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Thomas Jefferson made slip in Declaration (not slip, a decision)
Associated Press ^ | Jul 2, 2010 4:16 PM (ET) | LAUREN SAUSSER

Posted on 07/02/2010 2:43:05 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW

WASHINGTON (AP) - Preservation scientists at the Library of Congress have discovered that Thomas Jefferson, even in the act of declaring independence from England, had trouble breaking free from monarchial rule.

In an early draft of the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson wrote the word "subjects," when he referred to the American public. He then erased that word and replaced it with "citizens," a term he used frequently throughout the final draft.

(Excerpt) Read more at apnews.myway.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Front Page News
KEYWORDS: declaration; godsgravesglyphs; jefferson; thomasjefferson
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I found the article interesting but was angry at the title. This wasn't a slip. It was a decision. And I doubt Jefferson had ANY trouble breaking free from a monarchy.
1 posted on 07/02/2010 2:43:10 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW
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To: DJ MacWoW

Thanks for pointing that out about it being a choice and not a slip.

The difference between a subject owing allegience to a sovereign, and citizens who are the sovereigns, is enormous. Too bad the majority of Americans are ignorant of that fact.

It was truly a break with the feudalism of Europe.


2 posted on 07/02/2010 2:54:09 PM PDT by SatinDoll (NO Foreign Nationals as our President!!)
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To: DJ MacWoW
It has been within the last two years that I posted an article about Jefferson only to have him attacked by several FReepers on a variety of grounds, most of which were along the lines of “he really wasn't all that great”.

Well, he was that great. I hope your thread is given the respect that is Jefferson's due.

3 posted on 07/02/2010 2:54:23 PM PDT by Artemis Webb (DeMint 2012)
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To: DJ MacWoW

“Fenalla France, a research chemist at the Library, said her lab made the discovery last year by using hyperspectral imaging, using a high resolution digital camera that compiles a series of images to highlight layers of a document. Some of those invisible layers - like erased text and even fingerprints - pop into view on a computer screen.”

Pretty soon they will find another magic layer that shows he REALLY wanted a King for life...


4 posted on 07/02/2010 2:55:59 PM PDT by jessduntno (I'm not a racist, you're just saying that because I'm white.)
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To: SatinDoll
The difference between a subject owing allegience to a sovereign, and citizens who are the sovereigns, is enormous.

Can you imagine the fear and excitement? Fear of making a mistake and the excitement of creating something unique! I try to imagine the range of emotions and the burden it must have been. A fledgling nation, looking to these men for guidance. And a perfect government. It makes ones heart quail!

5 posted on 07/02/2010 3:02:50 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: Artemis Webb

All of the Founders were great and intelligent men and are to be respected. It took great courage to do what they did.


6 posted on 07/02/2010 3:04:17 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: DJ MacWoW
In an early draft of the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson wrote the word "subjects," when he referred to the American public. He then erased that word and replaced it with "citizens," a term he used frequently throughout the final draft.

At least Jefferson made the right decision. Obama has all this history to go on and he's busily trying to make us all into subjects again.
7 posted on 07/02/2010 3:07:38 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: aruanan

Jefferson and Obama are on two different ends of the spectrum aren’t they. And this find highlights that. *shaking head*


8 posted on 07/02/2010 3:11:34 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: DJ MacWoW
Yep... polar opposites. Jefferson swore "... upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Obama swears open hostility and as many forms of tyranny as he can contrive.

9 posted on 07/02/2010 3:38:21 PM PDT by Charles Martel ("Endeavor to persevere...")
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To: DJ MacWoW

Well, Jefferson was that great! As some have clearly stated.

The problem here is revisionists attempting to deconstruct the record, yes during a draft a word was used then changed to the appropriate meaning. The only ones bitching about the fact that some scientifically advanced research shows a word was replaced, it’s not as if he had a plenty of paper and a word processor.

Governor of Virginia
U.S. minister to France
Secretary of state under George Washington,
Vice-president to John Adams
3rd President of the United States from 1801 to 1809
Commissioned Lewis and Clark Expedition
Facilitated Louisiana Purchase

Now, what can we say about the many Leftists, famous Marxists, and Neo-Marxist Kenyan Clown and fraudster?


10 posted on 07/02/2010 3:41:19 PM PDT by ntmxx (I am not so sure about this misdirection!)
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To: ntmxx
The problem here is revisionists attempting to deconstruct the record,

Not necessarily. It could just be the leftist media bias.

Have you ever read this?

'A Wall of Separation' - FBI Helps Restore Jefferson's Obliterated Draft - Library of Congress

It certainly clears up a few misconceptions.

11 posted on 07/02/2010 3:50:00 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: DJ MacWoW

Nice article, however;

Just as the concept, separation of church and state is not in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, yet is drawn upon as the outside authority for the State. Further, there appears to be a movement which is attempting to remove the underlying concept of inalienable as an individual’s right based on what the Federal Government permits; instead of being constrained or restricted.

If the original intent is “subject” versus “citizens,” well then an individual’s rights are subject to the State’s desires…this is what separates the French Constitution from the U.S. Constitution.


12 posted on 07/02/2010 4:16:39 PM PDT by ntmxx (I am not so sure about this misdirection!)
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To: DJ MacWoW
He then erased that word and replaced it with "citizens," a term he used frequently throughout the final draft.

Article by a peabrain.

The word "citizen" (or citizens) isn't used frequently throughout the final draft of the Declaration. It's used ONCE.

He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas to bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of their friends and brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands.
Up until the time Mr. Jefferson wrote this, the people he was speaking of considered them "subjects." But I guess the Sally Hemings BS sort of died out and those who wish to demean one of the giants among the Framers need to put forward other nonsense.

ML/NJ

13 posted on 07/02/2010 4:25:07 PM PDT by ml/nj
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To: ntmxx

The article clears up that Jefferson was protecting the church from the state, or federal government, and not vice versa. That was my interest in it. I also was interested in the fact that as Governor, he declared Days of Prayer and Fasting but declined to do it as President since he believed that the Federal government had no say in religion.


14 posted on 07/02/2010 4:28:04 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: ml/nj
Article by a peabrain.

It's the Associated Press. Aren't peabrain and AP synonyms?

15 posted on 07/02/2010 4:30:37 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: DJ MacWoW

Wow, typical lib spin. Let’s trash Jefferson.


16 posted on 07/02/2010 4:32:47 PM PDT by Jean S
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To: Jean S

Actually the left is just trying to finish him off. They’ve already accused him of all kinds of trash starting with misrepresenting the Danbury Letter.


17 posted on 07/02/2010 4:35:29 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: DJ MacWoW
I don't want to sound paranoid but is this a backdoor attempt to discredit the Constitution?

The authors were flawed ergo the document is flawed?

18 posted on 07/02/2010 4:39:46 PM PDT by Jean S
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To: DJ MacWoW

Yes, I agree, and he did a good job of it.

However, what we have here currently is, or I believe is revisionists attempting to deconstruct the record for people like Kagan and Obama. Don’t forget everyone believes, or the precept is being pushed currently, Obama is one of the ultimate authorities on the constitution. And a word subsitution/confusion is something the left or people like Jeremiah Wright, Louis Farrakhan, George Soros, Barney Frank, John kerry, Nancy Pelosi and Kennedy Clan would enjoy.


19 posted on 07/02/2010 4:43:10 PM PDT by ntmxx (I am not so sure about this misdirection!)
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To: Jean S

It’s possible. Make the authors of liberty sound weak and indecisive and that will reflect of the documents they wrote.


20 posted on 07/02/2010 4:43:37 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: Pharmboy; rabscuttle385; mainepatsfan

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Thanks DJ MacWoW.

Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

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21 posted on 07/02/2010 4:45:39 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: ntmxx; Jean S

I agree. So does Jean. I only find it interesting that he searched for just the right word. I see him as being careful. The left will find Jefferson indecisive and unsure.


22 posted on 07/02/2010 4:47:07 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: SunkenCiv

I’m sorry. I didn’t realize that GGG would want a ping.


23 posted on 07/02/2010 4:48:46 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: DJ MacWoW; Jean S; ntmxx

Your combined comments remind of something Hillary Clinton said in her speech after winning the Pennsylvania Dem primary race for president. It got zero play in the media that i remember, but it was an enlightening moment for me in that it gave some insight into how these commie-progressives think.

I don’t remember the exact context(and i admit context is always important... I’ll try to find the video of the speech if I have time later).. but she when mentioning the founding of the country and the vision of the Founding Fathers she said something like, ‘...and while their vision didn’t include all of us...’ etc etc.. In other words she was stating that she believed the Founders vision was inherently flawed. And gives the obvious implication that the country they envisioned and built needed to be ‘changed’.

I always wonder when witnessing the complete lack of common sense and hatred for America the Left expresses, what exactly it is they base there views on. And that moment kind of gave me an idea of where their progressive un-American opinions originate.

It really is stunning to witness so many people prescribe to that kind of thinking despite living in the greatest country ever conceived. As the Great One, Mark Levin, would say, ‘Thats right I said it! The greatest country ever conceived!’

Anyhow I hope you all have a great night. Hopefully together we’ll tame this beast in the next 2-3 election cycles.


24 posted on 07/02/2010 5:26:39 PM PDT by fiftymegaton (God Bless and Protect America)
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To: fiftymegaton
Hopefully together we’ll tame this beast in the next 2-3 election cycles.

I'm beginning to question if that will happen. 2 more years of Bam may end our Nation. And it's happening quickly.

25 posted on 07/02/2010 5:30:54 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: Artemis Webb

I think some conservatives see some of Jefferson’s personal failings and project backwards in an attempt to make him the first proto-limousine liberal. In fact, I think it was Clemenza who said that.

I think it’s kind of an absurd accusation. For one, Jefferson was actually a man of accomplishment and talents, most limousine liberals are good at pretending they are good and brilliant without actually being so.

Jefferson had too much affection for France and the Revolution but his mistake was projecting his experience in America with what was going on in France. I think he eventually was cured of this obsession with France and it must be pointed out that he was against the abhorrent Alien and Sedition Acts.


26 posted on 07/02/2010 5:31:39 PM PDT by Skywalk (Transdimensional Jihad!)
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To: DJ MacWoW

Believe me, I question whether it will happen too. But if We The People don’t try our damnedest NOW to do what needs to be done, then we aren’t deserving of the potential blessings this great country can afford us all.

Keep the faith, and don’t be discouraged by the obviously inferior ideology of the opposition. If we stay together we shall prevail. But as I said and you implied, it will take much more than just the 2010 elections to take back our country.


27 posted on 07/02/2010 5:44:06 PM PDT by fiftymegaton (God Bless and Protect America)
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To: fiftymegaton
But if We The People don’t try our damnedest NOW

We've been trying. Everyone I know is scared spitless and intends to vote. But a lot can happen between now and November. It might as well be Marx or Lenin in the WH.

28 posted on 07/02/2010 6:15:32 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: DJ MacWoW

I’m sure that the AP’s agenda in reporting this story is to get American citizens used to being subjects again, this time of Emperor Bozo the Usurper and his courtiers in the sycophantic news media.


29 posted on 07/02/2010 7:30:43 PM PDT by Colonel Blimp
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To: ntmxx

“Neo-Marxist Kenyan Clown and fraudster”

He has great oratorical skills?/s


30 posted on 07/02/2010 7:46:21 PM PDT by Frank_2001
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To: DJ MacWoW; SatinDoll
The difference between a subject owing allegience to a sovereign, and citizens who are the sovereigns, is enormous>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And we are pointing that out to Barry Soetoro now, politely, but it seems we need to be slightly more strident, especially in Arizona.

31 posted on 07/02/2010 7:55:16 PM PDT by Candor7 (Obama .......yes.......is fascist... ...He meets every diagnostic of history)
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To: Frank_2001

“He has great oratorical skills?/s”

So does the Joker. /ss (just hav’n too much fun here)

Although, his kissing cousins such as Trotsky, Lenin, Lassalle, Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Saddam, and the lesser types Che Guevara, Louis Farrakhan, Jeremiah Wright, Jesse Jackson...and the list goes on.


32 posted on 07/02/2010 8:46:05 PM PDT by ntmxx (I am not so sure about this misdirection!)
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To: DJ MacWoW
I was there. He originally scribed “subverts”. Hamilton blew a gasket so he changed it to “citizens”.
33 posted on 07/02/2010 8:51:36 PM PDT by 3boysdad (Intellectualism is the new stupid!)
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To: fiftymegaton

Thank you, and nicely said.

“...complete lack of common sense and hatred for America the Left expresses...”

Keep in mind that this has more to do with an agenda and a get-even-with’m mentality while using the tools of hatred to gain power than anything else. Take Hillary Clinton or any of the leftists or Neo-Marxists, why do they side with such groups as Palestinians, Hamas or self proclaimed enemies of America, while they live here and not there.


34 posted on 07/02/2010 8:54:51 PM PDT by ntmxx (I am not so sure about this misdirection!)
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: BobP

Washington Post is on the excerpt/link only list.


36 posted on 07/02/2010 11:35:14 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: DJ MacWoW

The article might have said more accurately that Jefferson had trouble breaking free from the language or terminology of monarchial rule. Jefferson and all the Founders were raised as British subjects. Frenchmen of the time were subjects. The concept of citizens as a free, self-governing people was never before experienced.


37 posted on 07/02/2010 11:42:00 PM PDT by EDINVA
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To: Jean S; DJ MacWoW

This article is about the Declaration of Independence (1776), not the Constitution (1789).


38 posted on 07/03/2010 12:35:24 AM PDT by cammie
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To: ntmxx
Yea ntmxx, complete media bias and hatred, Big Time!

Look at the crap in this Wash Compost's article clipping...

Seldom can we re-create a moment in history in such a dramatic and living way... It's quite amazing how he morphed 'subjects' into 'citizens,' " she said. "We did the reverse morphing back to 'subjects.' "... Finding Jefferson's erased word is the library's greatest accomplishment using its new technology...

These damn liberasls would love to morph us straight into the ol' USSR, in the blink of an eye...

AND on the 4th of July no less ! ! !

Just my two cents...

To our Prez I say...


A short YouTube Video -- "What are you... a doomsday machine..."



39 posted on 07/03/2010 12:39:41 AM PDT by BobP (The piss-stream media - Never to be watched again in my house)
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To: Charles Martel
Yep... polar opposites. Jefferson swore "... upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

I see now why Jefferson wrote "and the pursuit of happiness."

It was because there is little or no happiness under tyranny. There is no happiness when there is no individual choice and participation in governing.

40 posted on 07/03/2010 1:08:32 AM PDT by TheThinker (Communists: taking over the world one kooky doomsday scenerio at a time.)
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To: cammie; Jean S
This article is about the Declaration of Independence (1776), not the Constitution (1789).

They have nothing in common? Discredit the Founders and you discredit both documents. Prove one is flawed and you have a case for the other being flawed.

41 posted on 07/03/2010 5:17:31 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: EDINVA
The article might have said more accurately that Jefferson had trouble breaking free from the language or terminology of monarchial rule.

That would have been more correct. It is fascinating to think that as he wrote the Declaration, his ideas were forming and his view was changing. That one changed word says so much about how our country started on it's path to freedom.

42 posted on 07/03/2010 5:36:52 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: DJ MacWoW; SatinDoll; Artemis Webb; jessduntno; Charles Martel; aruanan; ntmxx; fiftymegaton; ...

Well, you know about those "subjects" in small towns.
They get "bitter" and cling to guns and religion.
Next thing you know, they think they have God-given rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

43 posted on 07/03/2010 6:05:10 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: DJ MacWoW
Agreed. The writer needs some schooling.

It's not like Jefferson was working from any precedent in human history. Sheesh.

44 posted on 07/03/2010 6:49:47 AM PDT by GVnana
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To: GVnana

I think the writer had an agenda.


45 posted on 07/03/2010 6:59:25 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: DJ MacWoW
The article clears up that Jefferson was protecting the church from the state, or federal government, and not vice versa

He was his usual hypocritical self there too. He was using the Danbury Baptists and clergy (the Rev David Allen for one) to break the Congregationalist power structure in New England. He was hostile to the dominate New England faith. They were Federalists and he helped destroyed them.

46 posted on 07/03/2010 7:06:02 AM PDT by Brugmansian
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To: DJ MacWoW
It was a decision.

Exactly. Have the article's authors never edited/revised their writing, changing word choice to reflect a more accurate description? Never mind that the American Revolution was, uh, revolutionary. Today's journalists are a sad commentary on our society.

47 posted on 07/03/2010 7:09:39 AM PDT by FourPeas (God Save America)
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To: FourPeas
Today's journalists are a sad commentary on our society.

They are indicative of bias and lack of knowledge. Itty bitty tiny brains. :-)

48 posted on 07/03/2010 7:18:41 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: Brugmansian

Hate the Founders do ya? They won you the right to insult them.


49 posted on 07/03/2010 7:19:56 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: DJ MacWoW

The premise of the headline is idiotic.

These men were forming a more perfect union and they were going to struggle over terms and their definitions, as well, ensuring the wording was exact enough to apply to all men, so as to define what a freeman is.

Mistake? Hell I do it all day long and make judgment calls about the wording in letters and proposals.

Oh well, armchair quarterbacks, looking back some 200 years must really possess superior intelligence of divination.

Hey I used a big word!


50 posted on 07/03/2010 7:51:27 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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