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Declaration of Causes of Seceding States
American Civil War Website ^ | 1860-61 | State Legislatures

Posted on 10/15/2010 11:37:41 AM PDT by DWar

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To: dangus

Slavery was an important issue in 1860 but it has been illegal in America for decades.

Today the important principle is the Constitutional Right of states to organize their own societies locally and to not be forced into the mold of some socialist elitist or bureaucrat living thousands of miles away.

Arizonans are being overwhelmed by an invasion of thousands of illegal aliens with many serious consequences; increasing crime, the cost of federally required social services and a lower quality of life. When Arizona enacts laws to protect themselves the socialist elitists in Washington join with FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS to sue Arizona State in federal court.

I think the number of states suing the federal government over violations of the tenth amendment is at 14 now. England in the 1770s tried to put a lid on the growing antipathy of the people towards governance from afar. How’d that work out for them?


21 posted on 10/15/2010 1:53:26 PM PDT by DWar (The perfect is the enemy of the excellent!!)
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To: dangus

Slavery was an important issue in 1860 but it has been illegal in America for decades.

Today the important principle is the Constitutional Right of states to organize their own societies locally and to not be forced into the mold of some socialist elitist or bureaucrat living thousands of miles away.

Arizonans are being overwhelmed by an invasion of thousands of illegal aliens with many serious consequences; increasing crime, the cost of federally required social services and a lower quality of life. When Arizona enacts laws to protect themselves the socialist elitists in Washington join with FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS to sue Arizona State in federal court.

I think the number of states suing the federal government over violations of the tenth amendment is at 14 now. England in the 1770s tried to put a lid on the growing antipathy of the people towards governance from afar. How’d that work out for them?


22 posted on 10/15/2010 1:53:31 PM PDT by DWar (The perfect is the enemy of the excellent!!)
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To: MrB

‘Simply, to not be subject to the dictates of the central authority made up of elitist busybodies.’

This is how many TODAY want to revise it. So romantic, so...utopian.

But the fact is the CSA codified slavery. Everyone involved in its authorship admitted as much, repeatedly and proudly.

This is nothing but a rehash of Jubal Early’s ‘Lost Cause’ mytholoy.


23 posted on 10/17/2010 8:13:43 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: DWar

‘You asked, “States Rights to do ‘what’ exactly? The right for the people of each state to decide for themselves how their own local society should be ordered. Not for some bureaucrat thousands of miles away to dictate and regulate it.’

First, I agree with everything you said in the 1st paragraph of your post.

That said, I wasn’t actualy ‘asking’ States Rights to do what exactly. It was rhetorical. The CSA constitution ANSWERED that question in 1860.

It was about economics. Everything beyond that was a rationalization, including the ‘Lost Cause’ myth promoted by Jubal Early, and many others that were bitter about losing the Civil War, and sought scapegoats. Longstreet was a particular target of Early, he needed one to hang the blame on and make the ‘Lost Cause’ myth ‘fit’.


24 posted on 10/17/2010 8:18:23 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Badeye
This is how many TODAY want to revise it. So romantic, so...utopian.

Can we please separate the 2 ideas? 1- Slavery 2- Federalism

I agree the CSA codified slavery. All agree that was a grievious wrong.

I do NOT want to rewrite history to say the Civil War was only about the principle of States Rights. It was about the South's desire to maintain slavery as an important part of their economic capacity.

But the Civil War threw the baby out with the bathwater and began the nation down a slippery slope away from a constitutional federal republic and towards a centralized bureaucratic dictatorship.

Evil ideas always work to subvert good principles. Slavery successfully subverted federalism.

25 posted on 10/17/2010 9:19:40 AM PDT by DWar (The perfect is the enemy of the excellent!!)
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To: Badeye
This is nothing but a rehash of Jubal Early’s ‘Lost Cause’ mytholoy.

This is not a 'Lost Cause' argument. This is neither romantic nor utopian.

This is about how an evil idea, slavery, was able to subvert an excellent principle of governance, federalism.

AND how the opponents of federalism and their unwitting accomplices use the conflation of these separate ideas and the univeral abhorance of the one to the detriment of the other.

(See post 25)

26 posted on 10/17/2010 9:49:50 AM PDT by DWar (The perfect is the enemy of the excellent!!)
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To: MrB

Sorry for the late reply:

Old Testament slaves were also released every seven years.


27 posted on 10/17/2010 10:52:31 AM PDT by conservative_crusader (The voice of truth, tells me a different story. The voice of truth says do not be afraid.)
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To: DWar

Thats like seperating genocide from Nazi’s.


28 posted on 10/18/2010 6:24:53 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: DWar

‘This is nothing but a rehash of Jubal Early’s ‘Lost Cause’ mytholoy.
This is not a ‘Lost Cause’ argument. This is neither romantic nor utopian. ‘

Sure it is.


29 posted on 10/18/2010 6:26:09 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Badeye
Thats like seperating genocide from Nazi’s.

Exactly! The Nazis and genocide are separable. Conflation of these ideas is illogical.

Genocide was not invented by the Nazis. It has been committed by many non-Nazis through all of history. In addition, not everything done by the Nazi regime was evil. The Nazis promoted scientific and technological advancement separate and apart from genocide and from which the world benefits today.

Christianity is not defined by the evils of history's political leaders, from Augustine to Hitler, who used it to expand and secure their political control.

Certainly the ideas of slavery and federalism can be discussed independently.

In the same way federalism is good and slavery evil regardless of the South's efforts in 1860 to use it to expand and secure their economic interests.

Your belief that they cannot be separate issues begs two questions: 1- can slavery exist absent federalism? 2- Can federalism exist absent slavery?

The answer to both questions is yes. It is the refusal to deal with them separately and instead to conflate them that demonizes federalism. This is a favorite tactic of liberals. If conservatives fail to see and understand this they allow socialists a powerful weapon.

30 posted on 10/18/2010 3:45:33 PM PDT by DWar (The perfect is the enemy of the excellent!!)
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To: DWar
Oops!

I meant Constantine to Hitler. Sorry St Augustine!

31 posted on 10/18/2010 3:47:51 PM PDT by DWar (The perfect is the enemy of the excellent!!)
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To: DWar
But "State's Rights" as understood by the slave states of the 1860s wasn't federalism.

In fact it was something different from the Constitution properly understood.

It was the idea that states were free of checks on their power similar to those which were imposed on the federal government.

"States rights" without guarantees of basic individual liberties certainly are compatible with slavery.

32 posted on 10/18/2010 3:59:13 PM PDT by x
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To: Notary Sojac
That’s why you can go to New York today and see the remains of the “Irish markets” where Irish families were kept chained until they could be sold and shipped off to Ohio and Minnesota.

Where are they at?

33 posted on 10/18/2010 4:35:31 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Hey mo-joe! Here's another one for your collection.)
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To: Badeye
Had the South left the Union, and in its own Constitution outlawed slavery...

If they had outlawed slavery then what would they have seceded over?

34 posted on 10/18/2010 4:37:09 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Hey mo-joe! Here's another one for your collection.)
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To: MrB
Simply, to not be subject to the dictates of the central authority made up of elitist busybodies.

But the South was that central authority made up of elitist busybodies. They had exercised a disproportionate level of influence over the government for the entire history of the country up to that point.

35 posted on 10/18/2010 4:39:37 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Hey mo-joe! Here's another one for your collection.)
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To: DWar

Slavery was not really an important issue. The South was more concerned with their fear that the northern states would amend the constitution to allow the people to elect U.S. Senators. And, sure enough, the South was right and we later got the 17th Amendment.


36 posted on 10/18/2010 4:41:57 PM PDT by Walts Ice Pick
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To: Badeye

The fault lies with the founding fathers for not outlawing slavery from the very beginning of the country.


37 posted on 10/18/2010 4:44:50 PM PDT by Rebelbase (Palin/Christie 2012)
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To: Rebelbase
The fault lies with the founding fathers for not outlawing slavery from the very beginning of the country.

Before you make such a blanket statement, please read Federalist #54 and the explanatory essay that follows it.

38 posted on 10/18/2010 4:51:44 PM PDT by Publius (The government only knows how to turn gold into lead.)
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To: Walts Ice Pick
Go to the link and read the "Declaration of Causes of Seceding States".

These documents disagree with your hypothesis.

39 posted on 10/18/2010 5:21:41 PM PDT by DWar (The perfect is the enemy of the excellent!!)
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To: DWar

I have read them. Go read the one from Mississippi.


40 posted on 10/18/2010 5:31:18 PM PDT by Walts Ice Pick
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