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Jesus Christ To Call His Beloved Ones To Meet Him in the Clouds Very Soon - Perhaps This Year - 2010
God's Word ^ | 3 29 2010 | The Holy Spirit

Posted on 03/29/2010 4:05:06 AM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt

(This is NEWS - Please Keep This in Breaking News, Admin Moderators. It is not about "religion". It is about Current Events!)

1 Thessalonians 4: 13 - 18:

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Therefore comfort one another with these words.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: centerbehind; church; eotw; jesus; leftbehind; madeupbaloney; rapture; realsoonnow; rightebehind; snakessnaaaakes; soon; thistimeforsure; wildspeculation; wingnuts
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To: Past Your Eyes
You were saying ...

If I have somehow been put onto a ping list regarding these matters, kindly remove me from it as soon as possible. I will let you know if I want to be on any ping list.

As you'll note on that post, I said that you were pinged to this thread, in regards to you being a poster on this thread and about this subject, the Rapture.

That's what the ping was for... "you commented here..." :-)

201 posted on 03/31/2010 8:25:10 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt; All
This is my post from almost ten years ago, here on Free Republic, about "The Seven Festivals of the Messiah"

The link works sometimes for me, but most of the time, it won't work on Free Republic (something about this post being too far back and before Free Republic changed the way posts were made). So, you may get it if you repeatedly hit refresh (as I have done before) and maybe not. But, the following is that post from about ten years ago...

This is a "chart overview" of The Seven Festivals of the Messiah ... and below that is the one about The Feast of Trumpets ...

HISTORICAL APPLICATION OF THE FEASTS

FEAST                   HISTORICAL APSECT

1. Passover             Israel's deliverance out of Egyptian bondage

2. Unleavened Bread     The going out of Egypt

3. First Fruits         Crossing the Red Sea

4. Pentecost            Giving the Commandments at Mount Sinai

5. Rosh HaShanah        Blowing the 'Shofar' (trumpet)
  (Feast of Trumpets)   Jewish New Year

6. Day of Atonement     Priest entered the Holy of Holies
                        Cleansing of the people's sins

7. Tabernacles          Entering the Promised Land/Great Rejoicing


MESSIANIC APPLICATION OF THE FEASTS

FEAST                   MESSIANIC FULFILLMENT

1. Passover             Death of Christ on the Cross (tree)

2. Unleavened Bread     The burial of Jesus

3. First Fruits         The resurrection of Jesus

4. Pentecost            Pouring out of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2)

5. Rosh HaShanah        The resurrection of the dead/
  (Feast of Trumpets)   Rapture of the believers

6. Day of Atonement     The day of Christ's Second Coming

7. Tabernacles          The Messianic Era/Millennium


SPIRITUAL APPLICATION OF THE FEASTS

FEAST                   SPIRITUAL APPLICATION

1. Passover             Repent and trust by faith in
                        the shed blood of Jesus

2. Unleavened Bread     Sanctification and separation from evil
                        represented by water immersion (baptism)

3. First Fruits         Walking in newness of life

4. Pentecost            Immersion (baptism) in the Holy Spirit
                        and faith in God

5. Rosh HaShanah        Hear the calling (shofar (trumet)) of
  (Feast of Trumpets)   God for our lives

6. Day of Atonement     Yielding ourselves to God so that we may
                        live (face to face) in His Presence

7. Tabernacles          A daily rest in the Messiah and having the
                        rest of His Kingdom in our hearts


SIGNIFICANCE IN BRIEF

1. Passover             Reminds us that God is the forgiver of sin who
                        grants us eternal life in His Kingdom through
                        the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, our Passover

2. Unleavened Bread     Depicts putting sin out of our lives

3. First Fruits         Christ, the firstfruits risen from the dead,
                        afterward, those who are Christ's at His Coming

4. Pentecost            Serves to remind us that our Creator still works
                        miracles, empowering us to carry out His work
                        in this world

5. Rosh HaShanah        Looks forward to the return of Jesus Christ
  (Feast of Trumpets)   (rapture of the Church), and to the resurrection
                        of the "dead in Christ" -the hope of Christians

6. Day of Atonement     Pictures the loving reconciliation we have with
                        God, made possible through Christ's sacrifice
                        It also shows the remarkable truth that Satan
                        will eventually be removed so that humanity can
                        at last attain reconciliation with God on a
                        universal basis

7. Tabernacles          Represents the Millenium, the reign of Christ on
                        Earth for 1,000 years of true happiness and
                        utopia


AND, the following is my original post from ten years ago, and I've included only "Part VI" -- which is the one about the Feast of Trumpets...

I did include the whole thing, in this other post on this thread (if you want to see it).

The Pesach (Passover) Mystery [Stan Deyo's musings re possible Rapture implications]

My post listing the whole thing is Post #25

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2430989/posts?page=25#25



The Feasts of the Lord--Part VI (6)


THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS


The Feast of Trumpets introduces the autumn festivals-representing the
culmination of the present age of man and the beginning of an incredible
time during which God will play a much more direct part in world events.
The previous festivals constitute personal responses to the workings of
God in the people He calls and chooses.  The Feast of Trumpets herald
the intervention of God in the affairs of humanity on a global basis.
This Holy Day represents a dramatic turning point in world history.

This particular festival also marks the beginning of the third and final
feast season (Exodus 23:14, Deuteronomy 16:16), which includes the final
four Holy Days of the year, Rosh HaShanah.


ROSH HASHANAH

A special season known as 'Teshuvah' which in Hebrew means "to return or
repent", begins on the first day of the month of Elul and continues 40
days, ending with Yom Kippur.  Thirty days into Teshuvah, on Tishrei 1,
comes Rosh HaShanah.  This begins a final ten-day period beginning on
Rosh HaShanah and ending on Yom Kippur.  These are known as the High
Holy Days and as the Awesome Days.  The sabbath that falls within this
ten-day period is called 'Shabbat Shuvah', the Sabbath of Return.  Five
days after Yom Kippur is 'Sukkot', the Feast of Tabernacles.  Teshuvah
begins on Elul 1 and concludes on Tishrei 10, Yom Kippur.  Each morning
during the 30 days of the month of Elul, the trumpet (shofar) or ram's
horn is blown to warn the people to repent and return to God.

God has always had a heart to warn people before He proclaims judgment.
God warned the people before the flood, and He warned Nineveh before it
was ruined.  He does not want anyone to receive the wrath of His
judgment (Ezekiel 18:21-23,30-32, Zephaniah 2:1-3).

The message from Elul 1 to Rosh HaShanah is clear:  Repent before Rosh
HaShanah.  Don't wait until after Rosh HaShanah, or you will find
yourself in the Days of Awe.

Rosh HaShanah is also referred to as 'Yom Teruah', the Day of the
Sounding of the Shofar, or the Day of the Awakening Blast.  On Yom
Teruah, the Day of the Sounding of the Shofar, it is imperative for
every person to hear the shofar.

Yom Teruah is the only festival that no man knows the day or the hour in
which it begins.  This is due to the fact that it begins on the new
moon.  The new moon was sanctified when two witnesses see the new moon
and attest to it before the Sanhedrin in the Temple.  This
sanctification could happen during either of two days, depending on when
the witnesses come.  Since no one knew when the witnesses would come, no
one knew when the Feast of Trumpets would start.  On the 30th of each
month, the members of the High Court assembled in a courtyard in
Jerusalem, where they waited to receive the testimony of two reliable
witnesses. They then sanctified the new moon.  The new moon is very
difficult to see on the first day because it can be seen only about
sunset, close to the sun, when the sun is traveling north.  So, looking
for a very slim faint crescent moon, which is very close to the sun, is
a very difficult thing to do.  If the moon's crescent was not seen on
the 30th day, the new moon was automatically celebrated on the 31st day.
For this reason, Yom Teruah is always celebrated for two days.  These
two days are celebrated as though it is just one long day of forty-eight
hours.  The reason that it is celebrated for two days is because if they
waited to start the celebration until after the new moon had been
sanctified, they would have missed half the celebration because the new
moon can only be sanctified during daylight hours.  The command seems to
be that we know the season, but not the day or the hour (Matthew
24:32-36).

Yom Teruah, or the Feast of Trumpets, is the only feast that we do not
know the day or the hour in which to keep it.  Therefore, we have to be
on the alert and watch for it.

Teruah means "an awakening blast".  A theme associated with Rosh
HaShanah is the theme "to awake".  Teruah is also translated as "shout".
The book of Isaiah, chapter 12, puts the shouting in the context of the
thousand-year reign of Jesus.  The Messianic era and shout is mentioned
in Isaiah 44:23 and Zephaniah 3:14.  The first coming of Christ is
associated with a shout in Zechariah 9:9.  The ultimate shout is the
rapture in First Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Whether it is by the blast of a shofar or the force of a supernatural
shout, God's goal is to awaken us.  "...Awake thou that sleepest, and
arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light." -Ephesians 5:14.
The book of Ephesians has many references to Rosh HaShanah and the high
Holy Days.  For example, in Ephesians 4:30, being sealed unto the day of
redemption refers to Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement.  God gave this
festival to teach us that we will be judged on Rosh HaShanah and will be
sealed unto the closing of the gates on Yom Kippur.  This will be
covered in that study later.

The theme of awakening from sleep is used throughout the Bible.  It is
found in John 11:11, Romans 13:11, Daniel 12:1-2 and Psalm 78:65.

The shofar was also blown at the temple to begin the sabbath each week.
There are two types of trumpets used in the Bible:

1.  The silver trumpet
2.  The shofar or ram's horn

Each sabbath, two men with silver trumpets and a man with a shofar made
three trumpet blasts twice during the day.  On Rosh HaShanah, it is
different.  The shofar is the primary trumpet.  On Rosh HaShanah, a
shofar delivers the first blast, a silver trumpet the second, and then a
shofar the third.

According to Leviticus 23:24 and Numbers 29:1, Rosh HaShanah is the day
of the blowing of the trumpets.

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, in the seventh month, in the
first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing
of trumpets, an holy convocation." -Leviticus 23:24

"And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have
an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing
the trumpets unto you." -Numbers 29:1

The trumpet used for this purpose is the ram's horn, not trumpets made
of metal as in Numbers Chapter 10.

Another name for Rosh HaShanah is 'Yom HaDin', the Day of Judgment.  The
righteous are separated and will be with God.  This is known to Bible
believers as the rapture.  The wicked will face the wrath of God during
the tribulation period.

The shofar blown on Rosh HaShanah is known as the last trump, which the
apostle Paul mentioned in First Thessalonians 4:16-17.  At this time,
the believers in Christ will escape the tribulation on earth and will be
taken to Heaven in the rapture along with the righteous who had died
before this time.

The gates of Heaven are opened on Rosh HaShanah so the righteous nation
may enter (Isaiah 26:2, Psalm 118:19-20).  Because the gates of Heaven
are understood to be open on Rosh HaShanah, this is further evidence
that the rapture of the believers in Christ will take place on Rosh
HaShanah.

One of the reasons for blowing the shofar is to proclaim the
resurrection of the dead.  The resurrection of the dead will take place
on Rosh HaShanah.  In First Corinthians 15:52, the apostle Paul tells us
that the resurrection of the dead will be "at the last trump."  Earlier
in First Corinthians 15:14, he wrote that without the Lord Jesus rising
from the dead, our faith is in vain.

We cannot go to the Book of Revelation and say that the voice of the
seventh angel (Revelation 11:15) is the last trump.  In the first
century, the last trump (shofar) meant a specific day in the year.  In
Judaism, there are three trumpets that have a name.  They are the first
trump, the last trump, and the great trump.  Each one of these trumpets
indicates a specific day in the Jewish year.  The first trump is blown
on the Feast of Pentecost (Exodus 19:19).  It proclaimed that God had
betrothed Himself to Israel.  The last trump is synonymous with Rosh
HaShanah, according to Theodore Gaster in his book, Festivals of the
Jewish Year, in his chapter on Rosh HaShanah.  Herman Kieval also states
the same thing in his book, The High Holy Days in the chapter on the
shofar.  The great trumpet is blown on Yom Kippur, which will herald the
return of Jesus back to the earth (Matthew 24:31).

The first and last trump relate to the two horns of the ram, which
according to Jewish tradition, was caught in the thicket on Mount Moriah
when Abraham was ready to slay Isaac and offer him up as a burnt
offering.  This ram became the substitute for Isaac even as Jesus became
the substitute for us and provided life for us through His death.

Rabbi Eliezer tells us in Pirkei Avot, that the left horn (first trump)
was blown on Mount Sinai, and its right horn (the last trump) will be
blown to herald the coming of the Lord for His Church.  Isaiah 18:3 and
First Thessalonians 4:13-18 speak of the resurrection of the dead.
First Thessalonians chapter 5 continues with the day of the Lord and the
birthpangs of the Messiah.  The festivals will, beyond a shadow of a
doubt, tell you that the resurrection of the dead precedes the time of
Jacob's trouble (the tribulation).  First Thessalonians 4:16-17 says
that the dead in Christ will rise first, and that the catching away of
the believers will immediately follow.

The term 'rapture' comes from the Greek word 'harpazo', which means "to
seize, catch away, catch up, pluck, pull, take by force"
(1 Thessalonians 4;17).  Isaiah 57:1-2 speaks clearly of the
resurrection of the dead, the taking of the believers, and the hiding of
the believers from the indignation (the tribulation).  Zephaniah 1:14-18
and 2:2-3 tells about the terrible times during the day of the Lord, the
birthpangs of the Messiah, and issues a decree to repent and turn to God
before that day to be hid from that time.  Psalm 27:5 says the righteous
will be hid in the time of trouble.  Paul in Second Thessalonians 2:1
tells us, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus
Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him."  The phrase "gathering
together" comes from the Greek word 'episunagoge', which means "an
assembly".


The Feast of Trumpets, through careful study depicts nothing less than
the return of Jesus Christ for His Church at the last trump, just before
God pours His wrath and judgment on a sinful and Christ rejecting world.

202 posted on 03/31/2010 8:29:37 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: aruanan
You were saying ...

This is complete and utter crap.

Well..., we already know that you're one of the "nattering nabobs of negativity" in regards to the Bible's teaching on the Rapture... so that comment of yours is nothing new ... LOL ...

203 posted on 03/31/2010 8:31:35 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt

Nobody knows the time


204 posted on 03/31/2010 8:32:24 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt; All
Here's a good study series of sermons about Dispensations and the Rapture, from Mark Hitchcock at Edmond Faith Bible Church in Oklahoma. Pastor Hitchcock just put up his own blog, too, recently.

A little bit about Mark Hitchcock (because you should get to know this prophecy teacher as he's a prolific writer and a good prophecy teacher and a good teacher in general.


Mark Hitchcock is a leading Bible prophecy expert, prolific author who has penned over 20 books on the end times, senior pastor, and adjunct faculty member of the Dallas Theological Seminary. He has appeared on hundreds of radio programs and in print as well as The History Channel, MSNBC, Fox, The Glenn Beck Show, and CNN. A leading Christian voice on Mayan 2012 prophecy, he is scheduled to appear on an NBC sci-fi special related to 2012 airing fall, 2009.

A former attorney, Mark initially worked for the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals. Following a call to full-time ministry, today he serves as senior pastor of Faith Bible Church in Edmond, Oklahoma, just outside of Oklahoma City. He graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary in 1991, where he subsequently earned his doctorate in 2006 and more recently has served as an adjunct faculty member.

Hitchcock has been a contributing editor for the Left Behind Prophecy Club for many years. His new book 2012, the Bible, and the End of the World (Harvest House Publishers) will be released September 15, 2009. He has also recently released Cashless (July 1, 2009, also published by Harvest House), showing how today’s headlines foreshadow a new and vastly different economic future—a one-world economy that is consistent with Bible prophecy in Revelation 13. Some of his other titles include: The Late Great United States: What Bible Prophecy Reveals about America’s Last Days; Armageddon, Oil, and Terror; Iran the Coming Crisis: Radical Islam, Oil and the Nuclear Threat; The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse; What On Earth is Going On?; Is America in Bible Prophecy?; The Coming Islamic Invasion of Israel; Is the Antichrist Alive Today?; Seven Signs of the End Times; and What Jesus Says About Earth’s Final Days.

Hitchcock maintains an active speaking schedule, appearing frequently at prophecy conferences, seminaries, and churches. He and his wife, Cheryl, live in Edmond, Oklahoma with their two sons Justin and Samuel.


Faith Bible Church
600 N. Coltrane
Edmond, Oklahoma 73034
Phone: 405-340-1000
Fax: 405-340-7504

SERMONS

The teaching of Dispensationalim / Pastor Mark Hitchcock and Dr. Charles Ryrie

Wed, Nov 7 2007 -- Dispensationalism part I
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20071107_W419-1.mp3

Wed, Nov 14 2007 -- Dispensationalism Part II
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20071114_w419-2.mp3

Wed, Nov 28 2007 -- Dispensationalism Part III
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20071128_w419-3.mp3

Wed, Dec 5 2007 -- Dispensationalism Part IV
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20071205_w419-4.mp3


Left Behind - What's It All About? / Tim LaHaye and Gary Frazier

Sat, May 19 2007 -- Signs of the Coming Christ / Gary Frazier
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070519_1560-1.mp3

Sat, May 19 2007 -- God's Plan for the Ages / Tim LaHaye
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070519_1560-2.mp3

Sat, May 19 2007 -- The Role of Israel in Bible Prophecy / Gary Frazier
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070519_1560-3.mp3

Sat, May 19 2007 -- The Rapture, 2nd Coming & Glorious Appearing / Tim LaHaye
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070519_1560-4.mp3

Sat, May 19 2007 -- Deception and the Last Days / Gary Frazier
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070519_1560-5a.mp3

Sat, May 19 2007 -- The Merciful God of Prophecy / Tim LaHaye
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070519_1560-5b.mp3

Sun, May 20 2007 -- Jesus Is Coming / Dr. Tim LaHaye
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070520_1560.mp3


The Rapture

Sun, Nov 30 2008 -- The Rapture of the Church / Mark Hitchcock
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20081130_1593-9.mp3

Sun, Dec 7 2008 -- The Timing of the Rapture / Mark Hitchcock
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20081207_1593-10.mp3


The Pre-Trib Rapture

Sun, Feb 25 2007 -- The Pre-trib Rapture, Pt 2 / Mark Hitchcock
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070225_1552-2.mp3

Sun, Mar 11 2007 -- The Pre-trib Rapture, Pt. 3 / Mark Hitchcock
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20070311_1552-3.mp3

[Part 1 didn't get recorded...]


And..., here's one to educate yourself about End Times Controversies, especially when you are challenged on the Rapture. I would say this one is essential as it's jam packed full of necessary information. Mark Hitchcock did his Doctoral Paper on this subject at Dallas Theological Seminary and wrote a book about it, too.

About Errors and End Times Controversy / Pastor Mark Hitchcock

Wed, Jan 11 2006 -- An Introduction - Part 1
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060111_w3881.mp3

Wed, Jan 18 2006 -- End Times Controversey - Part 2
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060118_w3882.mp3

Wed, Jan 25 2006 -- A Critique of Matthew 24 - Part 3
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060125_w3883.mp3

Wed, Feb 1 2006 -- An Introduction to Interpretation of Revelation - Part 4
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060201_w3884.mp3

Wed, Feb 8 2006 -- Was Nero the Beast of Revelation 13 - Part 5
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060208_w3885.mp3

Wed, Feb 15 2006 -- The Date of Revelation 13 - Part 6
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060215_w3886.mp3

Wed, Feb 22 2006 -- The Date of Revelation 13 - Part 7
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060222_w3887.mp3

Wed, Mar 1 2006 -- Questions & Answers - Part 8
http://media.edmondfaithbible.com/faith/media/mp3/20060301_w3888.mp3


Faith Bible Church Teaching

Holy Scriptures
We teach that the Bible is the Word of God, supernaturally inspired so that it is inerrant in the original manuscripts and has been preserved by God, so that it is the divinely authoritative standard for every age and every life.

The Godhead
We teach that there is one God eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient manifesting Himself in three persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit; one in nature, equal in attributes, essence, power and glory.

Jesus Christ
We teach that the Lord Jesus Christ is God incarnate, very God and very man, that He was begotten by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and offered Himself on the cross as a substitutionary sacrifice, suffering the full penalty for sinners. He was raised bodily on the third day and ascended to the right hand of the Father, there to intercede for us as our advocate and High Priest.

Man
We teach that man, as a consequence of Adam's sin, is subject to the wrath of God, justly condemned in His sight, wholly unable to save himself. Although man was originally created in the image of God, apart from God's salvation through Christ man is eternally lost.

Salvation
We teach that salvation is wholly by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and entirely apart from any ordinance, ritual, human merit or works. Salvation is the free gift of God and once it is received it cannot by any means be lost. While sin may interrupt the joy of a believers fellowship with God and bring the loving discipline of the Father, the true believer is eternally secure.

Spiritual Gifts
We teach that Christ gives to each believer, at conversion, by the ministry of the Holy Spirit, some gift or gifts to equip him to serve the Lord and edify other believers.

The Church
We teach that the universal Church consists of all true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ from Pentecost to the Rapture. Each local assembly or church should be a miniature of the universal Church, expressing the great truths of the latter. The local assembly consists of believers in the Lord Jesus Christ who meet regularly for teaching, fellowship, breaking of bread, prayer and evangelism.

Ordinances
We teach that there are two Christian ordinances: water baptism and the Lord's Supper. Baptism is the testimony of a believer showing forth in solemn and beautiful emblem his faith in the crucified, buried and risen Savior, and his union and identification with Him in death to sin and resurrection to a new life. We teach that the Lord's Supper serves as a commemoration and proclamation of Jesus' death until He comes.

Last Things
We teach the following future events: the personal, imminent coming of the Lord Jesus to rapture the Church, the tribulation period, the second coming of Christ, the millennial reign of Christ, the judgment of the lost, and the eternal state.


And here is the Faith Bible Church page with all the sermons on it.

205 posted on 03/31/2010 8:37:28 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler

THANKS THANKS.


206 posted on 03/31/2010 8:40:38 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Star Traveler

Thank you, ST. May I post here, too?

I am a follower of John Hagee, Dr. Perry Stone, and Jack Van Impe. In that order.


207 posted on 03/31/2010 8:47:25 AM PDT by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah cometh. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Filio et Spirito Sancto.)
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To: combat_boots
You were saying ...

Thank you, ST. May I post here, too?

This thread, right here, is an "Open Thread" -- meaning that you're going to get all those "nattering nabobs of negativity" and all those who don't believe the teaching of the Bible on the Rapture... along with those who do believe the Bible's teaching on the Rapture.

So, "anyone" is free to post here, even those who are denying the Rapture ...

The "Caucus" is not "here" ... this thread is "open" ...

Here is the Caucus thread on the Rapture ... it's the following ...

The Rapture [RAPTURE CAUCUS]

And on "that thread" -- it is a "Caucus thread" and goes by those rules of the Religion Moderator and you only post there if you post in support of the Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath Rapture ... (not the Post-Trib Rapture, though).

So, feel free to go over there (given that proviso), catch up on some of the reading there, and post whatever you have in support of the Rapture, or give us some more information on it, or ask some questions there... :-)

208 posted on 03/31/2010 9:02:51 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
Well..., we already know that you're one of the "nattering nabobs of negativity" in regards to the Bible's teaching on the Rapture... so that comment of yours is nothing new ... LOL ...

Well..., we already know that this, a distinction between saints of God based on religion, race, and historical distribution, as well as other peculiarities of the pre-trib movement are without (or actually contrary to) scriptural foundation...so this comment of yours is nothing new.

There is nowhere you can demonstrate in any scripture that the following is not true:
Remember that according to Paul, we Gentiles are, through our faith, grafted against nature into the olive tree that is Israel and that there are Israelites who, because of lack of faith, are cut off from that root. And being part of Israel consists in becoming a son of Abraham through the same kind of faith that Abraham had who believed God and it was counted for him as righteousness.

We who are Gentiles were excluded from the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But Jesus broke down the division between Jew and Gentile in his own body and allowed us who were foreigners to become fellow citizens of God's people and members of God's household built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. This body of believers throughout time is the church, the body of Christ.

As Paul said, in Christ there is no distinction between slave or free, Jew or Greek, male or female. All are one in Christ.

209 posted on 03/31/2010 10:03:19 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: aruanan

The same Paul that gives us the example of Abraham in how he was saved and how we all are saved the same way, as Abraham (i.e., we’re all one that way)... also gives us the mystery (something not told before) of the Rapture... in that not all will die but that the dead in Christ will be raised up along with those in Christ who are living, at that time that He comes in the clouds for His own... :-)


210 posted on 03/31/2010 10:07:52 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: goodwithagun

bttt


211 posted on 03/31/2010 10:10:23 AM PDT by ConservativeMan55
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To: Star Traveler
The next time Jesus comes, He sets foot down on the earth and establishes the Kingdom here on earth.

But...

BUT!!!

What about KIRTLAND?

April 3rd, 1836?

What about visions in the grove?

212 posted on 03/31/2010 10:48:39 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: aruanan; Freedom'sWorthIt; Quix; TaraP; Jo Nuvark

Why I Believe The Bible Teaches Rapture Before Tribulation

Dr. Thomas Ice

Churches today often neglect the study and preaching of biblical prophecy because they consider it a controversial and impractical topic. At the same time, many bemoan the apathy of believers and struggle to encourage people toward holy living. Churches caught in this trap need to consider that the teaching of the Rapture, woven throughout the fabric of the New Testament, addresses these issues and can provide motivation for godliness. No single Bible verse says precisely when the Rapture will take place in relation to the Tribulation orthe Second Coming in a way that would settle the issue to everyone's satisfaction. However, this does not mean that the Scriptures do not teach a clear position on this matter, for it does. As we shall see later, the Bible does promise that the church will not enter the time of God's wrath, which is another term for the tribulation. Many biblical passages teach the pretribulational rapture of the church.

Many important biblical doctrines are not derived from a single verse, but come from a harmonization of several passages into systematic conclusions. Some truths are directly stated in the Bible, such as the deity of Christ (John 1:1; Titus 2:13). Other doctrines, like the Trinity and the incarnate nature of Christ, are the product of harmonizing the many passages that relate to these matters. Taking into account all that the Bible says on these issues, orthodox theologians, over time, concluded that God is a Trinity and that Christ is the God-Man. Similarly, a systematic, literal interpretation of all New Testament passages relating to the Rapture will lead to the pretribulational viewpoint: that, at the Rapture, all living believers will be translated into heaven at least seven years before Christ's Second Coming. This is what I believe the Bible teaches.

Foundational Issues

Four affirmations provide a biblical framework for the Pretribulational Rapture: They are (1) consistent literal interpretation, (2) Premillennialism, (3) futurism, and (4) a distinction between Israel and the church. These are not mere suppositions, but rather are important biblical doctrines upon which the doctrine of the Rapture is built.

Literal Interpretation

Consistent literal interpretation is essential to properly understanding what God is saying in the Bible. The dictionary defines literal as "belonging to letters." Further, it says literal interpretation involves an approach "based on the actual words in their ordinary meaning . . . not going beyond the facts."1 "Literal interpretation of the Bible simply means to explain the original sense of the Bible according to the normal and customary usage of its language."2 How is this done? It can only be accomplished through the grammatical (according to the rules of grammar), historical (consistent with the historical setting of the passage), contextual (in accord with its context) method of interpretation.

Literal interpretation recognizes that a word or phrase can be used either plainly (denotative) or figuratively (connotative). As in our own conversations today, the Bible may use plain speech, such as "Grandmother died yesterday" (denotative). Or the same thing may be said in a more colorful way, "Grandmother kicked the bucket yesterday" (connotative). An important point to be noted is that even though we may use a figure of speech to refer to Grandmother's death, we are using that figure to refer to an event that literally happened. Some interpreters are mistaken to think that just because a figure of speech may beused to describe an event (i.e., Jonah's experience in the belly of the great fish in Jonah 2), that the event was not literal and did not happen in history. Such is not the case. A "Golden Rule of Interpretation" has been developed to help us discern whether or not a figure of speech was intended by an author.

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.3

The principle of consistent, literal interpretation of the entire Bible logically leads one to the pre-trib position. This means that the prophetic portions of the Bible are interpreted like any other subject matter in Scripture. The prophetic sections of the Bible use the same conventions of language found throughout the Bible.

Premillennialism

The next biblical principle foundational to Pretribulationism is Premillennialism. Premillennialism teaches that the Second Advent will occur before Christ's thousand-year reign upon earth from Jerusalem (Revelation 19:11-20:6). It is contrasted with the Postmillennial teaching that Christ will return after He has reigned spiritually from His throne in heaven for a long period of time during the current age, through the Church, and the similar Amillennial view that also advocates a present, but pessimistic, spiritual reign of Christ.

Biblical Premillennialism is a necessary foundation for the PreTrib position since it is impossible for either the Postmillennial or Amillennial view of Scripture to support a PreTrib understanding of the Rapture.

Futurism

The third contributing principle is Futurism. As if understanding the different millennial positions are not complicated enough, diversification is compounded when we consider the four possible views which relate to the timing of when an interpreter sees prophecy being fulfilled in history. The four views are simple in the sense that they reflect the only four possibilities in relation to time-past, present, future, and timeless. The Preterist (past) believes that most, if not all, prophecy has already been fulfilled, usually in relation to the destruction of Jerusalemin A.D. 70. The Historicist (present) sees much of the current Church Age as equal to the Tribulation Period. Thus, prophecy has been and will be fulfilled during the current Church Age. Futurists (future) believe that virtually all prophetic events will not occur in the current Church Age, but will happen in the future Tribulation, Second Coming, or Millennium. The Idealist (timeless) does not believe either that the Bible indicates the timing of events or that we can know before they happen. Therefore, idealists think that prophetic passages mainly teach great ideas or truths about God to be applied regardless of timing.

Pretribulationism can only be built upon the futurist understanding of prophetic events. Such a conclusion is the result of the application of a consistent literal interpretation of prophecy as future historical events that are yet to occur.

Distinction between Israel and the Church

The final principle related to the pre-trib position is the biblical truth that God's single program for history includes two peoples, Israel and the Church. This view has been systematized into what is known as dispensationalism. While the basis of salvation (God's grace) is always the same for Jew and Gentile, God's prophetic program has two distinct aspects. Presently, God's plan for Israel is on hold until He completes His current purpose with the Church and Raptures His Bride to heaven. Only pretribulationism provides a purpose for the rapture. That purpose is to remove the Church via the Rapture so God can complete His unfinished business with Israel during the seven-year Tribulation period. Therefore, if one does not distinguish between passages which God intends for Israel from those intended for the church, then there results an improper confusion of the two programs.

It should not be surprising that God's single plan for history has a multi-dimensional aspect (Ephesians 3:10) that we know as Israel and the Church. If human novelists can weave multiple plots throughout their stories, then how much more can the Great Planner of the universe and history not do the same kind of thing?

Those commingling God's plan for Israel and the church destroy an important basis for the pre-trib rapture. The Bible clearly teaches that the church and Israel have in many ways different programs within the single plan of God even though both are saved on the same basis.

SPECIFIC PRETRIBULATIONAL ARGUMENTS

The fact of the Rapture was first revealed by Christ to His disciples in John 14:1-3. It is most clearly presented in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 which encourages living Christians that, at the Rapture, they will be reunited with those who have died in Christ before them. In verse 17 the English phrase "caught up" (NASB) translates the Greek word harpaz, which means "to seize upon with force" or "to snatch up." This is the Greek word from which the English word "harpoon" is derived. The Latin translators of the Bible used the word rapere, the root of the English term rapture. A debate swirls around when this takes place relative to the Tribulation. At the Rapture living believers will be "caught up" in the air, translated into the clouds, in a moment of time.

An interesting tie between the revelation of the rapture by our Lord in John 14:1-3 and Paul's expansion in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 has been observed by commentator J. B. Smith. Smith has observed a "thought for thought" parallel between the two passages:

Let us now compare two passages of Scripture which, by the words employed, clearly show that they refer to the same event. . . .

John 14:1-3                    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

trouble - verse 1                 sorrow - verse 13

believe - verse 1                 believe - verse 14

God, me - verse 1                 Jesus, God - verse 14

told you - verse 2                say to you - verse 15

come again - verse 3              coming of the Lord - verse 15

receive you - verse 3             caught up - verse 17

to myself - verse 3               to meet the Lord - verse 17

be where I am - verse 3           ever be with the Lord - verse 17

Observe:

Such a comparison bodes well for the pretribulational rapture of the church, as we shall see below.

Operating consistently upon the foundation of these four biblical foundations, we will survey six specific biblical arguments for Pretribulationism. These are not all the reasons for a PreTrib Rapture, but are simply a summary of some of the basic arguments.

Contrasts Between Comings

The Rapture is characterized in the New Testament as a "translation or resurrection coming" (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) in which the Lord comes for His church, taking her to His Father's house (John 14:3). On the other hand, Christ's Second Advent with His saints (the Church = Rev. 19) descends from heaven and arrives on earth to stay and set up His Messianic Kingdom (Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31). The differences between these two events are harmonized naturally by the pre-trib position, while other views are not able to comfortably account for such differences.

Paul speaks of the Rapture as a "mystery" (1 Cor. 15:51-54), that is, a truth not revealed until it was disclosed by the apostles (Col. 1:26). Thus the Rapture is said to be a newly revealed mystery, making it a separate event. The Second Coming, on the other hand, was predicted in the Old Testament (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4).

The New Testament teaches about the Rapture of the church and yet also speaks of the Second Coming of Christ. These two events are different in a number of ways. Note the following contrasts between the translation at the Rapture and Christ's Second Coming to establish the kingdom.

    Rapture/Translation                   2nd Coming/Estabish Kingdom

 1. Translation of all believers             1. No translation at all

 2. Translated saints go to heaven           2. Translated saints return to earth

 3. Earth not judged                         3. Earth judged & righteousness established

 4. Imminent, any-moment, signless           4. Follows definite predicted signs including tribulation

 5. Not in the Old Testament                 5. Predicted often in Old Testament

 6. Believers only                           6. Affects all men

 7. Before the day of wrath                  7. Concluding the day of wrath

 8. No reference to Satan                    8. Satan bound

 9. Christ comes for His own                 9. Christ comes with His own

10. He comes in the air                     10. He comes to the earth

11. He claims His bride                     11. He comes with His bride

12. Only His own see Him                    12. Every eye shall see Him

13. Tribulation begins                      13. Millennial Kingdom begins

Dr. John Walvoord concludes that these "contrasts should make it evident that the translation of the church is an event quite different in character and time from the return of the Lord to establish His kingdom, and confirms the conclusion that the translation takes place before the tribulation."5

Both events mention clouds symbolizing a heavenly role in both, but other differences demonstrate that these are two distinct events. At the Rapture, the Lord comes for His saints (1 Thes. 4:16); at the Second Coming the Lord comes with His saints (1 Thes. 3:13). At the Rapture, the Lord comes only for believers, but His return to the earth will impact all people. The Rapture is a translation/resurrection event; the Second Coming is not. At the Rapture, the Lord takes believers from earth to heaven "to the Father's house" (John 14:3); at the Second Coming believers return from heaven to the earth (Matt. 24:30).

The best harmonization of these two different events supports a pretribulational Rapture (which is signless and could happen at any moment), while the many events taking place during the Tribulation are best understood as signs leading up to the Second Coming.

A Time Interval Needed Between Comings

An interval or gap of time is needed between the rapture and the second coming in order to facilitate many events predicted in the Bible in a timely manner. Numerous items in the New Testament can be harmonized by a pre-trib time gap of at least seven years, while other views, especially postribulationists, are forced to postulate scenarios that would not realistically allow for a normal passage of time. The following events are best temporally harmonized with an interval of time as put forth by pretribulationism.6

2 Corinthians 5:10 teaches that all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven. This event, often known as the "Bema Judgment" from the Greek word bema, is an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth. Since such an evaluation would require some passage of time, the pre-trib gap of seven years nicely accounts for such a requirement.

Since Revelation 19:7-10 pictures the church as a bride who has been made ready for marriage (illustrated as "fine linen," which represents "the righteous acts of the saints") to her groom (Christ); and the bride has already been clothed in preparation for her return at the second coming accompanying Christ to the earth (Rev. 19:11-18), it follows that the church would already have to be complete and in heaven (because of the pre-trib rapture) in order to have been prepared in the way that Revelation 19 describes. This requires an interval of time which pretribulationism handles well.

The 24 elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are best understood as representatives of the church. Dr. Charles Ryrie explains:

In the New Testament, elders as the highest officials in the church do represent the whole church (cf. Acts 15:6; 20:28), and in the Old Testament, twenty-four elders were appointed by King David to represent the entire Levitical priesthood (I Chron. 24). When those twenty-four elders met together in the temple precincts in Jerusalem, the entire priestly house was represented. Thus it seems more likely that the elders represent redeemed human beings, . . . the church is included and is thus in heaven before the tribulation begins.7

If they refer to the church, then this would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the tribulation and would require a chronological gap for them to perform their heavenly duties during the seven-year tribulation.

Believers who come to faith in Christ during the tribulation are not translated at Christ's second advent but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if all saints were translated at the second coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach. Because pretribulationists have at least a seven-year interval between the removal of the church at the rapture and the return of Christ to the earth, this is not a problem because millions of people will be saved during the interval and thus be available to populate the millennium in their natural bodies in order to fulfill Scripture.

It would be impossible for the judgment of the Gentiles to take place after the second coming if the rapture and second coming are not separated by a gap of time. How would both saved and unsaved, still in their natural bodies, be separated in judgment, if all living believers are translated at the second coming. This would be impossible if the translation takes place at the second coming, but it is solved through a pretribulational gap.

Dr. John F. Walvoord points out that if "the translation took place in connection with the second coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31)."8 Once again, such a "problem" is solved by taking a pre-trib position with it's gap of at least seven years.

A time interval is needed so that God's program for the church, a time when Jew and Gentile are united in one body (cf. Eph. 2-3), will not become commingled in any way with His unfinished and future plan for Israel during the tribulation. Dr. Renald Showers notes that "[A]ll other views of the Rapture have the church going through at least part of the 70th week, meaning that all other views mix God's 70-weeks program for Israel and Jerusalem together with His program for the church. A gap is needed in order for these two aspects of God's program to be harmonized in a non-conflicting manner."9

The pretribulational rapture of the church fulfills a biblical need to not only see a distinction between the translation of Church Age saints at the rapture, before the second coming, but it also handles without difficulty the necessity of a time-gap which harmonizes a number of future biblical events. This requirement of a seven-year gap of time adds another plank to the likelihood that pretribulationism best reflects the biblical viewpoint.

The Imminent Coming of Christ

The New Testament speaks of our Lord's return as imminent, meaning that it could happen at any moment. Other events may occur before an imminent event, but nothing else must take place before it happens. Imminency passages instruct believer to look, watch, and wait for His coming (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thes. 1:10; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; 1 Peter 1:13; Jude 21). If either the appearance of the Antichrist, the Abomination of Desolation, or the unfolding of the Tribulation must occur before the Rapture,then a command to watch for Christ's coming would not be relevant. Only pretribulationism teaches a truly imminent Rapture since it is the only view not requiring anything to happen before the Rapture. As required by the above mentioned passages, the New Testament indicates that the believer's hope is to look, watch, and wait for a person and that is Jesus. Only pretribulationism enables a believer to look for Christ and yet at the same time give full meaning to Second Coming passages and the signs that lead up to our Lord's return to the earth. Imminency is a strong argument for the pre-trib Rapture and provides the believer with a true "blessed hope."

The Nature of the Tribulation

The Bible teaches that the Tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and regeneration (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Ezek. 20:22-44; 22:13-22). Revelation 3:10 notes that the Tribulation will not be for the church but for "those who dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10 [twice]; 13:8, 12, 14 [twice]; 17:2, 8), as a time upon them for their rejection of Christ is His salvation. While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age (John 16:33), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God. Pretribulationalism gives the best answer to the biblical explanation of the fact that the church is never mentioned in passages that speak about tribulational events, while Israel is mentioned consistently throughout these passages.

The Nature of the Church

Only pretribulationalism is able to give full biblical import to the New Testament teaching that the church differs significantly from Israel. The church is said to be a mystery (Eph. 3:1-13) by which Jews and Gentiles are now united into one body in Christ (Eph. 2:11-22). This explains why the church's translation to heaven is never mentioned in any Old Testament passage that deals with the Second Coming after the Tribulation, and why the church is promised deliverance from the time of God's wrath during the Tribulation (1 Thes. 1:9-10; 5:9; Rev.3:10). The church alone has the promise that all believers will be taken to the Father's house in heaven John 14:1-3) at the translation, and not to the earth as other views would demand.

The Work of the Holy Spirit

Second Thessalonians 2:1-12 discusses a man of lawlessness being held back until a later time. Interpreting the restrainer of evil (2:6) as the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit at work through the body of Christ during the current age, supports the pretribulational interpretation. Since "the lawless one" (the beast or anti-Christ) cannot be revealed until the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is taken away (2:7-8), the Tribulation cannot occur until the church is removed.

PRACTICAL IMPLICATIONS

Like all aspects of biblical doctrine, teaching on the Rapture has a practical dimension. Dr. Renald Showers has summarized some of the practical implications of the pre-trib Rapture.

The fact that the glorified, holy Son of God could step through the door of heaven at any moment is intended by God to be the most pressing, incessant motivation for holy living and aggressive ministry (including missions, evangelism and Bible teaching) and the greatest cure for lethargy and apathy. It should make a major difference in every Christian's values, actions, priorities and goals.10

As John writes, "Everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure" (1 John 3:3). Our Rapture hope is said to urge a watchfulness for Christ Himself (1 Cor. 15:58); to encourage faithfulness in church leaders (2 Tim. 4:1-5); to encourage patient waiting (1 Thes. 1:10); to result in expectation and looking (Phil. 3:20; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28); to promote godly moderation (Phil. 4:5); to excite "heavenly mindedness" (Col. 3:1-4); to bring forth successful labor (1 Thes. 2:19-20); to experience comfort (1 Thes. 4:18); to urge steadfastness (2 Thes. 2:1-2; 1 Tim. 6:14; 1 Peter 5:4); to infuse diligence and activity (2 Tim. 4:1-8); to promote mortification of the flesh (Col. 3:4-5; Titus 2:12-13); to require soberness (1 Thes. 5:6; 1 Peter 1:13); to contribute to an abiding with Christ (1 John 2:28; 3:2); to support patience under trial (James 5:7-8); and to enforce obedience (2 Tim. 4:1).

The pretribulation Rapture is not just wishful "pie-in-the-sky, in the bye-and-bye" thinking. Rather, it is vitally connected to Christian living in the "nasty here-and-now." No wonder the early church coined a unique greeting of "Maranatha!" which reflected the primacy of the Blessed Hope as a very real presence in their everyday lives. Maranatha literally means "our Lord come!" (1 Cor. 16:22) The life of the church today could only be improved if "Maranatha" were to return as a sincere greeting on the lips of an expectant people.


[1] Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary, Unabridged, Second Edition, p. 1055.

[2] Paul Lee Tan, The Interpretation of Prophecy (Winona Lake, Ind.: Assurance Publishers, 1974), p. 29.

[3] David L. Cooper, The World's Greatest Library: Graphically Illustrated, (Los Angeles: Biblical Research Society, 1970), p.11.

[4] J. B. Smith, A Revelation of Jesus Christ (Scottdale, Penn.: Herald Press, 1961), pp. 312-13.

[5] John F. Walvoord, The Return of the Lord (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1955), p. 88. The quotation and the first six contrasts in the comparison above are taken from pp. 87-88 of Walvoord's The Return.

[6] John F.Walvoord, The Return of the Lord (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1955), p. 88. The quotation and the first six contrasts in the comparison above are taken from pp. 87-88 of Walvoord's The Return.

[6] Many of the points in this section aretaken from John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question: Revised and Enlarged Edition (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1979), pp. 274-75.

[7] Charles C. Ryrie, Revelation (Chicago: Moody Press, 1968), pp. 35-36.

[8] Walvoord, The Rapture Question, p. 274.

[9] Renald Showers, Maranatha Our Lord, Come! A Definitive Study of the Rapture of the Church (Bellmawr, N. J.: The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc., 1995), p. 243.

[10] Showers, Maranatha, pp. 255-56.

213 posted on 03/31/2010 11:23:35 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Elsie
You were saying ...

What about KIRTLAND?

April 3rd, 1836?

Yes..., we do know about "cult groups" -- those who pretend to teach Christian doctrine and the teachings of the Bible -- but are actually like ravening wolves to devour the flock...

Their false prophets spout off the lies of Satan and seek to deceive, like their father, who is the father of lies and deception and death and destruction.

They are one of two large non-Christian cult groups in the United States, actually "home-grown" having started here in this country. So, right where the Gospel of Jesus, the Messiah of Israel is dear to millions, Satan sets up his deception right in their midst, with their false prophet, false books, false teaching and false doctrines.

214 posted on 03/31/2010 11:28:42 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler

THANKS THANKS.


215 posted on 03/31/2010 11:34:24 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: mlizzy

I do not believe in the rapture as there were only two people who were ever born to this earth that did not sin (Mary and Jesus), so they were allowed to be “beamed up.
______________________________________________

Couple of things...

1. Remember Enoch ???

2. Jesus is God...He came from Heaven...He returned...He didnt get “beamed up”...

3. Mary was a sinful human...she lived out her natural life and died...she will be in Heaven as one of us...

4. Yes the rapture...the catching away of the Bride of Christ (those who are still living) will happen...

5. That twinkling of an eye is coming up soon...you better get ready...


216 posted on 03/31/2010 12:27:17 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: mlizzy

Where does it say in Scriptures that people are allowed into Heaven with sin?


217 posted on 03/31/2010 12:28:54 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: Tennessee Nana
Angel babies*whispering* "It's bad enough
our mothers aborted and
abandoned us on earth; why
would Christ keep His/our
mother from residing with us in
heaven?"

Angel babies
218 posted on 03/31/2010 12:59:08 PM PDT by mlizzy ("Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person" --Mother Teresa.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Where does it say in Scriptures that people are allowed into Heaven with sin?

You'll have to be more clear with whatever you were asking in the first place. If it has to do with purgatory, here's an explanatory link if you're interested. (Heaven is for cleaned-up souls, not sinners.)
219 posted on 03/31/2010 1:19:28 PM PDT by mlizzy ("Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person" --Mother Teresa.)
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To: mlizzy

why would Christ keep His mother from residing with us in heaven?”
________________________________________________

I didnt think He was going to...

Do you know different ???


220 posted on 03/31/2010 1:46:47 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

He wouldn’t, of course. She already resides there.


221 posted on 03/31/2010 1:49:45 PM PDT by mlizzy ("Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person" --Mother Teresa.)
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To: mlizzy

(Heaven is for cleaned-up souls, not sinners.)
____________________________________________________

Actually Heaven is for redeemed souls...

Washed clean through the Blood that jesus shed on the Cross...

Those who have asked forgiveness of their sins and have confessed the LORD Jesus Christ as their Savior..


222 posted on 03/31/2010 1:50:17 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: mlizzy

When she died she went whereever the rest of the Church is right now..


223 posted on 03/31/2010 1:51:36 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: mlizzy
Jesus cleans up a person's soul when they accept Him as Savior.

There is nothing anyone can do to make himself clean in the eyes of God apart from salvation in Christ. The acceptance of Christ as Savior and the surrender of a person's life to Christs' lordship over that life is what gets a person into heaven. There is no work a person can perform that God will accept as salvation and which will make a person be seen as sinless by God.

There is no Scripture that even hints that the return of Jesus Christ gets put on hold while human beings attempt to work their way into acceptance by God.

Christ's return for those who know Him as Savior will happen, it will happen soon, and there is no part of that return that is contingent on the actions or behaviors of men.

224 posted on 03/31/2010 2:08:00 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: Star Traveler
also gives us the mystery (something not told before) of the Rapture... in that not all will die but that the dead in Christ will be raised up along with [sic] those in Christ who are living, at that time that He comes in the clouds for His own... :-)

The mystery referred to here is the instantaneous change of our physical nature upon the return of the Lord whether or not we have died, not the scheduling and ETA's of various raptures and resurrections.

Note that the mystery isn't the resurrection since those Paul was writing to already knew about that.

It wasn't about the return of Jesus in the clouds because the angels told those watching him leave, "Why are you standing around gawking? He'll return in the same way you saw him leave."

It wasn't that Jesus would come back again and receive the believers to himself because he had already said that.

It wasn't about the timing of the resurrection relative to those still living because Paul had already dealt with that earlier when he was counseling these people who had been scammed by the first century's version of the Left Behind movement.

It wasn't about the unambiguous appearance of the Lord himself in the sky with sights and sounds, which the 1st century Left Behind group seemed to have forgotten about when telling others that the resurrection had already happened, since Jesus had already talked about the angels being sent out upon his return at the sound of the trumpet to pick up his own around the world.

The mystery was not even that those living would be taken together with the risen dead to meet the Lord in the air since it was a given, through Jesus's parable of the harvest, that the elect would not be dead when he returned but left behind after the evil were taken away by the angels and then subsequently gathered to Jesus.

The mystery was that all believers who had not died by the time of the Lord's return would be changed instantaneously into imperishable and immortal bodies along with all those who have "slept in Christ."

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

This is how he reassured the scammed ones: When Jesus comes and resurrects the dead in Christ, you're going to know it because you'll be instantly changed from mortal to immortal bodies. There won't be any mistake about it. Are you changed now? Okay, then, the resurrection has not occurred, but it will and you'll be a part of it whether you are dead or alive. "Therefore, my dear brothers. Stand firm. Let nothing move you."
225 posted on 03/31/2010 2:27:44 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: Quix; left that other site

Very interesting message from today’s report:

http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/

God will not be mocked.


226 posted on 03/31/2010 3:00:22 PM PDT by jackv (The darkness hates the light!)
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To: jackv

That was an interesting report to say the least!

The “symmetry” of God’s Word is amazing!


227 posted on 03/31/2010 3:09:27 PM PDT by left that other site (Your Mi'KMaq Paddy Whacky Bass Playing Biker Buddy)
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To: left that other site
No kidding! And the storms out east as this supposed president disses the Christian National Day of Prayer but honors muslim prayer day!!!

My oh my!!!

228 posted on 03/31/2010 3:14:31 PM PDT by jackv (The darkness hates the light!)
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To: Star Traveler

WOW I sure hope so!

Thanks ST!


229 posted on 03/31/2010 4:05:44 PM PDT by TaraP (He never offered our victories without fighting but he said help would always come in time)
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To: jackv

THANKS.

AUDIO OR TRANSCRIPT?


230 posted on 03/31/2010 4:09:10 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

Hi Quix! It’s a video that airs daily on You-Tube.


231 posted on 03/31/2010 4:12:47 PM PDT by jackv (The darkness hates the light!)
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To: jackv

THANKS.


232 posted on 03/31/2010 4:25:01 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: aruanan
As you can see from this particular passage up above ...



Contrasts Between Comings

The Rapture is characterized in the New Testament as a "translation or resurrection coming" (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) in which the Lord comes for His church, taking her to His Father's house (John 14:3). On the other hand, Christ's Second Advent with His saints (the Church = Rev. 19) descends from heaven and arrives on earth to stay and set up His Messianic Kingdom (Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31). The differences between these two events are harmonized naturally by the pre-trib position, while other views are not able to comfortably account for such differences.

Paul speaks of the Rapture as a "mystery" (1 Cor. 15:51-54), that is, a truth not revealed until it was disclosed by the apostles (Col. 1:26). Thus the Rapture is said to be a newly revealed mystery, making it a separate event. The Second Coming, on the other hand, was predicted in the Old Testament (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4).

The New Testament teaches about the Rapture of the church and yet also speaks of the Second Coming of Christ. These two events are different in a number of ways. Note the following contrasts between the translation at the Rapture and Christ's Second Coming to establish the kingdom.

    Rapture/Translation                   2nd Coming/Estabish Kingdom

 1. Translation of all believers             1. No translation at all

 2. Translated saints go to heaven           2. Translated saints return to earth

 3. Earth not judged                         3. Earth judged & righteousness established

 4. Imminent, any-moment, signless           4. Follows definite predicted signs including tribulation

 5. Not in the Old Testament                 5. Predicted often in Old Testament

 6. Believers only                           6. Affects all men

 7. Before the day of wrath                  7. Concluding the day of wrath

 8. No reference to Satan                    8. Satan bound

 9. Christ comes for His own                 9. Christ comes with His own

10. He comes in the air                     10. He comes to the earth

11. He claims His bride                     11. He comes with His bride

12. Only His own see Him                    12. Every eye shall see Him

13. Tribulation begins                      13. Millennial Kingdom begins

Dr. John Walvoord concludes that these "contrasts should make it evident that the translation of the church is an event quite different in character and time from the return of the Lord to establish His kingdom, and confirms the conclusion that the translation takes place before the tribulation."5

Both events mention clouds symbolizing a heavenly role in both, but other differences demonstrate that these are two distinct events. At the Rapture, the Lord comes for His saints (1 Thes. 4:16); at the Second Coming the Lord comes with His saints (1 Thes. 3:13). At the Rapture, the Lord comes only for believers, but His return to the earth will impact all people. The Rapture is a translation/resurrection event; the Second Coming is not. At the Rapture, the Lord takes believers from earth to heaven "to the Father's house" (John 14:3); at the Second Coming believers return from heaven to the earth (Matt. 24:30).

The best harmonization of these two different events supports a pretribulational Rapture (which is signless and could happen at any moment), while the many events taking place during the Tribulation are best understood as signs leading up to the Second Coming.

233 posted on 03/31/2010 4:26:48 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: jackv; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; annieokie; aragorn; auggy; ...

THANKS.

THAT’S A GREATLY INTERESTING REPORT ALRIGHT.

I HOPE EVERYONE WATCHES IT.

EXCELLENT POINTS, imho.

http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/


234 posted on 03/31/2010 4:32:26 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Star Traveler
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

Even more to the point, the mystery was not only that we who are living at the Lord's return will have our living bodies changed instantaneously into incorruptible bodies but that the dead would also. This is something new in the Biblical teaching of resurrection: not only will the dead be raised to new life, they won't be resurrected into bodies subject to death again. As is pointed out in The Resurrection of the Son of God by N.T. Wright, in the ancient world of the Middle East as well as Rome and Greece, there was no concept of the resurrection of an individual into a corporeal life. There were tales of some sort of shadowy afterlife, but there was nothing like the resurrection finally taught by the Jews and the Christians. And Paul expands on that here. The dead will be raised to corporeal life, but it won't simply be more time in this same old world. And we who are living will be changed into a still-living corporeal existence, but one that is no longer for this same old world. We will have bodies that will not wear out (incorruptible) and that will not die (immortal). This is considerably different from "can these bones live again?"
235 posted on 03/31/2010 4:35:16 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: Quix

Wouldn’t that be a dream come true?

I’m ready, right NOW!


236 posted on 03/31/2010 4:56:46 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Quix

Easter seems like a good day!! :o)


237 posted on 03/31/2010 5:00:47 PM PDT by jackv (The darkness hates the light!)
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To: jackv; nmh

AMEN! AMEN!


238 posted on 03/31/2010 5:04:11 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: jackv

That was good, thank you! I will be praying on May 1.


239 posted on 03/31/2010 5:16:12 PM PDT by Ditter
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To: Ditter

Me too!! :o)


240 posted on 03/31/2010 5:33:07 PM PDT by jackv (The darkness hates the light!)
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To: jackv

Yes Indeed!

Although I would NEVER presume to put a date on The LORD’S Return, I keep hoping it’s Tomorrow.

On The Other hand, I think He wants a LOT MORE People in His Kingdom...So He May yet tarry (sigh).

Everything ELSE is in place, so that is the only thing left.


241 posted on 03/31/2010 5:41:43 PM PDT by left that other site (Your Mi'KMaq Paddy Whacky Bass Playing Biker Buddy)
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To: left that other site

bttt


242 posted on 03/31/2010 5:53:15 PM PDT by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.")
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To: left that other site

I know, me too. I keep hoping and praying for the harvest to get FULL!!! :o)


243 posted on 03/31/2010 5:54:05 PM PDT by jackv (The darkness hates the light!)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Nobody knows the time

And I say unto you, there will come a time when those who are certain will proclaim a day of reckoning where their narcissism and ignorance will be exposed ... Well, I guess they can always change the date after re-reading the tea leaves.

244 posted on 03/31/2010 5:54:53 PM PDT by neocon1984
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To: jackv

Amen.


245 posted on 03/31/2010 6:06:39 PM PDT by left that other site (Your Mi'KMaq Paddy Whacky Bass Playing Biker Buddy)
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To: aruanan; All

The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Dr. Thomas Ice


Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
- 2 Thessalonians 2:3

I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.

The Meaning of Apostasia

The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, "that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses." The word is a Greek compound of apo "from" and istemi "stand." Thus, it has the core meaning of "away from" or "departure." The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as "defection, revolt;" then secondly as "departure, disappearance."1 Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:

The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men (1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2Cor. 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13).2

"It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages, "concludes Daniel Davey, "that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as departure."3 Paul Lee Tan adds the following:

What precisely does Paul mean when he says that "the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article "the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for "falling away", taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean "to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is "to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls "the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church.4

So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.

Translation History

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either "departure" or "departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).5 This supports the notion that the word truly means "departure." In fact, Jerome's Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.A. 400 renders apostasia with the "word discessio, meaning 'departure.'"6 Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"?

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as "falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as "departure." No good reason was ever given.

The Use of the Article

It is important to note that Paul uses a definite article with the noun apostasia. What does this mean? Davey notes the following:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article reference is being made to something in particular. In II Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.7

Dr. Lewis provides a likely answer when he notes that the definite article serves to make a word distinct and draw attention to it. In this instance he believes that its purpose is "to denote a previous reference." "The departure Paul previously referred to was 'our being gathered to him' (v. 1) and our being 'caught up' with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds (1 Thess. 4:17)," notes Dr. Lewis.8 The "departure" was something that Paul and his readers clearly had a mutual understanding about. Paul says in verse 5, "Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?" The use of the definite article would also support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable event. A physical departure, like the rapture would fit just such a notion. However, the New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27-32; 1 Tim. 4:1-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-9; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; Jude 3-4, 17-21) and thus, such a process would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. Understanding departure as the rapture would satisfy the nuance of this text. E. Schuyler English explains as follows:

Again, how would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize the apostasy when it should come, assuming, simply for the sake of this inquiry, that the Church might be on earth when it does come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began.9

Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to "the departure," was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy, however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9-10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:1-11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the rapture. It should not be surprising that he uses another term to reference the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Dr. House tells us:

Remember, the Thessalonians had been led astray by the false teaching (2:2-3) that the Day of the Lord had already come. This was confusing because Paul offered great hope, in the first letter, of a departure to be with Christ and a rescue from god's wrath. Now a letter purporting to be from Paul seems to say that they would first have to go through the Day of the Lord. Paul then clarified his prior teachingby emphasizing that they had no need to worry. They could again be comforted because the departure he had discussed in his first letter, and in his teaching while with them, was still the truth. The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the Day of the Lord had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the Day of the Lord. The entire second chapter (as well as 1 Thessalonians 4:18; 5:11) serves to comfort (see vv. 2, 3, 17), supplied by a reassurance of Christ's coming as taught in his first letter.10

Departure and The Restrainer

Since pretribulationists believe that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Holy Spirit and teaches a pre-trib rapture, then it should not be surprising to see that there is a similar progression of thought in the progression of verse 3. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary in a letter to Schuyler English has said the following concerning this matter:

I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses 7-8, a little further down. According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of "departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as "falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the man of sin.11

Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:

But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hookatechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.12

Conclusion

The fact that apostasia most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear support for pretribulationism. If this is true, (Dr. Tim LaHaye and I believe that it is), then it means that a clear prophetic sequence is laid out by Paul early in his Apostolic ministry. Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the rapture will occur first, before the Day of the Lord commences. It is not until after the beginning of the Day of the Lord that the Antichrist is released, resulting in the events described by him in chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians. This is the only interpretation that provides hope for a discomforted people. Maranatha!

Endnotes

[1] Henry George Liddell and Henry Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Revised with a Supplement [1968] by Sir Henry Stuart Jones and Roderick McKenzie (Oxford, Eng.: Oxford University Press, 1940), p. 218.

[2] Gordon R. Lewis, "Biblical Evidence for Pretribulationism," Bibliotheca Sacra (vol. 125, no. 499; July 1968), p. 218.

[3] Daniel K. Davey, "The 'Apostesia' of II Thessalonians 2:3," Th.M. thesis, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary, May 1982, p. 27.

[4] Paul Lee Tan, The Interpretation of Prophecy (Winona Lake, IN: Assurance Publishers, 1974), p. 341.

[5] H. Wayne House, "Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3: Apostasy or Rapture?" in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, eds., When the Trumpet Sounds: Today's Foremost Authorities Speak Out on End-Time Controversies (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1995), p. 270.

[6] House, "Apostesia", p. 270.

[7] Davey, "Apostesia", p. 47.

[8] Gordon R. Lewis & Bruce A. Demarest, Integrative Theology 3 vols in 1 (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996), vol. 3,p. 420.

[9] E. Schuyler English, Re-Thinking the Rapture (Neptune, NJ: Loizeaux Brothers, 1954), p. 70.

[10] House, "Apostesia", pp. 275-76.

[11] Allan A. MacRae, Letter to E. Schuyler English, published in "Let the Prophets Speak," Our Hope, (vol. LVI, num. 12; June 1950), p. 725.

[12] Kenneth S. Wuest, Letter to E. Schuyler English, published in "Let the Prophets Speak," Our Hope, (vol. LVI, num. 12; June 1950), p. 731.

246 posted on 03/31/2010 6:08:40 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: left that other site; jackv
You were saying ...

On The Other hand, I think He wants a LOT MORE People in His Kingdom...

I don't know if you've contemplated this, but the people that go from the Tribulation time, straight into the Kingdom, here on earth -- having survived all that (which will be at least about 25-33% of the world's population surviving) -- they will have 1,000 years of populating the earth again, at high birth rates (you gotta know there's no abortion at that time...).

And there will be significant numbers who will get saved at that time, as the new people are born on the earth during the Kingdom. So, I'm venturing an educated guess that there will be more Christians produced during the 1,000 year reign of the Messiah of Israel on this earth -- than there has during all the period of time since the beginning of mankind.

247 posted on 03/31/2010 6:15:17 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: metmom; Ezekiel
You were saying ...

I don’t know that there’s much historical precedent for signing peace treaties when things are quiet and nobody is fighting.

Actually, the indications in the Bible are that the 7-year Tribulation time begins with Antichrist enforcing a treaty (which is the thing that "kicks off" the Tribulation, technically) -- with Israel being already at peace with its neighbors.

In fact, there's some prophecy teachers that point to Psalm 83 as prophetic as something that will bring Israel to peace with its immediate (i.e., adjacent surrounding neighbor countries) and set up the conditions for Israel being at peace and rest in unwalled villages.

I'll get the information on that and post it here.

248 posted on 03/31/2010 6:20:21 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: metmom; ResistorSister; Freedom'sWorthIt
You were saying ...

While nobody knows the day or the hour, we can read the signs that Jesus Himself gave us to be aware that His coming is near. Jesus Himself told us that.

It seems that the people of that time (when Jesus was around) would understand that phrase as an idiom pointing to one of the Seven Festivals of the Messiah (as I pointed out in another post, Post #202) -- The Feast of Trumpets. It was the one in which no one knew the day or hour of its coming... you see... :-)

249 posted on 03/31/2010 6:24:25 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler

But We’ll never know! LOL


250 posted on 03/31/2010 6:27:41 PM PDT by left that other site (Your Mi'KMaq Paddy Whacky Bass Playing Biker Buddy)
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