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Greece loses EU voting power in blow to sovereignty
London Daily Telegraph, U.K. ^ | Tuesday February 16, 2010 | Ambrose Evans-Pritchard

Posted on 02/16/2010 1:04:10 PM PST by jpl

The council of EU finance ministers said Athens must comply with austerity demands by March 16 or lose control over its own tax and spend policies altogether. It if fails to do so, the EU will itself impose cuts under the draconian Article 126.9 of the Lisbon Treaty in what would amount to economic suzerainty.

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News
KEYWORDS: eu; europe; europeanunion; greece; socialismsucks
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To: Gapplega

Polish? My favorite apart from Lech is King Jan III Sobieski who showed his tuff killing muslim vampires at the Battle of Vienna

God Bless the Polish people...all except the Commie Polish that is.

Did the Poles get any reparations from the Krauts?


151 posted on 02/16/2010 6:50:20 PM PST by eleni121 (For Jesus did not give us a timid spirit , but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline)
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To: eleni121

The Poles have had a difficult history; sometimes it’s better to forgive. My mother (100% first generation American) said to me after I had first read about Nazi atrocities against Poland (this was in the ‘70s): “you know, that was a long time ago and most of the people who did that are dead. Germans today had nothing to do with it, no point blaming them for it.” That’s a healthy way to deal with history, I think. Otherwise, hatred continues unchecked.

I speak German (ein bisschen); I read it much better than I speak it.

The Poles did get Breslau (Worclaw) and Danzig (Gdansk) among other cities after the borders lurched westward. And then they suffered another 45years under the USSR’s heel.


152 posted on 02/16/2010 7:07:47 PM PST by Gapplega
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To: Hawthorn
Even today, some 90 years after their countries gained independence via the Treaty of Versailles, people in the Balkans will tell you in the most forceful terms that Austrian rule was almost as bad as Turkish rule!

Absolutely - My wife's family (Catholics all) fled Austrian occupation there in the late nineteenth centruy after Austrians started executing local civilians as punishment/deterrent against supporting nationalism in a neighbouring district.

During their flight, at one pioint they hid from a patrol checking the house they were in but had no time to remove the baby (less than one year old) from the cradle. A young Austrian trooper spitted it casually and the patrol wandered off, knowing the family would be nearby but not too worried about finding them now they'd delivered this "lesson".

153 posted on 02/16/2010 7:08:26 PM PST by Androcles (All your typos are belong to us)
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To: jpl
This is what happens when a conglomerate takes over the sovereignty of another country, company or state. We must learn a lesson from this situation in Europe!
154 posted on 02/16/2010 7:35:52 PM PST by LUV W (DIMs?......start packin'--you're fired!)
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To: Gapplega
I agree to a point. Germans have not made good their reparations to the millions of innocents they killed. They continue their secular methods in dealing with Christians forcing some to emigrate. They are overly sentimental and defensive about their identity and recent films show that. They bombed Christian people in Serbia during Easter season a few years back in the name of domination.

F ‘em.

They have not learned a damn thing IMO.

155 posted on 02/16/2010 7:37:15 PM PST by eleni121 (For Jesus did not give us a timid spirit , but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline)
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To: Red Badger

Good one.


156 posted on 02/16/2010 7:55:04 PM PST by dr_who
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To: jpl
"Wow. What a rotten situation Europe finds itself in."

Yeah, but I'm not so sure this is a bad thing. I can think of several U.S. states that could use a smackdown like that.
157 posted on 02/16/2010 7:55:15 PM PST by RightOnTheLeftCoast (Obama: running for re-election in '12 or running for Mahdi now? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi])
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To: jpl
In other words, the EU is truly a nation state. Greece, and all the other EU members, are no more than puppets.

If this comes to pass, things will get interesting over on that side of the pond.

158 posted on 02/16/2010 7:56:22 PM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: the invisib1e hand
"Hey, maybe they could call on Soros! He's Greek!"

He's a Hungarian Nazi collaborator who ratted out his own people. Truth. A viler creature does not walk this earth.
159 posted on 02/16/2010 7:57:32 PM PST by RightOnTheLeftCoast (Obama: running for re-election in '12 or running for Mahdi now? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi])
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To: jpl

Sparta conquers Athens once more.


160 posted on 02/16/2010 8:03:13 PM PST by dr_who
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To: Red Badger
1914: Wow. What a rotten situation Europe finds itself in. 1932: Wow. What a rotten situation Europe finds itself in. 1945: Wow. What a rotten situation Europe finds itself in. 1973: Wow. What a rotten situation Europe finds itself in. 2010: Wow. What a rotten situation Europe finds itself in.

You left out the Dark Ages, The Black Death, The Inquisition, And The Hundred Years War.

The "Golden Years"

161 posted on 02/16/2010 8:09:45 PM PST by left that other site (Your Mi'KMaq Paddy Whacky Bass Playing Biker Buddy)
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To: jpl
1) They could leave the eurozone. Of course, the large economies of Europe do not want that to happen.

2) They could stay in the eurozone but accept the loss of sovereignty, and be forced to make cuts in spending.

3) They could stay in the eurozone, keep their sovereignty, but sell territory to the larger economies of Europe in exchange for a bailout.

162 posted on 02/16/2010 8:11:55 PM PST by Frohickey
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To: Ben Mugged
Leading Greece on to think they could get away with it...

Cheers!

163 posted on 02/16/2010 8:33:48 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: rintense

California is our Greece. They are running out of money and will our feds make the other states cover for them or force them to make cuts?

I hope it’s the latter.


164 posted on 02/16/2010 8:44:42 PM PST by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: All

If the crisis in Greece does not force them into fiscal responsibility—THEN NOTHING WILL!!

I have to clear up a few things about Greece in WWII. When Mussolini invaded in 1940, the British did offer help. KEEP IN MIND that the Brits were fighting in north Africa, had other commitments around the world, and had to protect their home island (Battle of Britain ended shortly before the invasion). Air units were sent and British forces were on Crete. Greece asked for a large British force to help against the Italians, but the Brits simply did not have enough troops to send to Greece. They offered a small force, but Greek dictator Metaxas refused realizing that such a small force would make no difference and quite possibly provoke the Germans into attacking.

Metaxas tried very, VERY hard not provoke any German move into Greece (unknown to him, Germany began planning to aid Mussolini when it became clear the Italians screwed up). After Metaxas died, the new Prime Minister accepted Britain’s offer for a small ground force on the mainland.

Britain did contribute at sea. The Italians never were able to fully exploit their naval superiority over the small Greek navy thanks to the Royal Navy triumphs at Taranto and Matapan.

It’s not fair to complain about the small contribution Britain made to aid Greece. It would have been great had they done so. Britain had too many commitments elsewhere and even if more troops were sent, I highly doubt that would have stopped the Germans.


165 posted on 02/16/2010 8:52:05 PM PST by eekitsagreek (Hey, hey! You can ask iJ!)
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To: C19fan

The other big problem I see is that there’s no one government that can really be held accountable for what happens to the Euro. In our country, politicians, like Carter, who spend like crazy to buy votes generally have to face the music when the dollar goes in the toilet (at least, I hope this is still the case).

When Greek politicians do this, they can try and count on the rest of Europe to pick up the slack fiscally. You basically get a tragedy of the commons with inflation.


166 posted on 02/16/2010 9:53:20 PM PST by The Pack Knight (Duty, Honor, Country)
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To: eleni121

In my travels throughout Greece in my younger days, I never met a kinder people who were more friendly to me as an American that the Greeks, and I can compare them personally to most other countries in Europe and the old Soviet Union.

The Poles were a very close second, IMHO.

God bless them and, as with all of us in the cooming months and years, I hope they figure it all out and once again live in peace and harmony and in balance in all things political and economic.


167 posted on 02/16/2010 10:23:03 PM PST by LachlanMinnesota
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To: jpl
economic suzerainty

Sounds serious...

168 posted on 02/16/2010 10:34:23 PM PST by April Lexington (Study the constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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To: for-q-clinton
California is our Greece

What if Washington trades California for $14 trillion in Chinese held US bonds???

169 posted on 02/16/2010 10:38:55 PM PST by April Lexington (Study the constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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To: jpl

marker


170 posted on 02/16/2010 11:13:36 PM PST by JDoutrider
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To: MinorityRepublican; Red Badger
What happened in 1973? It can’t be Munich.

The Oil Shock, caused by the Oil Embargo that OPEC imposed on the West in punishment for assistance given to Israel during the October 1973 Yom Kippur War.

As a direct result, the-powers-that-be in Europe capitulated, and began the march toward becoming Eurabia, with a foreign and domestic policy favorable to the Islamic world.

That meant favoring the Palestinians over the Israelis and permitting the immigration of millions of Arab Muslims into the heart of Europe.

1973 changed Europe forever, and set in motion the likely prospect of a bloody civil war sometime this century that will extend to the Middle East and Islamic Asia.

171 posted on 02/16/2010 11:23:32 PM PST by happygrl (Continuing to predict that 0bama will resign)
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To: rintense

Greece is run by George Papandreou, a marxist. The terrorists are marxists (and were the most successful killers to avoid capture in Europe. The ETA, BMG and IRA were rolled up long before any dent was made in the Greek terrorists).

Don’t expect “all quiet on the Greek front” to happen. The Left won’t let it, even if they have to attack and kill both the ruling marxists and the capitalists.


172 posted on 02/16/2010 11:23:34 PM PST by ToTheMax
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To: eekitsagreek

Glad to see that someone knows their WW2 European/Med. Theater of Operations history.

The British, using torpedo planes, sank almost the whole Italian fleet at Taranto Bay, thus ending a potential threat to the US, British and French fleets (Free French) in Northern Africa.

Much of the French Vichy fleet was destroyed in No. Africa, possibly at Oran. It too was a real threat to the Allies.

If I recall history correctly, the British loss a lot of troops on one of the Greek islands, probably Crete. After that, they had almost no major military presence in the area for years.

Correct me or add more information if you want to.


173 posted on 02/16/2010 11:29:17 PM PST by ToTheMax
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To: April Lexington

I’ll trade most of California for some good crispy egg rolls, wonton soup, and Sweet & Sour chicken which isn’t soggy or dry.


174 posted on 02/16/2010 11:30:25 PM PST by ToTheMax
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To: jpl

The original countries were relatively well off (excepting Italy perhaps) when the EEC was first formed in 1957 and included:

Belgium, France, (then-West) Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands–

Britain came in 1973 I think, and later Spain, Portugal and Greece (these 3 relatively less well off).

I remember discussions when this group of three were up for consideration, and the argument against was that the richer existing members would wind up subsidizing the poorer countries.

Later still came East Germany (upon unification, Sweden, Finland and many others.

The trouble with Greece indicates the fears at the time of entry were fully justified. I heard recently one out of three jobs in Greece is with the government, which means most are non-productive.

Ony oil rich Norway has stayed out of the EU, wisely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union


175 posted on 02/16/2010 11:51:45 PM PST by truth_seeker
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To: ToTheMax

Britain had four major stages of intervention in Greece -

- The initial deployment of supporting ground forces, including an Australian division and the New Zealand division, a British tank brigade, and supporting logistics units, RAF, etc., 60,000 men, pretty much the limit of what the British could support given the shaky and interdicted supply lines. These were hit by an overwhelming German offensive and had to evacuate mainland Greece, with heavy loss. There were also heavy losses of shipping to the Luftwaffe.

- The defense of Crete, mostly by the same units earlier evacuated from Greece. These were also evacuated, also with heavy loss, and even greater Naval losses.

- The attempted liberation of the Dodecanese islands upon the Italian surrender in 1943, which were attempted without adequate nearby airbases (the common theme of all the British attempts), and thus the Germans counterattacked causing further heavy loss.

- The occupation of Greece following the German withrawal in 1944, to ensure that the legitimate Greek government-in-exile got in instead of the Communists. Yet more British losses, this time to Communist Greeks.

The British all in all lost about 50,000 men trying to help Greece.


176 posted on 02/17/2010 12:42:29 AM PST by buwaya
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To: Rebelbase

I thought we sold California??????


177 posted on 02/17/2010 2:42:05 AM PST by glide625 (We wouldn't find ourselves ensnared by the Evil One if we weren't nibbling at his bait!)
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To: eleni121
Totally Correct! I pray that the heroic Greek people will re-discver that it takes only 300 not the EU!!!!!

But this isn't about the "heroic Greek people", this is about a socialist state that has been bankrupt for 50 years and tricked its way into the Euro with the help of American Banks like Goldman Sachs. And now that the sh*t hit the fan, what do the Greek people do? They go on strike, while marxist / communist groups "symbolically" bomb American banks.


178 posted on 02/17/2010 3:51:25 AM PST by wolf78 (Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
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To: left that other site

“You left out the Dark Ages, The Black Death, The Inquisition, And The Hundred Years War....The “Golden Years” “

Those Were The Days
Mary Hopkin

Once upon a time there was a tavern
Where we used to raise a glass or two
Remember how we laughed away the hours
And dreamed of all the great things we would do

Those were the days my friend
We thought they’d never end
We’d sing and dance forever and a day
We’d live the life we choose
We’d fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way.
La la la la...
Those were the days, oh yes those were the days

Then the busy years went rushing by us
We lost our starry notions on the way
If by chance I’d see you in the tavern
We’d smile at one another and we’d say

Those were the days my friend
We thought they’d never end
We’d sing and dance forever and a day
We’d live the life we choose
We’d fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way.
La la la la...
Those were the days, oh yes those were the days

Just tonight I stood before the tavern
Nothing seemed the way it used to be
In the glass I saw a strange reflection
Was that lonely woman really me

Those were the days my friend
We thought they’d never end
We’d sing and dance forever and a day
We’d live the life we choose
We’d fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way.
La la la la...
Those were the days, oh yes those were the days

Through the door there came familiar laughter
I saw your face and heard you call my name
Oh my friend we’re older but no wiser
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same

Those were the days my friend
We thought they’d never end
We’d sing and dance forever and a day
We’d live the life we choose
We’d fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way.
La la la la...
Those were the days, oh yes those were the days


179 posted on 02/17/2010 5:13:11 AM PST by Red Badger (Education makes people easy to lead, difficult to drive; easy to govern, but impossible to enslave.)
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To: Red Badger

I know that song in RUSSIAN! LOL!

“Darogi Dalneyu”

Ah...Those Were The Days.....


180 posted on 02/17/2010 6:13:03 AM PST by left that other site (Your Mi'KMaq Paddy Whacky Bass Playing Biker Buddy)
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To: eleni121

“The only cheating socialist bloosuckers are the National Socialists of Germany. Pay up the reparations! You owe.” Greece was not the only country to suffer at the hands of the Nazis. Look how Poland suffered under the Nazis, and if that weren’t enough, she suffered decades longer under the fist of the Warsaw Pact communists. The transformation of Poland in recent years is stunning, and was accomplished without reparations from the Germans, so a lack of German reparations is not a valid excuse for the sorry fiscal situation in which Greece now finds itself.


181 posted on 02/17/2010 7:02:29 AM PST by Texan Tory
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To: wolf78
There are more radical left wing in the US government than on the streets of the Athens.

I think you missed the point...and that is Greeks must dissolve their chains to the the failed secular unified European concept - it deserves a quick death— and get on with taking care of their own business.

182 posted on 02/17/2010 7:53:52 AM PST by eleni121 (For Jesus did not give us a timid spirit , but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline)
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To: Texan Tory

That goes to show you that a nation under communist rule was of benefit in some says...

A lesson to all unthinking neo con capitalists: The spirit of freedom is not based solely on making money.


183 posted on 02/17/2010 8:03:55 AM PST by eleni121 (For Jesus did not give us a timid spirit , but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline)
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To: eleni121

“That goes to show you that a nation under communist rule was of benefit in some says...”

Whoa, communist rule a benefit in some ways? I’m guessing you mean that the Poles actually appreciate the freedom they now have, because it was denied to them for so long. Is that what you meant?


184 posted on 02/17/2010 8:32:41 AM PST by Texan Tory
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To: the invisib1e hand
“Hey, maybe they could call on Soros! He's Greek! “

Soros was born in Budapest. He's originally Hungarian.

185 posted on 02/17/2010 8:34:57 AM PST by monday
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To: Texan Tory

You’ve never heard of the “New Europe” have you. (It’s actually misnamed since new Europe is in may ways older than old europe)


186 posted on 02/17/2010 8:46:09 AM PST by eleni121 (For Jesus did not give us a timid spirit , but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline)
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Comment #187 Removed by Moderator

To: Red Badger
You done hit the nail right on the head ... The Holy Roman Empire Is Back
188 posted on 02/17/2010 10:07:40 AM PST by Watch Germany (Have we forgotton who started the first two world wars?)
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To: Watch Germany

Read it ALL the time..............


189 posted on 02/17/2010 10:15:03 AM PST by Red Badger (Education makes people easy to lead, difficult to drive; easy to govern, but impossible to enslave.)
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To: eleni121

“You’ve never heard of the “New Europe” have you. (It’s actually misnamed since new Europe is in may ways older than old europe)”

I have heard of the “New Europe” in the sense that Donald Rumsfeld was referring to it. He was referring to former communist nations like Poland and the Czech Republic that are much friendlier to the U.S. than “Old Europe” nations like France and Germany.


190 posted on 02/17/2010 10:16:49 AM PST by Texan Tory
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To: eleni121
I think you missed the point...and that is Greeks must dissolve their chains to the the failed secular unified European concept - it deserves a quick death— and get on with taking care of their own business.

On the contrary, you missed the point. Namely that Greece WANTED to join the Euro so it could continue to borrow money to fund their communist experiment - basically at the same interest rates as low-risk Germany instead of the high-risk premiums that the market demands of failed socialist states like Greece.

You argue that Greece should leave the Eurozone or even the European Union so it can continue its leftist ways on a national scale. Greece is free to do that. If it wants to make it on its own, it can and it should instead of expecting a bailout. But the real point is that the implosion of Greece was of its own doing and had nothing to do with the European Union and its conservative monetary policy.


191 posted on 02/17/2010 10:28:04 AM PST by wolf78 (Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
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To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe
there are probably worse things than can happen to you than being booted by the EU. it's probably a badge of honor.

it's probably God saving their souls.

192 posted on 02/17/2010 10:46:15 AM PST by the invisib1e hand (yeah, you can quote me.)
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To: Texan Tory; eleni121
The transformation of Poland in recent years is stunning, and was accomplished without reparations from the Germans, ...

The matter is a bit more complicated than that. Germany and Poland basically agreed after the fall of the iron curtain to make the status quo permanent, because if Poland demanded reparations, so would German expellees (i.e. private citizens) from Danzig and Breslau. The solution is that Poland does not officially demand reparations and in turn expellees have no legal standing to demand property "re-appropriation".

However, there are EU structural and cohesion funds, which basically means that large parts of the EU budget (paid by taxpayers in the richer EU nations like Luxemburg, the Netherlands, Sweden and Germany) go to building infrastructure in the poorer countries. So yes, Poland got / still gets some money, but more importantly it is access to the free EU single market that helped Poland's economy.

... so a lack of German reparations is not a valid excuse for the sorry fiscal situation in which Greece now finds itself.

Every Greek citizen receives approx. 750 dollars (at current exchange rates) per year in structural and cohesion funds courtesy of the taxpaying folks of Germany, France and the UK. In other words: The Germans still pay for Greek roads. And despite that additional revenue the Greek government still can't make ends meet?
193 posted on 02/17/2010 11:12:46 AM PST by wolf78 (Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
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To: buwaya

There has been a very strong communist party in Greece for many years.


194 posted on 02/17/2010 1:55:55 PM PST by Maine Mariner
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To: jpl

Lets join the EU, or start our own Amerounion. I guess for us Freepers even that last little doubt in our mind about what we might gain by handing over our sovereignty is pretty much forever gone. Can people finally be clear that we should never bow to the UN or any other loose global orbanization. HA ha, by by EU hello, next antichrist organization to take its place.


195 posted on 02/17/2010 2:11:33 PM PST by steve0 (My plan B: christianexodus.org/)
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To: Red Badger

Best post of the thread!

:-P


196 posted on 02/17/2010 5:52:28 PM PST by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: Diplomat

Which puts the Greeks somewhat below Ethiopia in the realm of good fighters during WWII.

:-P


197 posted on 02/17/2010 6:01:32 PM PST by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: annalex
Zod says that he is now your king.

KNEEL before Zod!


198 posted on 02/17/2010 6:10:31 PM PST by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: wolf78

You obviously do not know much about the origins of the credit crunch.

For that we need to chcek out our own back yard.

The US deficit — is about 10 percent of GDP and climbing — liabilities that are rarely acknowledged. Costs of Medicare and Medicaid rising, and cost of veterans’ care. Markets assume that the vast debts of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are underwritten by the government aka taxpayers - someday the government - WE - will be called upon to pay them.

The Greek govt last year tried to reform public pensions—leading to riots. If anybody tries doing that here - we will have blood in the streets - remember what happened when Bush tried to privatize a tiny percent of SS?


199 posted on 02/17/2010 6:13:18 PM PST by eleni121 (For Jesus did not give us a timid spirit , but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline)
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To: the invisib1e hand

LOL...I think he is Hungarian, but hey, if it suits him, he would probably say he is Greek.

He was a Nazi sympathizer once, so he can probably be anything.


200 posted on 02/17/2010 8:37:11 PM PST by rlmorel (We are traveling "The Road to Serfdom".)
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