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Ex-FBI **LON HORIUCHI** Hired by H.S Precision, Inc. of South Dakota (rifle stocks)
Back cover of H.S. Precision's Catalog, very last line at bottom ^ | May 31, 2010 | me

Posted on 05/31/2010 7:38:16 PM PDT by TokuMei

H.S. Precision, Inc.

Lon Horiuchi was one of several snipers in a hide located at the back the Branch Davidian complex at Mount Carmel, Waco, Texas. Mr. Horiuchi was also in service at Ruby Ridge, where he shot Randy Weaver's wife in the head, killing her, as she held her baby.

Lon Horiuchi retired from the FBI in October of 2006 and was hired as "FBI Program Manager & COTR" at H.S. Precision, Inc., of Rapid City, South Dakota. This company makes high-quality fiberglass stocks, barrels, finished rifles, gunsmithing tools, and hunting apparel.

Their website is http://www.hsprecision.com and their telephone number in Rapid City, South Dakota is (605) 341-3006.

-----------------------------------------------------

1. Are you are precision shooter interested in the availability of H.S. Precision gun STOCKS? A list of their distributors appears below, and I think you should focus like a laser on the first three, since they're suuuuuper huge, totally suh-weeeet account$$$, ok...?

Brownell's
(800)741-0015
http://www.brownells.com

Cabela's
(800)237-4444
http://www.cabelas.com

Midway USA
(800)243-3220
http://www.midwayusa.com

Cloud Peak Gunworks
307-568-3009
http://www.cloudpeakgunworks.com

M.B.I., Inc. 1106 North G Ste B Lake Worth, FL 33460 http://www.StockysStocks.com http://www.NewGunStocks.com

--------------------------------------------------

2. Are you a hunter or precision shooter interested in the availability of H.S. Precision, Inc. hunting-related products? Info pertaining to their hunting product distributors appears below and is current as of 5/31/2010:

Cloud Peak Gunworks
http://www.cloudpeakgunworks.com
307-568-3009

Bill Hicks CO
15155 23 Ave North
Minneapolis, MN 55447
Buyer - Matt
P-763-476-6200
F-763-476-8963

Guns West II
509-248-7710

Territorial Supplies
1932 HWY 95
Council, ID 83612
800-221-7702
Territorialshooters.com

Hendershots
110 W. Main ST.
Hancock, MD 21750
301-678-6869
www.hendershots.net

.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: banglist; fbi; hsprecision; lonhoriuchi; randyweaver; vickiweaver
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1 posted on 05/31/2010 7:38:17 PM PDT by TokuMei
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To: Travis McGee; Lurker

Y’all seen this?


2 posted on 05/31/2010 7:40:32 PM PDT by Vigilantcitizen
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To: TokuMei
Pretty incendiary.

I like it.

3 posted on 05/31/2010 7:40:44 PM PDT by elkfersupper (Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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To: TokuMei

Why not tell ALL YOUR HUNTING/SHOOTING FRIENDS?

Cut and paste, then email..?


4 posted on 05/31/2010 7:40:50 PM PDT by TokuMei
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To: TokuMei

WTF? I thought some other gun company hired this criminal POS before and dumped him because gun owners hate his stinking guts.


5 posted on 05/31/2010 7:42:50 PM PDT by Frantzie (Democrats = Party of I*lam)
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To: TokuMei

I would not buy any of their products, nor would I take any of their products if they give them to me as long as this sob is associated with them.


6 posted on 05/31/2010 7:46:23 PM PDT by sport
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To: TokuMei

I’d heard Horiuchi worked for HS sometime ago. I know they’ve gotten a lot of feedback about this. Why on earth do they continue to employ this scum?


7 posted on 05/31/2010 7:46:35 PM PDT by bereanway (Sarah get your gun)
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To: TokuMei
I'm glad that I have never killed a pregnant woman holding a baby. Methinks there might be a special place in hell for those types of people.

5.56mm

8 posted on 05/31/2010 7:47:25 PM PDT by M Kehoe
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To: TokuMei

No Shame; No Honor.
9 posted on 05/31/2010 7:48:00 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: TokuMei

Don’t worry. He’s on the list.


10 posted on 05/31/2010 7:48:05 PM PDT by Vigilantcitizen
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To: Frantzie
This is from 2008: Gun Company (H-S Precision) hires thug/murderer LON HORIUCHI as spokeperson
11 posted on 05/31/2010 7:48:20 PM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Liberal Logic: Mandatory health insurance is constitutional - enforcing immigration law is not.)
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To: TokuMei

They all knew about it 2 years ago.


12 posted on 05/31/2010 7:51:45 PM PDT by omega4179 (www.jdforsenate.com)
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To: bereanway

Speaking of scum, what happened to Larry Potts?


13 posted on 05/31/2010 7:51:57 PM PDT by BwanaNdege
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To: TokuMei
Didn't the FBI and the US government put this Mother ***** in the witness protection program so the Idaho state attorney couldn't serve him with a warrant ?
14 posted on 05/31/2010 7:51:59 PM PDT by Charlespg
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To: omega4179

Lon won’t change and neither will H.S..

What if they lost their top 3 accounts —think THAT would make them notice..?

I wouldn’t call H.S., I’d simply call one or all of those 3 accounts —MUCH more effective.


15 posted on 05/31/2010 7:53:41 PM PDT by TokuMei
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To: Charlespg

There is no statute of limitations for murder.


16 posted on 05/31/2010 7:54:38 PM PDT by coloradan (The US has become a banana republic, except without the bananas - or the republic.)
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To: bereanway

I wonder how the people feel at HS Precision in South Dakota who have to work with this POS coward?


17 posted on 05/31/2010 7:55:31 PM PDT by Mtn Pass
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To: Charlespg
Didn't the FBI and the US government put this Mother ***** in the witness protection program so the Idaho state attorney couldn't serve him with a warrant ?

They didn't bother to go to all that hassle. The US Attorney (supported by a federal judge) just asserted federal jurisdiction and moved the case to federal court where it was promptly dismissed with prejudice, so the case couldn't be re-filed.

18 posted on 05/31/2010 7:58:20 PM PDT by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: Mtn Pass

VI. CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS

January - May 1985

U.S. Secret Service (”USSS”) investigates allegations from neighbors of Randy Weaver that Weaver threatened to kill President Reagan, Idaho Governor John Evans and other unspecified law enforcement officials. USSS learns through interviews that Weaver associates with members of the Aryan Nations.USSS interviews Weaver who denies affiliation with Aryan Nations and denies making threats against President Reagan and Governor Evans. No charges are filed against Weaver as result of alleges threats.On February 28, 1985, Weaver and his wife, Vicki Weaver, file affidavit with Boundary County Idaho clerk claiming that false allegations made to USSS were part of a plot designed to provoke federal authorities into storming their home. Weaver writes he “may have to defend myself and my family from physical attack on my life.”In May 1985, Weaver sends letter to President Reagan apologizing for false allegations made by his neighbors against him. July, 1986 - July 1989 BATF informant Kenneth Fadeley introduced to Weaver at World Aryan Congress, Hayden lake, Idaho. Fadeley meets Weaver again in January 1987 and at July 1987 and July 1989 Aryan World Congresses. At July 1989 Congress, Weaver invites Fadeley to his house to discuss forming group to fight against “Zionist Organized Government” (ZOG). October 11, 1989 BATF informant Fadeley meets with Weaver at restaurant in Sandpoint, Idaho at which time Weaver says he could supply sawed-off shotguns. October 24, 1989 Weaver sells two sawed-off shotguns to BATF informant Fadeley in a park in sandpoint, Idaho. Fadeley breaks contact with Weaver following November 30, 1989 meeting, when Weaver accuses Fadeley of being a “cop”.

May 21, 1990

BATF Agent Herbert Byerly submits case report to U.S. Attorney’s Office, Boise, Idaho, recommending that Weaver be prosecuted for the sale of sawed-off shotguns.June 12, 1990 BATF agents Byerly and Steve Gunderson approach Weaver in Sandpoint, Idaho, and attempt to enlist him as an informant regarding illegal activities of Aryan Nations members. Weaver says he won’t be a “snitch.”December 13, 1990 A federal grand jury in the District of Idaho indicts Weaver for manufacturing and possessing unregistered firearms in violation of 26 USC =15 5861(d), (f).January 17, 1991 BATF agents, posing as stranded motorists, arrest Weaver on weapons charge. Weaver tells the arresting agents, “nice trick; you’ll never do that again.”January 18, 1991 Weaver arraigned before U.S. Magistrate Judge Stephen M. Ayers in Couer d’Alene, Idaho. Judge Ayers appoints Everett Hofmeister as counsel for Weaver, releases Weaver on a $10,000 Personal Recognizance Bond and directs Weaver to appear at U.S. District Court for trial on February 19, 1991. January 22, 1991 Weaver calls Karl Richins pursuant to the terms of his condition of release. February 5, 1991 U.S. District Court Clerk in Boise, Idaho, sends a notice to the parties that the trial date has been changed to February 20, 1991. February 7, 1991 The U.S. Attorney’s office in Boise, Idaho receives two letters from Vicki Weaver dated January 22, 1991 and February 3, 1991 and addressed to “the Queen of Babylon.” Because the letters appeared to contain veiled threats they are provided to the Boise office of the (cut off....)

February 7, 1991

U.S. Probation Officer Karl Richins = sends Randy Weaver a letter requesting Weaver to contact him and then erroneously refers to the trial date as March 20, 1991 rather than the correct date of February 20, 1991. February 20, 1991 Weaver does not appear for trial on either February 19 or February 20 and Chief U.S. District Court Judge Harold Ryan issues a bench warrant for Weaver.March 5, 1991 Deputy U.S. Marshals Hunt and Mays initiate contacts with Bill and Judy Grider, who are friends of the Weavers. The Griders give the marshals a letter signed by the Weaver family saying “we will not obey your lawless government.”March 14, 1991 A federal grand jury in the District of Idaho indicts Weaver for failure to appear.March 18, 1991 Chief Deputy U.S. Marshal Ron Evans, District of Idaho, provides Marshals Service Headquarters with analysis of Weaver situation and requests assistance from the Marshals Service’s Special Operations Group (”SOG”). March 28, 1991 Evans briefs SOG personnel at SOG Tactical Center in Camp Beauregard, Louisiana on developments in the Weaver case. The decision is made to send SOG team to Idaho to gather information to develop plan to arrest Weaver. June 17-24, 1991 SOG reconnaissance team travels to Northeastern Idaho and conducts assessment of the Weaver case. The team develops a plan for the safe arrest of Weaver on his property and away from his wife and children. Plan describes Weaver as “extremely dangerous and suicidal.”

July 9, 1991

Deputy Marshal Cluff and Weaver’s appointed counsel, Everett Hofmeister, meet with Rodney Willey and ask Willey to try and convince Weaver to surrender. Willey reports the following day that Weaver said he won’t surrender because his “rights will be violated.”September 28, 1991 SOG team dispatched to Northern Idaho to assist in the planned arrest of Weaver. However, plan to arrest Weaver is canceled because team finds that information on which plan was based was not accurate.October 9, 1991 Senior Deputy Marshal Hunt and Chief Deputy Marshal Evans ask Alan Jeppeson, a friend of the Weavers, to convey an offer of negotiations to Weaver. The marshals formulate formal surrender terms.October 12, 1991 Hunt and Evans propose offering formal surrender terms to Weaver and request authorization from the U.S. Attorney’s Office.October 17, 1991 Assistant U.S. Attorney Ronald Howen sends letter to Hunt and Evans directing that all contact with Weaver must be through Weavers’ appointed counsel, Everett Hoffmeister. In addition, Howen does not authorize further negotiations with Weaver as proposed by the Marshals Service.March 4, 1992 Deputy Marshal Cluff and Chief Deputy Marshal Evans drive up to Weaver property in an unmarked vehicle. They are met by Randy Weaver, who is armed with a rifle. Weaver tells Cluff and Evans that they are trespassing and the marshals leave without incident.

March 27, 1992

Acting Marshals Service Director Henry Hudson was briefed on developments in the Weaver case. Hudson asks U.S. Attorney Maurice Ellsworth to consider dismissing warrant and reissuing it under seal. Ellsworth rejects the proposal. Hudson directs that any plan to arrest Weaver must eliminate possibility of harm to Vicki Weaver and the Weaver children.Marshals Service Enforcement Division Branch Chief Arthur Roderick is given primary responsibility for devising a suitable plan to arrest Weaver. Three phase operation plan is developed.April 2-12, 1992 During Phase I of their operation plan, the marshals conduct surveillance of the Weaver property and determine technical requirements for additional surveillance. April 13, 1992 Acting Director Hudson approves operation plan for Phase II, during which surveillance cameras would be utilized to gather information about Weavers’ daily actions so that options could be developed for Phase III, the actual arrest of Weaver.

April 17 through 1st week of May, 1992

Marshals install surveillance cameras on ridges = overlooking Weaver property and make three fact-finding trips = onto the Weaver property.

April 18, 1992

Marshals Service are informed that the television crew from Geraldo Rivera’s program “Now It Can Be Told” may have been shot at while flying over the Weaver property in a helicopter.May 5, 1992 Marshals Service surveillance camera stolen from the north ridge overlooking the Weaver property.

May 27, 1992

Undercover plan developed by Marshals Service after Acting Director Hudson rejects plans to forcibly arrest Weaver using either “lethal” or “non-lethal” weapons. = Undercover operation contemplates Marshal Service surreptitiously buying a plot of land north of the Weaver property and that two deputy marshals, posing as husband and wife, would visit and develop the property, and that eventually an opportunity would arise to arrest Weaver out of the presence of other family members. Plan put on hold pending Hudson’s confirmation as Director by U.S. Senate.

Early August, 1992

Hudson gives verbal approval to the undercover plan after = being confirmed as Marshals Service Director.

August 17, 1992

Deputy Marshals Degan, Cooper, Roderick Norris, Thomas and = Hunt arrive in Northern Idaho to update intelligence for = undercover plan.

August 20, 1992

Deputy Marshals Roderick, Cooper, Degan, and Hunt, along with local marshal and deputy sheriffs use firing range west of Spokane, Washington to test their weapons as required by internal Marshals Service practice.

Friday, August 21, 1992.

At 2:30 a.m., Marshals Service team of Roderick, Cooper, Degan, Hunt, Norris and Thomas leave condominium at Schweitzer Mountain to begin surveillance of Weaver residence. At 4:30 a.m., Marshals Service team arrives at residence of Wayne and Ruth Rau, park their vehicle and move to surveillance positions on Ruby Ridge. The team splits into two three-man teams at the “Y.” The observation post (”OP”) team (Hunt, Norris and Thomas) goes to site above the Weaver compound while the reconnaissance (”Recon”) team (Roderick, Cooper and Degan) proceeds up the trail from “Y” toward the Weaver compound.

Friday, August 21, 1992

At 9:00 a.m. the Recon team joins the OP team at the = observation post above the Weaver compound to discuss their = observations. The Recon team proceeds to area 200-250 yards from the Weaver cabin were Roderick tosses rocks in the direction of = the Weaver compound. The Recon team moves to garden/spring house = area below the Weaver cabin.

At 10:00 a.m., while Recon team gets ready to leave = garden/spring house area, Norris, at the observation post, radios = that a vehicle is approaching and that the Weavers are responding. = Recon team retreats through the woods toward the fern field while pursued by Kevin Harris and the Weaver dog, Striker. As the Recon team passes the fern field proceeding towards the “Y”, Sammy Weaver is seen with Harris and the dog in pursuit.

At 10:30 a.m., a gun battle occurs at the “Y”, in which = Deputy Marshal Degan and Sammy Weaver are killed. Upon hearing the = shots the OP team runs through the woods to assist the Recon team = and are fired upon when running from the fern field to the “Y.” = None of the marshals are aware that Sammy Weaver has been shot and killed.

At 10:45 a.m., Hunt and Thomas leave the “Y” to go to the Rau house to call for assistance. Roderick, Cooper and Norris stay with Degan’s body.

At 11:20 a.m., Hunt makes a 911 emergency call to the = Boundary County Sheriff’s office. Bonners Ferry, Idaho.

At 11:40 a.m., the Marshals Service Crisis Center is activated under the director of Duke Smith, Associate Director for Operations. The Marshals Service Special Operations Group (”SOG”) is alerted to deploy. Hunt reports to the Crisis Center that the surveillance team came under fire from occupants of the Weaver compound and are still pinned down in defensive positions.

At 1:30 p.m., in Washington, D.C., Marshals Service = Director Hudson and other Marshals Service officials meet with = FBI Associate Deputy Director Douglas Gow and FBI Assistant = Director Larry Potts to discuss the response to the shooting = and the marshals predicament on Ruby Ridge.

In the late afternoon, Assistant Director Potts = orders the FBI Hostage Rescue Team (”HRT”) deployed.

At 6:30 p.m., HRT Commander Richard Rogers and the advance team of HRT personnel depart for Idaho accompanied by Marshals Service Director of Operations Duke Smith. While en route, Rogers has a series of conversations with Assistant Director Potts and Deputy Assistant Director Coulson about proposed Rules of Engagement.

At 1:00 p.m., the Idaho State Police Critical Response Team (”CRI”) is informed of the incident and proceed to form a command post near the Rau house.

At 8:30 p.m., Idaho State Police CRT leaves the command post to rescue Deputy Marshals Roderick, Cooper, and Norris and the body of Marshal Degan.

At 9:30 p.m., FBI Special Agent in Charge Gene Glenn arrives at the command post at Ruby Ridge. Glenn assumes overall responsibility for the FBI operations at Ruby Ridge.In the afternoon, U.S. Marshal Michael Johnson notifies U.S. Attorney Ellsworth of the shooting at Ruby Ridge. Ellsworth sends Ron Howen to Ruby Ridge to act as the U.S. Attorney’s representative. Howen arrives at Ruby Ridge late in the evening.

Saturday, August 22, 1992

At 1:00 a.m., Idaho State Police CRT arrives back = at the command post and brings with it the three = deputy marshals and the body of Deputy Marshal Degan. = Thereafter, the marshals are taken to the Boundary County Hospital for examination and then are taken back to their condominium at Schweitzer Mountain, arriving at approximately 3:00 a.m. Sometime in the afternoon, FBI agents interview the marshals involved in the August 21 incident. A criminal complaint is filed charging Weaver and Harris with murder of Deputy Marshal Degan in violation of 1: U.S.C. =15=15 111, 1111 and 1114.At 4:45 a.m., the HRT advance team arrives at (cut off...)

At 9:00, a.m., HRT Commander Rogers briefs HRT = members at the National Guard Armory, Bonners Ferry, = Idaho. The Rules of Engagement are still being drafted.

At 10:30 a.m., the HRT and SOG are assembling the operations plan.At 2:40 p.m., the operations plan, including Rules of Engagement, are sent to FBI Headquarters and the Marshals Service for review.

Between 2:30-3:30 p.m., the HRT sniper/observers = briefed on approved Rules of Engagement and depart = on foot to their observation posts on the mountain.

From 5:07 p.m. to 5:22 p.m., the HRT sniper/observer = teams arrive at their positions on the ridge overlooking = the Weaver cabin. At approximately 5:58 p.m., HRT = sniper/observer Lon Horiuchi fires round which wounds Randy = Weaver. Seconds later, Horiuchi fires a round which kills = Vicki Weaver and wounds Kevin Harris.


19 posted on 05/31/2010 7:58:33 PM PDT by jedgarlives
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To: TokuMei

Got it, no more orders to:

Brownell’s

Cabela’s

Midway USA


20 posted on 05/31/2010 7:58:56 PM PDT by NoLibZone (Liberals are right. The AZ situation is like Nazi Germany. Mexico is Germany and Arizona is Poland)
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To: BwanaNdege

Dunno. Did he work for the Clinton Admin?


21 posted on 05/31/2010 8:02:10 PM PDT by bereanway (Sarah get your gun)
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To: NoLibZone

Good job. This guy is the biggest POS. I cannot believe this company employs him.


22 posted on 05/31/2010 8:02:32 PM PDT by Frantzie (Democrats = Party of I*lam)
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To: jedgarlives

Let me make sure I have this straight: white Supremeist nut job who once threatened to kill Pres. Reagan and who brainwashed his son to point where son killed a Federal Agent enforcing a lawful arrest warrant, refused to surrender to police, and thereafter had his pregnant wife hold open door instead of at least letting her surrender and at least getting her out of harms way, and agent was following order to shoot armed male and actually did shoot armed male (Harris) bullet went through his shoulder and killed women who never should have been there in first place. Agent is the bad guy. Okay. Now I know why people think the “right” is nuts.


23 posted on 05/31/2010 8:05:41 PM PDT by jedgarlives
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To: Mtn Pass

I can’t believe the shooting community hasn’t forced HS to kick this guy to the curb. Maybe it just isn’t that widely known.


24 posted on 05/31/2010 8:06:57 PM PDT by bereanway (Sarah get your gun)
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To: BwanaNdege

Ok, I see who Potts is.


25 posted on 05/31/2010 8:17:47 PM PDT by bereanway (Sarah get your gun)
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To: jedgarlives

Maybe you need to re-read what really happened. They came on their land, killed the boy’s dog, the kid had no idea who they were and shot back.

Still you sound like someone who can raionalize shooting a woman holding a baby. Go away.


26 posted on 05/31/2010 8:20:07 PM PDT by Frantzie (Democrats = Party of I*lam)
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To: NoLibZone

My plan too. I’ll let them know why tomorrow.


27 posted on 05/31/2010 8:23:27 PM PDT by Eagles6 ( Typical White Guy: Christian, Constitutionalist, Heterosexual, Redneck.)
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To: Frantzie

Look at his name. They can rationalize anything if they are ordered to do it.


28 posted on 05/31/2010 8:24:17 PM PDT by 'smith
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To: TokuMei

Very good, I’ll pass this on.


29 posted on 05/31/2010 8:24:46 PM PDT by Eagles6 ( Typical White Guy: Christian, Constitutionalist, Heterosexual, Redneck.)
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To: jedgarlives

The biggest issue was that the Federal government changed the rules of engagement to what was essentially a “shoot to kill” rule. Between the outrage over that and Waco, Federal law enforcement hasn’t changed the rules of engagement since then. A few incidents that could have ended in bloodshed since then (The Freemen in Montana, the arrest of Warren Jeffs of the Polygamist Mormons) were handled very professionally.

Government can easily slide into abuse of their power unless people are vigilant. It’s true that Randy Weaver and David Koresh were not the most sympathetic of characters. It is a great credit to conservatives that they looked past the personalities involved and seized on the important issue and thus gave a warning to the government about going too far.


30 posted on 05/31/2010 8:25:44 PM PDT by Our man in washington
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To: jedgarlives

From your screen-name, I presume you blindly approve anything the FBI does. This guy isn’t exactly the Efrum Zimballist, Jr. character.


31 posted on 05/31/2010 8:26:13 PM PDT by bwc2221
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To: bereanway

Potts was in charge of Ruby Ridge and also at Waco.

http://www.davekopel.com/waco/arts/rrprosec.htm

“Consider Larry Potts, the Washington FBI headquarters man in charge of Ruby Ridge.

The prosecutors investigated Larry Potts for approving the dramatic change in the “rules of engagement” for the FBI’s siege of the Weaver family’s remote Idaho cabin in August, 1992. According to the official FBI guidelines, deadly force is allowed only when necessary to protect someone against immediate danger. The rules of engagement are not based on the whims of FBI officials, or even on the acts of Congress. Instead, the limits on deadly force are implicit in the Constitution, and therefore decreed by the Supreme Court.

At Ruby Ridge, Idaho, the normal, constitutional rules of engagement were changed; the new rules were orders to kill any armed adult male seen on the Weavers’ property. The non-prosecution of Larry Potts is based on a disputed fact: it cannot be proven that Potts approved the order saying FBI agents “can and should” shoot. “


32 posted on 05/31/2010 8:26:25 PM PDT by BwanaNdege
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To: jedgarlives
If you had one single fact straight you might have a point.

But you don't. So you're just another a**hole with a misinformed opinion.

33 posted on 05/31/2010 8:27:06 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: NoLibZone

Just damn! I’ve spent a lot of money with all of those outfits over the years ... no mo!


34 posted on 05/31/2010 8:28:25 PM PDT by investigateworld (Abortion Stops A Beating Heart)
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To: jedgarlives

It goes wayyyyyyy back before that. Weaver held unpopular views. So why was he set up to begin with?


35 posted on 05/31/2010 8:31:01 PM PDT by investigateworld (Abortion Stops A Beating Heart)
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To: jedgarlives
Well the DOJ Ruby Ridge Task Force found that the second shot that Horiuchi took which killed Vicki Weaver did not meet the standard of “objective reasonableness” required in the use of deadly force. More thank likely the primary reason the Feds had to pay the survivors of the Weaver family over $3 mill for that disaster.

Yeah, no doubt the reason all the loons on the left think the right is wacky.
36 posted on 05/31/2010 8:31:13 PM PDT by bereanway (Sarah get your gun)
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To: jedgarlives
No, FedShill, "jedgar" is DEAD -- and Horiuchi deserves to be with him...
37 posted on 05/31/2010 8:31:52 PM PDT by TXnMA
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To: TokuMei

That does it for me.


38 posted on 05/31/2010 8:35:20 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, A Matter Of Fact, Not A Matter Of Opinion)
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To: BwanaNdege

Thanks, I didn’t realize that.

From what I can tell it sounds like Potts later on may have also had some involvement in Filegate although his role was never fully investigated. Sounds like another real seedy character.


39 posted on 05/31/2010 8:44:33 PM PDT by bereanway (Sarah get your gun)
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To: TXnMA
Perhaps jedgarlives watched his DVDs of the “Untouchables” one too many times.
40 posted on 05/31/2010 8:47:27 PM PDT by bwc2221
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To: jedgarlives
Let me make sure I have this straight:

You have it as straight as Janye Edgar

1. alleged threats the Secret Service investigated. no charges

2. Sammy Weaver may have been no Eagle Scout (but The Famous But Incompetent kills them too) but as far as he knew he shot at a trespasser who just killed his dog.

3, Shooting an armed male not actually threatening anyone is illegal - whatever the Rules of Engagement the FIB invents say.

41 posted on 05/31/2010 8:49:54 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (May 15: It's Jessica Watson Day!)
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To: jedgarlives

You may want to do a little more research on this before you rush to judgment.

The Feds in this case were wrong from the start. Weaver was set up then they went after him. He was totally justified to protect his family and property from these jackbooted thugs.


42 posted on 05/31/2010 8:50:55 PM PDT by Snardius
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To: jedgarlives
Jedgarlives,

Like the man said get your facts straight moron. One, Weaver was not a white supremist he was a separatist. He wanted to live with his own kind just like Italian Americans, Mexican Americans, Black Americans, etc. Two, he didn’t brainwash his son, his son killed a guy because this stranger crawling around his yard waring “camo” had just killed his dog. As for the arrest warrant, the arrest warrant had an incorrect summons date on it. That’s why Weaver didn’t show up in court. His wife was shot through a closed door holding a baby in her arms. Someone asked in here why were they trying to set Weaver up, they wanted Randy Weaver to rat two buddies out and he wouldn’t do it. Finally, if the government was so righteous, why did they pay Weaver a little over $5 million as a settlement?

43 posted on 05/31/2010 8:52:17 PM PDT by Mtn Pass
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To: TXnMA

J Edgar Hoover was a real pillar of morality and ethics wasn’t he. He was blackmailed by the mafia for his homosexual lifestyle. J Edgar, Larry Potts and Lon are real gems.


44 posted on 05/31/2010 8:55:25 PM PDT by Frantzie (Democrats = Party of I*lam)
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To: jedgarlives

Who was the secretary employed by that took these notes on the screen? Are these Randy’s notes? Idaho’s notes, or the government’s notes?


45 posted on 05/31/2010 8:59:11 PM PDT by Mtn Pass
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To: Frantzie
“J Edgar Hoover was a real pillar of morality and ethics wasn’t he. He was blackmailed by the mafia for his homosexual lifestyle. J Edgar, Larry Potts and Lon are real gems.”

I imagine he looked a lot like Aunt Bea in his dress.

46 posted on 05/31/2010 9:09:12 PM PDT by bwc2221
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To: bwc2221
I grew up with "the Untouchables", and "The FBI in Peace and War" -- then I investigated OKCBOMB -- and encountered the real FBI.

~~~~~~~~~

SAIC Danny Defenbaugh to the press: "We covered the crater to protect water-soluble evidence."

Morning of the bombing. That is red, muddy water filling the crater...

'Nuff said...

47 posted on 05/31/2010 9:23:07 PM PDT by TXnMA
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To: jedgarlives; Lurker

Are you stoned?

Your “facts” are way way wrong...and your spelling sucks.

Beside that, anyone who obviously admires a cross-dressing homosexual deviant enough to adopt his name as your screen-name might have some ‘issues’ to resolve before having any credibility here.


48 posted on 05/31/2010 9:23:34 PM PDT by panaxanax
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To: jedgarlives
Let me make sure I have this straight..." - jedgarlives

Maybe these words, taken directly from the Department of Justice report will better help in understanding why people here feel the way they do toward Horiuchi...:

"Our review found numerous problems with the conduct ofthe FBI at Ruby Ridge. Although we concluded that the decision to deploy the HRT to Ruby Ridge was appropriate and consistent with Department policy, we do not believe that the FBI's initial attempts at intelligence gathering at the scene were sufficiently thorough. We also found serious problems with the terms of the Rules of Engagement in force at Ruby Ridge. Certain portions of these Rules not only departed from the FBI's standard deadly force policy but also contravened the Constitution of the United States. In addition, we found these Rules to be imprecise and believe that they may have created anatmosphere that encouraged the use of deadly force thereby having the effect of contributing to an unintentional death.

With regard to the two shots fired on August 22, we concluded that the first shot met the standard of "objective reasonableness" the Constitution requires for the legal use of deadly force but that the second shot did not satisfy thatstandard. It is our conclusion that the sniper/observer who took the second shot intended to shoot Kevin Harris but accidentally killed Vicki Weaver whom he did not see behind the curtained door. We also found the internal FBI review of the shooting incident has not been sufficiently thorough and reached incorrect conclusions about the second shot.

Our examination of the command and control of the crisisby the FBI, found numerous shortcomings. These shortcoming sincluded initial inadequacies in utilizing negotiating personnel, communicating with FBI Headquarters, documenting decisions and securing the site.

During and after the crisis, the crime scenes were searched by many law enforcement officials under the direct supervision of the FBI. We found the FBI's handling of the crime scene searches to be inadequate including its failure to use basic crime scene techniques in collecting evidence. Furthermore, the general disorganization and inexperience of some of the participants coupled with inaccuracies in the searches adversely affected the prosecution and contributed to the negative impression of the government generated during the trial. We found no evidence that these deficiencies were intentional or that the FBI staged evidence for the prosecution's benefit."

This is just a portion of the document from the Department of Justice... A thorough review of the transcripts from the Senate investigation go a long way toward seeing the problems also.

Now... I'm not big on the White Separatist folks (for the record, and according to numerous government documentation gathered "after the fact", Weaver was a Separatist, not a Supremist) but people have a right to believe what they want to believe. That is the great thing about this country (their rights stop when they are infringing on mine.) Just because we don't agree with the man's ideology, doesn't lessen his rights as a citizen. I don't like what he believed at that time (he has changed, according to many) but he had a right to believe it. Regarding his alledged threat to President Reagan, this from the Department of Justice Office of Professional Responsibility Ruby Ridge Task Force Report:

"In 1984, Randy Weaver and neighbor Terry Kinnison had a dispute over a $3,000 land deal. (Kinnison subsequently lost the lawsuit and was ordered to pay Weaver an additional $2,100 in court costs and damages.) Kinnison wrote letters to the FBI, Secret Service, and county sheriff alleging Weaver had threatened to kill the Pope, the President, and the governor of Idaho. In January 1985, the FBI and the Secret Service started an investigation. In February, Randy and Vicki Weaver met with two FBI agents, two Secret Service agents, and the Boundary County sheriff and his chief investigator and were interviewed for hours. While the Secret Service was told that Weaver was a member of the Aryan Nations and that he had a large weapons cache at his residence, Weaver denied the allegations and no charges were filed."

So... Evidently, the feds didn't feel like there was anything to this story.

As far as his kid being brainwashed into shooting a Federal Agent... Well, it was Kevin Harris that fired the fatal shot on the agent, not the boy. The agent was killed after: 1) agent shot the dog, 2) young boy sees a man holding weapon, realizes the man just killed his dog and was leveling the weapon at him, so young boy fires in the direction of unknown man, an agent 3) Agent shoots and kills boy, and then 4) Kevin Harris fires the shot that kills the agent. Kevin Harris was charged with murder, that charge being dismissed because of the circumstances.

Now... Having said all of this... I'm not into Cop-bashing... (I grew up in a house full of law enforcement - dad and his friends) But, I am also not into people being assigned to the HRT that don't understand the fact that "collateral damage" is not acceptable in situations like the one that occurred at Ruby Ridge. Eveyone behind a trigger has to know and understand their limitations... I really don't care whether someone is a law enforcement officer or a civilian: YOU ARE LEGALLY, MORALLY, AND FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY ROUND YOU FIRE. Horiuchi either a) intentionally fired into a cabin without caring what he hit (so he is responsible for the death of an innocent person), or b) he attempted to make a shot for which he was not prepared or able to accurately complete (in which case he would again responsible for the death of an innocent person.)

I am not in favor of law enforcement agencies working paramilitary style operations... They almost always have a problem, and one bit of bad information means trouble. Law enforcement is meant to enforce the law, and keep the bad guys from hurting others. Military units are meant to destroy people and infrastructure in order to bring about a swift end to a conflict between nations or groups of nations - hopefully sooner than later one side makes a decision regarding "is it worth it?". When law enforcement takes on a military role, innocent people die - too much uncontroled firepower in a civilian environment is not a good thing. When military takes on a law enforcement role, innocent people die - usually the ones in military uniforms, because they are being forced to abide by some assinine set of Rules of Engagement brought on by a "law enforcment" role that they have been handed in the middle of a war zone.

Ruby Ridge was a disaster for both sides... Weaver lost his family. Agents' families are missing husbands/fathers. But this is what happens when federal agencies get too high-handed and forget that they are law enforcement, not military. (BATFE is, technically, a tax collection agency. But it was decided that all federal officers should carry a gun. Look what BATFE has grown into - they now have airpower stronger than many third world nations... SHEEESSHHH!)

To paraphrase Fred Thompson (love him or hate him, he said this one right): "We are here, and spending all this time and money on these hearings, because of an old boy that cut 2 inches too much off of a shotgun barrel, and it escalated to this."

Just my .02...

Respectfully, and with regards,
Raven6

49 posted on 05/31/2010 9:25:27 PM PDT by Raven6 (The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either.)
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To: TXnMA

Water source: damaged air conditioning chiller uphill from the crater...


50 posted on 05/31/2010 9:27:25 PM PDT by TXnMA
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