. Actually walking uses more energy per mile (and thus creates more carbon) than driving - due to the added food one must eat.

So, drive.


24 posted on 06/07/2009 8:28:43 PM PDT by BobL (Drop a comment: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2180357/posts)
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To: InterceptPoint; ClearCase_guy
You worry a lot about the environment and do everything you can to reduce your carbon footprint -- the emissions of greenhouse gases that drive dangerous climate change.

I do, most noteably: I cut down my number of trips to the landfill by acquiring a burn barrel for my garbage.

On earth day, I bought myself a brand-new chainsaw to cut down trees to make firewood for heating my house.

I bought a 3/4 ton work truck for house chores, which requires making fewer trips than using my SUV.


25 posted on 06/07/2009 8:30:47 PM PDT by proud_yank (Socialism - An Answer In Search Of A Question For Over 100 Years)
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To: GOPJ
You're saying we have a public transportation system designed for a typical town in 1955?

We're keeping a dysfunctional antiquated system so liberal politicians can feel good about themselves? On our dime? Is that it?

Well, yes, that. But they do have a solution - we can spend zillions building "new towns" that will re-create the 1950's. Those suburban houses probably aren't green anyway, so abandoning them will improve the climate even more.

26 posted on 06/07/2009 8:35:23 PM PDT by speekinout
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To: Balding_Eagle

Converting the light rail lanes to traffic lanes would help people get downtown but wouldn’t do anything to help traffic on the city streets themselves once people got off of the expressway. And it wouldn’t address the issue of parking.


27 posted on 06/07/2009 8:50:26 PM PDT by RonF
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To: Right Wing Assault
only 49 percent of the electricity is derived from fossils

Where does the other 51% come from in SF?

Gay Discotheques.

28 posted on 06/07/2009 9:04:10 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The Last Boy Scout)
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To: proud_yank

That’s the spirit!


29 posted on 06/08/2009 3:31:50 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (We are a ruled people, serfs to the Federal Oligarchy -- and the Tree of Liberty thirsts)
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To: proud_yank

My wife and I planted flowers in the front that absorb CO2. I brought them home in my Envoy SUV with the 5.3 V8.


30 posted on 06/08/2009 3:35:07 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Hey GOP follow Dick Cheney's lead)
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To: RonF
but wouldn’t do anything to help traffic on the city streets themselves once people got off of the expressway. And it wouldn’t address the issue of parking.

Nonsense. The driver can always pick the light rail station nearest his destination, there's always lots of room, park there, and hike the rest of the way, just as though he arrived on the train.

31 posted on 06/08/2009 1:32:29 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (Overproduction, one of the top five worries for the American farmer.)
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To: Right Wing Assault
Where does the other 51% come from in SF?

Hydro-electric - Primarily from Hetch-Hetchy.

32 posted on 06/08/2009 1:39:19 PM PDT by CA Conservative
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To: CA Conservative

Thanks. I never heard that name so I looked it up and see the the enviros want to remove the dam. And probably all hydro dams. That would mean SF would have to do with 1/2 the energy is uses now. I’m sure these guys would not want to use evil carbon-based energy.


33 posted on 06/08/2009 1:44:00 PM PDT by Right Wing Assault ( Obama, you're off the island!)
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To: Balding_Eagle
The driver can always pick the light rail station nearest his destination, there's always lots of room, park there, and hike the rest of the way, just as though he arrived on the train.

Well, I don't know how it works in Denver, but in Chicago the light rail stations in Chicago don't HAVE parking. Why would you need it if you came into town on the rail? One look at the train schedules shows you that there are far fewer trains going counter-flow (out of the city in the morning and into the city at evening). The system is set up to get people into Chicago in the morning and out of it at night. The commuter train terminii in Chicago are downtown surrounded by office buildings and there's no where to park that isn't already taken up by people who drove into town.

34 posted on 06/08/2009 8:05:26 PM PDT by RonF
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