Posted on 06/30/2009 9:32:47 AM PDT by wbones8765
What might the phrase “natural-born citizen” of the United States imply under the U.S. Constitution? The phrase has always been obscure due to the lack of any single authoritative source to confer in order to understand the condition of citizenship the phrase recognizes. Learning what the phrase might have meant following the Declaration of Independence, and the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, requires detective work. As with all detective work, eliminating the usual suspects from the beginning goes a long way in quickly solving a case.
What Natural-Born Citizen Could Not Mean
Could a natural-born citizen simply mean citizenship due to place of birth?
Unlikely in the strict sense because we know one can be native born and yet not a native born citizen of this country prior to the year 1866. There were even disputes whether anyone born within the District of Columbia or in the territories were born citizens of the United States (they were generally referred to as “inhabitants” instead.) National Government could make no “territorial allegiance” demands within the several States because as Madison explained it, the “powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.”
Jurisdiction over citizenship via birth within the several States was part of the “ordinary course of affairs” of the States that only local laws could affect. Early acts of Naturalization recognized the individual State Legislatures as the only authority who could make anyone a citizen of a State. Framer James Wilson said, “a citizen of the United States is he, who is a citizen of at least some one state in the Union.”
(Excerpt) Read more at federalistblog.us ...
Ping
If you are born in Kenya you are a natural born US citizen.That’s what I’ve been told.
lol
I would also point out, which I didn't then, that we still used the phrase natural-born the way the Framers did when we speak of, for example, a natural-born athlete. Such a person is not merely an athlete, but one whose athleticism is in his genes.
ML/NJ
Jus Soli (by right of the soil) citizen ship is based on location of birth.
Jus Sanguinis (by right of the blood) is based on being born of a citizen parent (or parents).
Although I, personally, favor the most narrow of definitions for 'natural born citizen' for the purposes of holding what is arguably the most powerful/dangerous office on earth: Born on US soil, both parents US citizens, raised on US soil, and never having any hint of divided loyalties (dual citizenship, being under the employ of a foreign government, serving in a foreign army, etc), the Founding Fathers specifically allowed a child born overseas of two American parents (or was that with an American citizen father?) stationed overseas on federal business would be counted as a 'natural born citizen'.
That 1790 law was superseded by the 1795 law that drops any reference to 'natural born'.
We haven't had a clear legal definition since.
It's time to change that.
I guess it could also mean that your not eligible to be POTUS if you were born via C-Section.
Thats what you get when you start re-defining terms.
Was that from wikepedia?
I guess you might need to do some reasearch before you comment.
“The constitutional requirement for the President of the United States to be a natural-born citizen had one purpose according to St. George Tucker:
###
That provision in the constitution which requires that the president shall be a native-born citizen (unless he were a citizen of the United States when the constitution was adopted,) is a happy means of security against foreign influence, which, wherever it is capable of being exerted, is to he dreaded more than the plague.
The admission of foreigners into our councils, consequently, cannot be too much guarded against; their total exclusion from a station to which foreign nations have been accustomed to, attach ideas of sovereign power, sacredness of character, and hereditary right, is a measure of the most consummate policy and wisdom. …
The title of king, prince, emperor, or czar, without the smallest addition to his powers, would have rendered him a member of the fraternity of crowned heads: their common cause has more than once threatened the desolation of Europe.
To have added a member to this sacred family in America, would have invited and perpetuated among us all the evils of Pandora’s Box.”
No. Although I have been known to look at Wiki, I did the due diligence and examined the full text of the 1790 and 1795 laws personally.
There are something like 9000 posts on ‘the long thread’ and scores of other birth certificate threads.
In point of fact, no one outside of a private agency (FactCheck) wholly funded by an 0bama employer (The Annenberg Foundation) has ever even claimed to have seen a paper document.
The 0bama camp has spent about $1,000,000.00 to avoid showing a document that can be obtained from the State of Hawai’i for $10.
Surely you understood the point I was making... PLEASE!
Existing law states that for citizenship to be conveyed to a child that one or both of the parents have to have been a citizen residing in the U.S. for at least 5 years past the age of 14.
Here is what the State Dept says:
"Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock: A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) INA provided the citizen parent was physically present in the U.S. for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.
He clearly stated himself numerous times that his mother was only 18 when he was born, so as far as I'm concerned Pres__ent with no ID 0bama is not now nor was he ever a natural born citizen. That is why he refuses to pay the $20 plus postage to provide his vault copy of his long form birth certificate as well as his college transcripts and other documents.
Refresh my memory here?
How many Czars do we have this week?
Birther ping.
Hah ..
When our copnstitution was written some of the words had a slightly different meaning than today. When dealing with the constitution you have to look at them in that context. There is another comment that takes the definition back to 1583. The state department is not the Supreme Court. Laws can be challenged and are regularly.
These guys terrify me, it's a totally anti-Constitutional consolidation of de facto legislative powers into the executive branch. Law of the land by fiat, with no debate, no vote, and no voter oversight.
Besides, if you keep calling someone a Czar, pretty soon they start thinking they really are a Czar, and acting accordingly.
The founding Fathers used Blackwell as a guide, not a straightjacket.
I like you do not feel that he is the president, for the simple fact, he is not a natural BORN NOT NATIVE of the US. You are looking at by birth. I AM the constitutional question of what defines that natural born status.
They seem to be totally extra-Constitutional and unaccountable now.
“Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock”
How could Stanley Ann and Barack Sr have been “IN WEDLOCK”??
Barack Sr was already married and the father of 2 when he first came to the USA.
IF he and Stanley Ann “got married” it would be bigamy, and therefore not recognised.
Has anyone come forward and shown proof they were ever married? Is there record of their “divorce”?
If bigamy was involved, I am under the impression that an ‘anullment’ would be the legal document.
Me: Army Hospital Korea, 1962 - Both parents: American Citizens, I am a Natural Born Citizen, right?????/Just Asking - seoul62......
Refresh my memory here?
How many Czars do we have this week?”
Another Czar got appointed this week- Sec of Interior appointed one of his deputies——the new WATER CZAR of CALIFORNIA!!!
Doesn’t the state of Kalifornia have any states rights any more???
Water is a serious issue here in the west. The old saying here is: “Whiskey is for drinking! Water is for fighting over”.
This may seem a strange question, but I believe it is the real "test" to nationality.
If I'm an American, why would I be supporting Mexico in soccer, or If I were a Brit, why would I be supporting Pakistan in Cricket?
Of course nationality and "Citizenship" have morphed into one, which has helped dilute the issue.
Which makes us all citizens of the world :-)
Yes, same exemption as John McCain.
bfl
The law you cited only deals with someone born abroad. The 14th Amendment governs when someone is born in the US- other than a few exceptions (such as children of diplomats), anyone born within the US is a natural born citizen.
The law you cited was meant to deal with a situation where only one parent was a citizen, but they did not spend any significant time living in the US.
Yes. Anyone born to two American citizens is a NBC. Location of birth is irrelevant in that situation.
Plus, I have a real Birth Certificate to prove it!!!!!!!/Just Asking - seoul62......
Thank you, Domo Arigato./Just Asking - seoul62.......
Plus I think you got brownie points for being born in a US Army hospital to real American parents. I am assuming that one parent was in the Army?
According to this article, Obama would NOT be a natural born citizen since it’s well documented that his father was a Kenyan (British colony).....
Excerpt from this article:
“A person who had been born under a double allegiance cannot be said to be a natural-born citizen of the United States because such status is not recognized (only in fiction of law). A child born to an American mother and alien father could be said to be a citizen of the United States by some affirmative act of law but never entitled to be a natural-born citizen because through laws of nature the child inherits the condition of their father.”
That actually doesn't make a difference. Embassies and military bases aren't US territory- that's mostly an urban myth. Rather, they're places where the host country has agreed, by treaty, to let the US exercise its jurisdiction. Imagine a situation where a pregnant German woman went into labor on a US base in that country and was rushed to the base hospital because the delivery was imminent. Unless the father was a US citizen, that child would not be a US citizen under any circumstance.
BELOW are FIVE such attempts to re-define NBC since 2001 (SIX attempts, if you include Leahy's Resolution for McCain in Mar/Apr 2008):
109th CONGRESS
1st Session H. J. RES. 15 Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to make eligible for the Office of President a person who is not a natural born citizen of the United States but has been a United States citizen for at least 20 years.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
February 1, 2005 Mr. ROHRABACHER introduced the following joint resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
JOINT RESOLUTION Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to make eligible for the Office of President a person who is not a natural born citizen of the United States but has been a United States citizen for at least 20 years.
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several states within seven years after the date of its submission for ratification:
`Article --
`A person who is a citizen of the United States, who has been a citizen of the United States for at least 20 years, and who is otherwise eligible to hold the Office of the President, is not ineligible to hold that Office by reason of not being a native born citizen of the United States.'.
108th CONGRESS
2d Session S. 2128 To define the term `natural born Citizen' as used in the Constitution of the United States to establish eligibility for the Office of President.
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
February 25, 2004 Mr. NICKLES (for himself, Ms. LANDRIEU, and Mr. INHOFE) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
A BILL To define the term `natural born Citizen' as used in the Constitution of the United States to establish eligibility for the Office of President.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Natural Born Citizen Act'.
SEC. 2. DEFINITION OF `NATURAL BORN CITIZEN' .
(a) IN GENERAL- Congress finds and declares that the term `natural born Citizen' in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the Constitution of the United States means--
(1) any person born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof; and
(2) any person born outside the United States--
(A) who derives citizenship at birth from a United States citizen parent or parents pursuant to an Act of Congress; or
(B) who is adopted by 18 years of age by a United States citizen parent or parents who are otherwise eligible to transmit citizenship to a biological child pursuant to an Act of Congress.
(b) UNITED STATES- In this section, the term `United States', when used in a geographic sense, means the several States of the United States and the District of Columbia.
108th CONGRESS
2d Session H. J. RES. 104 Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to make eligible for the Office of President a person who is not a natural born citizen of the United States but has been a United States citizen for at least 20 years.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
September 15, 2004 Mr. ROHRABACHER introduced the following joint resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
JOINT RESOLUTION Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to make eligible for the Office of President a person who is not a natural born citizen of the United States but has been a United States citizen for at least 20 years.
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years after the date of its submission for ratification:
`Article --
`A person who is a citizen of the United States, who has been a citizen of the United States for at least 20 years, and who is otherwise eligible to hold the Office of the President, is not ineligible to hold that Office by reason of not being a native born citizen of the United States.'.
107th CONGRESS
1st Session H. J. RES. 47 Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to make eligible for the Office of President a person who has been a United States citizen for twenty years.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
May 2, 2001 Mr. FRANK (for himself and Mr. HOEKSTRA) introduced the following joint resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
JOINT RESOLUTION Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to make eligible for the Office of President a person who has been a United States citizen for twenty years.
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years after the date of its submission for ratification:
`Article--
`A person who is a citizen of the United States, who has been for twenty years a citizen of the United States, and who is otherwise eligible to the Office of President, is not ineligible to that Office by reason of not being a natural born citizen of the United States.'.
In the SIXTH bill since 2001, the one for McCain (not included above), which was co-sponsored by Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL), Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY), Sen. Robert Menendez (D-NJ), and Sen. Thomas Coburn (R-OK) -- they refer to an Immigration Act, most likely the rescinded 1790 Immigration Act when they say, "To clarify the law and ensure that children born to United States citizens while serving overseas in the military are eligible to become President."
110th CONGRESS
2d Session S. 2678 To clarify the law and ensure that children born to United States citizens while serving overseas in the military are eligible to become President.
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
February 28, 2008 Mrs. MCCASKILL introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
A BILL To clarify the law and ensure that children born to United States citizens while serving overseas in the military are eligible to become President.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Children of Military Families Natural Born Citizen Act'.
SEC. 2. DEFINITION OF `NATURAL BORN CITIZEN' .
Congress finds and declares that the term `natural born Citizen' in article II, section 1, clause 5 of the Constitution of the United States shall include: `Any person born to any citizen of the United States while serving in the active or reserve components of the United States Armed Forces'.
That's simply an unsourced opinion. Your status as an American citizen is in no way based on the laws of other countries. If you agree with this argument, then you are letting other countries override our laws. We have no control whether another country considers an American to also be a citizen of that country.
A child born to an American mother and alien father could be said to be a citizen of the United States by some affirmative act of law but never entitled to be a natural-born citizen because through laws of nature the child inherits the condition of their father.”
AFAIK, US law overrides some nebulous concept of "laws of nature" and there is nothing in US law that disqualifies a dual citizen from the Presidency.
According to our Constitution, Obama must be a natural born citizen to serve as President. Born in Kenya would not meet this criteria, nor would changing to Indonesian citizenship as a child to school in Indonesia. WHEN will we see his original birth certificate? WHERE was he born in Hawaii if he weren’t born in Kenya?
My Father was in the United States Army, My Mother was Japanese who received her citizenship, a year before I was born./Just Asking - seoul62.....
In 1962 I was sitting in a classroom on a US military base, being told that you, along with a substantial number of my Marine and Navy Brat classmates, are not Constitutionally qualified to be the president.
The "real" answer is (cue eerie creepy voice) no. one. knows...
Source please?
The McCaskill bill never made it to law, it's only a 'sense of the senate'.
Let's side step into an alternate universe for a second.
Do you seriously think that the same people who when they lost insisted that the election was stolen, he was selected, not elected, he's not my president, etc. would have passively gone along with having a foreign born RINO in the White House?
We'd never hear the end of it!
Nope. If anyone in power really believed that Claire McCaskill wouldn't have felt compelled to introduce a bill to green-light McCain.
(And friends of 0bama wouldn't have felt the need to try to expand that to include 'any descendent of anyone who served in the US military').
Of course.
Born in Kenya would not meet this criteria,
From what I've read, that's probably correct, given the fact that his father was not a US citizen and his mom may have been too young to pass on citizenship under the law at the time (but I could be wrong).
nor would changing to Indonesian citizenship as a child to school in Indonesia.
You can't "change" your American citizenship without approval from the US. Whether or not he was a citizen of Indonesia can't change his NBC status.
WHEN will we see his original birth certificate?
Never, unless hbe is ordered to present it by a court of competent jurisdiction, or unless some state requires such evidence for him to get on its ballot in 2012.
WHERE was he born in Hawaii if he weren’t born in Kenya?
A hospital in Honululu, AFAIK.
Yeah. A bastard. A politician who's a bastard? HORRORS!!!
Nobody cares, as long as he's an AMERICAN bastard.
Hebrews 7:3
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
I can't speak as to what McCaskill though he was doing with that bill.
In the first place it wasn't a bill, it was a non-binding resolution - S.Res.511. In the second place, the resolution got the circumstances of McCain's birth wrong - he wasn't born on a military base - so it's basically worthless. It's saying McCain is eligible because of circumstances he didn't meet.
And yet it hasn't helped you one bit, since you ignore all the counter arguments to your statement.
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