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Do We Goldbugs Finally Have Your Attention?
Seeking Alpha ^ | 11/13/2009 | Andy Sutton

Posted on 11/13/2009 6:45:21 AM PST by SeekAndFind

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To: Toddsterpatriot
Swing_Thought cares what it was worth in 1913. Maybe you can clear up his confusion?

Comparing the price of gold from the year that the federal reserve act was passed to today gives us the full picture of just how poor a job the fed has done with the dollar. Using our definition of money, a medium of exchange, unit of account, and a store of value let's consider just how well the dollar still fits the definition:

Is the dollar used as a medium of exchange? Yes, though due to it's performance on the other two money characteristics (see below), this may not be the case for much longer.

Is the dollar a good unit of account? It's a pretty horrible unit of account, actually. It's value fluctuates widely, and while we know the long term trend is down, we don't know how fast the fed will reach their ultimate goal of zero. So we have to give it a big fat NO here.

Is the dollar a good store of value? Here, by anyone's accounting, the answer is another huge NO. When I said; Let's see, gold was 20 dollars an ounce. Now it's ELEVEN HUNDRED dollars an ounce.Your answer was; Wow! 6% return a year. You're looking through your FRN prism. Gold IS a good store of value. A more reasonable way to look at it is that the dollar has LOST 98% of it's value (so far), since 1913, as measured by gold.

So, the dollar itself only meets one of the three characteristics of money, and that one characteristic it DOES still meet - medium of exchange - is in jeopardy. A reasonable person can see the problem. The dollar is losing it's money status.

Now my guess is that you might want to want to come back at me with a "how well does gold fit the definition of money". Before you go to the trouble let me point out for you that your analysis will be distorted if you view it through the FRN prism. As a medium of exchange in this country, gold served well until it was outlawed by FDR, and the reason it doesn't function as such now is because of legal tender laws and this little thing called taxes, which is what happens when you try to use gold as money while the fed is destroying the dollar's value.

Also, we know that gold's history as a unit of account will look poor as viewed through the FRN prism, but again, we have to look at what actually happened. While gold was illegal for American's to own it's price in dollars was suppressed. When the top of that pressure cooker finally blew, not surprisingly, gold's value in dollars skyrocketed. It then settled down and only fairly recently (this decade), as the dollar's value accelerated it's slide did gold start it's bullish move.

Finally, as a store of value, well, no explanation needed there, right? Here, even you dollar defenders have to admit - gold IS money.

In all seriousness... I do hope that if you don't yet own any that you are buying some gold. The dollar might very well be dying.

141 posted on 11/14/2009 9:38:24 PM PST by Swing_Thought (The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is a knowledge of our own ignorance. - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Swing_Thought
Comparing the price of gold from the year that the federal reserve act was passed to today gives us the full picture of just how poor a job the fed has done with the dollar.

Are you under the impression that there was no inflation or deflation under the gold standard?

It's a pretty horrible unit of account, actually. It's value fluctuates widely,

The dollar fluctuates much less than gold does.

we don't know how fast the fed will reach their ultimate goal of zero.

You think the Fed wants the value of the dollar to be zero?

Gold IS a good store of value.

Because it's never been worth zero? LOL!

142 posted on 11/15/2009 7:11:32 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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To: dollarbull; Swing_Thought; Toddsterpatriot
"...a long way from this gold secular bull market's version of the 1980 blow off top. The public doesn't even know..."

Excellent-- hey Todd, I knew you'd be able to explain that even though gold may be a great commodity for speculation, money is something completely different.  I don't know what it was you said but thanks just the same!

143 posted on 11/15/2009 8:33:05 AM PST by expat_panama
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To: Toddsterpatriot
my post 39  "...you were the guy that brought up all the "GDP numbers..."

your post 40   "NO I did not bring it up..."

your post 33   "...why do we have the GDP numbers, less investment, and unspeakable unemployment numbers?"

Guys like Obama can say something and turn right around and deny they said it, but we can't.

144 posted on 11/15/2009 10:12:14 AM PST by expat_panama
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To: Toddsterpatriot

dang— cheap Chicom keyboard, sorry about that last post...


145 posted on 11/15/2009 10:22:49 AM PST by expat_panama
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To: expat_panama; Swing_Thought; Toddsterpatriot
Excellent-- hey Todd, I knew you'd be able to explain that even though gold may be a great commodity for speculation, money is something completely different. I don't know what it was you said but thanks just the same!

Gold is money. Always has been. Always will be. Nothing you or the central planners do can change that. They *can* try to suppress it and make their fiat toilet paper look good by comparison. All that does is create distortions and buying opportunities such as we've seen over the last decade.
146 posted on 11/15/2009 10:23:15 AM PST by dollarbull (why are paperbugs so bad at history?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot; Swing_Thought
Because it's never been worth zero? LOL!

Actually that is one of the reasons. Gold cannot go to zero value. Fiat money can, and always does, without exception. The dollar's destiny is preordained - it's got a rendez vous with the fiat currency graveyard.

Voltaire said it best, but you don't know your history, so you probably don't know what I'm talking about.
147 posted on 11/15/2009 10:29:46 AM PST by dollarbull (why are paperbugs so bad at history?)
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To: Swing_Thought; Toddsterpatriot; expat_panama
So, the dollar itself only meets one of the three characteristics of money, and that one characteristic it DOES still meet - medium of exchange - is in jeopardy. A reasonable person can see the problem. The dollar is losing it's money status.

The dollar's property as a medium of exchange is starting to melt away in the same way as its property as a store of value has melted away.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,560742,00.html
148 posted on 11/15/2009 10:38:59 AM PST by dollarbull (why are paperbugs so bad at history?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Which part of the 400 oz bar is the tungsten hidden in?

I'm pretty sure a high-intensity X-ray would detect it.

Look up "Industrial radiography".

149 posted on 11/15/2009 3:20:28 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Travis McGee

Back toward the end of the era when those of British ancestry ran Rhodesia, the folks with a lot of money bought very, very nice boats.

The plan was that when the time came to go, they just get in the boat and sail away, then when they got wherever they were going, they would sell the boat and they’d have money to start over.

Called them “crash boats”, as I recall.

You alluded to something similar in FEAT.


150 posted on 11/15/2009 3:26:24 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

I don’t think X-rays would penetrate very far into a gold bar.


Of course you are right. Still, there must be some kind of acoustic means, like seismologists use. With some kind of gear, that Au/K transition will stick out like a sore thumb.


151 posted on 11/15/2009 3:50:45 PM PST by Atlas Sneezed (“Personal freedom begins when you tell Old Mrs. Grundy to go to Hell.” -Lazarus Long)
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To: DuncanWaring

They had a long way to go from Rhodesia to the ocean! But it was done a lot in South Africa.


152 posted on 11/15/2009 6:35:07 PM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Beelzebubba; Toddsterpatriot; Travis McGee
...must be some kind of acoustic means...

Gold and tungsten have different densities (gold at 19.32 g/mL and tungsten is 19.25 g/cm3) --off by four parts in a thousand.  Any decent engineer could measure that in his kitchen, but an easier way is using off the shelf kits with a magnetic/xray/density mix and that can be carried into the vault.  More info here.

Personally, I'd have thought the simplest way would be by melting point.  With gold at 1064 °C and tungsten at 3422°C (hotter than the surface of the sun), just stick a white hot needle into the bar...

153 posted on 11/16/2009 3:40:41 AM PST by expat_panama
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To: SeekAndFind

up this morning

Gold Price Change due to Weakening of US Dollar
+3.70
Gold Price Change due to Predominant Buying
+6.60
Gold Price: Total Change
+10.30


154 posted on 11/16/2009 3:48:10 AM PST by dennisw (Obama -- our very own loopy, leftist god-thing.)
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To: brityank

Forget gold’s spike to $850 which was all of two days. The highest inflation adjusted one month average for gold was about $700 back in the early 1980s. If we reach a one month average of $1800 next month then we will be the same when inflation is taken into account. So we are not that far off from a new AU peak...not that it will happen next month

My numbers $700 and $1800 might be off a bit but you get the idea


155 posted on 11/16/2009 4:14:07 AM PST by dennisw (Obama -- our very own loopy, leftist god-thing.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Sorry, too many people on FR who don't understand economics think that an increased money supply must mean higher prices. I'm glad you don't agree with them.

Uh-oh! Look what happened a year and half later. Higher prices everywhere!!!
156 posted on 03/04/2011 9:35:16 PM PST by dollarbull (why are paperbugs so bad at history?)
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To: expat_panama
Dollarbull says is "I'll hold gold as my money" --as if it were a store of value.

$400/oz later...yep, it's a store of value.
157 posted on 03/04/2011 9:36:59 PM PST by dollarbull (why are paperbugs so bad at history?)
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To: dollarbull; Toddsterpatriot
$400/oz later...yep, it's a store of value.

Hey a blast from the past --a four month lag time is hard on the old memory but we were talking about how gold isn't money because it's not a unit of account and it's not a medium of exchange.  We were also talking about the fact that no matter how many times this is said. the info never makes it across so that's why I asked Todd to see if he could explain it.

Looks like nobody can get it across, seeing how after four months not even Todd could clarify it.

btw, that "$400/oz later" is a fantasy.   November's close was $1,372 and yesterday it was $1,427.   The math is easier for me to do than explain but I get $55.  While that may be a 13% annualized rate of return, we get a -81% annualized rate if we look at how gold's fallen since last Wednesday.  A serious look tells us that precious metals are not a 'store of value' when the amount stored changes at rates jumping from +13% to -81%.

158 posted on 03/05/2011 4:47:57 AM PST by expat_panama
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To: expat_panama; Toddsterpatriot
btw, that "$400/oz later" is a fantasy. November's close was $1,372 and yesterday it was $1,427.

Nice try. How about November 2009's price, which is the date of your post to which I'm replying?
159 posted on 03/05/2011 8:15:14 AM PST by dollarbull (why are paperbugs so bad at history?)
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To: dollarbull
Sorry, too many people on FR who don't understand economics think that an increased money supply must mean higher prices. I'm glad you don't agree with them.

Uh-oh! Look what happened a year and half later. Higher prices everywhere!!!

Please point out the conflict you think you see between these two statements.

160 posted on 03/05/2011 10:08:08 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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