Posted on 09/02/2009 5:30:46 PM PDT by Globalist Goon
Watch Congressman Pete Stark blow up when Jan Helfeld asks him why Stark believes, "the more we owe, the wealthier we are."
We’re about at the logical end of the road on this deal...
Next steps are going to be pretty bold intrusions into people’s private lives, and corresponding reductions in freedom.
Buckle up ;)
“The Dollars that create our wealth come into existence in a very special way. ....Get rid of the debt and you get rid of the wealth.”
I’m not an economic expert - but what is barter if not an exchange of “wealth” outside government debt? If so, then in a sense a nation’s “wealth” exists outside of the government’s debt.
Hmmm... Not sure I understand exactly what you are trying to say, but each Dollar that we use as a uniform medium of exchange in this country was created out of thin air by a transaction between the Federal Reserve and the US Treasury.
In a sense (and in reality), on a balance sheet somewhere there exists a debit (or our Nation’s debt) offset by a credit (a dollar). The government and the private sector then use this Dollar as a medium of exchange or barter.
Under our current banking system, if we were to pay off the Federal Reserve with our Dollars to get rid of this debt, then we would have no more Dollars.
We do pay interest on this service to the Federal Reserve, essentially and almost permanently enslaving us to this banking system, slowly draining the wealth created in this Nation by the productive actions of its citizens...
I agree the excrement will hit the fan in the future but I don’t think enough people really understand the danger we face. We might be able to maintain this illusion for a few more years or even a decade but the end is certain as long as we keep the entitlements.
As a poster above stated..... people buy debt with an expectation that the return will be a profit over inflation. I am not an economist but it appears to me this is a certain disaster and the only way out of it will be to kill the programs. I don’t see either party doing this any time soon. The entitlements will eventually dwarf all other debt in our nation.
Anyone else think our economy will enter an endless cycle that will eventually destroy our dollar? I know some think it will be deflation. I still think it will be inflation when they cannot sell debt. I think they will print endless money to prop up the entitlements. Either way, we are screwed.
I am very angry for my children who will suffer the most for the sins of those who came before them. This is not what America stands for is it?
And hence why the Founding Fathers and others repeatedly warned us of the perils of the central banking concept (along with fiat currency and fractional lending)...
We are about to pay a steep price for failing to heed their warnings. So steep that we may lose the very Freedoms that separated this Nation from all others before it.
It’s more than the entitlements, it’s the very foundation and core of the financial system that needs replacing. Entitlements are enabled by the system.
The problem is generational no matter which direction it heads - either we will ween people off the teat of the government and begin production in earnest, or we will collapse into a Nation of servants to a powerful few.
I’m just saying that with barter you theoretically don’t need any currency. But as a practical matter currency is necessary because transmitting information has been so inefficient.
However, as bartering systems get more and more sophisticated and information needed to match barterers becomes more available more quickly I can see a time where the need for currency becomes much less. Hopefully, the role of the gov’t and the Fed becomes less needed as well.
Maybe I misunderstood the discussion but with direct barter it seems that a nation’s wealth is actually greater than the sum of its currency issued. The gov’t requires barter exchanges to report the transactions at what it deems “fair market price” or in terms of currency. It the transaction is not reported to the gov’t the value of the transaction is not part of the “balance sheet” you mention.
Can anybody tell me who elected this idiot to the House, so I can extend my "congratulations" to his District!
"Congratulations" dictionary delivered upon request!
I don’t disagree it’s the whole system. I just wrote this on the thread about Who’s rooting for the economy to tank again. It was in response to a bit of a different question but related to your point.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2330870/posts
__________
It is the immediate movement of money that is the focus instead of the long term creation of wealth. Instead of low inflation - steady growth that benefits everyone our investment system seems geared towards bubbles. It can be a short term bubble or a long term bubble like tech stocks or real estate. They are all still bubbles and a small number of people can make big money at the expense of those not in the game.
Even our government runs like this now. It’s all about the four year cycle of elections is’nt it? It does not fit well with what I learned in school decades ago.... the principle of interest and long term growth. If you are connected and in the game you can make big money. If you are just the average Joe like me with a 401k you have to pray the bubble is inflated when you retire. You can’t make much on interest at the bank anymore when interest rates are so low because of inflation.
Those on the inside get rich (like Congress, bankers (including the Fed), and the other money changers and brokers on Wall Street. Those of us who play by the rules and think long term are left to luck. Just ask someone who had to retire recently compared to someone who retired at the top of the bubbles.
______________
However, in terms of our public debt (gov’t) I firmly believe the entitlements are beyond our comprehension. I think social security and medicaid/medicare will wreck us because they are absolutely tied to our currency when the government can print money to continue to prop up the unsustainable. As I said on the other thread, there are a small number of people who benefit at the expense of the rest of us. I agree that we have a very flawed system at almost every level.
We constantly (and rightly so) debate the waste of millions and billions in our government but the entitlements are trillions. That was my point.... on a ledger sheet it’s all very small and insignificant in comparison to the monsters that I believe will destroy the dollar.
Thanks for your thoughts. I am trying hard to educate myself so that I can do what I can to protect my family and prepare for the future. Like everyone else, I have opinions, but I know that I have much to learn.
True barter would be best, maybe for local economies and more of a community approach than our present system, but the problem is you want some way to value a bottle of beer in Atlanta nearly the same as Seattle.
A uniform currency makes it all happen. If that currency is tied to productive output only, then growth is controlled by the ability to increase production. Our currency has a different set of controls, though, and the whim of the politician seems to be taking the lead as the reason we are seeing such outrageous debt.
I see what you are saying now... I think currency as we know it (dollars and such) will eventually turn into fluctuating “credits” in a system of complex barter. You can keep track of your credits in any manner of electronic storage and retrieval, but others will have access to your credits and therefore direct control over many facets of your life regardless of your will.
Your idea presupposes a positive outcome for Freedom and a reasonable central leadership. I wish I could share that view, but I think we are going to learn a hard, and possibly crippling lesson in the US.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply...
I think that the entitlements are just as you say - essentially incomprehensible presently. The multiplier “trillion” is new financial territory for the economy, and having maybe one hundred trillion in future liabilities is so unbelievable as to be laughable...
The only solution I see is wiping out the dollar as we know it, a National “bankruptcy” that clears debts and allows the show to go on. Same story, but we - the private individuals in this country - will still be saddled with the crushing debt.
I sincerely hope that they do not do this, either inadvertently or on purpose.
The only solution I see is wiping out the dollar as we know it, a National “bankruptcy” that clears debts and allows the show to go on.
________
I agree with you and I hesitate to say this because I have never been a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theory guy.
This potentially brings us to one world currency.
The ultimate goal of many progressives and globalist might be the only solution to our problem...... a world currency to replace the dollar. The more debt we sell to foreigners the more power we give to them to dictate what we do when this collapses, right?
If one world currency happens can one world government be far behind? If they can control money they control everything. The ultimate goal of the progressive elite... the same people who derailed us from our constitution with the very programs that bankrupt us.
I am thinking the tinfoil hat might fit me after all. There is no logic to what we are doing right now but if you think in decades vs years (like everyone is focused on) it leads to what some of them have already said they want.
Is this all chance or is this the crisis that precipitates a new constitution when we abandoned our old one? I wish I knew the answer to that question.
Just as third worlds countries print tremendous amounts of money it does not make them more wealthy.
As I said originally, I just don’t feel like arguing about this with someone. Things are what they are... Mr. Stark was making the point that our debt is representative of the wealth in this Nation. He is correct in the sense that the debt is used to create the monetary supply, and his logic is more debt = more money = more wealth. Several posts ago I pointed out what he failed to mention.
In addition, there are other indicators of the “wealth” of any Nation. Neither the questioner or Mr. Stark attempted to address these other indicators.
The questioner attempted to pin him in the corner by badgering him and not recognizing where Mr. Stark was exactly correct about our monetary system. Had he given Mr. Stark credit for his factual statements and then used those statements to inquire about the mechanisms of inflation and deflation and how they come about under our system, or better yet why our system was not tied to production or a fixed measure as specified in the Constitution, then I think he would have been much more effective...
I wish I knew, as well. I’m not sure it is a conspiracy so much as merely a consequence of the path chosen.
I’ll tell you this much, if we see another market turn-down this fall, especially one similar to last year, China and others are probably going to win the fight for a new reserve currency on the global market. That’s really the next step and unfortunately, whether on purpose or through oversight, we have given several countries the ability to manipulate our market to force the issue of a new currency.
Sad, really...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.