Skip to comments.How Can Glenn Beck Be Right on So Much and Yet Still Believe the book of Mormon? (serious question)
Posted on 10/26/2009 7:51:02 AM PDT by Scythian
I'm a huge Beck fan, in fact I'm listening right now here
but something really confuses me. It takes the ability to use real critical thinking to know what Beck (and most of us know about the state of the country and where we are heading). That is, we have the ability to discover the truth no matter how much the media or conventional wisdom try to hide it. Yet on Mormonism, Beck is cleary wrong. Any Christian knows that the book or momonism is severely flawed and that Joseph Smith was no prophet. How can Beck cut through all the chaff of what is going on in our world and come to the truth and yet believe the writings of Joseph Smith? It doesn't make sense? I'm not saying he's up to something secret, not by any means, it's just that he's so right about so many things and completely wrong on the most important thing. Now, he just said on the air that he believes Jesus is the Savior of the world and that he is Mormon.
I also think that because he is Mormon he is not attacked near as much if he was a Evangelical Bible only believer. Anyway, am I nutz or does Beck being a Mormon seem bizarre?
Get me a Jew and I will say it! It’s pretty well documented. Do you want sources?
The relationship of exaltation as becoming god belongs solely to the LDS.
As far as the rest, God stated he was the one and only.
The fact that people wanted to drag their old pagan and other gods along for the ride into Christianity was dismissed early on. Indeed such erroneous teachings was what inspired Constantine to bring together the Christian leadership at Nicea.
The Jews also dismissed such cultural and primitive artifacts of their religion thousands of years ago as the nature of God and his laws were better understood.
Furthermore those who use henotheism to explain the concept of God and Christ being different persons have been forced to ignore the very plain relationship made evident in the the OT and NT that in the beginning was the Word and the word WAS God and that when Christ came he was the Word made flesh. No indication of any separation there. The Word did not make Christ, the word WAS Christ.
However I do appreciate your honesty, you have been the first to not avoid the issue.
I agree that LDS make a larger emphasis on Exaltation/Theosis by making it more universal, but it is not unique to them. I maybe mistaken about Greek Orthodox, but in terms of Theosis and Eastern Christology, it is a doctrine and it was touched on by some of the founding fathers of Christianity.
Don’t want to overload the discussion, but here is such an example.
St. Athanasius of Alexandria wrote, “God became man so that man might become god.” [the second god is always lowercase] (On the Incarnation 54:3, PG 25:192B). His statement is an apt description of the doctrine. What would otherwise seem absurdthat fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holyhas been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis: it is not possible for any created being to become (ontologically) God, or even part of God (the henosis of Greek Neoplatonic philosophy).
However note even the simple fact that the second god in St. Athanasius quote is always lower case.
We do not become God's equal, and we certainly do not get our own world and a license to create spirit children.
As with most works of the Fathers of the Church they speak in metaphorical terms, knowing good and well there is only room in the universe for one creator, one deity, one God, as did the people who read their words.
Yes, I’d like sources that don’t have Mormonism attached to them. I’d like Jewish sources.
(Do you pull this same stunt w/apostasy-blaming Mormon missionaries? "Get to work, Lds missionary. The 70 hours of slave labor we employ you each week isn't enough -- 'cause you're only focusing on the mission of your assigned town -- and missing out on the 6 billion who aren't part of the Lds church elsewhere. Think of the economy of only wasting your time on a single location.")
(Signed. Logic-lacking Lds)
Now I thought you were here to present things "honestly"? Now you start claiming this tripe? Judaism is monotheistic - period. Ask God Himself -
Isa 43:10* Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Pretty exclusive and clear. There are no other god - period.
Even Christ submitted his will unto the Father; I know I know the argument of the Trinity, but as you can see the scriptures be shown to support that point of view.
Sorry, your 'say so' that the scriptures show otherwise don't wash here. Try to form a cognizant argument please.
With no basis for that theory other than the fabrications of Joseph Smith.
Still waiting for something in the way of actual proof.
I don't think Now and Later was being completely disingenuous just repeating a “fact” from the apologist mantra, one made up from a bit of twisting of the real truth.
In specification saying the Jews of the Old Testament as a religion were henotheistic is not quite accurate.
The truth that forms the basis of the LDS “facts” in this regard is that there were factions among the Israelites that recognized other gods. Some were even polytheistic to at least some degree. The false idols and such in the Movie Ten Commandments for example point this out. For lack of a better way of putting it some were not as 'Jewish" as others, there were not following the Jewish faith as it really was but adding things from other cultures that they arose from or were exposed to as they saw fit. Sounds familiar...
Anyways, it did not help that definitive law was still not quite in place yet.
The Burning Bush rapidly brought these practices to an end.
Well, for ME, I am going to ask him just what he LEARNED to be UNTRUE about PRESBYTERIANism; because it sure as heck is OBVIOUS that NONE of you MORMONs have a CLUE!
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself;
Well; except for that darned pesky one wife thing: found in that book I translated.
And JS is a PRIME example.
MULTIPLY him a hundredfold?
So which is YOUR reason that you do not enlighten us as to what was UNTRUE about PRESBYTERIANism?
I gave you a place to start.
Why not accept my offer?
At lease a MUSLIM would defend his beliefs by giving verses of the Koran to back up his veiws.
Your posts seem to indicate otherwise!
In MORMONism; there is ONE god who happens to reside in TWO physical bodies.
You are exactly right; they WOULD 'say' that - and then be upset because someone would like a little PROOF to back up the assertion.
I've been trying to get sources to a LOT of claims you MORMONs are making in these thread; but you fail to do it.
I would not want to have to travel where he is to get an answer even if just for a short visit...
What place to start? You are all over the place.
You want me to argue about my Faith being the correct one and others Faiths are not. You have no argument from me.
Digest this book (one of many), from the impeccable Old Testament scholar, Margeret Barker. She’s has written several books on the era of 2nd Temple Judaism. The theological construct sounds strikingly like Mormonism, it ain’t funny.
“Many of the old certainties have been destroyed by new knowledge. What has become clear to me time and time again is that the evidence indicates that pre-Christian Judaism was not monotheistic in the sense that we use that word. Many in first century Palestine retained a world view derived from the more ancient religion of Israel, in which there was a High God and several Sons of God, one of whom was Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel. Yahweh the Lord could be manifested on earth in human form, as an angel, or in the Davidic king. It was as a manifestation of Yahweh, the Son of God, that Jesus was acknowledged as Son of God, Messiah and Lord.”
So your defense of Modern Mormonism which practice concepts that have long been rejected by Christian Scholars and practitioners as being unbilblical and unsupported by the most fundamental study of Scripture is to point out it is similar to the ancient practices of some Jewish peoples and their predecessors, practices long rejected as being unbilblical and unsupported by the most fundamental study of Scripture.
Well that's one approach I guess.
Though I think comparing it to Greek Mythology would be more interesting...
Hmmm. I particulary liked his book entitled: “God, Reason and the Evangelicals: The Case Against Evangelical Rationalism”
and his thesis:
“God, Reason and the Evangelicals: The Case Against Evangelical Rationalism.”
Do you know if this is a Jewish source? Is he Jewish?
That's WAY to fuzzy and nebulus.
Let's start with the type of man Jos. Smith revcord showed him to be.
Modern Mormonism DOES embody the Jewish practices: Jews were BIG on Law Keeping.
Non-Mormons get the MILK of MORMONism when it says they are 'saved' by grace and only JESUS is the one doing any work; and yet they PRACTICE (and advertise) so much about KEEPING Laws and Covenants they have made.
GALATIANS gets ignored (or spun wildly) by MODERN Mormonism.
The few who practiced such concepts tossed that to the curb many thousands of years ago where it belonged.
Where do I disagree with this?
I believe Christ gives life to everything. Without Christ there is no salvation and no force in this life with Christ. But there are many blessings from God when we follow his commandments. He is merciful. If we live by faith we will rely on his strength to follow his commandments and be blessed. That is my point of view.
My case is that Old Judaism was Henotheistic and that early Christianity was Henotheistic as well. The major argument for the contemporary Jews that the early Christians were wrong was that they were promoting a Henotheistic theological worldview.
I am happy to belong in that camp of the true believers. You may disagree that I am, but I am fairly confident I am right. There is too much evidence in the scriptures and in history. Research your history better and look to God and your eyes will be opened.
The practice of Henotheism in both faiths are artifacts of earlier times when people brought their own ideas into their knowledge of God to augment that which they did not know or understand. Polytheism was rampant and a large part of most other faiths in the region hence there would be some influence from what was once believed brought into the new ways if there was no other teachings at the time.
As God's word was spread in its complete form and studied it become very apparent in both faiths that there was only one existence in the entity of the universe with godly powers and status.
Trying to resurrect old ideas in the face of clear fact is interesting at best, fool hardy at worst.
I question not that you are a true believer, for you appear to most certainly believe. What I also do not question is that what you believe is not the truth.
On that score the case has gone past weak and into non existence. The final flailing of Mormon "science" and "archeology" are evidence of that, whether it is with many except the most hard core reduced to having to admit the DNA isn't there to the antiquities theft that brings us what is so laughingly called BOM "artifacts"
The most facinstring thing I find in all of this is that history is replete with off shoot sects in the Christan world. Many of those have been dismissed rather handily thought even they have at least some “legitimacy” since it could be argued that their facts were correct just their understanding was wrong.
With the LDS it is a whole other ballgame.
If Smith had left the whole mythology of the BOM out of the mix and just stayed with what was in essence a faith in the lines of some early non trinitarian henotheistic offshoot there would be little issue with even referring to the LDS as “Christan” just a primitive form of it.
But Smith added the fantasy that is the peoples and lands that never existed, the story line of God being once a man to further feed and support the great selling point that one could become god as well as other ideas the were plainly made up whole cloth. When all that and more gets added in it's game over; There is no rational support for Mormonism. Reason and faith are two sides of the same coin, one does not function without the other.
So yes, you are a true believer, it just that what you believe isn't true.
You challenged me to read, and I have for many years, the deference is that I read things that are both on and off the LDS approved reading list. Given that the LDS is a business and a business is in the job of selling it's "wares" one would expect a less that objective POV to the publications and works. Fact is not something that is mutually exclusive from faith. As I said in an earlier post, a feeling does not create truth, reality does. Facts can be rationally explained and proven. Even if there is a lack of evidence, reason and deducing can prove or disprove certain things.
For example, you as well as others have pointed out the theory that the Central American Indians were the early BOM peoples. Does it make sense that Christ would come here and not do exactly the same thing here as he did in the Eurasian Continent, send disciples out to spread his word. There is no record, none, zero, zilch of anything of Christ much less Christian ideals in the stories of ANY North, Central or South American peoples. How could God through Christ do such a good job in the Middle East and Europe and screw it up here. At worst by LDS reckoning we went apostate in the old world, but the name and ideas of Christ thrived. Would they not have done the same here?
A quick related point, why would Christ's Great commission tell his apostles and other followers to go ye into ALL the world if he had the America's covered?
Reason is not the enemy of faith, it is its companion and friend.
So; is there salvation if one does NOT 'follow His commandments?
Guys, my apologies for not responding. I have had a choatic weekend with a sick child. I haven’t even read your responses except to skim through them. Please give me some time to respond. Thank you.
This is heart-rending for any parent.
Though we differ in our beliefs, we ANTI's are praying for you and your child.
The main issue you're responding to is not my claims about "authorization" of the Mormon church. I mean, sure, we could get into that. In fact, I chose to at the end (see below). But that's not what our discussion has been about. It's been about the supposed "withdrawn authorization" of the church of Jesus Christ, as started by Jesus Christ -- and one which He promised the gates of hell would not prevail against. Did Jesus tell the truth in Matt. 18:16 or not?
Or when the apostle Paul said that this church would give glory to God "throughout all generations" (Eph. 3:21) -- did He tell the truth or not?
Or when the Holy Spirit told the apostle Paul in 1 Tim. 4:1 that only "some" would depart from the faith -- not "all" at any given point -- was the Holy Spirit correct or mistaken?
Even the word "restoration" is a misnomer. If I "restore" an old house, I haven't torn it down, leaving empty property for 1500-1800 years, only to rebuild it from scratch on that same property 1800 years later. Yet, Mormonism claims the true people of God totally exited for that period of time. And you acknowledged this: Mormons do believe in a "complete apostasy" as you point out, and in the restoration of "the Church of Jesus Christ (of Latter-Day Saints)" as they call it, which they believe is the only current "true and living" church, that is, the only current one authorized by God.
...to mormons, that no church existed at the time of Joseph Smith, and no other church exists today, that is actually authorized by God to act in God's name.
Well, this has long been my definition of a cult leader: Someone who is not divine yet whom claims to have a monopoly on all truth while all others are wrong in the eyes of God. The LDS church proclaims to be the "one true church" (see Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:9-10) and in fact, theologically, according to this passage only recognizes two churches -- the true one and the Satanic counterfeit. (Guess who LDS label as the true "Lamb of God" church and who by default thereby falls under the broad Satanic umbrella?)
As I see your argument, the outline is (1) mormons believe X Y Z...I am just disagreeing with some of your points under number (1), that's all.
your words: ...the "creeds" were an abomination in God's sight [post #310]
Well, we seem to agree Joseph Smith says "X" about the Christian beliefs -- that they are 100% "putrid" in Smith's nostrils
your words, part ii: ...no church existed at the time of Joseph Smith, and no other church exists today, that is actually authorized by God to act in God's name... [post #514]
Well, we seem to agree Joseph Smith says "Y" about the Christian church -- that ALL are unjoinable.
your words, part iii: Mormons do believe in a "complete apostasy" as you point out... [post #514]
Well, we seem to agree Joseph Smith says "Z" about Christians being apostates of apostate churches across the board.
So what is it we're supposedly disagreeing with again? (Oh, yeah, the appendix to X,Y,Z -- who qualifies as "corrupt" ) You say "preachers" and leading sect teachers. All I can say is, nice generic sweep. When the God of the Old Testament condemned leaders, he was usually specific. (Not so, re: Smith's god).
BTW, didn't you contradict yourself from your post #493 vs. post #514? ...according to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, almost all had gone astray, that is, "professors of Christianity" (believers, for the sake of this discussion) "generally" had gone astray... [post #493]
Then, in post #514, you said "Mormons do believe in a 'complete apostasy'. Which is it? "Almost all" or "complete?"
Finally, as for "authorization," the Mormon god has no final authorization to award to authorize anyone on his own. He always been beholden to a higher god -- a "council of gods" who were before him. At one point, he was mere man with no authority. He is not an ultimate god; there is no "buck stops here" authority within him. That is not so with the Christian God. He is Alpha and Omega; none are before Him; none are beside Him. (Isaiah 43; 44; 45). All ultimate authority rests with Him!
Or when the Holy Spirit told the apostle Paul in 1 Tim. 4:1 that only "some" would depart from the faith -- not "all" at any given point -- was the Holy Spirit correct or mistaken?
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: but it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (JST) For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. 2 Nephi 25:23 (Book of Mormon)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: but it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (JST)
For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. 2 Nephi 25:23 (Book of Mormon)
It is sticky on the inside. Disenchanted Mormons have great difficulty leaving the Mormon church. They get stuck. Their questions and doubts are answered in doublespeak. They are told they are Christian, so there is no point in looking for answers there. They are told that if they are struggling or have doubts, it is because of their own unworthiness.
It is rubbery on the outside. When Christians attempt to witness the truth of God's Word they find the doublespeak and Mormonese definition of biblical terms bounce their words back.
This is the plight of Mormons.
Examples of LDS 'Doublespeak' & 'Mormonese definitions of biblical terms':
10. "Little kids are perfect until age 8. That's why we baptize them at that age...for the remission of sins...that, uh, the sins they, uh, don't have."
9. "Adam & Eve disobeyed God & brought sin into the world. So we celebrate that...as a, you know, as a sort of 'upward fall'...'Cause that brought us parenthood, mortality & potential godhood for us. (Sin pays)"
8. "Your Christian gospel isn't fair. With our Mormon proxy baptism for the dead, people get a second after-life chance...our Mormon gospel IS fair...uh, so long, uh, as we find the birth certificate of, you know, every cave dweller and illiterate peasants from pre-existant, pre-published times."
7. "We don't believe in earthly polygamy, anymore...well, at least, you know, not until jesus returns...at least so says Brother Bruce R. McConkie."
6. "We ex-communicate polygamists. Uh, except for Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Parley P. Pratt, and others -- including Jesus Christ, who some of our founding apostles said was also a polygamist. (And they're STILL practicing polygamy in the great beyond."
5. "We have a living prophet; pay attention to us 'cause we're the only church that believes in continuing revelation. Uh, except pay no attention to those quotes of our prophets cited by FReeper Inmans! Our 'living prophets' weren't continually 'revelating' when they said those Inman-cited things from the tabernacle."
4. "Christians are apostates. Oh, and we're Christian, too!"
3. "Christians are apostates. (That's why 53% of our Lds hymnal -- 190 of them -- were hymns inspired by those 'apostates'!)"
2. "We are not polytheist. There's only one god. Well, just a lot of 'only one gods.'" [Ejonesie's submission]
1. "Oh, man can become one [a god] too -- just like jesus the son and god himself did at one point. (But there is only one god)." [Ejonesie's submission & personal fave]
It makes my brain hurt...
In defense of Beck and Joseph Smith I will give you one small piece of evidence that Joseph Smith might be right.
Joseph Smith says at age 17 The Angel Moroni appeared to him and said: (I will paraphrase) God had a work for him to do and that his name would be had for good and evil in all nations. This has always been in Joseph Smith History. There are two answers, either a back woods farm boy in 1822 made that statement or an angel did.
In this electronic age it is easy to prove: Do a search of Joseph Smith Jr. with as many objectionable adjectives as you can think of. Try False Prophet, Evil, Fake, Idiot, fraud, etc; There are millions of sites.
Then you decide.
I am a Mormon and would vote for Romney for Congress but not as President. He would be a great Senator or Vice President and would get us out of our current financial mess by using correct principles. He has flip flopped over a number of issues, abortion being one of them.
When he ran against Ted Kennedy years ago he tried to out liberal Ted.
A matter of interest, Ronald Reagan had 16 Mormons in his cabinet and inner circle.
Is it intellect that helps you to be a Christian? Is that why The Savior picked Fishermen, For Their Intellect. Most Mormons believe more of the Bible than most Christians I have had discussion with.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our own image, after our likeness. Chrisians say: It doesn’t mean that! Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam, in the day that God created man in the likeness of God made he him.
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image and called his name Seth. THE LANGUAGE IS THE SAME. WE ARE THE IMAGE OF GOD PHYSICALLY.
JESUS APPEARS 3 TIMES AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, WITH A BODY, AND ATE WITH THE APOSTLES: John 23:5,14, verse 25 says there are not enough books to contain all that Jesus said. Why then is the Bible all we need of His word.
Why did Christ appear 3 times with a body and ascend into heaven with a body? What is the message, he did nothing without teaching us!!
You forget, in the U.S.A. it has always been open season on Mormons. They were driven from New York, Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois. Nauvoo Illinois was second only to Chicago in size when Joseph Smith was murdered and they were driven out in February. Many died on the trek. 1000 men in this group volunteered to serve the U.S. in The Mexican war, They marched 2000 miles to Southern California. The longest march in U.S. Army history. They chose a land nobody wanted, Utah. Despite this we Mormons still revere the Constitution. Go figure.
Salt Lake City and all other Utah towns were laid out according to Joseph Smiths plan.
OK, if this means a literal physical image, then ya wanna explain whose image Eve was made in? (Or are you saying, in some sexist sort of way, that only men -- and not women -- were made in the divine image?)
The fact that God & Jesus created both men and women shows that Gen. 1:26 cannot be referencing a literal male body of your god.
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