Posted on 04/02/2010 1:16:24 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
They'll just compare it to the image on the tortilla, stupid!
We might want to watch this tomorrow night.
I, and I suspect most Christians of any denomination would love to believe that our faith is rock solid, unshakeable and we have all we need. As much as I would like to believe that, I know that's not the case, and any evidence, words of advice, turn of events, etc. that reaffirms and bolsters my faith is welcome. If the shroud were to be definitively proven to be a forgery, it would not affect my beliefs. If, on the other hand, it were proven beyond any doubt to be authentic, I would admit that would strenghthen my faith...and no doubt that of millions or even billions.
You say the shroud has never been a big thing for you. As I stated elsewhere, supposing that indeed it is the miraculously rendered image of Christ. Do you think that Christ would have left it here simply to be ignored? I know that's an academic question since it's authenticity is not established, but if it came to your knowledge that it was authentic, would you regard it differently?
I suppose in one sense I can say it's not a "big thing" for me as I would believe in the life, death, resurrection and divinity of Christ had I never heard of or seen the shroud. Yet, in my constant desire to know Christ as completely as possible, the shroud is a clue...perhaps one that may or may not pan out, but certainly one that, at this time, I can hardly ignore.
Yes, the many miracles He performed as “evidence” convinced some, and to others the miracles were from Satan. And others didn’t need to see miracles to have faith.
Same goes for the Shroud. Based on the evidence so far, I believe that it is Christ’s. As they said in the show - is that a fact? No. If it were a courtroom drama would the evidence “convict” the shroud? Probably.
It was interesting watching it with my young daughters and trying to answer their questions and bring the science and discussion down to their level.
“So this could be just some other dead guy?”
PERHAPS. But I doubt it.
Unknown source of image.
Other burial shrouds don’t leave such images.
Scourging AND crucifiction.
Crown of thorns wounds.
But yeah. My faith doesn’t depend on it. Not sure about others. It is interesting to note the folks that started off being sceptical about it having a change of heart after studying it.
Oh, I don’t disagree with you on your statements per se, Jesus was indeed a man as well as God on Earth. Yet I think the same reason we don’t have a physical image of Jesus is the same reason God hid the bones of Moses when he died...our unfortunate propensity to venerate bones and images as idols.
The disciples who were with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration had seen Jesus’ physical form in their travels with him...THEN(drum roll and trumpets please) they got a glimpse of his TRUE FORM standing with Moses and Elijah, also glorified transcendently! What he saw prompted Peter to state” we should build a temple here “ to which a voice stated “This is my beloved son...Listen to Him!”
Even should the image on the cloth be that of Jesus, the Bible says his true glorified form is something utterly fantastic. The Bible also says that Christians are “the sons of God, and it doesn’t yet appear what we shall be; for we know that when he shall appear, that we will be like him for we shall see him as he is” Thus our real “true selves” will have Christ’s same glorified incorruptible bodies!
So much for image!
At the end of the program the narrator asked him -- after all of the investigative work had been done -- what his final determination about the origin of the Shroud was. He wouldn't answer the question directly and tried to defer it by saying he was only an expert on some matters and wasn't brought on board to render a professional opinion, but the narrator didn't let up on him.
Finally, he said quietly: "I believe this is the burial shroud of Jesus Christ."
The narrator was stunned, and had to gather his thoughts for a few moments before asking him: "Do you understand the personal implications of what you've just said to me?"
The guy smiled very weakly, nodded, and said something to the effect of: "There was no other conclusion to reach about this relic; I'll be thinking long and hard about those personal implications."
That's incorrect. Thomas wasn't present with the other apostles when Jesus first appeared to them. He was doubting the story they told him about Jesus' appearance while he was absent.
So, yes -- I'd say he was doubting the Resurrection.
As did I. My heart skipped a beat when the face of my savior was revealed - and the blink was awesome.
Bingo.
True. But it matters not what that appearance was. It is not important. Those who would deny things based on an appearance or a lack of one are no more likely to understand the importance of his being a real person, in a real place, in a real time than those who deem it important.
Faith is not revealed by vision, rather vision can only confirm faith.
I entirely agree with you.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with that, either, the more I think about this. As I said in another post, He was Jewish, not Chinese; a man, not a woman. Just from those two points, both in Scripture, some "appearances" are not possible.
He was visibly changed by this and was almost moved to tears a few times during this program.
I agree. I saw the special. Beyond the Shroud itself, was the underlying sense of how it changes people. Several of the scientists were from STURP. I find it amazing that having come into contact with it once, it has become such a big part of their lives for more than 20 years now. The 3-d animator touched me deeply as he found out more and more what this broken body before him had been through. I got as much out of seeing how the Shroud changed these people as much as I did from the information presented. This is worth watching just for those reasons.
You missed my point entirely; I’m operating from the point of view that we’ll never know for sure who’s image is on that cloth until God himself says...”yeah that’s me”. Even if it was his “earthly image” the Bible records in Revelation what Christ really looked like to John when Christ revealed himself to him.
There is a reason why God commanded us to have no idols or make any graven images purported to be things of heaven or spiritual things. There is a reason why God (or by proxy via Michael the arkangel) hid the bones of Moses and why we have very few physical descriptions of persons in the Bible.The few descriptions there are, help explain the the context of the accounts of these individuals and why the stories unfolded as they did.
The Bible itself is devoid of any physical descriptions of Jesus, and I don’t think it was by accident! A Roman Historian Tacitus had recorded a physical description of Jesus in a history book describing religions of the empire as the researcher had purportedly spoken to folks yet alive who had seen him when the book was being written(65-70 AD?)
He was described as being about 69 inches tall, 175 pounds and having grey eyes, other wise looking fairly ordinary like most Jewish males at the time. In other words, nondescript, not very attractive nor ugly, a real “mook” as they might say in NYC.
Did he have a halo. He was wearing one in the paintings I have seen. ;0)
OK.
There is a reason why God commanded us to have no idols or make any graven images purported to be things of heaven or spiritual things.
Well, yes. He had not revealed any such.
Then, there was the Incarnation. St. Paul speaks of it thus:
Colossians 1:
4Hearing your faith in Christ Jesus, and the love which you have towards all the saints. 5For the hope that is laid up for you in heaven, which you have heard in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6Which is come unto you, as also it is in the whole world, and bringeth forth fruit and groweth, even as it doth in you, since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth. 7As you learned of Epaphras, our most beloved fellow servant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ Jesus; 8Who also hath manifested to us your love in the spirit. 9Therefore we also, from the day that we heard it, cease not to pray for you, and to beg that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will, in all wisdom, and spiritual understanding: 10That you may walk worthy of God, in all things pleasing; being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God: 11Strengthened with all might, according to the power of his glory, in all patience and longsuffering with joy, 12Giving thanks to God the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins; 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
And image indeed, for was not Man originally created in the "Image and likeness of God"?
Still, as I have argued above:
1) The particular appearance of Jesus is less important than the FACT that he did indeed have a particular appearance.
2) If, in fact, the shroud is Jesus' burial cloth, He may have left it as a reminder that the Incarnation was real. Maybe. IMHO.
I'm not sure I really have much more to say on this topic.
It could be interesting. With a 2-hour run time we’d have to TIVO it so we could FF through commercials.
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