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New Research Rejects 80-Year Theory of 'Primordial Soup' as the Origin of Life
Science Daily ^ | Feb. 3, 2010

Posted on 02/22/2010 8:13:17 AM PST by Sopater

For 80 years it has been accepted that early life began in a 'primordial soup' of organic molecules before evolving out of the oceans millions of years later. Today the 'soup' theory has been over turned in a pioneering paper in BioEssays which claims it was the Earth's chemical energy, from hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor, which kick-started early life.

"Textbooks have it that life arose from organic soup and that the first cells grew by fermenting these organics to generate energy in the form of ATP. We provide a new perspective on why that old and familiar view won't work at all," said team leader Dr Nick lane from University College London. "We present the alternative that life arose from gases (H2, CO2, N2, and H2S) and that the energy for first life came from harnessing geochemical gradients created by mother Earth at a special kind of deep-sea hydrothermal vent -- one that is riddled with tiny interconnected compartments or pores."

The soup theory was proposed in 1929 when J.B.S Haldane published his influential essay on the origin of life in which he argued that UV radiation provided the energy to convert methane, ammonia and water into the first organic compounds in the oceans of the early earth. However critics of the soup theory point out that there is no sustained driving force to make anything react; and without an energy source, life as we know it can't exist.

(Excerpt) Read more at sciencedaily.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: abiogenesis; creation; evolution; origins; primordialsoup; science
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To: valkyry1
The evolutionists elevate their theory’s and worship them as reality. What I say to them is just dont expect everyone else to.

And I say to you if you want a fair hearing of your side, you should bring something to the table other that a bucket of perjoroatives.

51 posted on 02/22/2010 3:30:01 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: EnderWiggins

He’s an honest Freeper scientist. See

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2457008/posts?page=33#33

That is, he’s right. My own proven theory shows he is correct.

You lose, ender-redux, scientifically speaking.


52 posted on 02/22/2010 3:32:52 PM PST by bvw
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To: tacticalogic

What is pejorative there to you, did you take it personal? Do you deny that evolutionists elevate their theory’s and worship them as reality?


53 posted on 02/22/2010 3:47:31 PM PST by valkyry1
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To: valkyry1
What is pejorative there to you, did you take it personal? Do you deny that evolutionists elevate their theory’s and worship them as reality?

Are you wanting an emotional resonse so you can start a flame war? You can't have it.

54 posted on 02/22/2010 3:50:27 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic; metmom

No I was just trying to get you to back up your claim, obviously you are not going to do that.

In any event, the evolutionists 80-Year old theory of ‘Primordial Soup’ as the Origin of Life was as much junk then as it is now.


55 posted on 02/22/2010 3:56:27 PM PST by valkyry1
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To: valkyry1
No I was just trying to get you to back up your claim, obviously you are not going to do that.

I challenge you to show me the claim that I have made that I cannot back up. If you cannot do that, then you've made unfounded accusations.

56 posted on 02/22/2010 3:59:43 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic

Next is that the whole origins consideration isn’t science to begin with.

It’s philosophy.

Nobody was there to observe it. It can’t be tested on. It hasn’t been repeatable.

Assembling molecules in the lab qualifies as science, but is not terribly relevant to the origins debate.

Nobody knows for sure what conditions were like. They’re presumed based on what scientists think they needed to be in order for x,y,z to happen.

That’s not science, that’s guessing.


57 posted on 02/22/2010 4:08:26 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: tacticalogic; valkyry1

It looks like he has it already.

You are way overreacting.


58 posted on 02/22/2010 4:11:17 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
Next is that the whole origins consideration isn’t science to begin with.

There has been no explanation as to how "First" constituted a disproof, or established any "holes" in the theory, truck-sized or otherwise. So far "Next" promises to be no more substantial.

59 posted on 02/22/2010 4:11:34 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic; valkyry1
I challenge you to show me the claim that I have made that I cannot back up.

Anyone can see that. The claim that he brought to the table "a bucket of perjoratives."

What were they all?

60 posted on 02/22/2010 4:13:54 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
You are way overreacting.

So far, I'm just evalutating the evidence.

61 posted on 02/22/2010 4:14:06 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic

Then you need to work on the logic part, and then go back to college and learn what science is really all about.


62 posted on 02/22/2010 4:15:09 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
What were they all?

Specious, and odious. Every last one of them.

63 posted on 02/22/2010 4:15:26 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic; valkyry1

List them.....

Those terms are adjectives. They don’t tell what the offensive comments were, they just tell how you felt about them.


64 posted on 02/22/2010 4:16:39 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
Then you need to work on the logic part, and then go back to college and learn what science is really all about.

I have the logic part down well enough to know the "you need to go back to college" part is bullshit.

65 posted on 02/22/2010 4:16:49 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: metmom
Those terms are adjectives.

And adjectives can be perjorative. They were.

66 posted on 02/22/2010 4:17:41 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: valkyry1
In any event, the evolutionists 80-Year old theory of ‘Primordial Soup’ as the Origin of Life was as much junk then as it is now.

Yup, and since they can't come to grips with it, it's time to derail the thread to draw attention away from that really inconvenient little detail.

67 posted on 02/22/2010 4:18:15 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

He cant do it so now he’ll either try to change the topic, put words in my mouth, or both. Surprise surprise, where have we seen that before ;0


68 posted on 02/22/2010 4:20:57 PM PST by valkyry1
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To: bvw

The problem evos run into it trying to support non-scientific theories using science, the same thing that they tell creationists they can’t do.

Until a time machine is developed that can transport us back in time to learn exactly what happened, it’s all speculation based on forensic evidence.


69 posted on 02/22/2010 4:22:24 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: tacticalogic; valkyry1

I didn’t see them used on this thread. What other adjectives was that that he used?


70 posted on 02/22/2010 4:30:07 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Sopater
"Textbooks have it that life arose from organic soup and that the first cells grew by fermenting these organics..."

Notable that they start life from the remains of.......Life?

This is like the old desert emergency water kit: Drop this pill into a jar of water.... oops!

71 posted on 02/22/2010 4:30:08 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: editor-surveyor; Sopater

There’s not been one shred of evidence that life arose without life. Even the experiments in the lab only confirm this, as it takes human intervention to *create* the *right* conditions to cause some basic molecules to form and remain stable enough to survive.


72 posted on 02/22/2010 4:33:01 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: valkyry1
In any event, the evolutionists 80-Year old theory of ‘Primordial Soup’ as the Origin of Life was as much junk then as it is now.

What's interesting, is that creationists never believed it to begin with and were derided and mocked as being a bunch of anti-science Luddites for their lack of acknowledgment of a *theory* that is now no longer considered valid.

IOW, they were derided and mocked for being right.

Not only that, now the scientific world has come over to their position that the primordial soup concept was so much nonsense, the position that they mocked and derided.

And it only took them 80 years to decide that and that because they finally came up with something they think is better and could finally admit that the one they had was wrong, as they knew all along.

73 posted on 02/22/2010 4:39:06 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: r9etb
"More to the point, though.... this new theory may actually be testable at some level, as both the vents and the component chemicals are still in existence."

Which means that they should be pumping out new life every day.

74 posted on 02/22/2010 4:39:28 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: EnderWiggins

O look everyone, Bill Ayers is here!


75 posted on 02/22/2010 4:41:36 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: editor-surveyor

Alinski much?


76 posted on 02/22/2010 4:47:59 PM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: metmom

I read the article and the new theory looks about as an absurd of a probability as the old.

Faith in shifting sands in the name of science.


77 posted on 02/22/2010 4:53:53 PM PST by valkyry1
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To: metmom
I didn’t see them used on this thread.

I don't believe that.

78 posted on 02/22/2010 6:21:02 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: count-your-change; Sopater; earlJam; Cagey; MotleyGirl70

No soup for you!


79 posted on 02/22/2010 6:30:22 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: tacticalogic; valkyry1

Your unwillingness to provide any concrete examples but rely on innuendo and appeal to feelings, lend credence to the belief that you have nothing.

What you’re providing here in support of your comments would wouldn’t be acceptable in science. If you pride yourself in being a scientist or scientifically literate, you can do better than that.


80 posted on 02/22/2010 6:53:36 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Larry Lucido

No soup for anyone, it seems.

Soup is so yesterday....


81 posted on 02/22/2010 6:54:38 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
Needs repeated with a slight mod

The evolutionists elevate their theory’s to reality and worship them as such. What I say to them is just dont expect everyone else to do so.

82 posted on 02/22/2010 7:48:10 PM PST by valkyry1
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To: valkyry1
If someone wants to be offended, offended they will be, even when none is given.

Do you deny that evolutionists elevate their theory’s and worship them as reality?

crickets.....

83 posted on 02/22/2010 8:05:34 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
What you’re providing here in support of your comments would wouldn’t be acceptable in science.

There was no empirical evidence presented, so a scientific methodology was not possible. The only thing presented was rhetoric, and it was addressed in the same terms as it was submitted.

84 posted on 02/23/2010 4:16:56 AM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic; valkyry1; Sopater; wendy1946; editor-surveyor
This thread was doing fine until you came along.

Frevos love to come on these types of threads and whine and cry about how there's no *scientific discussion* that occurs on FR and yet they don't contribute any either.

You NEVER addressed the topic of the thread, the article from a science source. You never addressed the fact that the primordial soup theory is now defunct, as creationists have been saying for years. You didn't address the fact that we were right and that for decades evos were ridiculing creationists for not believing something that is now considered by the same scientific community which advocated it, not true. You hopped on here and made it all about you.

For that matter, I can't recall ANY thread where you contributed to actual scientific discussion by providing actual scientific evidence. All I recall seeing you do is constantly challenge to provide information for an ever increasing list of demands, which you then don't address.

Why don't you run along over to DC and commiserate with your buddies about what FR is becoming, how it's hurting the conservative movement, and how badly you were treated.

And don't forget the cheese.

85 posted on 02/23/2010 9:54:15 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom; Sopater; wendy1946; editor-surveyor

The thing is, ALL of their theorys end up proven as fraud or on the junk pile.


86 posted on 02/23/2010 10:03:25 AM PST by valkyry1
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To: metmom

Cry me a river.


87 posted on 02/23/2010 2:53:36 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: Sopater

A more important question is where did DNA come from?


88 posted on 02/23/2010 2:56:00 PM PST by rottndog (WOOF!!!)
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To: tacticalogic

I don’t need to. You already have....


89 posted on 02/23/2010 7:12:44 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: rottndog

They keep trying to tell us that it just assembled itself.

Of course, there’s still the little complication that they can hardly get the simpler molecules that comprise life to do that even under rigorously controlled conditions, but the devil is in the details.

Given enough time, ANYTHING is possible, dontcha know?


90 posted on 02/23/2010 7:15:18 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

There must be some major cognitive dissonance lying under the surface of the skins of most ‘it came from nothing’ types.

And such intellectual contortionism I have never seen...


91 posted on 02/23/2010 7:29:09 PM PST by rottndog (WOOF!!!)
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To: metmom

Sounds like the usual wailing about “projection”. You need new material.


92 posted on 02/23/2010 7:30:55 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: woollyone

“Entropy and Conservation
...it’s the Law!”

The Laws of Thermodynamics do not control the way things work.

Instead, the Laws of Thermodynamics describe how things are observed to behave.

This is more than a semantic difference. Perpetual motion isn’t prevented by the laws. Describable, physical causes and effects explain the failure of a given perpetual motion machine.

The laws as written are generalizations based on observation. If we observe that some physical phenomenon contradicts an expression of a physical law, then that law needs to be re-expressed to better reflect reality, not the other way around. We can’t say that what we are seeing isn’t happening because it’s against the law.

Spontaneous generation of life from non-life fails because of compelling probabalistic arguments and the impossibly steep chemical potentials required to jump start a living system.

Citing the laws as a creationist proof is logically flawed.


93 posted on 03/02/2010 5:21:16 PM PST by UnChained ( I am sending you out as sheep among wolves; so be as cunning as serpents and as innocent as doves)
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To: UnChained

yes, of course. Nothing created everything, out of nothing, for no purpose whatsoever and it “evolved” into higher and higher levels of order. Right then. The only area where science excuses the laws of entropy and conservation is in their evolutionary faith religion. I understand it just fine.


94 posted on 03/04/2010 7:36:48 AM PST by woollyone ("The trouble with socialism is you run out of other people's money to spend." Margaret Thatcher)
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