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Fresh fight looms over immigration
Washington Times ^ | Aug. 18, 2009 | Stephen Dinan

Posted on 08/18/2009 9:02:54 AM PDT by AuntB

With President Obama putting off the immigration reform debate until next year, immigrant rights groups are pushing the administration to suspend tough enforcement practices so illegal immigrants aren't punished under the current system.......rights groups have begun to use words such as "betrayal" in describing how they feel they are faring under the Obama administration...

Those who favor a crackdown on illegal immigration say Mr. Obama has made it tougher for authorities to act by putting restrictions on raids and by rewriting the rules on those 287(g) agreements with local police.

But immigrant rights groups say the president is still expanding the local law enforcement program and complain that his embrace of e-verify will create problems for legal as well as illegal residents.

Earlier this month, Mr. Obama did win praise from immigrant rights advocates when his administration said it would impose new rules governing treatment of illegal immigrants who are being detained.

In Mexico last week, Mr. Obama said those principles still stand.

He also blasted what he called "demagogues out there who try to suggest that any form of pathway for legalization for those who are already in the United States is unacceptable."

However, Rep. Steve King, Iowa Republican, said Mr. Obama's remarks mean the majority of Americans are "demagogues" because polls show that a majority "support enforcement of our immigration laws and oppose amnesty."

"American workers are depending on this administration to protect their jobs from those in America illegally by enforcing immigration laws and opposing amnesty," Mr. King said. "Instead, President Obama is determined to ram a comprehensive amnesty bill through Congress against the wishes of the majority of the American people."

But immigrant rights groups say a legal crackdown will only anger Hispanic and immigrant voters, who were expecting legalization from Mr. Obama ...

(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 111th; agenda; aliens; amnesty; bhocira; bhoillegals; immigrantlist; immigration; reform
Mike Cutler forward this article with these comments:

Hi Gang:

The news article I have attached below appears in today's edition of the Washington Times and is important for a number of reasons.

First of all, while I greatly respect the work that the reporter who wrote the news article, Stephen Dinan, has done in covering immigration and other important issues, I have to disagree with his use of the term "Immigrants Rights Groups" to describe those who are seeking a massive amnesty program for unknown millions of illegal aliens whose identities, backgrounds, affiliations, intentions and even arrival information are unknown and unknowable.

As I have often noted, the difference between an immigrant and an illegal alien is comparable to the difference between a houseguest and a burglar.

I know that all too often those who advocate for open borders and massive amnesty programs are referred to as being advocates for "immigrant rights." However a massive amnesty program for virtually all of the illegal aliens who are currently present in our country and God only knows how many more would flood our nation if such an amnesty was enacted, claiming fraudulently to have been residing in our country for the requisite period of time in order to claim to be eligible to participate in such a fatally flawed program would do far more harm to true immigrants and their families than you could imagine.

The clear objective for most of the advocates of amnesty is to get as many people into our country who could be exploited for monetary gain and political power.

In point of fact, if the amnesty of 1986 did anything, it should have provided our nation with a series of lessons that make it clear that amnesty is absolutely the wrong way to go!

The point is that once an alien is granted lawful status he (she) will do what any sensible person would do- demand prevailing wages and reasonable working conditions.

This is what happened in the wake of the amnesty of 1986. The unscrupulous employers simply fired their newly legalized employees and hired the next massive wave of illegal aliens, among whom are those who would file for amnesty if our Congress betrays our citizens and enacts such legislation.

Meanwhile, the administration is already ordering ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) special agents to do everything possible to not arrest illegal aliens when they investigate employers who intentionally hire illegal aliens. According to Janet Napolitano, the Secretary of Homeland Security, ICE is focused on arresting aliens who have been convicted of committing felonies.

Fraud in the immigration benefits program goes all but unchecked and illegal aliens in general have little to fear right now.

I can tell you from my many years of experience at the former INS, nearly half of my career working cooperatively with other agencies such as the FBI, DEA, ATF state and local police as well as police departments of other nations in conducting investigations of aliens involved in narcotics trafficking and related crimes, that generally the most likely victim of ethnic organized crime organizations are members of the same ethnic community.

The Latino gangs generally do the greatest harm to the Latino community, Asian gangs do the greatest harm in the Asian communities, etc., etc.

Yet the so-called "Immigrant Rights Groups" clearly do not care about the murders, rapes and assaults being committed in the immigrant communities by aliens who have lawful right to be in our country!

I have never heard of any representatives of these groups demanding to know why when aliens lawfully immigrate to the United States or even enter illegally, that law enforcement does not aggressively pursue the violent transnational criminals that victimize these people.

It is important to focus on the fact that illegal aliens involved in criminal activities in our country are "transnationals." Here is why I want you to consider the term "transnational."

All too often, when criminal aliens commit a crime and are being sought by law enforcement authorities in our country, they know that they can always head for their native country and evade law enforcement in the United States. Access to multiple foreign countries provide the bad guys with a figurative "escape hatch" where they can simply leave the United States after they commit a serious crime.

This actually give illegal alien criminals an advantage not enjoyed by American criminals and they make good use of this advantage.

Additionally, the huge numbers of workers that immigration- both legal and illegal brings to our nation, drives down wages and emboldens employers to treat bottom rung employees, including lawful immigrants and United States citizens deplorably! Labor is a commodity, and as the case with any commodity, if you increase the supply of the commodity, the most fundamental principle of economics kicks in. The value of that commodity decreases. This means wages are reduced and employers could care less if their employees quit- there will always be a readily available supply of cheap labor waiting in line to replace any worker who quits or is fired!

This brings us back to the term "Immigrant Rights."

This raises the obvious question, "Exactly rights are they referring to?"

Are they suggesting that these immigrants have the right to be subjugated by unscrupulous employers? That these immigrants have the right to be assaulted and intimidated? Perhaps the leaders of the "Immigrant Rights{ organizations are eager for these immigrants to be extorted in a slightly newer version of the "protection" racket organized crime made famous a generation ago.

Meanwhile the lawful immigrants and United States citizens come from every ethnic group imaginable. Our nation is anything by homogenous. Among the Americans who are losing their jobs and their share of the "American dream" are members of every ethnic group in our country.

Additionally, the 9/11 Commission detailed its findings in its report that clearly shows that our nation's flawed immigration system enabled the terrorists to not only enter our country but to embed themselves in our country in communities all over the United States.

Today according to the DHS some 230 cities inside the United States, many of which are thousands of miles from the Mexican border, are infested by members of the pernicious Mexican drug cartels. Other cities are similarly infested by other narcotics trafficking organization and organized crime groups in general, whose leaders and many of their members are citizens of countries all over the globe.

Because of the international reach of these violent thugs, members of the immigrant community are often coerced by these criminals to not cooperate with law enforcement authorities and to even cooperate with them in their nefarious activities- threatening to take reprisals against family members who are still living in the country from which the immigrant came.

It is unconscionable that this yet another issue is never addressed by so-called "pro-immigrant" organizations. These folks know damned well that these threats are often used by the various ethnic gangs and that this is not limited to just Latino gangs but is used by every gang from every foreign country and ethnicity.

1 posted on 08/18/2009 9:02:54 AM PDT by AuntB
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To: AuntB
With President Obama putting off the immigration reform debate until next year, immigrant rights groups are pushing the administration to suspend tough enforcement practices so illegal immigrants aren't punished under the current system

What tough enforcement?
2 posted on 08/18/2009 9:06:03 AM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax, you earn it, you keep it! FairTaxNation.com)
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To: All

Hmmmm, the economy is in trouble, and barry wants to fight for illegal immigrants and gay marriage?
I approve....


3 posted on 08/18/2009 9:06:25 AM PDT by Maverick68 (w)
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To: Man50D

Here we go again.


4 posted on 08/18/2009 9:09:36 AM PDT by Sig Sauer P220 (Forget going Galt. Its time to go Braveheart.)
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To: Sig Sauer P220

Is he really this DUMB? I can’t WAIT to see the town hall meetings on THIS issue, even in (white and black) Democratic congressional districts!


5 posted on 08/18/2009 9:10:26 AM PDT by Clemenza (Remember our Korean War Veterans)
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To: AuntB

I should think union membership would be against illegals aliens. However, union “leadership” would be FOR illegals because thats new union dues coming in to squander and spend on themselves and the demoncrat party.


6 posted on 08/18/2009 9:11:28 AM PDT by Sig Sauer P220 (Forget going Galt. Its time to go Braveheart.)
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To: Sig Sauer P220

We need to be ready to fight this just as hard as the Obamacare bill.


7 posted on 08/18/2009 9:11:53 AM PDT by maeng ( b)
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To: Clemenza
If Obama thinks he is catching hell on health care wait until he tries to 'reform' immigration!

The healthcare townhalls will look like prayer meetings by comparison.

Bozo exists in a Democrat power vacuum. He needs those illegal votes more than ever.......... now that he flopped on healthcare.

He made a HUGE mistake w/ Senora Soto---polluting our USSC with an avowed Third World racist.

Americans will not tolerate another amnesty move.

The last two amnesty flops left lawmakers with tire tracks on their backs. This time they are looking at political quicksand.

8 posted on 08/18/2009 9:14:40 AM PDT by Liz (When people fear govt, we have tyranny; when govt fears the people, we have freedom.)
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To: AuntB
Obama blasted amnesty opponents as "demagogues..........

There he goes again.

Name-calling is a GREAT way to go.

Look at what it did for healthcare reform (snicker).

9 posted on 08/18/2009 9:19:05 AM PDT by Liz (When people fear govt, we have tyranny; when govt fears the people, we have freedom.)
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To: AuntB
Good piece by Cutler, Aunt B. Sadly for us, it contains too much truth for our "elected ones" to swallow, so they ignore the law of the land and ignore us.

Any Rep or Senator who votes for any amnesty or more freebies for illegal aliens needs to be "UNELECTED" at our first opportunity, no matter which party that person belongs to.

10 posted on 08/18/2009 9:19:10 AM PDT by janetgreen ( SICK OF TRAITOROUS POLITICIANS)
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To: Liz
You cannot do to this country what he is doing unintentionally.
11 posted on 08/18/2009 9:19:35 AM PDT by lakertaker (Democratic Party Economic plan: Declare all those who hate higher taxes as unpatriotic)
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To: Man50D
As I've written elsewhere, this is the ace-up-the-sleev that has encouraged their condescension towards the Americans speaking out.

Their plan is to grant amnesty (AND THE VOTE) to app. 10-20 million people, easily enough to replace the independents, moderates and more conservative Dems that voted this admin in.

12 posted on 08/18/2009 9:20:29 AM PDT by Ghost of Philip Marlowe (I want all communists to fail.)
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To: Clemenza
Is he really this DUMB?

I gotta believe he's just trying to create turmoil.

13 posted on 08/18/2009 9:22:06 AM PDT by gundog (And a babe shall lead them. -Sarah 20:12)
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To: Sig Sauer P220
This is EXACTLY the reason 0 needs to be taken out of the game or put in the penalty box. Fighting him on every bad legislations means we will lose one or more. He must be neutralized.
14 posted on 08/18/2009 9:25:06 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Nemo me impune lacessit The law will be followed, dammit!)
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To: Sig Sauer P220

This is a diversion article planted in the news as ZeroCare and Orly Taitz so the Dims can push thru death panel legislation and government controlled health care and have even more money to wiz away................


15 posted on 08/18/2009 9:26:01 AM PDT by RSmithOpt (Liberalism: Highway to Hell)
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To: AuntB

“suspend tough enforcement practices”

Other than an occasional show raid at a chicken processing plant, I was not aware there was ANY enforcement.

Who knew?


16 posted on 08/18/2009 9:27:08 AM PDT by SharpRightTurn (White, black, and red all over--America's affirmative action, metrosexual president.)
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To: AuntB

WHY IS IT......IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR......

IF YOU CROSS THE US BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET A DRIVERS LICENSE, SOCIAL SECURITY CARD, FREE HEALTH CARE and ACORN makes sure you can vote in the next election?

WHO’S BRIGHT IDEA WAS THIS??????
(Americans must be stupid)
No, but their legislators are!


17 posted on 08/18/2009 9:32:19 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (Does 0b0z0 have any friends, who aren't traitors, spies, tax cheats and criminals?)
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To: lakertaker; Ghost of Philip Marlowe; stephenjohnbanker; maggief; Condor51
You cannot do to this country what he is doing unintentionally.

The sequence of events tells us a lot about Obama's nefarious intentions.

Americans need to be very vigilant: Obama and his loathsome COS staff Rahm Emanuel are very calculated in their use of power. As dissent among the populace grows, they are capable of plotting staged events to boost their advantage.

CITIZEN ALERT Obama/Rahm are purposefully antagonizing large groups in middle America, goading us into civil unrest. This would give these America haters an excuse to declare Martial Law (a complete suspension of civil rights).

And if vigilant Americans tell Obama to stuff amnesty (as they did ObamaCare), the suspension of civil rights will be mobilized.

NOTE WELL Americans for Limited Government President Bill Wilson reports: "We now know for a fact Napolitano's DHS is monitoring political speech and thought------and groups and individuals who oppose abortion, immigration, gun-control."

Wilson concluded: "DHS' response to our FOIA request unfortunately confirms in no uncertain terms that their hunt for 'rightwing extremists' was nothing more than a witch hunt."

"Not a single study or report was from any government source...there was no evidence of any actual active recruitment of 'disgruntled veterans'...no evidence showing that folks who purchase guns or oppose gun-control legislation are necessarily dangerous..."

DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano falsely maintained that they were on the lookout for "criminal and terrorist activity" but did not monitor ideology or political beliefs."

======================================

COMMENTS "Monitoring," my Aunt Tilly--- the government was conducting surveillance on Americans and intended to use the power of gov't to restrict Americans' Constitional freedoms.....and Obama okayed this atrocity against Americans....................the intended consequences of that trillion dollar TARP, nationalizing banks and auto industries and passing themselves that stimuli campaign slush fund. And they call conservatives Nazis and racists.

With what they've already accomplished no wonder BamaCare was mass production for the Obama/Rham/Zeke "magic end of life pill."


18 posted on 08/18/2009 9:33:38 AM PDT by Liz (When people fear govt, we have tyranny; when govt fears the people, we have freedom.)
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To: Sig Sauer P220
Expand your vision. Obviously there are several times as many potential union members already in the United States as there are illegal aliens here, or who might come here.

If union bosses need more dues, then all they have to do is bother to "organize" currently unorganized labor, and don't tell me that can't be done. Millions of very dissatisfied high tech workers find themselves working for companies that are less than a year from the next contract negotiation with the government or larger firms, and I guarantee they can be unionized.

So, what could interest the union bosses about more illegal aliens rather than good, solid, unionization?

How about cheaper whores and more lawncare specialists? ~ well, maybe a cook for the family ~ she can sleep in the utility closet.

The union bosses are that base.

19 posted on 08/18/2009 9:34:46 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Man50D

to those people,any enforcement is too tough.


20 posted on 08/18/2009 9:40:03 AM PDT by wiggen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WayzmX0WQvg)
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To: All
The Obama admin, DHS' Napolitano are willing dupes of Third World governemnts----dutifully reciting latino agit-prop. Obama's treacherous plan to award US citizenship to illegals is a con game. Illegals are dual citizens, and swear allegiance to their home countries. THEY INTEND TO RETURN THERE----AFTER THEY DRAIN THE US TREASURY. Illegals on US soil are dual citizens who swear allegiance---first and foremost---to their home countries. We need to see Obama, Rahm, and Janet's emails and cell phone records to determine when they get their orders from Third World governments.

==================================

The frauds just keep on a-coming.....thanks to the conniving Mexican government. Cong TOM TANCREDO relates his conversation with Juan Hernandez (Hernandez was McC's Hispanic outreach rep). Hernandez is a dual citizen and headed the Mexican govt's **Ministry of Mexicans Living in the United States. ** Hernandez said the purpose of the Mexican govt agency was:

(1) to increase the flow of Mexican nationals to the US to serve Mexico’s needs;

(2) to increase transfers of $50 billion a year (30% of the Mexican GDP);

(3) to alleviate Mexican social instability, and,

(4) to get free training for Mexicans who are expected to repatriate the skills (paid for by US citizens) back to Mexico.

Hernandez supports amnesty. Hernandez told Tancredo: "By populating the US with millions of Hispanics who are tied economically, politically and linguistically to Mexico, we are able to exert enormous influence and pressure on U.S. policy and its dealings with Mexico."

SOURCE http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33894

========================================

The US provides Mexico with the nuclear umberalla that is paid for by us, the taxpayers. Mexico has no welfare safety nets, health insurance, and no Social Security system. Illegals have homes in Mexico, bank accounts, and are getting rich on on the US govt gravy train. Their low-pay jobs are fronts to pocket several $3500 EITC refunds with phony ID's and several SS #'s. Plus multiple welfare checks, UI, Workmen's Comp, not to mention free schooling, food stamps, etc.

Illegals here get paid under the table, don't pay taxes and send $50 billion US dollars back to their decrepit, moth-eaten countries. They are a huge drain on US resources.

The money is gained from illegal employment....and for all we know....from SS fraud, drug deals, tax evasion, ID theft, and other criminal activities.

QUESTION Who in these foreign countries is getting a cut of illegals' $50 billion transmissions? Is Calderone on the list? Western Union may be laundering and illegally converting criminal proceeds to pesos. It would be easy for the US government to trace monies from the point of departure at Western Union to determine whether WU is aiding in the hiding and conversion and transmission of the invaders illegal cash to legitimate funds (a crime)............and who, on the other end, is receiving the monies.

All international WU money transfers need to be filtered and siezed as necessary to discern the money trail from the invaders on US soil, to Mexico, and Central and So/American governments.

21 posted on 08/18/2009 9:48:04 AM PDT by Liz (When people fear govt, we have tyranny; when govt fears the people, we have freedom.)
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To: AuntB

Stimulus and clean up illegals all at once.
Take some of the unspent stimulus money and offer $1,000 a head for turning in illegals. Turn in a family of 5 and you’ve got 5k. make it exempt from taxes too. Proof of citizenship required to collect.
Illegals may turn themselves in for free relocation back to country of origin.
Think about it. a force of snitches like the whitehouse wants.
Getting money into citizens hands for real work,work that needs to be done today.
Help solve States budget crises as all the free stuff they give away now would not have to be spent on illegals. Very much like save or create jobs,you’d be saving or creating income for the states!
If my math is correct and one assumes 20mm illegals,it would pump 20b sorely neeed dollars back into the economy!.


22 posted on 08/18/2009 9:48:34 AM PDT by wiggen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WayzmX0WQvg)
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To: AuntB

One would think that kids and minorities would be most against amnesty and a refusal to enforce our citizenship/residency laws.They’re the ones who have to compete with the “undocumented workers” in the job market.


23 posted on 08/18/2009 9:49:52 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Christian+Veteran=Terrorist)
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To: AuntB
The author argues that it is the immigrants' own ethnic group which is most adversely affected by the crimes and burdens imposed on American society by illegal immigrants. My question is, how much traction does such an argument gain in the Hispanic voting block? In other words, are rank-and-file Hispanics open to the argument that their basic interests are harmed and not aided by an influx of illegal compatriots?

This argument is important because Hispanics might well prove to be the one demographic that swings the next two elections. I note that arguments made to African-Americans that the plantation economy erected around the ghetto should earn their strongest rejection at the polls, falls on absolutely deaf ears. There is absolutely no traction for the argument that the Jesse Jacksons and other race pimps do not advance the cause of the African American but only exploit them as any overseer of the most brutal delta cotton plantation might have done.

Black race pimps and thuggish union leaders are not motivated to improve the lot of their constituents but to improve the census and thus increase their power with the Democrat establishment. How will the Hispanic leaders behave?


24 posted on 08/18/2009 9:54:00 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: AuntB

Obama seems drawn to losing programs as if he is tilting at windmills. Not a good sign for the future, his or ours.


25 posted on 08/18/2009 10:46:48 AM PDT by texmexis best (uency)
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To: Liz
'But immigrant rights groups say a legal crackdown will only anger Hispanic and immigrant voters, who were expecting legalization from Mr. Obama ...'
Awwwww, that just breaks my friggen heart! Those poor ILLEGAL voters may have been lied to. Who'd a thunk it.


*** CITIZEN ALERT Obama/Rahm are purposefully antagonizing large groups in middle America, goading us into civil unrest. This would give these America haters an excuse to declare Martial Law (a complete suspension of civil rights). ****

Yep I believe they are.

Reichsführer-USA Rahm 'Heinrich Himmler' Emanuel would just looooooooove to be able to declare Martial Law. errr, I mean Obama would ;-) And the same for Oberstgruppenführer Eric Holder. He's just itching at the chance to unleash the full power of his DoJ on the American citizenry. But if they did that, these Townhall Meetings would look like a Girl Scout Bake Sale.

The 'civil unrest' they used to justify Martial Law would quickly escalate into the American Revolution ver 2.0. And there aren't enough Kool-Aid drinking JBTs with a Federal Badge to quell the 'ruckus' Americans who want their country back would make.

And when under said Martial Law the Feds attempted to confiscate American's weapons ... that would last about two days, or until the word got out. 80,000,000 lawful gun owners will not go peacefully into the night.

(Who are the Militia? 'WE' are the Militia!)

26 posted on 08/18/2009 11:01:32 AM PDT by Condor51 (The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits)
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To: Condor51
.......immigrant rights groups say a legal crackdown will only anger Hispanic and immigrant voters, who were expecting legalization from Mr. Obama ..........

Awwwww, that just breaks my friggen heart! Those poor ILLEGAL voters may have been lied to.

(Sob) The God's honest truth is that I'm all broke up about it myself (bawl).

27 posted on 08/18/2009 11:54:15 AM PDT by Liz (When people fear govt, we have tyranny; when govt fears the people, we have freedom.)
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To: AuntB

WE gotta tie illegal entry (i don’t call it illegal immigration) to the healthcare reform bill ...

As it stands now, illegals would be covered and WOULD NOT have to pay into the system, as I understand it ...


28 posted on 08/18/2009 12:05:04 PM PDT by Lmo56
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To: Condor51
Heinrich Emanuel, and Obamafuhrer would looooooooove to be able to declare Martial Law.......... and der Holder is just itching to unleash the full power of the DoJ on the American citizenry.........

Ach der lieber. Der "Acorn Civilian Security Force" ees comin' to march us to reeducation camps.

Board the boxcars at midnight, liebchen.

29 posted on 08/18/2009 12:15:24 PM PDT by Liz (When people fear govt, we have tyranny; when govt fears the people, we have freedom.)
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To: Lmo56

“As it stands now, illegals would be covered and WOULD NOT have to pay into the system, as I understand it ...”

Not only that, but the rest of us would be ‘fined’ per our tax return...(this bill involves the IRS like nothing I’ve seen before)....if we were not enrolled in their ‘approved’ plan.
This won’t touch the illegal, they’re usin’ someone else’s SS# and they will continue to use our ER rooms for primary care...’cause we can’t turn ‘em away...why would they bother to sign up and go through all the hassle? And if this amnesty gets through, as Mexico deteriorates, we ain’t seen nothing.

Heller (R) introduced an amendment, which the Dem majority voted down, to specifically exclude aliens.


30 posted on 08/18/2009 12:30:50 PM PDT by AuntB (Tired of D & R globalist power brokers? How 'bout HEARTLAND AMERICA PARTY? It's a state of mind!)
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To: nathanbedford
How will the Hispanic leaders behave?

none I've seen when it comes to amnesty behave any different than blacks do over identity issues.....and that goes for media types too except very comely Julie Banderas whom that wanker (P)Rick Sanchez called a traitor to her race (half Bogotana lass)

identity runs deep for anyone allowed to

31 posted on 08/19/2009 1:12:54 AM PDT by wardaddy (Kite Runner....good movie.)
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To: LucyT

As I posted to you,,,

“Amnesty” is tied to O’Bammy’s “DeathKare” plan ,,,

I think the libs just over-extended...;0)


32 posted on 08/19/2009 1:36:15 AM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: wardaddy
Fox(y).


33 posted on 08/19/2009 1:58:42 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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