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Will the Right Find Libertarianism?
The Atlantic ^ | Mar 18 2010 | Wendy Kaminer

Posted on 03/19/2010 12:25:37 PM PDT by presidio9

"Freedom" has long been a right-wing rallying cry for self-identified patriots ranging from John Birchers to tea party protesters to increasingly extreme members of the Republican establishment. They're particularly passionate about the freedom to own and openly carry guns and freedom from federal taxation (but not necessarily federal benefits). Otherwise, their most consistent attachments to freedom tend to be rhetorical, unless freedom means restricting reproductive choice, same-sex relationships, medical marijuana, or sexually explicit speech and permitting discrimination against people who do not acknowledge Jesus as their savior. For some prominent conservatives -- like John McCain, Mitt Romney, Sarah Palin, and Dick Cheney -- freedom also entails the establishment of a national security state empowered to arrest and imprison summarily people suspected of terrorism and to spy on people suspected of nothing in particular, thanks to a ubiquitous but largely invisible surveillance system.

There are, of course, exceptions to this statism. The CATO Institute, generally associated with the right because of its commitment to free markets, is equally, if less notoriously, committed to civil liberty. CATO is unusual in its consistent libertarianism, which means, however, that (like Reason magazine), it is a creature of neither the right nor the left. A recent CATO report estimates that some 14 percent of Americans also qualify as libertarian, meaning that they're fiscally conservative and socially liberal (although it's unclear if fiscal conservatives who believe "the less government the better" are willing to surrender their own government benefits, from Pell grants to Medicare).

Libertarians are labile voters,

(Excerpt) Read more at theatlantic.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: liebertarians; ronpaultruthfile; youknowhesnuts
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1 posted on 03/19/2010 12:25:37 PM PDT by presidio9
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To: presidio9

The fiscal conservatism and limited government portions of libertarianism would be of great import.

The rest, not so much.


2 posted on 03/19/2010 12:28:12 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: presidio9

A typical (and deliberate) misrepresentation of conservatism by a leftist. Libertarians seek personal and social anarchy; conservatives seek moral governance. Neither is reducible to a simplistic scale of “liberty.”


3 posted on 03/19/2010 12:28:18 PM PDT by sthguard (The DNC theme song: "All You Need is Guv")
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To: Jewbacca
The fiscal conservatism and limited government portions of libertarianism would be of great import.

Yes, but we're trying to do that anyway. I'd prefer to see the libertarians aligning themselves with the left, and see if they can reign them in on spending a bit.

4 posted on 03/19/2010 12:30:56 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: sthguard

I think you’re probably correct.


5 posted on 03/19/2010 12:31:25 PM PDT by americanophile (DeMint/Ryan '10)
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To: sthguard

Correct, but you need to add “moral relativism” to your list of libertarian ideals.


6 posted on 03/19/2010 12:32:20 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9
I'm all for medical marijuana as long as it is approved and regulated by the FDA...just like any other drug.
7 posted on 03/19/2010 12:34:10 PM PDT by ari-freedom (Rush:Remember to put your faith in ideas and not people. People will always, always disappoint you!)
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To: presidio9

The usual Libertarian rant against those who realize that the advance of Islamic terrorism requires security measures that make libertarians nervous and motivate some of them to conjure up all kinds of Orwellian scenarios. Conservatives oppose the steady advance of a hedonist culture and most chose Christianity (or other religion) over secular humanism. Libertarians and conservatives may share some political DNA but we go our distinctly separate ways most of the time, and we should. This article demonstrates why.


8 posted on 03/19/2010 12:36:41 PM PDT by Jim Scott (HA)
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To: presidio9; Abathar; Abcdefg; Abram; Abundy; akatel; albertp; AlexandriaDuke; Alexander Rubin; ...
There will be NO conservative victory in November without the small 'l' vote. Period. If you think otherwise, you're kidding yourself. It's going to be mostly there in 2012 unless the GOP chooses to deliberately alienate us by backing a Romney/Huckster/McCain clone...all bets are off if that happens. Pray for America.



Libertarian ping! Click here to get added or here to be removed or post a message here!
View past Libertarian pings here
9 posted on 03/19/2010 12:39:48 PM PDT by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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To: presidio9
unless freedom means restricting reproductive choice,

The 'right' to kill a fetus? Some 'right'.

10 posted on 03/19/2010 12:41:40 PM PDT by dirtboy
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To: sthguard
A typical (and deliberate) misrepresentation of conservatism by a leftist. Libertarians seek personal and social anarchy; conservatives seek moral governance.

I'll second that. Such deception as this is all over America, and a reasonable true conservative voice is hard to find, basically repressed by the Media, and/or we have truly lost our way.

Libertarianism is NOT conservatism. Indeed libertarianism is basically shallow emotional reaction (as in 'reactionary') against the Left. Conservatism is, as you say, far deeper, and was once what America was about.

11 posted on 03/19/2010 12:43:24 PM PDT by jnsun (The Left: the need to manipulate others because of nothing productive to offer.)
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To: presidio9
I'd prefer to see the libertarians aligning themselves with the left, and see if they can reign them in on spending a bit.

You're basically asking for unending Democratic rule here. Free market libertarians will never back socialist commies.

But that doesn't mean we'll bow to the RINO infested GOP either if they nominate who I think they'll try to ram down conservative's throats.
12 posted on 03/19/2010 12:44:01 PM PDT by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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To: jnsun

What an utterly clueless post.


13 posted on 03/19/2010 12:44:29 PM PDT by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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To: presidio9

Wendy Kaminer is with the ACLU - which means she is writing this to divide the right.


14 posted on 03/19/2010 12:44:58 PM PDT by dirtboy
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To: presidio9

The greatest failing of libertarians is in selling what effectively is isolationism.


15 posted on 03/19/2010 12:46:32 PM PDT by Names Ash Housewares
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To: ari-freedom
I'm all for medical marijuana as long as it is approved and regulated by the FDA...just like any other drug.

Like it is in the places where its now legal? In SF Hippies complain about phantom headaches and get perscriptions for "medical marijuana." Seems to me that about 90% of the people being perscribed want it for one reason: Because it is a mind-altering drug. There are better pharmaceutical options for all of the syptoms pot supposedly treats. Now, there are people dying of cancer, who claim that pot helps their appetite after chemo (there are other drugs that will do this). I sympathize with them, and would not have a problem with doctors prescribing pot to them so they could get stoned and say it was for the appetite. The rest of these people are just looking to get stoned. Even that wouldn't be such a big deal, except that when you are dealing with raw plants, there's no way to regulate the dosages. All people who seek to escape reality through mind altering drugs are obviously dealing with a reality that they would be better off addressing.

16 posted on 03/19/2010 12:48:43 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9

I support the limits granted to the government spelled out by the Constitution.

There are many things that social cons want that the federal government is not listed as having any authority over.


17 posted on 03/19/2010 12:48:49 PM PDT by misterrob (Have you tea bagged a liberal today?)
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To: presidio9

“Yes, but we’re trying to do that anyway.”

Hardly. Gutting the federal government is necessary, even things that otherwise have value (e.g., drug issues).

It all just needs to be gutted and let individual states decide.


18 posted on 03/19/2010 12:49:20 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: presidio9

Yeah, how about conservative relativism as well?


19 posted on 03/19/2010 12:50:04 PM PDT by misterrob (Have you tea bagged a liberal today?)
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To: Jim Scott
The usual Libertarian rant against those who realize that the advance of Islamic terrorism requires security measures that make libertarians nervous and motivate some of them to conjure up all kinds of Orwellian scenarios. Conservatives oppose the steady advance of a hedonist culture and most chose Christianity (or other religion) over secular humanism. Libertarians and conservatives may share some political DNA but we go our distinctly separate ways most of the time, and we should. This article demonstrates why.

This is about where I like to remind all the libertarian lurkers who are about to get pinged into ths theard that President Reagan strongly opposed libertarianism.

I was glad to see the libertarian author recognize the fact that libertarian does not correctly belong on the political "right."

20 posted on 03/19/2010 12:51:02 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: dirtboy

and that is the inherent paradox of libertarianism.....

“Keep government out of my kids’ schools and my household cuz my kids are my responsibility but please keep your hands off my body in case I decide I don’t want them.”


21 posted on 03/19/2010 12:52:36 PM PDT by misterrob (Have you tea bagged a liberal today?)
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To: sthguard

Personal anarchy is self punishing.

Alleyways with drunks and derelicts are self observant eduction.

Real, religious conservatives believe in free will, for good and bad.

A lot of social conservative support big government, high taxes because they can do social engineering better. /sarc.


22 posted on 03/19/2010 12:53:12 PM PDT by Leisler
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To: Names Ash Housewares

But, look at what nation building has gotten us as well.


23 posted on 03/19/2010 12:53:49 PM PDT by misterrob (Have you tea bagged a liberal today?)
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To: bamahead
Liberals are mentally sick and Libertarians are simply nuts.(Ron Paul comes to mind). Bottom line both are crazy in their own ways. Both are bad for our country.
24 posted on 03/19/2010 12:54:13 PM PDT by fish hawk
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To: bamahead
You're basically asking for unending Democratic rule here. Free market libertarians will never back socialist commies.

You're wrong. America is still a center-right country (40% conservatives and 30% liberals) even without the 5% who call themselves libertarians. Getting the right back to its conservative roots necessarily includes dumping the libertarian dead weight. Go screw up the debate on the left for a while. We'll be just fine.

25 posted on 03/19/2010 12:55:28 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: bamahead
What an utterly clueless post.

Is that why you couldn't rebut it?

26 posted on 03/19/2010 12:56:15 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: bamahead; FBD
"Will The Right Find Libertarianism?"

After reading just a few comments, above?
I highly doubt it.

IF the "Right" finds/learns anything?
It'll be instead of eating their own raw, cook 'em first.
Makes the foul practice of cannibalism a LOT tastier and much easier to swallow. LOL

27 posted on 03/19/2010 12:57:29 PM PDT by Landru (The choice is: "Healthcare" or death.)
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To: misterrob
I support the limits granted to the government spelled out by the Constitution. There are many things that social cons want that the federal government is not listed as having any authority over.

Of course. You're a libertarian. As long as you accept that you're not a Conservative, we have no problems. Feel free to follow your irrelvant political philosophy. Just stop trying to infect mine.

28 posted on 03/19/2010 12:57:59 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: misterrob
Yeah, how about conservative relativism as well?

It's not usually a good idea to invent terms, and then assume they will make sense to everyone who reads them.

29 posted on 03/19/2010 12:59:22 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9; Jim Scott
This is about where I like to remind all the libertarian lurkers who are about to get pinged into ths theard that President Reagan strongly opposed libertarianism.

Which is an outright lie. Reagan understood the value of the libertarian movement as a compliment to the conservative movement.

"If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is."

"Now, I can’t say that I will agree with all the things that the present group who call themselves Libertarians in the sense of a party say, because I think that like in any political movement there are shades, and there are libertarians who are almost over at the point of wanting no government at all or anarchy. I believe there are legitimate government functions. There is a legitimate need in an orderly society for some government to maintain freedom or we will have tyranny by individuals. The strongest man on the block will run the neighborhood. We have government to insure that we don’t each one of us have to carry a club to defend ourselves. But again, I stand on my statement that I think that libertarianism and conservatism are travelling the same path."


-Ronald Wilson Reagan, Reason Magazine, July 1975.

So, do you enjoy lying on FR to misrepresent everything you're incapable of grasping? Or is it just this particular subject?
30 posted on 03/19/2010 1:00:38 PM PDT by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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To: Jewbacca
It all just needs to be gutted and let individual states decide.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but you're still overreaching.

31 posted on 03/19/2010 1:01:03 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9

Everything about my profile page rebuts it.


32 posted on 03/19/2010 1:01:34 PM PDT by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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To: Names Ash Housewares

How have conservatives done in the WWII abandonment of Eastern Europe, leaving the Korean War unfinished, abandoning the Mnung and South Vietnamese, the Cubans, El Salvadorians ( at the height of Reagan power ), the first Gulf War leaving Saddam telling the Kurds to rise up and leaving them to Saddam, even the post Soviet Management of Afghanistan.

Where have the Conservative prevailed in their interventions? It seems that conservatives have a pretty bad batting average. Not so bad getting to bat, just the batting.

Pre WWII conservatives were very isolationist all the way back to Washington.

So, I guess it is conservatives who have abandoned a some what non entangling heritage and since WW II have gone on a half hearted, not well executed schemes of Wilsonian wars. You know, for democracy, and like Wilson, left most of those wars un won and messy.

I’ll give President Bush so far credit in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we may well see them devolve.


33 posted on 03/19/2010 1:03:31 PM PDT by Leisler
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To: bamahead
Everything about my profile page rebuts it.

Seems like I've run into you here before. If you have a point to make, make it. Otherwise you just sounds desperate: "You're wrong because... my homepage says so!!!"

34 posted on 03/19/2010 1:03:40 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: misterrob

The US falls back from the global stage, that vacuum I can assure you, will be filled by tyranny.


35 posted on 03/19/2010 1:05:00 PM PDT by Names Ash Housewares
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To: presidio9

My point is that you are ignorant, repeatedly misrepresent things you don’t understand or are simply incapable of grasping, and also a flat out liar.

And I’ve proven that pretty concisely in post 30. Care to rebut?


36 posted on 03/19/2010 1:06:27 PM PDT by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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To: presidio9

“The rest of these people are just looking to get stoned. Even that wouldn’t be such a big deal, except that when you are dealing with raw plants, there’s no way to regulate the dosages. All people who seek to escape reality through mind altering drugs are obviously dealing with a reality that they would be better off addressing.”

Yes, who cares?

They are losers and always will be, whatever laws we pass.

Just tax the hell out of them and treat it like booze.

(And no, I don’t smoke anything. And I think pot smokers are shmucks. I am tired of wasting my money to make drug smugglers in Mexico rich.)


37 posted on 03/19/2010 1:08:05 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: jnsun

The stalwart value of conservatism is leaving idiots alone to make their own mistakes.

Government is not a nanny, left or right.


38 posted on 03/19/2010 1:10:14 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: bamahead

What you said. Once Republicans realize they need people like me ... well, they probably won’t admit it, but a girl can dream.


39 posted on 03/19/2010 1:10:38 PM PDT by Xenalyte (Yes, Chef!)
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To: presidio9
It seems that a lot of conservatives here agree with Rudy Giuliani's idea of "freedom":

"Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do."

Conservatives want everybody to be free to think, say, and do what conservatives want them to think, say, and do. Liberals agree with that sentiment, they just want people to think, say, and do something different.

Libertarians think people should be free to think, say, and do whatever they want -- as long as it does not involve the initiation of violence, coercion, or fraud -- and to bear the consequences of their actions.

40 posted on 03/19/2010 1:10:49 PM PDT by Skepolitic
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To: presidio9

“Acid, amnesty and abortion”—the battle cry of the McGovernites—would make for an appropriate Libertarian slogan.


41 posted on 03/19/2010 1:11:24 PM PDT by Fiji Hill
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To: Leisler

I don’t wish to debate the merits of an isolationist mentality or what fruits or lack thereof were born of past policys. Personally I strongly reject isolationism. I’m convinced to enough degree standing in the way of baddies even if half successful has strong merits.

What I point out is that libertarians are going up hill and up stream on that matter with the electorate. That isn’t going to change. Just political reality. I don’t see anywhere for them to gain traction frankly.


42 posted on 03/19/2010 1:11:32 PM PDT by Names Ash Housewares
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To: Names Ash Housewares

“The greatest failing of libertarians is in selling what effectively is isolationism.”

BINGO. And too many are simply hedonists or libertines.

I just don’t want to spend my money trying to control morons.


43 posted on 03/19/2010 1:11:40 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: bamahead

Looks like I picked the wrong decade to innocently sign up on a Conservative website 4 years ago as (small ‘L’) libertarian27.

Note to anyone signing up for a new site - think long and hard what your nickname will be because years later it may come back and bite you.

And people will yell at you thinking you are a dope smoking baby killer anarchist...Aargh

‘C’onservative - ‘l’ibertarian - ‘r’epublican

Maybe I’ll re-sign CLR: (calcium,lime,rust)lol


44 posted on 03/19/2010 1:12:25 PM PDT by libertarian27 (Land of the FEE, home of the SHAMED)
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To: Xenalyte

They only admit it and react to it when their negligence costs them elections. Precisely what many are doing now.


45 posted on 03/19/2010 1:12:29 PM PDT by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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To: libertarian27

Only by the demagougues and flat out liars here, buddy.

Wear that tag proudly, because you know what it really means!


46 posted on 03/19/2010 1:13:33 PM PDT by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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To: presidio9
Everyone: PLEASE DISTINGUISH YOUR SMALL (l)ibertarians from your BIG (L)ibertarians.

Small (l)ibertarians are a substantial percentage of the GOP base.

Without them, the GOP: cannot win.

47 posted on 03/19/2010 1:13:33 PM PDT by Mariner
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To: presidio9
First thing I and most Conservative Christians vote is pro-life....so no...no libertarianism for this Christian.
48 posted on 03/19/2010 1:14:13 PM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: presidio9

“Will the Right Find Libertarianism?”

Good grief. Let’s hope not. You think the liberal Democrats and socialists are oppressive and antagonistic toward Christians, Jews and others of western faiths. I’ve seen the Liberterian bigotry and antagonism against them—us—right here on Free Republic. Christian and Jewish faith compassion completely contradicts the selfish, self-centered ideology of many or most Libertarians. If forced to choose between the Throw-’em-out-if-they-can’t-pay-their-own-way mentality or the mentality of the Good Samaritan, I choose the Good Samaritan.


49 posted on 03/19/2010 1:17:48 PM PDT by righttackle44 (Is Obama an Irish, Italian or Japanese name?)
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To: Lady Heron

“First thing I and most Conservative Christians vote is pro-life....so no...no libertarianism for this Christian.”

I am unaware of a conflict.

The small l libertarian position is generally to revoke Roe v. Wade and return the issue to the states.

Big L libertarians are pro-abortion.


50 posted on 03/19/2010 1:20:32 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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