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The ceremony at the Bois Ca´man (Haiti and voodu and Robertson)
Ghost of a Fela ^ | January 14, 2010 | Anthropologist to the Stars!

Posted on 01/14/2010 12:37:41 PM PST by La Lydia

Call Pat Robertson crazy or, worse yet, insensitive for his remarks following the earthquake in Haiti. To a reasonable person (by which I mean an NPR listener's self-concept), the notion Tuesday's 7.3 magnitude earthquake was punishment for a 200 year old pact with the Devil sounds crazy or, worse yet, insensitive. This perhaps particularly so to a reasonable person recalling Robertson's remarks along similar lines following 9/11. The trouble for critics of Robertson's insensitivity (I have seen no sympathy for the devil troubling him), is that Haitians say much the same thing themselves.

The commonly accepted date for the start of Haiti's slave revolution against the French is August 22, 1791, the date a voodoo priest named Dutty Boukman presided over a ceremony at Bois Caïman. Whether or not such a ceremony ever took place is beside the point, it is an important part of Haiti's national mythology and, I would argue, Haiti's national mystique.p>

Most reasonable people would be skeptical as to the efficacy of Boukman's ritual in its own terms. This is because most reaonable claim to respect cultural difference but actually think voodoo is superstitious bullshit. Academics would attribute the power of Boukman's rite - and its memory - to revolutionary theatre not to divine - let alone infernal - intervention. That most Haitains really do believe in voodoo does not trouble reasonable people in the slightest; reasonable people could not care less what Haitians think about anything, let alone a 200 year old voodoo rite.

What reasonable people do care about is pretending to celebrate religious diversity but actually kicking religious diversity if it is of the Christian variety. Pat Robertson's real crime was aesthetic. If he had expressed much the same views while sacrificing a chicken to the gods he would have gotten a pass, even a pat on the head.

Here is what bothers me about the criticism leveled at Pat Robertson by reasonable people, including the criticism off all too many reasonable conservatives: If it is fine for Western academics to celebrate "the voodoo revolution" as part of Haiti's rich historical tapestry, to stage reenactments of Boukman's voodoo ceremony in New York as revolutionary theatre, it seems turnabout is fair play should a Bible believing evangelical have the temerity to identify vodoo spirits with demons and a voodoo ceremony as a demonic rite. Haitian's themselves have traditionally made this identification themselves, albeit as a syncretic borrowing of European devil imagery into their West African spirit worship.

By all means dismiss Robertson's beliefs as nonsense if you will but do not blame the man for doing what the Left cannot quite manage, taking Haitians at their word about their own history. Jihadis everywhere are familiar with the problem; no matter how many times they try to tell us why they want us killed or converted the Left insists these doctors and engineers and billionnaire's sons are revolutionary proletarians with a colourful religious vernacular. Only a few latter day Crusaders have the courtesy to respect Muslim beliefs concerning holy war for what they are and to take jihadi statements as to their intentions at face value.

To place Robertson's analysis in context, tell me how the Left's version of witchcraft - vulgar economic reductionism - is any less condescending, any less inappropriate to the ongoing horror for survivors.

Haiti's cultural traditions also have their part to play in making the standard of living there lower than anywhere in the Caribbean and most of Sub-Saharan Africa. The prevailing belief in voodoo continues to mean that many Haitians reject modern medicine in favour of more traditional practices. A visit to the village witch doctor is for many Haitian parents the first port of call when their child falls ill. Without access to clean water and without treatment for basic illnesses the child mortality rate in Haiti is one in five, with diarrhoea, malaria and TB the most common causes of death.

Ironically for the only country ever to have had a successful slave revolt, child enslavement is also a culturally accepted practice in Haiti.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: 1791; 700club; beauvoir; christian; devilpact; donate; donations; earthquake; evangelical; haiti; haitianearthquake; haitiearthquake; haitiquake; haitiquake2010; maxbeauvoir; operationblessing; pactwithdevil; paganworship; patrobertson; robertson; suprememaster; syncreticreligions; voodoo; voodooceremony; voodoosuprememaster; voudon; zombie; zombies
So, theoretically, Robertson was on target.
1 posted on 01/14/2010 12:37:42 PM PST by La Lydia
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To: Free ThinkerNY

Babalu ping


2 posted on 01/14/2010 12:39:09 PM PST by La Lydia
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To: La Lydia

“Whether or not such a ceremony ever took place is beside the point,”

Whether something happens or not is always superfluous to the story


3 posted on 01/14/2010 12:42:38 PM PST by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: La Lydia
Here is what bothers me about the criticism leveled at Pat Robertson by reasonable people, including the criticism off all too many reasonable conservatives: If it is fine for Western academics to celebrate "the voodoo revolution" as part of Haiti's rich historical tapestry, to stage reenactments of Boukman's voodoo ceremony in New York as revolutionary theatre, it seems turnabout is fair play should a Bible believing evangelical have the temerity to identify vodoo spirits with demons and a voodoo ceremony as a demonic rite. Haitian's themselves have traditionally made this identification themselves, albeit as a syncretic borrowing of European devil imagery into their West African spirit worship.

Thank you so much for posting this! I feel exactly the same way. Secularists (and even some conservtives) who attack "wacky" American Biblical Fundamentalists automatically give a pass to everyone and everything else under the sun because it's "quaint" and "we don't have the right to judge." Hypocrites.

4 posted on 01/14/2010 12:42:59 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Koh 'amar HaShem, "Shallach `ammi, veya`avduni!")
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To: La Lydia

Ouch! Did think I’d see anyone defending the Rev’s remarks. But he does have millions of followers. How sad...


5 posted on 01/14/2010 12:43:43 PM PST by TheDon
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To: La Lydia

I’m not a fan of Robertson so have not followed this story closely at all, but from what I heard he just mentioned the “pact with the devil”. Did he actually say the earthquake was punishment, or has the MSM just inferred this from his statement?


6 posted on 01/14/2010 12:44:55 PM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: La Lydia
No, Robertson is not on target. Voodoo is not Satan worship, it is the remnant of a West African primitive religion, similar to the beliefs of some in Cuba, Louisiana and Brazil. Where is exists it is generally combined with Christianity.

Haiti is over 90% Christian.

7 posted on 01/14/2010 12:45:09 PM PST by colorado tanker
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To: La Lydia
Beliefs are powerful things. The Haitians are, by and large, so uneducated and poor, they might as well be living in a remote part of darkest Africa during the Colonial era.

What is truly evil is that the grinding poverty has been largely ignored, tolerated by corrupt Haitian leaders, and exploited by the colonists. If the “pact” was indeed made, is irrelevant as what the Haitians “believe” through ignorance and suffering is what has to a great extent limited the progress of that nation (just as it has here).

The fact that another natural disaster has heaped more misery to an already suffering people is simply the event that triggered a response in those who have blithely ignored the existence of the conditions in the Western Hemisphere. What is really the mark of the devil is the indifference and that is happening throughout the Western Hemisphere (and the US/Canada/Venezuela, Mexico, Cuba, Brazil -- countries that could certainly spare a dime or could have in the past).

8 posted on 01/14/2010 12:53:03 PM PST by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: P8riot
With the MSM whether Robertson said anything in particular is always the question. Today's reporters don't know enough about anything to comment on it unless it's Christianity, a topic about which none of them know the slightest.

This business of making a "deal with the devil" has a counterpart in the expression "Faustian bargain".

More recently the idea popped up in two Presidential campaigns as "devil is in the details", which, as I recall, was perfectly acceptable to the Leftwingtards and their running dog lackeys ('cause their boy won eh).

Regarding using voodoo rather than modern medicine I have the same complaint about the Church of the First Born. Bill Clinton's mother ran away from those people in fact ~ his baby-daddy was an elder in the congregation in Hope, Arkansas.

Obama himself has plenty of relatives over on the Dunham side of his family who are still into Church of the First Born nonsense, and his baby-daddy's family even got involved in Mau-Mau, and that, as I recall, involved folks murdering other folks and then drinking blood out of their skulls.

And Pat Robertson said what?

9 posted on 01/14/2010 12:54:05 PM PST by muawiyah ("Git Out The Way")
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To: colorado tanker

Lot of voodoo and Santería in Colorado? I know there is some Santería in Denver. Voodoo is a syncretic religion, as I noted in my keywords. That is, it is a synthesis or combination of the polytheistic pagan beliefs and practices of several West African tribes, and Roman Catholicism. Some of those African “gods” are identified with the dark side. I think the best way to describe the religious practices of most Haitians would be as a cake. The frosting, which covers most of the cake, is RC, but the cake itself is voodoo.


10 posted on 01/14/2010 12:56:43 PM PST by La Lydia
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To: Constitutions Grandchild
There are several times in their history where most educated Haitians would agree that somebody made a deal with the devil ~ for example, getting beyond the war for independence (and the abolition of slaery), they sought diplomatic recognition from the rest of the world ~ much of it slaveholding ~ and didn't get it.

So, they agreed to pay the French a pricey indemnity for their loss of slaves in Haiti ~ in return they got diplomatic recognition as well as access to international trade. The French moved back in to run the sugar business, and the country got poorer and poorer as it paid France the huge indemnity over 100 years.

Along the way they found out that folks who joke about "Poor Mexico, so far from God and so near the United States" weren't really joking.

The US was "invited in" (however that happens) and next thing you know we occupied the country for several decade. They didn't get better.

We've occupied it several other times as well and each time they've managed to sink further into poverty, disease and degradation.

Now the earthquake ~ whatever problems they had they just got a bunch more.

No doubt they'll agree to all sorts of things and Obama will make all sorts of promises, and it's dollars to doughnuts Haiti will find itself worse off than if they'd simply told the foreign devils to stay away!

11 posted on 01/14/2010 1:01:19 PM PST by muawiyah ("Git Out The Way")
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To: La Lydia

I do believe Santeria as practiced in Cuba INCLUDES Hindu elements.


12 posted on 01/14/2010 1:02:28 PM PST by muawiyah ("Git Out The Way")
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To: La Lydia

The Bible is pretty clear that worship offered to pagan deities, such as those of voudu, actually goes to demonic beings. This is what Paul said, and he was speaking primarily of the Roman/Greek deities.

Anyone who wishes is welcome to not believe this, but it is what the Bible says.


13 posted on 01/14/2010 1:06:37 PM PST by Sherman Logan ("The price of freedom is the toleration of imperfections." Thomas Sowell)
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To: La Lydia

Pat Roberrson wrote a book about the history of the New Woprld Order twenty some odd years ago that was lavishly footnoted, beautifully written, and a book every person should read. Underestimate Pastor Robertson’s intellectual abilities at your own peril. His servitude to God is rarely equalled.
I cannot recommend his book highly enough.


14 posted on 01/14/2010 1:08:21 PM PST by Paperdoll ( Hunter/Palin or Palin/Hunter 2012)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I don’t know much about the Haitian culture but I know a little about Christianity. As a Christian at the very least prayers should be offered for the suffering of these people. If you can give more help or comfort that would be great. I see nothing Christian in blaming their suffering on the sins of their Fathers.


15 posted on 01/14/2010 1:09:51 PM PST by Barb4Bush (God bless Glenn Beck!)
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To: La Lydia

His timing may have been off, but if you study Haiti’s political history, it is horrifying.

If you understand the relationship between liberty, prosperity, and rule of law, it should be no surprise that Haiti goes from horror to horror and never gets any better.


16 posted on 01/14/2010 1:09:54 PM PST by marron
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To: colorado tanker
Voodoo is not Satan worship

It is to Christians. Conjuring demons and spirits is specifically prohibited in the Bible.

17 posted on 01/14/2010 1:17:21 PM PST by Sir Gawain
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To: La Lydia

Now I’ve got another reason to think Pat Robertson is senile. How can you not like a guy named Dutty Boukman?


18 posted on 01/14/2010 1:18:48 PM PST by Heatseeker (Elizabeth Cheney for President)
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To: La Lydia

Haiti’s main problem, IMHO, has nothing to do with religion. Strangely, I think it has to do with Haiti becoming independent too soon in the grand scheme of things, in 1804. Had Haiti remained a French colony, say, to 1962, when Jamaica got it’s independence it would have gotten from the French a developed infrastructure and much stronger institutions.


19 posted on 01/14/2010 1:19:40 PM PST by colorado tanker
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To: La Lydia

As this article suggests, there is a fair amount of fact and history to justify what Robertson said.

Where I have difficulty is in his calmly explaining that this is why God did it. As a Christian, I have religious problems with that. In the first place, no one but God fully understands all of the reasons for His providential acts. As the saying goes, He works in mysterious ways.

I don’t think there’s any question that there’s a lot of evil in Haiti. Violence, witchcraft, voodoo, animal sacrifices, and dealings with demonic forces. Probably some human sacrifice, as in parts of Africa. Also plenty of tyrannical governments. Most Haitians are poor for a reason—because their culture and society are dysfunctional and, yes, often evil.

But just because some leader may have made a pact with the Devil 200 years ago doesn’t necessarily mean that the country suffers under God’s curse today. Yes, it suffers in part because so many of their leaders have been selfish and evil. Children suffer for the sins of their parents because the parents leave a mess behind them. But God doesn’t keep them that way for centuries—they choose to keep themselves that way.

As for the earthquake, it was a natural event. Was there some other reason why God may have let or enabled it to happen now? I don’t know. But I wouldn’t want to risk saying that I am in on God’s secret plans, and know why He did it. To me, that would be a foolish sin of pride.

I don’t think Robertson means to gloat over this disaster. Rather, he means to warn them that they’d better straighten out. But he is presuming to know things that no human being can know.


20 posted on 01/14/2010 1:41:06 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Barb4Bush

Unfortunately, that’s not what the Bible says. Throughout the Bible you will see many of examples of those who deliberately chose not to obey God and worship him. In fact, many civilizations were completely destroyed for their hatered of God.

I do agree that we should be praying for these people, but praying that God takes this situation and gives glory to His name and that those people repent of their sins and turn to Him for their salvation.

Exodus 20:5 - “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,”

Deuteronomy 5:9 - “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,”

Exodus 34:6-7 - “Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”


21 posted on 01/14/2010 1:42:15 PM PST by I_Publius
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To: Cicero

“...no one but God fully understands all of the reasons for His providential acts.”

.
That says it all — in our arrogance we try to bring the infinite God down to our finite level of thinking.


22 posted on 01/14/2010 2:14:02 PM PST by 353FMG (Save the Planet -- Eliminate Socialism)
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To: Sir Gawain

Haitian’s worship evil spirits while hiding under the mask of Christianity.

When the Voodoo priest Boukman prayed in 1791, he sought to “banish out the God of the White man” and bring in their god.. He said their god is good and the “God of the White” man commits crimes.


23 posted on 01/14/2010 2:43:10 PM PST by bushpilot1
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To: La Lydia

Not theoretical. Not by a long shot.


24 posted on 01/14/2010 3:21:07 PM PST by naturalized
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To: La Lydia

I cringed when I heard him, too, but Pat Robertson did not make this up.

Aristide tried to renew the pact in 1991, but it was broken by missionaries in 1997.

Interesting historical article from 2004 with many links.

http://www.americandaily.com/article/95


25 posted on 01/14/2010 3:49:57 PM PST by Katydidnt (Congress: "Not one dime added to the deficit?" All taxes add to MY deficit!)
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To: Katydidnt

That is fascinating. Thank you so much for posting. You ought to post that article in News for people’s info.


26 posted on 01/14/2010 4:09:40 PM PST by Red Boots
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To: colorado tanker
Voodoo is not Satan worship, it is the remnant of a West African primitive religion, similar to the beliefs of some in Cuba, Louisiana and Brazil. Where is exists it is generally combined with Christianity.

The tribes of the Old Testament kept combining pagan idol worship and superstitious sacrificial rituals borrowed from other religions with their true faith too. If memory serves me correctly, God was less than approving.

27 posted on 01/14/2010 5:16:07 PM PST by conimbricenses
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To: Katydidnt
Interesting historical article from 2004 with many links. http://www.americandaily.com/article/95

Interesting the part about how much the Clinton's helped Aristide hold onto power, and it struck me that they must have taught him rules for radicals too. Note how he: dissolved the army, and set up his own domestic security forces; did bank swindling to destroy the savings of the middle class and then pitted the rich against the poor; was heavily involved in the drug trade; these are all straight out of Alyinsky's Rules.And of course he would declare voodoo a national religion, as the book and techniques are dedicated to satan.

So the Clinton's, and Obama (remember his actions on behalf of his cousin in Kenya), and other students of Alynski have, practiced and honed their Alynski techniques on other nations, in preparation for their attempt on this one.

28 posted on 01/14/2010 5:24:18 PM PST by Red Boots
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To: bushpilot1
When the Voodoo priest Boukman prayed in 1791, he sought to “banish out the God of the White man” and bring in their god.. He said their god is good and the “God of the White” man commits crimes.

________________________________

Reliable source please.

29 posted on 01/14/2010 5:29:31 PM PST by wtc911 ("How you gonna get down that hill?")
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To: Katydidnt

bookmark


30 posted on 01/14/2010 5:38:32 PM PST by DocRock (All they that TAKE the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52 Gun grabbers beware.)
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To: AppyPappy

“Whether something happens or not is always superfluous to the story”

Like Washington cutting down the cherry tree!


31 posted on 01/14/2010 5:40:53 PM PST by EDINVA
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To: wtc911

http://books.google.com.ph/books?id=mocjPF11zKoC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=dutty+boukman+voodoo&source=bl&ots=b5Rs7vc_Gx&sig=BzcwDgXeeNW1GCry2zUyYr5p1sk&hl=tl&ei=fZJPS76YAYr-6QOU4pjCCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CDoQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=dutty%20boukman%20voodoo&f=false


32 posted on 01/14/2010 7:58:21 PM PST by bushpilot1
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To: bushpilot1
I said, "reliable source". The unresearched one you put up states, and I quote, "Whether or not the ceremony actually took place doesn't matter".

There is no record of any such ceremony. There is no record of any iron pig statue anywhere. The hundreds of Haitians whom I know and have known for years laugh at this nonsense.

But, you go right ahead and keep pushing it, as long as it makes you feel like a good Christian.

33 posted on 01/15/2010 5:51:39 AM PST by wtc911 ("How you gonna get down that hill?")
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To: wtc911

Wow..what got you all fired up. No need to attack me. Calm yourself. The author is from Haiti and it appears a credible source. The way you act there is no Voodoo.


34 posted on 01/15/2010 6:37:57 AM PST by bushpilot1
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To: wtc911
The author states "If we read "The Black Jacobins", C.L.R James historical account of the rise of Toussaint L'Ouverture and Haiti's Slave Rebellion, we find that the blacks of Saint-Domingue believed in the existence of a supreme god that Boukman invoked during the Bois Caiman ceremony." The author gives a very detailed account of Voodoo worship in Haiti, including first hand interviews of Voodoo Black Magic. He states there is a Haitian proverb 'Yon jou pou dyab, yon jou pou Bondye' (A time for the devil and a time for the Good Lord.) Photobucket
35 posted on 01/15/2010 6:57:47 AM PST by bushpilot1
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To: wtc911

“On July 8 1998, the Ministry of Culture issued an order prohibiting the 3 Protestants from assembling in the Bois Caiman area. The three Protestant leaders were arrested on Aug. 2 when trying to defy the order.”

“The origin of the 13-year Haitian revolution is traced to a voudou ceremony held at Bois Caiman, near the northern city of Cap Haitien, on the night of Aug. 13-14, 1791 and presided over by a slave and voudou priest named Boukman. Now 207 years later, a band of right-wing Protestants has launched an evangelical crusade to posthumously “convert” Boukman to Christianity.”

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/520.html


36 posted on 01/15/2010 7:06:56 AM PST by bushpilot1
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To: wtc911
Photobucket Photobucket
37 posted on 01/15/2010 7:22:36 AM PST by bushpilot1
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To: La Lydia

The “inconvenient truth” is that it was black racism that got Haiti in this mess.

Papa Doc Duvalier used the black peoples’ resentment of the lighter-skinned Creoles and Mulattos that comprised a good portion of Haiti’s productive class. He formed the Tonton Macoutes to terrorize these people, and distributed the spoils amongst them. As a result, most of Haiti’s middle and upper classes either were massacred, or left the country. The resulting brain drain is the reason Haiti is where it is today.

Before Duvalier, Haiti, while by no means a paradise, at least had a working economy and while people were considered poor, they weren’t starving.


38 posted on 01/15/2010 7:32:46 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: bushpilot1
Of course there is voodoo, heck, I could find some form of voodoo or santeria or ju-ju in just about any American city. Just walk into any 'botanica' in any Spansish neighborhood. But, in Haiti there is much much more Catholicism.

The whole thrust of the "good Christians" on these threads is that there is some truth to a recent legend of some Haitians making a pact with Satan two hundred years ago and that pact is the reason that Haitian babies were crushed to death in an earth quake.

There is a certian brand of ugliness of spirit in this.

39 posted on 01/15/2010 10:51:20 AM PST by wtc911 ("How you gonna get down that hill?")
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