Posted on 11/20/2009 5:48:49 PM PST by jongaltsr
Subject: Vietnam Facts vs Fiction
FYI,
We do not live in Viet Nam, Viet Nam lives in us.
Vietnam Facts vs Fiction.
I found this article very interesting. The most notable fact is that 2.7 million Americans actually served in the Vietnam Theater of war. In the last census nearly 14 million Americans claimed they served in Vietnam .
Four out of five are lying. I wonder why.
Vietnam Facts vs Fiction
For over 30 years I..like many Vietnam veterans..seldom spoke of Vietnam , except with other veterans, when training soldiers, and in public speeches. These past five years I have joined the hundreds of thousands who believe it is high time the truth be told about the Vietnam War and the people who served there. It's time the American people learn that the United States military did not lose the War, and that a surprisingly high number of people who claim to have served there, in fact, DID NOT.
As Americans, support the men and women involved in the War on Terrorism, the mainstream media are once again working tirelessly to undermine their efforts and force a psychological loss or stalemate for the United States . We cannot stand by and let the media do to today's warriors what they did to us 35 years ago.
Below are some assembled facts most readers will find interesting. It isn't a long read, but it will..I guarantee..teach you some things you did not know about the Vietnam War and those who served, fought, or died there. Please share it with those with whom you communicate.
Capt. Marshal Hanson, U.S.N.R (Ret.) Capt. Scott Beaton, Statistical Source Vietnam War Facts: Facts, Statistics, Fake Warrior Numbers, and Myths Dispelled
9,087,000 (Million) military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975.
2,709,918 Americans served in uniform in Vietnam
Veterans represented 9.7% of their generation.
240 men were awarded the Medal of Honor during the Vietnam War
1.. The first man to die in Vietnam was James Davis, in 1958. He was with the 509th Radio Research Station.
Davis Station in Saigon was named for him.
2.. 58,148 were killed in Vietnam
3.. 75,000 were severely disabled .
4.. 23,214 were 100% disabled .
5.. 5,283 lost limbs.
6.. 1,081 sustained multiple amputations.
7.. Of those killed, 61% were younger than 21.
8.. 11,465 of those killed were younger than 20 years old.
9.. Of those killed, 17,539 were married ..
10. Average age of men killed: 23.1 years .
11. Five men killed in Vietnam were only 16 years old.
12. The oldest man killed was 62 years old.
13. As of January 15, 2004, there are 1,875 Americans still unaccounted for from the Vietnam War .
14. 97% of Vietnam Veterans were honorably discharged .
15. 91% of Vietnam Veterans say they are glad they served.
16. 74% say they would serve again, even knowing the outcome.
17. Vietnam veterans have a lower unemployment rate than the same non-vet age groups.
18. Vietnam veterans' personal income exceeds that of our non-veteran age group by more than 18 percent.
19. 87% of Americans hold Vietnam Veterans in high esteem.
20. There is no difference in drug usage between Vietnam Veterans and non-Vietnam Veterans of the same age group (Source: Veterans Administration Study)
21. Vietnam Veterans are less likely to be in prison - only one-half of one percent of Vietnam Veterans have been jailed for crimes.
22. 85% of Vietnam Veterans made successful transitions to civilian life.
23. Interesting Census Stats and "Been There" Wanabees: a. 1,713,823 of those who served in Vietnam were still alive as of August, 1995 (census figures). b. During that same Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country was: 9,492,958.
24. As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511.
This is hard to believe, losing nearly 711,000 between '95 and '00. That's 390 per day.
24. During this Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country is: 13,853,027.
By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE WHO CLAIM TO BE Vietnam vets are not.
25. The Department of Defense Vietnam War Service Index officially provided by The War Library originally reported with errors that 2,709,918 U.S.military personnel as having served in-country. Corrections and confirmations to this errored index resulted in the addition of 358 U.S. military personnel confirmed to have served in Vietnam but not originally listed by the Department of Defense. (All names are currently on file and accessible 24/7/365).
26. Isolated atrocities committed by American Soldiers produced torrents of outrage from anti-war critics and the news media while Communist atrocities were so common that they received hardly any media mention at all. The United States sought to minimize and prevent attacks on civilians while North Vietnam made attacks on civilians a centerpiece of its strategy.
27. Americans who deliberately killed civilians received prison sentences while Communists who did so received commendations.
From1957 to 1973, the National Liberation Front assassinated 36,725 Vietnamese and abducted another 58,499.
The death squads focused on leaders at the village level and on anyone who improved the lives of the peasants such as medical personnel, social workers, and school teachers. - Nixon Presidential Papers .
Common Myths Dispelled:
#1. Myth: Common Belief is that most Vietnam veterans were drafted.
Fact: 2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. 2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted. Approximately 70% of those killed in Vietnam were volunteers.
#2. Myth: The media have reported that suicides among Vietnam veterans range from 50,000 to 100,000 - 6 to 11 times the non-Vietnam veteran population.
Fact: Mortality studies show that 9,000 is a better estimate. "The CDC Vietnam Experience Study Mortality Assessment showed that during the first 5 years after discharge, deaths from suicide were 1.7 times more likely among Vietnam veterans than non-Vietnam veterans. After that initial post-service period, Vietnam veterans were no more likely to die from suicide than non-Vietnam veterans. In fact, after the 5-year post-service period, the rate of suicides is less in the Vietnam veterans' group.
#3.Myth: Common belief is that a disproportionate number of blacks were killed in the Vietnam War.
Fact: 86% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasians, 12.5% were black, 1.2% was other races.
Sociologists Charles C. Moskos and John Sibley Butler, in their recently published book "All That We Can Be," said they analyzed the claim that blacks were used like cannon fodder during Vietnam "and can report definitely that this charge is untrue. Black fatalities amounted to 12 percent of all Americans killed in Southeast Asia, a figure proportional to the number of blacks in the U.S. population at the time and slightly lower than the proportion of blacks in the Army at the close of the war."
#4 Myth: Common belief is that the war was fought largely by the poor and uneducated.
Fact: Servicemen who went to Vietnam from well-to-do areas had a slightly elevated risk of dying because they were more likely to be pilots or infantry officers.
Vietnam Veterans were the best educated forces our nation had ever sent into combat. 79% had a high school education or better. Here are statistics from the Combat Area Casualty File (CACF) as of November 1993. The CACF is the basis for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial (The Wall):
Average age of 58,148 killed in Vietnam was 23.11 years. (Although 58,169 names are in the Nov. 93 database, only 58,148 have both event date and birth date. Event date is used instead of declared dead date for some of those who were listed as missing in action)
Deaths Average Age Total: 58,148, 23.11 years
Enlisted: 50,274, 22.37 years
Officers: 6,598, 28.43 years
Warrants: 1,276, 24.73 years
E1: 525, 20.34 years
11B MOS: 18,465, 22.55 years
#5 Myth: The common belief is the average age of an infantryman fighting in Vietnam was 19.
Fact: Assuming KIAs accurately represented age groups serving in Vietnam, the average age of an infantryman (MOS 11B) serving in Vietnam to be 19 years old is a myth, it is actually 22.
None of the enlisted grades have an average age of less than 20.
The average man who fought in World War II was 26 years of age.
#6 Myth: The Common belief is that the domino theory was proved false.
Fact: The domino theory was accurate. The ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) countries, Philippines , Indonesia , Malaysia, Singapore , and Thailand stayed free of Communism because of the U.S. commitment to Vietnam . The Indonesians threw the Soviets out in 1966 because of America's commitment in Vietnam . Without that commitment, Communism would have swept all the way to the Malacca Straits that is south of Singapore and of great strategic importance to the free world. If you ask people who live in these countries that won the war in Vietnam , they have a different opinion from the American news media. The Vietnam War was the turning point for Communism.
#7 Myth: The common belief is that the fighting in Vietnam was not as intense as in World War II.
Fact: The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the helicopter.
One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a casualty.
58,148 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.7 million who served. Although the percent that died is similar to other wars, amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II ...75,000 Vietnam veterans are severely disabled.
MEDEVAC helicopters flew nearly 500,000 missions. Over 900,000 patients were airlifted (nearly half were American).
The average time lapse between wounding to hospitalization was less than one hour. As a result, less than one percent of all Americans wounded, who survived the first 24 hours, died. The helicopter provided unprecedented mobility.
Without the helicopter it would have taken three times as many troops to secure the 800 mile border with Cambodia and Laos (the politicians thought the Geneva Conventions of 1954 and the Geneva Accords of 1962 would secure the border).
#8 Myth: Kim Phuc, the little nine year old Vietnamese girl running naked from the napalm strike near Trang Bang on 8 June 1972...shown a million times on American television..was burned by Americans bombing Trang Bang.
Fact: No American had involvement in this incident near Trang Bang that burned Phan Thi Kim Phuc.
The planes doing the bombing near the village were VNAF (Vietnam Air Force) and were being flown by Vietnamese pilots in support of South Vietnamese troops on the ground.
The Vietnamese pilot who dropped the napalm in error is currently living in the United States . Even the AP photographer, Nick Ut, who took the picture, was Vietnamese.
The incident in the photo took place on the second day of a three day battle between the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) who occupied the village of Trang Bang and the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam ) who were trying to force the NVA out of the village.
Recent reports in the news media that an American commander ordered the air strike that burned Kim Phuc are incorrect. There were no Americans involved in any capacity. "We (Americans) had nothing to do with controlling VNAF," according to Lieutenant General (Ret) James F. Hollingsworth, the Commanding General of TRAC at that time.
Also, it has been incorrectlyreported that two of Kim Phuc's brothers were killed in this incident. They were Kim's cousins not her brothers.
#9 Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam . > Fact: The American military was not defeated in Vietnam .
The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance.
General Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California, Berkley a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.
FACT: THE UNITED STATES DID NOT LOSE THE WAR IN VIETNAM , THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE DID. Read on....
The fall of Saigon happened 30 April 1975, two years AFTER the American military left Vietnam. The last American troops departed in their entirety 29 March 1973.
FACT: How could we lose a war we had already stopped fighting? We fought to an agreed stalemate. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973.
* It called for release of all U.S. prisoners, withdrawal of U.S. forces, limitation of both sides' forces inside South Vietnam and a commitment to peaceful reunification.
*The 140,000 evacuees in April 1975 during the fall of Saigon consisted almost entirely of civilians and Vietnamese military, NOT American military running for their lives.
*There were almost twice as many casualties in Southeast Asia (primarily Cambodia) the first two years after the fall of Saigon in1975 then there were during the ten years the U.S. was involved in Vietnam .
*Thanks for the perceived loss and the countless assassinations and torture visited upon Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians goes mainly to the American media and their undying support-by-misrepresentation of the anti-War movement in the United States.
*As with much of the Vietnam War, the news media misreported and misinterpreted the 1968 Tet Offensive. It was reported as an overwhelming success for the Communist forces and a decided defeat for the U.S. forces. Nothing could be further from the truth. Despite initial victories by the Communist forces, the Tet Offensive resulted in a major defeat of those forces. General Vo Nguyen Giap, the designer of the Tet Offensive, is considered by some as ranking with Wellington , Grant, Lee and MacArthur as a great commander. Still, militarily, the Tet Offensive was a total defeat of the Communist forces on all fronts. It resulted in the death of some 45,000 NVA troops and the complete, if not total destruction of the Viet Cong elements in South Vietnam . The Organization of the Viet Cong Units in the South never recovered.
The Tet Offensive succeeded on only one front and that was the News front and the political arena. This was another example in the Vietnam War of an inaccuracy becoming the perceived truth.
However, inaccurately reported, the News Media made the Tet Offensive famous.
Please give all credit and research to: Capt. Marshal Hanson, U.S.N.R (Ret.) Capt. Scott Beaton, Statistical Source
I added this section to a CP page about media bias, and will add this article as a reference as well:
Charges of western media bias in favor of the Communist side have often been made by critics,[6] who see such alleged bias as being crucial in turning military victories by America into a loss of the war, much by means of propaganda. Underlying the importance of such is the often quoted exchange between Colonel Harry G. Summers, Jr. and his North Vietnamese counterpart, Colonel Tu. During one of his liaison trips to Hanoi, Colonel Harry told Tu, “You know, you never beat us on the battlefield,” Colonel Tu responded, “That may be so, but it is also irrelevant.”[7]
The rest here http://conservapedia.com/Vietnam_war#Media_Bias Comments?
Missed one:
28. John Kerry served in Vietnam
= = =
Serously though, good post.
When running a war, it seems that it has become important to get good reporting.
When Iraq had imbedded journalists giving eyewitness accounts, the entire country was behind the effort. When the journalists sat in their comfy hotel rooms in the Green Zone in Bahgdad all we got was disinformation.
I hadnt heard that before.
And people still vote for that lying POS.
Not exactly true... but almost... see my other post — service in Cambodia, Laos and Thailand (entering the war zone from those locations... entering in combat against the same enemy ...
OK...I was trying to make the point that the self identified and sort of official distinction can be pretty easily made with that rule of thumb...by those who WANT to...unlike Tom Harkin did all those years...
LOL
I choze .. “Both”.
helluva Combo.
I’m not sure I ever came all the way home. I have as many friends “in country” now as I have at home.
There is a need for additional statistics from the Vietnam era.
These are based on the common misconception that was touted in the US, that if a young male lost his deferment, he “Would be drafted, go to Vietnam, and die!” Radicals and leftists, especially on college campuses, used this lie to foment radicalism and protest by otherwise ordinary students, generating a mood of fear and panic.
The statistics that need to be compiled include the following:
1) What percentage of service age males were drafted? How many volunteered?
2) Of those, what percentage went into combat arms, as opposed to combat support and combat service support branches?
3) Of those who graduated AIT, what percentage went to Vietnam?
4) Of those who went to Vietnam, how many were posted to units that at any point were involved in combat?
5) Of those in combat engaged units, how many reenlisted on condition that they stay with their unit? (Knowing that each of these would ‘bump’ a potential replacement.)
Realizing that this is a *cumulative* group of statistics, what were the odds of “being drafted, going to Vietnam, and dying?”
What I believe it will indicate is that there was a central core of personnel who did most of the combat over several enlistments and several years. Surrounding them was a flux of other soldiers who were less capable because of less experience. Only some of them got most of the combat as well.
This was the group that experienced most casualties, most KIA, and likely most PTSD. A small, elite band of brothers, compared to the vast numbers of scared young men back in the US.
Wow, a quarter a day! you work cheap. If ya need any more work, lemme know. I might be able to find something for ya at that price.
The question asked was regarding the Vietnam era (August 1964 to April 1975)
When did this person serve on active duty in the U.S. Armed Forces? Mark (X) a box for EACH period in which this person served.My future progeny may hate me, but I never responded to the Census at all.
| | Vietnam era (August 1964 to April 1975)That's no lie!
I wondered about the wording, because most questions on job applications or membership forms asking for veteran status ask if you are a Viet Nam Era Vet having served in the U.S. Armed Forces or Merchant Marines from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975. I have seldom been asked if I served in the Viet Nam War Theater.
Perhaps the Captains have trouble with reading comprehension.
http://www.pajamasmedia.com/instapundit-archive/archives/017246.php
In 1979, Mr. Harkin, then a congressman, participated in a round-table discussion arranged by the Congressional Vietnam Veterans’ Caucus. “I spent five years as a Navy pilot, starting in November of 1962,” Mr. Harkin said at that meeting, in words that were later quoted in a book, Changing of the Guard, by Washington Post political writer David Broder. “One year was in Vietnam. I was flying F-4s and F-8s on combat air patrols and photo-reconnaisance support missions. I did no bombing.”
That clearly is not an accurate picture of his Navy service. Though Mr. Harkin stresses he is proud of his Navy record — “I put my ass on the line day after day” — he concedes now he never flew combat air patrols in Vietnam. . . .
Mr. Harkin’s Navy record shows his only decoration is the National Defense Service Medal, awarded to everyone on active service during those years. He did not receive either the Vietnam Service medal or the Vietnam Campaign medal, the decorations given to everyone who served in the Southeast Asia theater. “We didn’t get them for what we did,” Mr. Harkin says. “It’s never bothered me.”
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005496
It turned out Mr. Harkin had not seen combat and was stationed in Japan. What’s more, Mr. Cheney isn’t the first Vice President to fall victim to Mr. Harkin’s acid tongue. In an editorial in 1988, we quoted “Senator Tom Harkin who served in Vietnam” (we thought at the time) saying of his Senate colleague Dan Quayle, who did not serve in Vietnam: “It’s so ironic; they get in Congress or the government and become big hawks. Don’t they have any shame at all?”
Do you think the average joe really recognizes that “vietnam ERA vet” is a different label than “vietnam vet”?
I don’t.
I think the average joe would only go so far as to differentiate between a “vet” and a “combat vet”.
“...well no, I’m not a COMBAT vet, but I’m still a vietnam veteran”
What a POS . . if I was his opponent I would hammer the crap out of the SOB
I volunteered to go. I was doing no good in college and had no idea what I wanted to do and Uncle Sam was paying for a trip to an exotic place. The army wouldn’t take me because I didn’t weigh enough so I ate a LOT for a month and went AF.I’ve been back several times and will go back at least once more, maybe to stay, if we get Obamacare.
Sorry. That was Mark Moyar’s Triumph Forsaken. (Pulitzer nominated). See his website at www.triumphforsaken.com
btt
My own feeling is that in some way the Vietam war much exhausted the expansionist zeal of Communism, after paying such a large price for what they gained, while becoming more well-known for its repression, and need to gain allegiance by force. Had they taken Vietnam quickly i think it would have been encouraged expanded much more.
Meanwhile, the ideological revolution of rebellion against moral authority (with relative little valid quest for a better reality, but which instead sought fantasy thru drugs) which sympathized with Communism, and helped them win over S. Vietnam, also enabled a ideological Communist victory in the US.
This Viet Nam vet believes that we did lose the war,not because of the military,but because our communist-accomadating politicians betrayed us. They wouldn’t let us win. Look at the result: South Viet Nam went communist. This could have been prevented.
I already knew this. But I am not very good at conveying it to the folks on this thread.
I’m really really glad you posted it.
As it was explained to me, all are considered “vets” of some fashion because there were so many that were called up and pulled into the war theater. national guard units, reservists, and other soldiers all over the globe could’ve been shipped off to war at any moment. Lots of them were.
I can’t remember the official terminology, but there is also a distinction made between those that only served in the continental US and those that served outside the continental US...alaska and hawaii are included as “overseas”.
A soldier that spent his entire enlistment term in alaska and/or hawaii is considered a veteran of a foreign war if he was there during the “vietnam war era”.
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