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Stop the Hysteria: The Vote on Health Care Bill Is Long From Being Over
November 21 2009 | jeveritas

Posted on 11/21/2009 7:26:17 PM PST by jveritas

Today healthcare vote in the Senate was so badly represented by many on our side and of course by the media and was blown way out of proportion. In reality it is a meaningless vote. The vote today was only to start the debate and it is absolutely does not guarantee at all that the current bill in the Senate with it current version of public option aka socialized medicine is going to pass. In fact as it stands now this current bill is assured to be defeated because the socialists are not going to get 60 votes for cloture to end the debate and hence they cannot move the bill for a final vote. In other words the bill in its current form is dead.

Senator Lieberman has said so many times, very clearly, and very adamantly that he is going to filibuster an end for the debate as long as it has any form of public option and he also said many times that he was going to vote to allow the start of the debate as he did today. That is why Senator Lieberman has been for weeks the most hated person among the left wing lunatics. Many people misunderstood and misinterpreted what he has been saying and thought that Lieberman did not follow through on what he said he was going to do.

Senator Olympia Snowe has said that she is going to filibuster an end to the debate on this current healthcare bill if it contains the current form of public option. She wants a trigger public option which in practical political terms a meaningless thing that will never be triggered. In fact today she even voted against the start of the debate.

Now some will say that if the socialists do not get 60 votes to end the debate and move the bill for a final vote then they are going to use reconciliation or the so called “nuclear option”. This is very unlikely because for the use of reconciliation the bill has to go back to the budget committee or finance committee where it is going to be watered down significantly and just includes the insignificant trigger public option or a trigger co-op. Even very left wing Senators like Tom Harkin said that reconciliation will be a very bad thing to do.

What is the most likely scenario?

Most probably they are going to be able to pass a healthcare bill that contains a trigger public option or a trigger co-op which in all practical form is a meaningless gesture because it is not going to be triggered at all in the future. This is the bill that will go to Obama to sign it into law, the democrat politicians and their media will celebrate but their left wing lunatic base will go insane in a way that will shock many. The left wing lunatic base wants a strong public option (aka socialized medicine) as a minimum and is very much against a trigger public option or a trigger co-op because they know very well that the trigger means absolutely nothing and when this happens the left wing lunatic base is going to explode in total anger against the democrat party.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: 111th; commiehealthcare; deathcare; democrats; healthcare; mccainordie; nothealthcare; obamacare; socializedmedicine
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To: mamelukesabre

What is your problem mame? Seriously your attitude is totally un-American. If you do not want to fight socialism then step on the side and let others fight this battle and defeat socialism, or to be more accurate stay on the side where you are now because you are not fighting at all.


101 posted on 11/21/2009 8:59:34 PM PST by jveritas (God Bless our brave troops)
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To: praepos

Sorry but I totally disagree. I fear all of it—the incremental march on our freedom, a reconcilliation, all of it.

Why do you think reconciliation will improve the bill? Once in place, additional provisions will be added as has been the case with all government programs, they expand, they don’t contract. More regulations, more taxes, etc.

What makes you think it will be nullified in 5 years. What bill has EVER been nullified? Why would you want any type of bill put in place.

As a conservative, I don’t want government taking over the health care segment of the economy, raising my taxes and telling me what doctor I can see, what I can have done, etc.


102 posted on 11/21/2009 9:00:11 PM PST by bushwon ("If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait till it is free! "~ PJ O'Rourke)
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To: ncalburt

100% correct. Since when bringing a bill to debate on the Senate floor is now considered an amazing victory? As you said in previous posts the fact the socialists have struggled so hard to get 60 votes to start the debate tells us the impossible task the socialists have to pass the bill in its current form.


103 posted on 11/21/2009 9:02:50 PM PST by jveritas (God Bless our brave troops)
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To: jveritas

Thanks for this thread. I’ve learned a lot.

The Dems LIVE for conservatives/Republicans to become discouraged, defeated, dejected, disheartened, discombobulated, and desperate. I refuse to comply with their wishes or to give them that pleasure.

We’ll see where it goes from here.


104 posted on 11/21/2009 9:04:40 PM PST by Freedom'sWorthIt (Obama's Deathcare ---- many will suffer and/or die unnecessarily.)
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To: jveritas

So you think Limbaugh, Levin, Beck, the conservative GOP Senators (all the GOP for that matter) and all the conservative pundits overreacted?

I am sorry, but the march of socialism inches forward incrementally, and this was an incremental move forward for the side of central planning. Many thot the the House would not pass a bill, but they did. Many thot Reid would not get the 60 votes, but he did.

I am not confident that we can predict the outcome of this with confidence.


105 posted on 11/21/2009 9:05:41 PM PST by bushwon ("If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait till it is free! "~ PJ O'Rourke)
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To: sickoflibs

This may sound nutty but to some extent on this - I place my faith in insurance companies. They survived during the Depression when banks failed. They are big, powerful and the are capitalists. A lot of them like Aetna in Joe Liberman’s state are big in health insurance.

If people think they are just going to roll over and die under a public option then you don’t know insurance companies.

I also think the Dems are not gonna screw with doctors. They are making FAR too many enemies with this bill.


106 posted on 11/21/2009 9:08:35 PM PST by Frantzie (Judge David Carter - democrat & dishonorable Marine like John Murtha.)
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt
The Dems LIVE for conservatives/Republicans to become discouraged, defeated, dejected, disheartened, discombobulated, and desperate. I refuse to comply with their wishes or to give them that pleasure.

Absolutely correct.

107 posted on 11/21/2009 9:09:26 PM PST by jveritas (God Bless our brave troops)
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To: jveritas

“There is still 60 votes required to end the debate and the socialists do not have the 60 votes as long as the bill contain the current version of the public option.”

They are roughly 1-2 votes away from attaining this goal. There is plenty to panic about due to the fact that we are totally beholden to politicians who continually deceive Americans with legislative gimmicks and trickery. They can be bought with gimmicks like “triggers” and “optouts”.

A RINO could bolt or Liebermann...if we hold this off it is likely by one vote, if we hold it off.

When do we panic? After we lose?

It’s too close not to be alarmed. The Dems are much better than GOP at these legislative games.

1 or 2 votes away from Socialism and the beginning of the end for our country...yep, nothing to panic here /sarc off.


108 posted on 11/21/2009 9:10:37 PM PST by rbmillerjr (It's us against them...the Establishment RINOs vs rank and file...Sarah Palin or bust)
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To: mockingbyrd

The whole thing reminds me of a Scientology youtube vid where the bearded guy who hates the cult (and who doesnt?) tries to interview one of the cult leader chicks on the sidewalk, meanwhile circus/carnival music is playing in the background from his partner. Like some bizarre twilight zone episode. I’m sure Biden in the last hour will pull off the mask and expose his true reptilian form.


109 posted on 11/21/2009 9:10:50 PM PST by Soothesayer9
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To: bushwon
Many thot the the House would not pass a bill, but they did. Many thot Reid would not get the 60 votes, but he did.

It seems those many did not analyze things correctly. Many have never doubted that the bill will pass the House and many have never doubted that the democrats will get 60 votes to START the debate which is a very routine thing to do but yet the socialists struggled to get their 60 votes.

110 posted on 11/21/2009 9:12:16 PM PST by jveritas (God Bless our brave troops)
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To: rbmillerjr

Be alarmed yes but PANIC is way overblown and stupid at this early stage.


111 posted on 11/21/2009 9:14:02 PM PST by jveritas (God Bless our brave troops)
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To: bushwon

“What bill has EVER been nullified? Why would you want any type of bill put in place.”

- This is exactly the point I was conveying to my parents. Medicare, SS, Dept of Education, etc..none of those worthless behemoths of drudgery have been recalled, despite the mountains of evidence that they do far more harm than good.

In the end their goal is to destroy social cohesion, both in and out of the military, break up families, foster extreme government dependence, and eradicate any desire to better oneself.


112 posted on 11/21/2009 9:14:52 PM PST by Soothesayer9
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To: praepos
by the way WELCOME to Free Republic.

I value Jveritas opinions very much...yours also seem along his line of thinking...

113 posted on 11/21/2009 9:18:56 PM PST by haircutter
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To: jveritas

It’s not early stage.

I know the legislative process. 1 or 2 votes away from ending debate...after that it’s over. There are no other major hurdles. The Conference bill will pass.


114 posted on 11/21/2009 9:19:38 PM PST by rbmillerjr (It's us against them...the Establishment RINOs vs rank and file...Sarah Palin or bust)
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To: bushwon

It would definitely destroy its comprehensive aspect—which is what’s most objectionable. As it now stands the bill doesn’t take effect till four years from now. But in five years it can be nullified since all reconciliation bills are subject to renewal after five years. Believe me, it will be easier to kill this under reconciliation than it would if the bill passed through normal channels.


115 posted on 11/21/2009 9:22:19 PM PST by praepos
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To: jveritas

Thanks for a very good and informative post and thread, jveritas.

If Lieberman breaks his much stated promise that he’ll vote with Repubs for filibuster after debate if a public option plan remains in the bill he’ll be run out of town on a rail. Joe would have no credibility at all and I’d bet money he’ll keep that promise.

We have to keep contacting senators and making noise and stop this fiasco.


116 posted on 11/21/2009 9:25:36 PM PST by jazusamo (But there really is no free lunch, except in the world of political rhetoric,.: Thomas Sowell)
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To: Frantzie

You miss the point. The problem is with the centralizing features of this bill. It regulates the insurance industry by making it impossible for them to profit without curtailing quality and raising premiums. It imposes mandates on businesses and on individuals. The public option is only one small aspect of this. It rations care generally and for seniors in particular.


117 posted on 11/21/2009 9:26:01 PM PST by praepos
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To: jazusamo
I really doubt very much my FRiend that Lieberman is going to break his promise and vote to end the debate with a public option in the bill.

Yes we need to keep the pressure and made our voices very well heard.

118 posted on 11/21/2009 9:28:10 PM PST by jveritas (God Bless our brave troops)
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To: praepos

Thanks for the concise analysis. Very easy to understand now. I wasn’t even aware about the 51 votes or how they come about.


119 posted on 11/21/2009 9:30:14 PM PST by Soothesayer9
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To: praepos

Welcome to Free Republic!

You’ve made many well reasoned posts.


120 posted on 11/21/2009 9:32:24 PM PST by jazusamo (But there really is no free lunch, except in the world of political rhetoric,.: Thomas Sowell)
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To: jveritas

I think there’s a lot of ignorance about how these things proceed and about the nature of politics in general. You have to know some of the histories of some of these people. For example, Dorgan comes from a conservative state. His governor is very popular and his term is expiring. There’s talk about his running against Dorgan next year. As it is, Dorgan polls behind the governor of N.D. How do you think he’s going to vote once cloture comes up, knowing he’ll get clobbered in an election if he votes for the bill? He might commit political suicide—but it’s not likely. Bayh is another from a very conservative state. So is Lincoln and so is Pryor. So is Ben Nelson. There’s a lot going on behind the scenes—this is far from a done deal—or an easy one. Check intrade. Last I looked, probability of passage was down to 3.9%.


121 posted on 11/21/2009 9:34:33 PM PST by praepos
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To: jveritas

I admire your optimism, but I don’t share it. I truly hope in future, you will come back and give me a big “I TOLD YOU SO.”

I would welcome it, but sadly, I don’t expect it.


122 posted on 11/21/2009 9:35:33 PM PST by bushwon ("If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait till it is free! "~ PJ O'Rourke)
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To: rbmillerjr

When do we panic? NEVER. WE FIGHT! Panic begets discouragement and defeat. We’re in a cold civil war. This is only one battle. We will win if we stick together and stay fighting mad. But avoid losing your cool, ever.


123 posted on 11/21/2009 9:37:04 PM PST by praepos
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To: jerry557

I appreciate any positives at all....really I do....but ALL of this communist agenda has been pushed thru while people said it would not happen...


124 posted on 11/21/2009 9:37:32 PM PST by cherry
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To: JimWayne
Let's look at this with fresh eyes by way of analogy.

It's the early 1940’s and Hitler is unstoppable. He is winning on all fronts and his juggernaut is piercing into Russia. He is destroying everything and anyone.

Moscow is in sight and the Nazi panzer divisions are on the outskirts about to crush the city. And then the overlooked anihilates Hitler. The Russian winter does what no army could do and the Nazis have to retreat and abandon the siege of Russia.

This thread reminds me of that scenario. The Democrats are the Nazis of the 1940’s unstopable and winning everything;yet, I believe that there is a Russian winter that is about to crush them.

It won't be the Republicans. It won't be the tea parties. It won't be the voters.

It will be the dollar. Currency markets are 100 times bigger then all governments put together. The dollar is collapsing at an unprecedented rate. Gold has gone from $700 last November to $1140 now which is a disaster of biblical proportions. It is heading to $2000 no doubt by January 2011 and then way way beyond that. This is making expenditures more and more difficult.

The collapse of the dollar is a day by day event now. the US government cannot stop it and has lost control of the economy. This condition is the democrat's Russian winter. This vote to start the debate is the equivalent of the Nazis being on the outskirts of Leningrad while the Russian winter is freezing everything in place and making victory impossible. Hitler's generals told him not to do it and wait for favorable weather. His hubris engineered his failure.

The democrats should have waited to do this health care bill. Their hubris is now engineering their demise. They are standing outside Moscow about to be defeated. Remember no one could imagine Hitler's demiseduring the Russian campaign. No one can imagine the democrat's demise and it is coming from the dollar's collapse.

The demise of the dollar will crush any hope of moving forward. This is now a day by day event and will dictate retreat to the democrats.

As they retreat, the vacuum is going to usher in the opposition which is not quite in focus just yet.

Pay attention to the currency markets. They are now the puppet masters not the democrats.

125 posted on 11/21/2009 9:38:35 PM PST by GilGil
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To: rbmillerjr

Bingo....way too much Prozac being used on this thread ;)

The Dems will ram anything through. Scale it down as far as need be to pass. By then it will be too late. They will simple add all the crap back on after it passes.

It’s a monster turd that will ensure a Euro-pee-on style socialism in America. Conservatives can kiss goodbye any hopes of being elected unless they are just as good at promising the electorate all the health care goodies that the DEMONCRATS are handing out. It’s a disaster. Freedom itself is a stake.


126 posted on 11/21/2009 9:39:23 PM PST by Electric Graffiti (Yonder stands your orphan with his gun)
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To: jveritas
I am very unimpressed by Mitch McConnell. Why Mitch did not throw cold water on Reid little pep rally by saying that the Reid hype over this vote is a joke and go on to say, we all knew the vote week long and I even let George go to Cleveland and then go on to say the fllor debate is going to be bloody. Good old nice Mitch says nothing.
Why Mitch let Bryd vote from his home in West Virgina is what really ticks me off.
Demand the guy is on the floor to vote or delay the vote another week!
McConnell has zero PR expertise and does not play
hardball !
127 posted on 11/21/2009 9:40:03 PM PST by ncalburt (San Fran Nan , Your Harvey Milk was gunned down by a fellow Dem-RAT)
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To: jveritas
Most probably they are going to be able to pass a healthcare bill that contains a trigger public option or a trigger co-op which in all practical form is a meaningless gesture because it is not going to be triggered at all in the future.

The public option has become too much of the focus of the opponents of Obamacare. We are missing the forest for the trees. If the Dems pass mandatory health insurance and enable government to set the standards as to what is acceptable health insurance, including compulsory insurance for pre-existing conditions, then they will have won. Private insurance premiums will continue to increase, which will result in a public demand for a government option.

128 posted on 11/21/2009 9:40:03 PM PST by kabar
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To: praepos

Tho perhaps all reconciled bills are subject to nullification after 5 years, what bills with this type of scope have ever been nullified? Seems at the very least we would have to hold conservative majorities in House, Senate, and Pres.

Tho it is good to be optimistic, I would have rather seen the bill defeated today, and hope it will be defeated at next vote—not implemented and then we try to nullify.


129 posted on 11/21/2009 9:40:03 PM PST by bushwon ("If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait till it is free! "~ PJ O'Rourke)
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To: JimWayne
Let's look at this with fresh eyes by way of analogy.

It's the early 1940’s and Hitler is unstoppable. He is winning on all fronts and his juggernaut is piercing into Russia. He is destroying everything and anyone.

Moscow is in sight and the Nazi panzer divisions are on the outskirts about to crush the city. And then the overlooked anihilates Hitler. The Russian winter does what no army could do and the Nazis have to retreat and abandon the siege of Russia.

This thread reminds me of that scenario. The Democrats are the Nazis of the 1940’s unstopable and winning everything;yet, I believe that there is a Russian winter that is about to crush them.

It won't be the Republicans. It won't be the tea parties. It won't be the voters.

It will be the dollar. Currency markets are 100 times bigger then all governments put together. The dollar is collapsing at an unprecedented rate. Gold has gone from $700 last November to $1140 now which is a disaster of biblical proportions. It is heading to $2000 no doubt by January 2011 and then way way beyond that. This is making expenditures more and more difficult.

The collapse of the dollar is a day by day event now. the US government cannot stop it and has lost control of the economy. This condition is the democrat's Russian winter. This vote to start the debate is the equivalent of the Nazis being on the outskirts of Leningrad while the Russian winter is freezing everything in place and making victory impossible. Hitler's generals told him not to do it and wait for favorable weather. His hubris engineered his failure.

The democrats should have waited to do this health care bill. Their hubris is now engineering their demise. They are standing outside Moscow about to be defeated. Remember no one could imagine Hitler's demiseduring the Russian campaign. No one can imagine the democrat's demise and it is coming from the dollar's collapse.

The demise of the dollar will crush any hope of moving forward. This is now a day by day event and will dictate retreat to the democrats.

As they retreat, the vacuum is going to usher in the opposition which is not quite in focus just yet.

Pay attention to the currency markets. They are now the puppet masters not the democrats.

130 posted on 11/21/2009 9:40:43 PM PST by GilGil
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To: jveritas

From my email

“National Right to Life to Obama and Reid:
You wanted debate? Now you’ll get debate –
on government-funded abortion.

WASHINGTON (November 21, 2009) — The U.S. Senate tonight barely cleared an initial 60-vote procedural hurdle, setting the stage for a 2,074-page health care bill, crafted by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nv.), to move forward to debate before the full Senate. The following statement was issued by the National Right to Life Committee (NRLC), the federation of right-to-life organizations in all 50 states, and may be attributed to NRLC Legislative Director Douglas Johnson.

As National Right to Life has previously noted, Senator Reid’s bill [on page 118] would authorize the federal government to pay for any and all abortions through a huge new federal health insurance program, the “public option,” and also to subsidize purchase of private plans that cover abortion on demand. President Obama and Reid know that the substance of these abortion-promoting policies is deeply unpopular, so they seek to conceal the reality with layers of contorted definitions and money-laundering schemes.

Obama and Reid wanted debate – so now they’ll get debate, on their cloaked provisions that would cover abortion on demand in proposed new government-run and government-subsidized insurance plans.

Obama and Reid are seeking to block enactment of the bipartisan Stupak-Pitts compromise, adopted by the U.S. House of Representatives on November 7 by a vote of 240-194. This amendment would prevent government funding of elective abortion through the proposed “public option,” and would also prevent federal subsidies from paying for private insurance plans that cover elective abortion.

During the weeks ahead, National Right to Life will continue to fight the efforts of President Obama and congressional Democratic leaders to cover abortion on demand in two huge new federal health programs. The Senate bill faces additional 60-vote hurdles in the future. Moreover, a courageous group of pro-life Democrats in the House of Representatives will oppose final approval of health care legislation if the Stupak-Pitts Amendment is gutted or removed.”


131 posted on 11/21/2009 9:40:46 PM PST by Sun (Pray that God sends us good leaders. Please say a prayer now.)
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To: praepos
Quite right. Look at this poll data for Blanche Lincoln. She's roadkill if she votes for HCR in any form.
132 posted on 11/21/2009 9:40:49 PM PST by Heatseeker (Elizabeth Cheney for President)
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To: bushwon
What bill has EVER been nullified? Why would you want any type of bill put in place.

Exactly. Checking the sign up date may put things in perspective.
133 posted on 11/21/2009 9:41:06 PM PST by Electric Graffiti (Yonder stands your orphan with his gun)
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To: praepos

This is not “only one battle”, this is THE battle.

...and 1 or 2 votes ends the battle. After that it is only to what degree we are Socialist.


134 posted on 11/21/2009 9:43:55 PM PST by rbmillerjr (It's us against them...the Establishment RINOs vs rank and file...Sarah Palin or bust)
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To: Will88

The 2006 amnesty bill, Hagel-Martinez, passed the Senate. It was the Rep controlled House that stopped it.


135 posted on 11/21/2009 9:44:37 PM PST by kabar
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To: rbmillerjr

“I know the legislative process. 1 or 2 votes away from ending debate...after that it’s over. There are no other major hurdles. The Conference bill will pass.”

Sure there are major hurdles. Pelosi and Reid are going to want to keep pro-choice language in the bill. That’ll put the House in a dither and pro-lifers will join Republicans to defeat the conference report. In the Senate Ben Nelson has stated he would vote against the bill if it’s pro-choice. And Pelosi is going to want a public option to appease her left flank demanding it. But that would kill the bill in the Senate. It’s impossible to see how the two chambers can even begin to see eye-to-eye at this point. But who knows?

And just for the record—even if it passes, do you think the states won’t challenge its constitutionality? There are at least ten states prepared to challenge its mandates by citing the 10th amendment. This would definitely be challenged in the SC if it passes. So this is only one skirmish in what’s really a civil war—a cold one.


136 posted on 11/21/2009 9:46:50 PM PST by praepos
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To: praepos
There will be a reconciliation between the House and Senate versions of the bill, i.e., when it goes to conference. The Dems control that process and any resulting bill will be put up for a vote in the House and Senate.

There will be a healtcare bill passed. The WH and the Dems need it to save face. The only question is what will be in it.

137 posted on 11/21/2009 9:52:03 PM PST by kabar
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To: jveritas

“Pataki is good as well.”

Pataki is a RINO, and I heard a political analyst say he hurt the GOP in New York State.


138 posted on 11/21/2009 9:54:56 PM PST by Sun (Pray that God sends us good leaders. Please say a prayer now.)
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To: GilGil

I agree with your point—that this is destroying the Left. Instead of making liberals stronger, it is exposing their radical agenda. Independents are shifting toward the GOP 2-1. In VA and NJ—a purple and a blue state—the dems were routed. In the generic party preference polls Republicans now out-poll the dems for the first time—by around six points. And Obama is finally below 50% in the most respected polls—which is the dangerous tipping point for a politician. You think moderate Democrats are not taking notice of this and that this won’t effect the health care debate? It’s a debacle—far worse than 1994.


139 posted on 11/21/2009 10:00:00 PM PST by praepos
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To: praepos

“Sure there are major hurdles.”

No. The only major hurdle is 60 votes to stop debate.

“Pelosi and Reid are going to want to keep pro-choice language in the bill. That’ll put the House in a dither and pro-lifers will join Republicans to defeat the conference report.”

In the end they will fall on their swords and pass the holy grail without abortion rights. They underestand that Socialized medicine is the end game for socialism.

“And Pelosi is going to want a public option to appease her left flank demanding it.”

They can peel off a vote or two with the illusion of “states can opt out” or “trigger” gimmicks. They can comeback to change this later. The important thing is the bill pass...they are socialists, they are committed to the cause.

“do you think the states won’t challenge its constitutionality?”

Once you start socialism, you can’s stop it without violent conflict. There alot of things we do now that our not constitutional.


140 posted on 11/21/2009 10:00:20 PM PST by rbmillerjr (It's us against them...the Establishment RINOs vs rank and file...Sarah Palin or bust)
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To: praepos

First - thanks for your posts. The chicken littles were getting out of hand. No I understand that the bill will essentially regulate insurance companies out of the healthcare business. It will harm care, harm doctors and other companies in the health industry.

Obama has been promising more business to the drug companies and special side deals but there is nothing positive for anyone in the industry.

I think the point I was trying to make dovetails with what you said about things going on in the background. These comapnies and their lobbyists are not going to take this lying down. Ditto for doctors.

I would bet a lot of companies in CT are going to make sure Dodd gets bounced in 2010. Liberman is not going to cross Aetna in CT. He is too smart for that. A few drug companies and Cigna in PA will remember Specter’s vote in 2010.

Other Dems that are more moderate in redder states? I would guess a lot of doctors and other people in the industry will be doing everything they can to get Lincoln, Nelson, fat Mary in LA and others fired in 2010 if thos comes close to passing.

Thanks again for your posts.


141 posted on 11/21/2009 10:00:27 PM PST by Frantzie (Judge David Carter - democrat & dishonorable Marine like John Murtha.)
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To: bushwon

“Tho perhaps all reconciled bills are subject to nullification after 5 years, what bills with this type of scope have ever been nullified? Seems at the very least we would have to hold conservative majorities in House, Senate, and Pres.”

Bush’s tax cuts are being nullified—the five years are up. The dems won’t renew. And you actually make my point. It’s looking very good that the dems are committing political suicide with this. We should be able to get our way in five years—if this thing should happen to pass by reconciliation.


142 posted on 11/21/2009 10:07:23 PM PST by praepos
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To: Frantzie

Here is Intrade

http://www.intrade.com/

http://data.intrade.com/graphing/jsp/closingPricesForm.jsp?tradeURL=https://www.intrade.com&contractId=683800

Up slightly to $4.0 but the trend is clearly down - in a BIG way. People will say big deal but futures markets and bookies are a big deal.

The bet is whether it gets passed by the end of the year. My feeling is if it does not get passed by Dec. 31, 2008 then it is dead. No way they will touch it in Jan 2010. Unemployment benefits for many people will be up by then. It will not be a pretty time.


143 posted on 11/21/2009 10:09:22 PM PST by Frantzie (Judge David Carter - democrat & dishonorable Marine like John Murtha.)
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To: Frantzie

“My feeling is if it does not get passed by Dec. 31, 2008 then it is dead.”

Correction Dec 21, 2009.


144 posted on 11/21/2009 10:12:30 PM PST by Frantzie (Judge David Carter - democrat & dishonorable Marine like John Murtha.)
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To: rbmillerjr

I agree with your points somewhat, though there’s been a very strong pro-choice push to put their language back in. Keeping the Stupak amendment and the trigger option would be the intelligent course—since Pelosi can strong arm the libs in her chamber to accept the inevitable and since passage is impossible in the Senate unless this is done. But both Reid and Pelosi are ideologues—so who knows?

Nelson has plenty of other complaints. So does Bayh—who wrote an op-ed piece just the other day complaining about the huge deficits we’re facing. Then there’s Dorgan and Lincoln facing tough elections—and Warner who’s a former businessman and understands the dangers of deficit spending. Besides, he comes from VA where his side was clobbered recently. And there’s Webb, also from VA—and so it goes.


145 posted on 11/21/2009 10:19:01 PM PST by praepos
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To: praepos

Hopefully we can keep the vote to close debate at 58 or 59.

It wont be easy for them, but it’s going to be a nailbiter either way.


146 posted on 11/21/2009 10:22:24 PM PST by rbmillerjr (It's us against them...the Establishment RINOs vs rank and file...Sarah Palin or bust)
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To: GilGil
The collapse of the dollar is a day by day event now. the US government cannot stop it and has lost control of the economy.

Some believe this is also an engineered eventuality created to destroy Capitalism and allow Obama, Pelosi and Reid to recreate the USA in the Socialist image.

147 posted on 11/21/2009 10:26:31 PM PST by higgmeister ( In the Shadow of The Big Chicken!)
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To: All

Doesn’t MA have a special election for Kennedy’s seat???


148 posted on 11/21/2009 10:28:15 PM PST by ak267
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To: praepos

I totally agree. There is a lot of local politics being at stake here in many states and districts.


149 posted on 11/21/2009 10:29:08 PM PST by jveritas (God Bless our brave troops)
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To: praepos

A couple of other upbeat points:

David Broder, the dean of liberal journalists, will come out with a Washington Post column tomorrow that tears the bill to shreds for its fiscal irresponsibility. It’s a devastating piece.

Bonnie Erbe, another liberal journalist who writes for US News and World Report, came out with a scathing denouncement of the deal that paid Landrieu hundreds of millions to vote yes to proceed.

So the liberal media is not altogether on this. Some important voices are being raised at a critical time—and they carry weight with a lot of politicians. Broder is especially regarded highly.


150 posted on 11/21/2009 10:41:10 PM PST by praepos
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