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Sutherlin man who shot intruder (inside home) sentenced to 19 months
nrtoday.com ^ | 8/8/2009 | Staff

Posted on 08/08/2009 5:03:01 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA

Smith walked in through the unlocked door and was unbuckling his pants and taking off his shoes when Cramer's wife, Christy, found the man, Stoll said. Smith then laid down on the couch and went to sleep, she said.

Christy Cramer went into the master bedroom with her daughter and locked the door. The pair then left the house through a back door in the bedroom, Stoll said.

Christy Cramer picked her husband up at the nearby bar and took him home. All three entered the home but could not get into the bedroom where guns were located because the door was locked from the inside, so Christy Cramer and the young girl went to the car and called police, Stoll said.

Meanwhile, Cramer went around the outside of the house to the back door, grabbed a gun and re-entered the living room, Stoll said. Cramer woke a sleeping Smith with the butt of his gun and a verbal argument ensued, she said. At some point, Smith reached toward Cramer, Stoll said.

“We don't know if he was reaching at the gun or at his shoes, which were over there too,” she said.

Cramer said he believed Smith was reaching for the gun and shot the man in the chest, Stoll said. Smith never left the couch, she said.

“He was totally and completely on the couch,” Stoll said. “His feet were up. He was only able to get up on an elbow.”

Cramer had said early on that he was acting in self-defense when he shot Smith. Stoll said the law does not allow people to use deadly force, even in their own homes, unless the intruder is committing a felony. The state believed Smith's only crime was trespassing, which is not a felony, Stoll said.

(Excerpt) Read more at nrtoday.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; US: Oregon
KEYWORDS: banglist; oregon
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1 posted on 08/08/2009 5:03:01 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA
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To: Red in Blue PA

Good grief. Where is Sutherlin?


2 posted on 08/08/2009 5:07:10 AM PDT by FreeSouthernAmerican (If Only To Be Left To Live My Own Life)
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To: FreeSouthernAmerican

Ah, saw Douglas County. Colorado right?


3 posted on 08/08/2009 5:08:08 AM PDT by FreeSouthernAmerican (If Only To Be Left To Live My Own Life)
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To: FreeSouthernAmerican

Looks like Oregon.


4 posted on 08/08/2009 5:08:46 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA (If guns cause crime, then all of mine are defective!)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Article could be leaving things out. But as it stands, it sounds like murder.


5 posted on 08/08/2009 5:09:47 AM PDT by Talisker (When you find a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be damn sure it didn't get there on it's own.)
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To: Red in Blue PA

The guy deserves prison time. This was not an act of self-defense or even defending his property. Probably, just some drunk wandered into the wrong house and fell asleep. Should have just waited for police. There was no eminent threat.


6 posted on 08/08/2009 5:10:41 AM PDT by Always Right (The Brown Shirt Media © is coming!)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Ah, looked up Douglas County. Seems like every state has a Douglas County. Sounds like Oregon though.


7 posted on 08/08/2009 5:12:31 AM PDT by FreeSouthernAmerican (If Only To Be Left To Live My Own Life)
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To: Talisker
Stoll said the law does not allow people to use deadly force, even in their own homes, unless the intruder is committing a felony.

Agree, but using the line above, if two thugs kick in your door with guns in their hands and are just standing there, they have not yet committed a felony per se, so it is not okay to shoot them under the law they are citing?
8 posted on 08/08/2009 5:12:40 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA (If guns cause crime, then all of mine are defective!)
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To: Red in Blue PA

unlocked door + alcohol + firearm = tragedy. Old, sad story.


9 posted on 08/08/2009 5:13:30 AM PDT by tgusa (Gun control: deep breath, sight alignment, squeeze the trigger ....)
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To: Red in Blue PA
The Peoples Republic of Oregon.
10 posted on 08/08/2009 5:15:31 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Nemo me impune lacessit The law will be followed, dammit!)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Kicking in the door would equal a felony to me.


11 posted on 08/08/2009 5:15:35 AM PDT by tgusa (Gun control: deep breath, sight alignment, squeeze the trigger ....)
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To: tgusa

Agree, but under the law is that a felony? I do not believe it is.


12 posted on 08/08/2009 5:16:06 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA (If guns cause crime, then all of mine are defective!)
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To: Talisker
No it looks like homicide.
13 posted on 08/08/2009 5:16:34 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Nemo me impune lacessit The law will be followed, dammit!)
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To: tgusa

Not enough info here for me.


14 posted on 08/08/2009 5:17:16 AM PDT by Venturer
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To: Red in Blue PA

Oregon.

IIRC, Sutherlin is down near Eugene.


15 posted on 08/08/2009 5:17:39 AM PDT by djf (The "racism" spiel is a crutch, those who unashamedly lean on it, cripples!)
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To: Red in Blue PA

It would certainly infer fear of harm/a threat to the homeowner. No jury would convict. Well, maybe 0’s fed jury would.


16 posted on 08/08/2009 5:18:49 AM PDT by tgusa (Gun control: deep breath, sight alignment, squeeze the trigger ....)
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To: Venturer

True.


17 posted on 08/08/2009 5:19:30 AM PDT by tgusa (Gun control: deep breath, sight alignment, squeeze the trigger ....)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Correct. A police officer told me once that under that scenario he would shoot them anyway, then drag the corpses inside the door! What can I say — that’s Oregon.


18 posted on 08/08/2009 5:28:22 AM PDT by SatinDoll (NO Foreign Nationals as our President!!)
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To: Red in Blue PA
From the real estate ads this appears to be in Oregon.
19 posted on 08/08/2009 5:29:47 AM PDT by Condor51 (The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits)
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To: Always Right; tgusa; mad_as_he$$; Talisker

Looks like the verdict is in. When Freepers are saying the gunowner screwed up, that’s when the gunowner should have taken a class to know what his Rights and the law allow him to do.

It’s nice to say a person lives in such a nice neighborhood locking their doors isn’t necessary. That may be true about the neighborhood, but lock those doors anyway.


20 posted on 08/08/2009 5:39:32 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA /Patron - TSRA- IDPA)
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To: Red in Blue PA

I fail to see how they could find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Had a stranger walked into my house while my wife and kids were there, I’d be on edge. I imagine this guy was. And once the intruder made a move, it could easily be taken as agressive. Either he had a weak attorney, or the state had a really good one.


21 posted on 08/08/2009 5:49:45 AM PDT by al_c (Our government is not a spectator sport.)
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To: Red in Blue PA
Christy Cramer went into the master bedroom with her daughter and locked the door. The pair then left the house through a back door in the bedroom, Stoll said.

Christy Cramer picked her husband up at the nearby bar and took him home. All three entered the home but could not get into the bedroom where guns were located because the door was locked from the inside, so Christy Cramer and the young girl went to the car and called police, Stoll said.

The woman and daughter escape the house, safe and sound, just to go to the bar to pick up her husband and return to the house instead of calling the cops. Not too smart. There's more to the story than meets the eye. The Cramers were looking for blood.

22 posted on 08/08/2009 6:00:21 AM PDT by varon (Allegiance to the constitution, always. Allegiance to a political party, never.)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Kicking in your door with guns in hand would allow you to shoot them though...it is reasonable to fear for your life in that scenario.


23 posted on 08/08/2009 6:01:37 AM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: varon

Yep, they were all out of the house and safe already.


24 posted on 08/08/2009 6:02:46 AM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: SatinDoll

Cops say things like that, but cops would get away with it. Besides, I think if they’re armed and *awake* and have broken your door down it’s a different story.


25 posted on 08/08/2009 6:03:37 AM PDT by PLMerite (Speak Truth to Stupid.)
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To: al_c

Or the gunowner did everything wrong. Probably the most damning piece of evidence the state had was the victim’s feet still laying on the couch.

On edge of not, it’s to be expected that someone defending their property has to do everything right. The gun is to save your life but your actions have to save you from financial ruin. The class for a Texas CCW license is a minimum of eight hours long. That’s eight hours or more of learning the Texas criminal code.

There was an article in an IDPA magazine where the sponsors rigged up a stage where not a single shot was to be fired. It was a blind stage where the competitors had no idea what to expect and the range safety officers created the stage with nothing but hostage targets.


26 posted on 08/08/2009 6:08:59 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA /Patron - TSRA- IDPA)
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To: al_c

Part of the problem is they left the house so no one was in danger. At that point you call police and let them shoot the guy. No sense re-entering the house and putting yourself at risk..


27 posted on 08/08/2009 6:13:15 AM PDT by visualops (portraits.artlife.us or visit my freeper page)
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To: SatinDoll

A cop tells you he would tamper with evidence and he would spend the rest of his career trying to throw you in jail if he suspected you of doing the same.


28 posted on 08/08/2009 6:14:48 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA /Patron - TSRA- IDPA)
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To: visualops

Good point.


29 posted on 08/08/2009 6:22:37 AM PDT by al_c (Our government is not a spectator sport.)
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To: Red in Blue PA

if two thugs kick in your door with guns in their hands and are just standing there,

Breaking and entering is a felony!


30 posted on 08/08/2009 6:25:52 AM PDT by chainsaw (If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free! -- P.J..)
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To: Red in Blue PA

The homeowner was wrong 10 percent no if an’s or but’s about it.

The wife and child had removed themselves from danger when they left this house, so there was no threat to them.

She should have called the police and waited for them.

GUILTY AS HECK.


31 posted on 08/08/2009 6:28:05 AM PDT by stockpirate ("The time for talking is past, now is the time for taking action." Barack Obama 2008)
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To: Red in Blue PA
Some guys keep firearms because they are afraid someone will try to break into their home. Some guys keep firearms because they are hoping someone will try to break into their home.
32 posted on 08/08/2009 6:43:15 AM PDT by Pilsner
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To: al_c

“Had a stranger walked into my house while my wife and kids were there, I’d be on edge.”

Except the family LEFT the house and called the cops. NO ONE was in any danger.

You don’t re-enter your home with a gun and shoot someone sleeping on your couch and walk away free.


33 posted on 08/08/2009 6:51:31 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Red in Blue PA

The homeowner should have done the SMART thing—grab a kitchen knife, put it in the guy’s hand and claim self-defense. Law abiding citizens are at the mercy of their leftist masters in states like Oregon. It’s time those citizens learned how to defend themselves from the REAL criminals—their elected officials.


34 posted on 08/08/2009 7:02:04 AM PDT by Oldpuppymax (AGENDA OF THE LEFT EXPOSED)
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To: al_c

I agree. Anyone inside my house is out to do harm to me and mine. There’s a huge difference between a stranger, drunk or not, on your front lawn and one on your living room couch. You don’t know if he’s just waiting with a gun hidden under the cushion to blow you and your family away.


35 posted on 08/08/2009 7:21:36 AM PDT by bgill (The evidence simply does not support the official position of the Obama administration)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Too bad he wasn’t in Texas!


36 posted on 08/08/2009 7:37:27 AM PDT by BnBlFlag (Deo Vindice/Semper Fidelis "Ya gotta saddle up your boys; Ya gotta draw a hard line")
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To: Red in Blue PA

According to the article, the defendant’s attorney was confident he could get an acquittal if the case went to a jury, but the defendant insisted on pleading guilty to a reduced charge.


37 posted on 08/08/2009 7:43:33 AM PDT by behzinlea
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To: Red in Blue PA

Guilty. You, the homeowner, retreat from danger, only the cops can advance with deadly force.

In NC he would have gotten a tougher sentence.


38 posted on 08/08/2009 7:59:44 AM PDT by TC Rider (The United States Constitution - 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: Oldpuppymax
The homeowner should have done the SMART thing

To cover the DUMB thing? Tampering with evidence is even a DUMBER thing.

39 posted on 08/08/2009 8:10:26 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA /Patron - TSRA- IDPA)
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To: bgill

Then you grab your gun, call for reinforcements and wait behind hard cover.

If the wife had any brains, she should have left the house with the daughter, called the police from her cellphone and let her old man finish his drink at the bar.


40 posted on 08/08/2009 8:16:43 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA /Patron - TSRA- IDPA)
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To: Red in Blue PA
The wife and child got out of the home safely. The hubby was in the bar...so the house was empty except for the intruder sleeping on the sofa. I am a big proponent of the right to defend yourself inside your home...but this was definitely a time to call the police and wait for them to do their job. There was no reason for the hubby to go in the house and confront the sleeping intruder.

The moral of the story is...don't get drunk enough that you wander into a strange home, take off your pants, and fall asleep on the sofa. And, don't get drunk enough that you think you think you have the right to shoot someone sleeping on your sofa, when you should sit down at a cafe, have a cup of coffee with you family, and wait for the cops to remove a sleeping intruder. If either or both men had not been drinking, odds are they would have used better judgment.

I have no sympathy for either of them.

41 posted on 08/08/2009 8:30:20 AM PDT by goldfinch
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To: Shooter 2.5

Yeah, the story didn’t make any sense with the wife wandering around in the house while the guy was getting settled for his nap.


42 posted on 08/08/2009 8:35:36 AM PDT by bgill (The evidence simply does not support the official position of the Obama administration)
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To: Red in Blue PA

He should have gone to a jury trial, he would have had a good chance of at least a hung jury. As others have stated, kicking in a door is a felony nomatter what state you are in.

I don’t waste my time mourning the loss of a home invader, and I certainly would not vote to convict someone who shot one. Drunk or not, that is what the intruder was, even if he did fall asleep on the couch.


43 posted on 08/08/2009 9:02:18 AM PDT by Dayman (My 1919a4 is named Charlotte. When I light her up she has the voice of an angel.)
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To: Always Right

It is very clear that if the wife and daughter were able to escape, they were able to call the police. Instead they went and got dad FROM THE BAR to kill the guy. This was plain stupid.


44 posted on 08/08/2009 9:15:47 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: Dayman
The state believed Smith's only crime was trespassing, which is not a felony, Stoll said.

Since the drunk intruder did not kick in any door. He wandered through an unlocked door. Moral of the story is deadly force is a last resort. Having your doors locked should be the first.

45 posted on 08/08/2009 9:37:55 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA /Patron - TSRA- IDPA)
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To: TC Rider
Guilty. You, the homeowner, retreat from danger, only the cops can advance with deadly force.

No so in a growing number of states, which are recognizing that innocents have no duty to retreat when they're where they have a right to be. I'd bet Oregon's not one of those states, so you're probably right if that's what you meant.

46 posted on 08/08/2009 12:42:12 PM PDT by Still Thinking (If ignorance is bliss, liberals must be ecstatic!)
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To: Oldpuppymax

yep, falsifying a crime scene, (and that act WILL BE discovered), especially a crime scene where lethal force was used, real smart.


47 posted on 08/08/2009 2:34:32 PM PDT by bobby.223
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To: Red in Blue PA
1) Who is this Stoll who "said" so much?
2) Was this person present at the time of the shooting?
3) If not, why are we reading about 19 months in the crowbar motel?

Regards,
GtG

48 posted on 08/08/2009 4:59:52 PM PDT by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: tgusa

This happened to me when I was a teenager. I woke up about 7 AM and went to the kitchen to get something for breakfast. When I entered the kitchen I got a strange feeling, and I looked into the living room and saw a strange man sleeping on my sofa. I ran into the bedroom and got out my 22lr rifle. When I went into the living room I could tell that the man was drunk. I used the rifle to poke him and he woke up, and you should have seen the look on his eyes when he saw my rifle pointed at him. He said that he was looking for Sam, which is my dad’s name. He also told me that he was sorry for falling asleep on my sofa. I told him that he was lucky that I had not shot him yet and to get the hell out of my home. I never saw that man again.

The point is that I was very scared when this happened, and I would have shot this man in self defense if he made even the slightest aggressive move toward me. I would have probably found the home owner not guilty.


49 posted on 08/08/2009 6:54:49 PM PDT by Do the math (Doug)
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To: mad_as_he$$
No it looks like homicide.

Homicide is killing in general, murder is killing with malicious intent. The perp was laying on the couch, shoes off, feet up, defenseless. The homeowner went back in, got a gun, and stood over him with it.

No doubt some angry words were exchanged. But the dead perp was found with his feet still up. So I have a hard time understanding how that shooting could be self-defense, or even accidental.

50 posted on 08/08/2009 7:12:22 PM PDT by Talisker (When you find a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be damn sure it didn't get there on it's own.)
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