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Woman's hospital memories contradict "birthers"
The Daily Republic ^ | May 15, 2010 | Ross Dolan

Posted on 05/14/2010 11:02:15 PM PDT by Smokeyblue

U.S. House candidate Chris Nelson earlier this week dismissed “birther” statements attributed to him and said he believes Barack Obama is a natural-born U.S. citizen and the legitimately elected president of the United States.

So does Eleanor Nordyke — and according to her, she should know.

Nordyke, 82, of Honolulu, Hawaii, says that on Aug. 4, 1961, she was in labor with her twin daughters Susan and Gretchen at Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital — the same place Barack Obama was being born. The hospital has since been renamed Kapi’olani Medical Center for Women and Children.

“Birthers” is the term given to those who believe Obama was not born in the United States and does not, therefore, meet a primary qualification for the presidency.

Nordyke, in a Friday telephone interview with The Daily Republic, said the birthers have consistently discounted her testimony. She is certain they are wrong.

(Excerpt) Read more at mitchellrepublic.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: article2section1; birthcertificate; certifigate; eligibility; hawaii; honolulu; ineligible; naturalborncitizen; nordyke; obama; usurper
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To: Bob
Basing the numbers on the order in which the mothers entered the hospital doesn't make any sense at all.

It could make sense. See #98 for a plausible scenario. I'm not saying it's what happened, but it could have.

101 posted on 05/15/2010 10:13:47 AM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Honesty, Character, & Loyalty still matter)
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To: Smokeyblue

Barry and Company must be getting worried.
Anderson Cooper’s hysterical “birther “ segment with Lt Col Lakin the other night was another example.
They drag out an 82 yr old who offers nothing substantive or empirical to validate that Barry was born at the same hospital where she gave birth.
Back in the day, most hospitals had labor wards , not private birthing suites like now.
When the woman was ready to gave birth, she was taken to the Delivery Room.
Odd that Mrs Nordyke doesn’t mention seeing an inky black older man and a white teen ager during her stay.
And women did not go home as soon as they do now.
Odd that she didn’t encounter the older black man and the white teen ager gazing at the babies in the nursery during visiting hours.
Visiting hours were stricter then and visitors and mothers usually gathered en masse at the nursery window at the same time.
Their maternity stay had to dovetail.
I agree with Dr Jerome Corsi who likes to say he didn’t take mind reading at Harvard, so he has no idea what’s on the sealed original birth certificate.
Only that it’s sealed from the American public.
How can anyone disagree with that fact ?
And not wonder why ?


102 posted on 05/15/2010 10:29:59 AM PDT by Wild Irish Rogue
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To: BuckeyeTexan

Good way the BC numbers could have happened, other than that, though, I have to agree with the Birfers (gag gag gag cough gag - wash mouth out and rinse with Jack Daniels) that she hasn’t really contradicted anything.

parsy, who thinks he has read this story before


103 posted on 05/15/2010 10:47:02 AM PDT by parsifal (I will be sent to an area where people are demanding free speech and I will not like it there. Orly.)
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To: BuckeyeTexan
“My daughters’ birth certificates were 10637 and 10638, and Obama’s was 10641, so his mother must have come in after I did,” Nordyke said, though she never met Obama’s mother. That makes a lot sense if the charge nurse provided a blank birth certificate to the birthing staff in each delivery room.

That way the delivery staff can record the time of birth, etc. on the certificate and the physician can sign it after delivery. It would prevent fraud AND would save the physician from having to come back later to sign several certificates in one batch while comparing delivery notes to information on the birth certificate.

******

I'm sorry, but I can't seem to follow your reasoning.

For instance, when and where do you say the numbers were put on the birth certificate: At the hospital or at the Hawaii Dept. of Vital Statistics?

So, could you please explain in more detail how Obama, who was born BEFORE the Nordyke twins, received a HIGHER number than the twins? Thanks.

104 posted on 05/15/2010 10:53:01 AM PDT by john mirse
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To: Uncle Chip

When did she find out that Obama’s cert number was 10641??? and from whom???? the journalist taking notes in front of her???

And it’s that number alone that leads her to say “that his mother must have come in after I did” even though “she never met Obama’s mother” ???? — Never??? even years later???

What a contrived piece of prrefabrication.


The birth certificate number issue was originally raised by so-called “birthers” over a year ago and the Nordyke Twins’ numbers were being used as evidence to “prove” that Obama’s COLB was fraudulent. That’s how she knows.
The following is from nearly a year ago from right here on Free Republic:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2303014/posts


105 posted on 05/15/2010 10:59:26 AM PDT by jamese777
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

YEP!, yep, and yep. His white trash mama could have squirted his skinny ass out on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, and IF papa was Hussein Sr. (Kenyan citizen) then Jr. ain’t now and NEVER will be eligible to hold the Office of President of the United States.


106 posted on 05/15/2010 11:07:00 AM PDT by 762X51
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To: jamese777

Thanks, you proved my point —


107 posted on 05/15/2010 11:08:04 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip

Thanks, you proved my point —


You’re welcome. Glad that I could help.


108 posted on 05/15/2010 11:13:31 AM PDT by jamese777
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To: Smokeyblue
Nordkye said she doesn’t know who Obama’s mother’s doctor was, but only five obstetricians were at the hospital at the time, she said. Birthers have complained that the name of the attending physician is being hidden.

*******

The 5 Kapiolani Hospital Obstetricians: If a good investigative reporter could find the names of those five obstetricians, we might be able to find out if Obama was or was not born in that hospital afterall.

As I see it, those 5 doctors could be the key to this Obama birth certificate controversy because I believe that they are NOT bound by privacy laws when they say something like the following: "yes, I delivered Obama" or "No, I did not deliver Obama.", but I know who did."

Tracking down those 5 doctors and their families would be a great historical event for some brave and skilled investigative reporter, I believe.

Does anyone have the names of those 5 obstetricians? If we could finally find their names, that would be a great find of enormous historical significance, in my opinion.

109 posted on 05/15/2010 11:14:41 AM PDT by john mirse
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To: john mirse

I’ve previously discussed my experience as a title clerk for an automobile dealership in college. Each dealership received a block of title numbers (and license plates) to use when titling new vehicles sold at the dealership. The title clerk worked for the dealership, not the DMV, and was a notary. During that discussion I posed that the hospitals could have operated in the same manner with the DOH, where a hospital employee, likely a head nurse(s) assigned the certificate numbers to the birth certificates from a pre-assigned block of numbers allocated to the hospital.

So, given that scenario, the charge nurse could have, theoretically, stamped/assigned the certificate number on a blank birth certificate form and given it to the delivery staff to have on-hand in the birthing room to record pertinent information about the birth and have the physician sign the birth certificate after delivery. That process would prevent fraud and save the physician from having to review and sign several birth certificates at a later time.

So if Stanley Ann was admitted after Mrs. Nordyke, then her delivery room and paperwork would have been assigned after Mrs. Nordyke’s.

I know from experience that the physician signed a bunch of hospital paperwork in the delivery room right after each of my children were born. He declared the time of birth and all that right there in the delivery room.

So it makes sense to me. I’m sure the birthers will disagree.


110 posted on 05/15/2010 11:16:04 AM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Honesty, Character, & Loyalty still matter)
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To: DoughtyOne
When my son was born I pick out the wrong baby in the window. The guy next to me said, no that's yours with the black hair. Nobody ever in our family had black hair when born. He is still my accountant today. That's the only person I remembered.
111 posted on 05/15/2010 11:16:10 AM PDT by AGreatPer (Impeach Obama)
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To: john mirse

The 5 Kapiolani Hospital Obstetricians: If a good investigative reporter could find the names of those five obstetricians, we might be able to find out if Obama was or was not born in that hospital afterall.

As I see it, those 5 doctors could be the key to this Obama birth certificate controversy because I believe that they are NOT bound by privacy laws when they say something like the following: “yes, I delivered Obama” or “No, I did not deliver Obama.”, but I know who did.”

Tracking down those 5 doctors and their families would be a great historical event for some brave and skilled investigative reporter, I believe.

Does anyone have the names of those 5 obstetricians? If we could finally find their names, that would be a great find of enormous historical significance, in my opinion.


Here’s one of them. Dr. West was in semi-retirement in 1961 but he did still perform deliveries.

According to testimony from an Obama family friend President Obama was born in Kapi’olani Medical Center for Women & Children in Honolulu, who learned this from the doctor in charge of the hospital that delivered Obama.

When Barack Hussein Obama places his hand on the Bible today to take the oath of office as 44th president of the United States, Barbara Nelson of Kenmore will undoubtedly think back to the day he was born. It was Aug. 4, 1961, at Kapi’olani Medical Center for Women & Children in Honolulu.

“I may be the only person left who specifically remembers his birth. His parents are gone, his grandmother is gone, the obstetrician who delivered him is gone,” said Nelson, referring to Dr. Rodney T. West, who died in February at the age of 98. Here’s the story: Nelson was having dinner at the Outrigger Canoe Club on Waikiki Beach with Dr. West, the father of her college friend, Jo-Anne. Making conversation, Nelson turned to Dr. West and said: “‘So, tell me something interesting that happened this week,’” she recalls.

His response: “Well, today, Stanley had a baby. Now that’s something to write home about.”

The new mother was Stanley (later referred to by her middle name of Ann) Dunham, and the baby was Barack Hussein Obama.

“I penned the name on a napkin, and I did write home about it,” said Nelson, knowing that her father, Stanley A. Czurles, director of the Art Education Department at Buffalo State College, would be interested in the “Stanley” connection.

She also remembers Dr. West mentioning that the baby’s father was the first black student at the University of Hawaii and how taken he was by the baby’s name.

Source: The Buffalo News, January 26, 2009


112 posted on 05/15/2010 11:20:48 AM PDT by jamese777
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To: AGreatPer

Nice story. I appreciate the mention. I can see that happening in other round-about ways too.


113 posted on 05/15/2010 11:23:31 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Excusaholic: MeCain lost to Jr., RINO endorsements are flying, & you live at 2012 Denial Blvd.)
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To: john mirse

Dr. Rodney West was one of those obstetricians.

Here’s an article about Barbara Nelson who claims to remember having a discussion with Dr. West about a woman named Stanley giving birth.

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/more-testimony-obama-was-born-in-k/


114 posted on 05/15/2010 11:25:05 AM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Honesty, Character, & Loyalty still matter)
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To: BuckeyeTexan
So, given that scenario, the charge nurse could have, theoretically, stamped/assigned the certificate number on a blank birth certificate form and given it to the delivery staff to have on-hand in the birthing room to record pertinent information about the birth and have the physician sign the birth certificate after delivery. That process would prevent fraud and save the physician from having to review and sign several birth certificates at a later time.

So if Stanley Ann was admitted after Mrs. Nordyke, then her delivery room and paperwork would have been assigned after Mrs. Nordyke’s.

******

It sounds as if you believe that those numbers that we see stamped on the top of the birth certificates were assigned at the hospital and NOT at Hawaii Vital Statistics? Is that what you are saying?

As you may know, there are two numbers BETWEEN the Nordyke twins numbers and Obama's number.

Are you saying that Obama's mother probably not only came to the delivery room AFTER Mrs. Nordyke, she also came into the delivery room AFTER two other mothers, and that is why Obama's number is so far down the list from the Nordyke twins numbers? Thanks.

115 posted on 05/15/2010 11:33:07 AM PDT by john mirse
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To: jarofants

“Lets say he was born in Hawaii. His father was a not born in the U.S. so he is not a natural born citizen.”

Great. Now get someone, anyone, anyone at all, in Congress, the USSC, or a major legal think tank to agree with you.


116 posted on 05/15/2010 11:36:22 AM PDT by El Sordo (The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.)
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To: jamese777
Here’s one of them. Dr. West was in semi-retirement in 1961 but he did still perform deliveries. According to testimony from an Obama family friend President Obama was born in Kapi’olani Medical Center for Women & Children in Honolulu, who learned this from the doctor in charge of the hospital that delivered Obama.

When Barack Hussein Obama places his hand on the Bible today to take the oath of office as 44th president of the United States, Barbara Nelson of Kenmore will undoubtedly think back to the day he was born. It was Aug. 4, 1961, at Kapi’olani Medical Center for Women & Children in Honolulu.

******

Thanks for posting the article on Dr. West. I have seen it many times on the internet in the past.

One down and four Kapiolani obstetricians to go.

Just wondering: When we finally see Obama's Hawaii long form birth certificate, do you think that Dr. West's name will be on it, or do you think that the birth certificate will have another doctor's name on it?

117 posted on 05/15/2010 11:42:49 AM PDT by john mirse
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To: john mirse

Thanks for posting the article on Dr. West. I have seen it many times on the internet in the past.

One down and four Kapiolani obstetricians to go.

Just wondering: When we finally see Obama’s Hawaii long form birth certificate, do you think that Dr. West’s name will be on it, or do you think that the birth certificate will have another doctor’s name on it?


Who knows? But I have no reason to doubt Ms. Nelson’s recollection, so I guess my money’s on Dr. West.
However what I would like to see is a Grand Jury investigation which would mean subpoena power to release the long form certificate and also testimony taken under oath. Perhaps Mrs. Nordyke and Ms. Nelson could testify.


118 posted on 05/15/2010 11:49:24 AM PDT by jamese777
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To: BuckeyeTexan
Dr. Rodney West was one of those obstetricians.

Here’s an article about Barbara Nelson who claims to remember having a discussion with Dr. West about a woman named Stanley giving birth.

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/more-testimony-obama-was-born-in-k/

******

Dr. West: I find it strange that Dr. West is the only Hawaii obstetrician whose name comes up over and over again on message boards.

What happened to the other four obstetricians at the hospital who Mrs. Nordyke talks about? They seemed to have vanished from the face of the earth.

And what about Obama's mother doctor? I would think that she visited a Hawaiian doctor regularly before she delivered her baby? Does anyone know who her regular doctor was?

My point is this: I don't think that Obama's mother suddenly appeared at the hospital as if she was a homeless person and the first time she saw the obstetrician who delivered her baby was when she was wheeled into the delivery room.

I think it would be more reasonable to believe that Obama's mother's obstetrician was someone who she had been visiting for several months and who she knew a long time before she went to the hospital to have her baby, Obama.

119 posted on 05/15/2010 12:19:53 PM PDT by john mirse
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To: Smokeyblue

Well, then that settles it. We can all go home and eat bonbons now knowing the truth. /s


120 posted on 05/15/2010 12:25:17 PM PDT by VideoDoctor
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To: john mirse
It sounds as if you believe that those numbers that we see stamped on the top of the birth certificates were assigned at the hospital and NOT at Hawaii Vital Statistics? Is that what you are saying?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

As you may know, there are two numbers BETWEEN the Nordyke twins numbers and Obama's number.

Yes. If the hospital was assigned a block of certificate numbers, then there have to be two other births recorded for those numbers -OR- one or both of the numbers (10639 &10640) were voided. (If I made a mistake on the paperwork when titling a car, such as mispelling the owner's name, I had to void the registration number I had assigned to that vehicle, assign a new number, and notarize a statement in a DMV book listing the voided registration number. It was required to prevent fraud/abuse by title clerks.)

Are you saying that Obama's mother probably not only came to the delivery room AFTER Mrs. Nordyke, she also came into the delivery room AFTER two other mothers, and that is why Obama's number is so far down the list from the Nordyke twins numbers? Thanks.

Yes, that's what I'm saying - if the scenario I posed is accurate and I'm not swearing that it is, only that it is possible based on my personal experience.

121 posted on 05/15/2010 12:49:39 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Honesty, Character, & Loyalty still matter)
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To: john mirse
Our records show that Dr. Rodney T. West was Chief of Staff at Kapiolani Hospital in 1953. He was certified by the American Board of Obstetrics & Gynecology in 1958 and practiced at The Straub Clinic and Hospital until his retirement in December 1977.
Thank you for your interest.
The Queens Medical Center
Mamiya Medical Heritage Center
If Dr. West was practicing at Straub (which merged with Kapiolani), as alleged above, he could have been Stanley Ann's obstetrician throughout her pregnancy. Again, I'm just suggesting not asserting.
122 posted on 05/15/2010 12:56:30 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Honesty, Character, & Loyalty still matter)
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To: BuckeyeTexan

Ha, very funny. I misspelled “mispelling.”


123 posted on 05/15/2010 12:57:52 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Honesty, Character, & Loyalty still matter)
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To: BuckeyeTexan
It sounds as if you believe that those numbers that we see stamped on the top of the birth certificates were assigned at the hospital and NOT at Hawaii Vital Statistics? Is that what you are saying?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

*******

So, if we find out that those numbers stamped on top of the Nordyke and Obama birth certificates were stamped there by a Hawaii official/clerk at the Hawaii Department of Health, then I guess your theory is wrong.

124 posted on 05/15/2010 1:00:13 PM PDT by john mirse
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To: BuckeyeTexan

But Janice Okubo has already said that the certificate numbers were given by the state registrar on the “date filed”. There weren’t pre-numbered certificates at the hospital, which is what Mrs. Nordyke’s theory depends on.

Mrs. Nordyke’s suggestions are just grasping at straws that the HDOH has already said don’t work.

Interesting, too, that she says she never saw Ann Dunham. During a time when stays after delivery were longer and mothers visited their babies in the nursery, I would think she would have seen Ann when they were both checking on their babies - especially remembering seeing Ann because of her Black son, and especially also remembering if she saw BHO Sr, because he is such a dark man.


125 posted on 05/15/2010 1:15:10 PM PDT by butterdezillion
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To: BuckeyeTexan
I know from experience that the physician signed a bunch of hospital paperwork in the delivery room right after each of my children were born. He declared the time of birth and all that right there in the delivery room.

The problem with that theory is the reason the Nordyke twins' announcement appeared in the papers so late: the delivering doctor didn't sign the birth certificates until  six days later. The physician would have signed or made notations on  the hospital chart immediately following the birth, but that doesn't have any bearing on the certs.

Most of the young 'uns in our family were born in the '70's, and the general routine was that the nurse would bring a form to the mother within the first 24 hours after birth, ask her the questions and write the answers down. The numbered birth certificate would then come in the mail from the DOH a few weeks later in photostat form, the same as the Nordykes' in appearance, with instructions on how to inform the DOH if there were any errors on the form. It probably varied from state to state.

No one's really certain just what the routine was in Hawaii in '61, or how the BC's were numbered back then, and whether they were numbered at the hospital or at the DOH. Nordyke's just making a guess, the same as the eligibility-ists have.

And Nordyke isn't saying anything new in this article, nor is she necessarily lying. It's her perception of how it happened, and bless her soul, she's 82 years old.

126 posted on 05/15/2010 1:27:53 PM PDT by browardchad ("Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own fact." - Daniel P Moynihan)
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To: john mirse

Actually, the number wouldn’t be a problem. I’m almost certain that the BC number Obama used was from a child born on Aug 4 at Kapiolani. That child’s number was later than Nordykes’ because it was beneath the Nordykes’ in the pile, having been born before the Nordykes.

But that number wasn’t Obama’s. I believe it belonged to a little girl who was born on Aug 4th and died on Aug 5th.

We know that number wasn’t Obama’s because the “date filed” is 3 days earlier than the Nordykes’ “date filed”, which doesn’t work for a number later than the Nordykes’.

The date of birth wouldn’t necessarily impact the certificate number because the hospitals by law were required to collect BC’s for a week and then submit them to the state registrar, where they were given a number that same day. Kapiolani submitted theirs on Fridays - another reason why the Factcheck COLB doesn’t fit for a Kapiolani birth: the “date filed” is on a Tuesday, when all the BC’s for kids born after office hours on Friday, Aug 4th until right before the BC’s were delivered to the state registrar the following Friday would have a “date filed” of Aug 11, 1961.

People have talked about the earlier BC’s being on the bottom of the pile when it was given to the state registrar, and then being numbered from the top of the pile down so that earlier births may well have had later certificate numbers. That is true, for BC’s processed on the same day. That’s why the little girl who was born on the 4th probably had a number slightly later than the Nordykes’. There was probably one other person born between when she was born and when the Nordyke twins were born.

But a person who received a certificate number on a different DAY wouldn’t have that reverse-order effect. That’s why Obama’s “date filed” is the revealing item. It messes up what would otherwise have been a really handy substitution between Obama and this little girl, since she was born at the time and place where he wanted to claim he was born and had the birth certificate to match that time and place. Too bad (for Obama) that he screwed up the “date filed”. It reveals all.


127 posted on 05/15/2010 1:29:37 PM PDT by butterdezillion
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To: browardchad

Actually, Janice Okubo has said that the BC’s were numbered at the state registrar’s office on the “date filed”. She said that Oahu BC’s have always been received at the state registrar’s office and given a number by the state registrar on the same day - the “date filed”.

It blows Eleanor Nordyke’s theory out of the water.

I actually address that at http://butterdezillion.wordpress.com/2010/01/11/red-flags-in-hawaii-2/


128 posted on 05/15/2010 1:35:56 PM PDT by butterdezillion
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To: Smokeyblue
How exactly does her hospital "memory" contradict anything?

She said that while race now appears to be important to the birthers, it was a “non-issue at Punahou school.”

Forgetting the fact that this makes no sense, it's asinine.

129 posted on 05/15/2010 1:42:06 PM PDT by FTJM
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To: FTJM

How exactly does her hospital “memory” contradict anything?
She said that while race now appears to be important to the birthers, it was a “non-issue at Punahou school.”

Forgetting the fact that this makes no sense, it’s asinine.


If you’ve ever been interviewed by a reporter, who knows what she really said or how it was chopped up by an editor.


130 posted on 05/15/2010 2:50:27 PM PDT by jamese777
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To: jarofants
"Lets say he was born in Hawaii. His father was a not born in the U.S. so he is not a natural born citizen."

That is incorrect. Being born in the US is enough to be a "natural born citizen".

131 posted on 05/15/2010 3:32:34 PM PDT by mlo
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To: Nahanni
This could all be solved by Obamao releasing his records, including his COLB just like every other President has done.

I'm pretty darn old and I don't recall "every other President" releasing his CoLB, which,BTW, Obama has done.

One of the first acts he did as President was to issue an executive order sealing all of his records.

Not true. What Obama did is restore what Reagan put in place and George W. changed.

We all seem to forget that people who worked for one of Obama’s biggest supporters were found to be accessing and possibly tampering with his passport/State Dept. records.

Again, not true.

If you can't stick to the facts and make your case, then just maybe you ain't gotta case.

132 posted on 05/15/2010 3:42:39 PM PDT by lucysmom
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To: Beckwith
That’s some memory — remembering 3 birth certificate numbers for 50 years.

Or maybe cause such a fuss has been made about it all, her memories are recent.

133 posted on 05/15/2010 3:57:13 PM PDT by lucysmom
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To: butterdezillion
...especially remembering seeing Ann because of her Black son...

Black newborns don't always look black.

134 posted on 05/15/2010 4:20:02 PM PDT by lucysmom
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To: butterdezillion

This document from the National Center for Health Statistics describes the procedures for issuing birth, death, marriage, and divorce certificates in 1961. It specifies that:

- The physician, other health professional, or hospital authority is responsible for completing the entire birth certificate in consultation with the parents and that a physician’s signature is required. That same entity then filed the birth certificate with the local office in which the birth occurred.

- The local office, which may be a local registrar or city/country health department verifies the completeness and accuracy of the information on the certificate, makes a copy, ledger entry or index for local use and then forwards the certificate to the state registrar.

- The state registrar queries incomplete or inconsistent information; maintains files for permanent reference and as the source of certified copies; develops vital statistics for use in planning, evaluating, and administering State and local health activities and for research studies; compiles health related statistics for State and civil divisions of State for use of the health department and other agencies and groups; and prepares copies of birth, death, fetal death, marriage, and divorce certficates or records for transmission to the National Vital Statistics Division.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsus/vsus_1961_1.pdf

The document also provides a wealth of information about births by state, county, city, race, age of mother, etc. etc.

It was published in 1961 so it’s probably more authoritative than anything Janice Okubo says. Mrs. Nordyke’s theory doesn’t necessarily depend on “pre-numbered” certificates. If the hospital was issued a block of certificate numbers, they could have stamped the certificate numbers on the forms themselves.


135 posted on 05/15/2010 5:53:03 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Honesty, Character, & Loyalty still matter)
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To: BuckeyeTexan

http://popindex.princeton.edu/Articles/Weed.html


136 posted on 05/15/2010 6:07:23 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Honesty, Character, & Loyalty still matter)
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To: BuckeyeTexan

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/vsus.htm


137 posted on 05/15/2010 6:08:36 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Honesty, Character, & Loyalty still matter)
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To: FTJM

I lived in HI in part of the 70s and through most of the 80s. At the high schools I knew about (never knew anyone whose kids went to Punahou, too expensive), the kids hung out by racial groups. As though told to. Of course there are a lot of mixtures. But HI is in some ways a racist place, especially for haoles. Blacks are not liked a whole lot, in my experience. It may be different now. But “local people” often did not like those not similar to them.

Once I wound up with my kids at the “wrong” beach. We got out and were ready to go into the water and I felt people looking at us. We were the only white people on the beach, and the atmosphere was getting pretty thick. We tiptoed back to the car and zoomed off.


138 posted on 05/15/2010 6:19:47 PM PDT by little jeremiah (http://lifewurx.com - Good herb formulas made by a friend)
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To: BuckeyeTexan

The information from there should supplement what Okubo says has always been the case for Oahu birth certificates.

On page 232 of the document you cited as being more credible than Okubo it says:

“With few exceptions, records are numbered in the State offices of vital statistics as they are received from the local offices. The assignment of the last digit in the number is not selective, and the systematic sample of even-numbered records may be assumed to be unbiased. Furthermore, because the records are almost always in geographic order before numbering, twice the sample count of births occurrring in the great majority of counties in table 3-1 in Section 3 is virtually the same as the corresponding figure based on all records.”


139 posted on 05/15/2010 7:31:16 PM PDT by butterdezillion
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To: Smokeyblue

....Hawaii law prevents the release of full “long form” birth information to anyone but family members, Nordyke said, “so for the birthers to keep clamoring for it is ridiculous.” She said the leaders of the birther movement are using the false claims to reap financial gain.....

This is such a crock of bull, The Nordyke twins put their long form BC’s on the internet. Why did she omplain that Hawaii law prevents the release instead of just saying hey we put ours on the internet, WHy doesn’t Obama? I bet a dime to a dollat the reporter took the quote out of context, and for sure they didn’t ask the simple question why Obama won’t put his out when Mrs Nordyke’s duaghters put their’s out?


140 posted on 05/15/2010 8:02:04 PM PDT by rolling_stone (no more bailouts, the taxpayers are out of money!)
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To: butterdezillion

There’s another reason hospitals would not pre-assign numbers for birth certificates ... you might not have a live birth. In such a case, the baby would not receive a certificate of live birth, but a death certificate. There not going to assign numbers until they know the outcome of the birth.


141 posted on 05/15/2010 8:19:46 PM PDT by edge919
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To: rolling_stone

If anything, the Nordyke certificates call Obama’s certificate further into doubt. No skeptic I know questions her original story. Instead we question Obama’s legitimacy for having a certificate number that obviously belongs to someone else.


142 posted on 05/15/2010 8:21:55 PM PDT by edge919
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To: edge919

Excellent point.

As one who was admitted to the hospital so we could induce labor for our overdue daughter, only to have her die during monitoring, I am keenly aware that not all births are live births. That was 17 years ago but sometimes it feels like yesterday.

As I was looking at newspaper announcements from 1961 I was struck by the number of children who died, including infants. A lot of pain represented in each 2-line announcement.


143 posted on 05/15/2010 10:11:03 PM PDT by butterdezillion
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To: Smokeyblue

obumpa


144 posted on 05/15/2010 11:45:43 PM PDT by Dajjal (Justice Robert Jackson was wrong -- the Constitution IS a suicide pact.)
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To: butterdezillion

I didn’t suggest that the document contradicted anything Okubo has supposedly confirmed for you. I said it was probably more authoritative than Okubo. Birthers accuse Okubo of lying when it suits them and then cite her statements as definitive when it suits them.

The document was published in 1961. Okubo says that there is no documentation of 1961 procedures or definitions of terms used back then. This document provides some clarification of general data collection in 1961.

Take it for what it is not what you assume I am implying.


145 posted on 05/16/2010 12:07:22 AM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Honesty, Character, & Loyalty still matter)
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To: butterdezillion
The date of birth wouldn’t necessarily impact the certificate number because the hospitals by law were required to collect BC’s for a week and then submit them to the state registrar, where they were given a number that same day. Kapiolani submitted theirs on Fridays - another reason why the Factcheck COLB doesn’t fit for a Kapiolani birth: the “date filed” is on a Tuesday, when all the BC’s for kids born after office hours on Friday, Aug 4th until right before the BC’s were delivered to the state registrar the following Friday would have a “date filed” of Aug 11, 1961.

People have talked about the earlier BC’s being on the bottom of the pile when it was given to the state registrar, and then being numbered from the top of the pile down so that earlier births may well have had later certificate numbers. That is true, for BC’s processed on the same day. That’s why the little girl who was born on the 4th probably had a number slightly later than the Nordykes’. There was probably one other person born between when she was born and when the Nordyke twins were born.

But a person who received a certificate number on a different DAY wouldn’t have that reverse-order effect. That’s why Obama’s “date filed” is the revealing item. It messes up what would otherwise have been a really handy substitution between Obama and this little girl, since she was born at the time and place where he wanted to claim he was born and had the birth certificate to match that time and place. Too bad (for Obama) that he screwed up the “date filed”. It reveals all.

******

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say above. Maybe it is just me. I have read it over and over, but I still can't seem to grasp what you saying. Sorry.

So to help me, could you please go into more detail and use shorter sentences in your explanation above? Thanks.

I have enjoyed reading most of your other messages. It is just this one message above that is giving me problems. Thanks.

146 posted on 05/16/2010 5:29:41 AM PDT by john mirse
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To: john mirse

Sorry. Hopefully I can be clearer.

The certificate numbers didn’t necessarily go in numerical order by date of birth, because they were given numbers as they came in to the state registrar’s office. Each hospital was to collect certificates for a week and then take them altogether to the state registrar. The Wahiawa Hospital seems to have delivered theirs on Tuesdays. Kapiolani delivered theirs on Fridays.

Whenever the state registrar received a pile of certificates from the hospital, he had them numbered that same day. Depending on how the piles were sorted (or not sorted) before processing, the earlier births might be on the bottom of the pile and thus get processed later than the other BC’s in the pile for that day.

But all of the BC’s processed that day would have earlier numbers than any of the BC’s that came in the NEXT day.

So the BC’s might be out of chronological order from the BC’s processed on the same day. But whatever was processed on Day 1 would have earlier numbers than whatever was processed on Day 2, 3, or 4.

Obama’s problem is that his BC was processed on Day 1 but had a later number than the Nordyke BC’s which were processed on Day 4.

Does that make any more sense? Sometimes my words get tangled up.


147 posted on 05/16/2010 6:12:22 AM PDT by butterdezillion
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To: charo

Good point! Very, very interesting.

““She said she was very proud of her grandson who was doing community work in Chicago. She said her daughter had passed away and she helped to raise him.”

This makes it sound like Stanley Ann died during Obama’s childhood and that she raised him for that reason???”


148 posted on 05/16/2010 9:00:37 AM PDT by real_patriotic_american
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To: butterdezillion
Does that make any more sense? Sometimes my words get tangled up.

******

This is mirse. Thanks for taking the time to re-write your message. I think I understand your explanation better now. Thanks again.

149 posted on 05/16/2010 9:39:54 AM PDT by john mirse
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To: butterdezillion
Obama’s problem is that his BC was processed on Day 1 but had a later number than the Nordyke BC’s which were processed on Day 4.

******

1. How do we know that Obama's birth certificate was processed on Day 1 while the Nordyke twins' certificate was processed 3 days later on Day 4?

2. That is, if Obama and the Nordyke twins were born in the same Kapiolani Hospital just a day apart---Aug. 4 vs. Aug. 5---why couldn't Obama's birth certificate and the Nordyke twins' birth certificate be processed on the same day, say, Day 1 or on Day 4?

3. Day 1: How many days after Obama's birth on Aug. 4 is Day 1? Day 4? That is, what is the actual day of Day 1? Day 4? Thanks.

150 posted on 05/16/2010 9:57:12 AM PDT by john mirse
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