Skip to comments.GOOD LORD, GERALDO IS DOING A TRUTHER SHOW!! (Vanity)
Posted on 11/13/2010 7:25:07 PM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
On tonight's Geraldo Rivera show, he had on a couple of people purporting that 9/11 was an inside job because 'Fire Can't Melt Steel'. At least one was from 9/11 families (I do not know if it was one of the handful of anti-war 9/11 famil;ies or not).
Has Roger Ailes gone crazy!
Here's a site I hadn't seen before that seems to have plenty of pics/photos/theories.
There is apparently a case to be made for poor joint design of the core columns (butt welds, all on the same horizontal plane - right where fractures of the columns occurred).
Fox, Please Fire Gerhaldo! I promise I will watch much more each week and will again start putting channels at public places on Fox News Like I did in the early days.
He should really give the Flat Earth Society equal time ... fair is fair.
Arlington Park, Illinois, 1985.
Did he really say that? Dear Lord.
The Air Force literally has weapons described as “cement bombs”, not explosive blocks of concrete they drop to collapse a house.
Building 7 was struck by parts off the towers (a force of perhaps 5,000 cement bombs). Would there be serious structural damage? Obviuosly.
Ask Jesse Ventura what would happen to his fine house if someone dropped a pallet of cement blocks on his house from 500 feet.
That makes a lot of sense, and would explain the way it looked like pancakes dropping internally....thanks.
Oh darn, I missed it.. it looks like the troofer learned that not only does fire melt steel, but it zots trolls.
Troofers are maroons.
“I will watch much more each week and will again start putting channels at public places on Fox News Like I did in the early days.”
And your theory is what, exactly? The ‘’truth’’ is heat(and gravity) bought down the Trade Center. Not explosives.
Poor joint design including poor weld design and poor weld materials helped the collapse proceed apace.
When people hear Geraldo speak it makes them feel like they are mental giants .
Truther BocoLoco ZOT!
To be added or removed from the VK list, FReepmail Darkwing104.
Yeah I saw that last night and had to go back to make sure that is what he was doing. What a loon. He is the main reason I do not watch Fox on the weekends.
This is surprising, coming from the man who spent weeks hyping the opening of “Al Capone’s vault,” only to find it empty? He’s never had any credibility. What a doofus.
9/11 was an inside job because 'Fire Can't Melt Steel'.
That is the STOO-PID-IST™ comment anyone can make.
How do these MORONS think steel is made in the first place?
And not to get technical -- but I will -- if 'fire can't melt steel' they WHY do these asshats think that FIRE PROOFING is applied to steel when a building is being constructed? It surely is not for aesthetic reasons as fire proofing is butt ugly material. AND, when it's the spray on type, it's application is uneven, the minimum thickness being 1½"
Ah, the smell of ozone! IATZ
Those floor connectons were welded ONLY? (No bolts or rivets?) Your observation makes excellent sense to me...
My instantaneous reaction to the initiation of the collapse (I saw it live) was that there were internal demo charges. That lasted only a few milliseconds -- long enough for three or so floors to pancake.
Then I recognized that it was the air between floors being compressed and "squeezed out" by the "piston effect" of the falling upper floors -- and escaping laterally in a big puff of air that only looked like a low VOD explosion. That first, erroneous impression was very fleeting -- then I started watching the four corner verticals slowly spread apart as they guided floor after floor straight down and through that same pancake compression sequence.
At some point, the weight and inertia of the falling "floor stack" overcame the strength of those same floor bracket attachments even on lower, undamaged floors, and the "chain reaction" continued all the way down.
No magic. No sabotage. No explosives. Just heat-weakened steel, gravity, physics -- and the gas laws -- at work...
I was just completing a multi-year study of the collapse of the Murrah Building (that was highly critical of the government) when I saw the WTC collapse(s).
No mystery or subterfuge there in NYC; just the laws of physics at work,,,
And I do believe that sort of lightning will melt steel. ;-)
Is BocoLoco a Ron Paultard, I wonder?
Since August 24, 2010. I never saw the name before today. Loco in his name could be a clue though.
How do you know this? Are you an engineer? High intense heat destroyed The Trade Center. No one takes into consideration of the condition of the fire proofing material that was coating the steel. Most of it was gone in the years since construction was complete and I can tell you from experience, as the Trade Center was being built, the fire-proofing was being applied in the open. This is a matter largely over-looked in all the conspiracies and other bs. The design of the Trade Center consisted of supporting load-baring columns forming the outside perimeter of the building(200 yards by 200 yrds.) and re-enforced concrete core/elevator shaft. The floors were carried on trusses. Several large corregated steel’’ pans’’ however many per floor with re-bar filled in with concrete and viola, you have a floor. The tenant later modifies and designs their space as they want . Replicate that 110 time per building and that was The Trade Center.
That is a very disturbing image...
Gravity destroyed the WTC towers. ( I actually used to be a metallurgist doing failure analysis way back in the day, fwiw.)
It's every bit as disturbing as seeing Whoraldo on TV.
Thankfully, I have only had a TV about 2 years in my adult life, and have never seen Whoraldo on it. The last time I had a TV was when Clintoon was being imeached.
That’s about 40 yrs of being TV-free!
Well, maybe he can do a birther show while he is at it. Nah. He’d never do that.
My neighbor told us yesterday that he was flying his small plane several years ago, and there was a thunderstorm about 25 miles away. He watched the lightening hit the ground and samll bolts shot out and went everywhere.
Absolutely. I believe a couple of those people on Jesse Ventura’s Conspiracy Theory, like that pilot aren’t rational, or totaly truthful.
I do think the FBI got back the black boxes from Airplanes, however in that hot an atmosphere, it is possible they were too damaged, and claiming they had them but no info would look like a conspiracy....so that one I can’t explain, why the 9/11 commission would lie about that.
However 9/11 commission did lie about Sadaam Hussein’s Republican Guard meeting with Al Queda members, there was at least one meet that was proven. Another lie is that NO WMDs were found, because we had several threads about the yellow cake found in Iraq, that Bush soldiers sat on, until it could be removed and shipped to Canada, and sold to a Canadian Company. It was type used to build nuclear weapons.
There was an article on Canada Free Press, and AP revealing that info in 2008. No media actually reported on it, because they were too busy saying none were ever found, and even Bush has kept quiet about it. It was discovered close to Iran border.
Link to article:
NOW FOR SATELLITE PICS, there was a satellite pic before we attacked Iraq showing truck convoys entering Syria from Iraq, because we gave Sadaam a 6 mo notice we were coming. I saw those satellite pics on the news, and I am appalled that they were only played one or two times. Any moveable WMD or chemical warfare barrels were transported to Syria, it was clear what was taking place. Those weren’t mattresses, or towels being escorted to Syria.
NATO has rules of war engagement countries have agreed to after WWII, and we need to throw them in the trash, it’s damaging our troops, and our freedom. No enemy should get a 6 month warning that we are coming, how stupid! Bush had no choice, and American’s do not realize how we are gagged and bound by treaties, and our enemies. We still beat the jackar$$es, with one hand tied behind our back! And they say there is NO GOD...HA!
Yes gravity bought down The Trade Center. High intense heat began the process. Not explosives as some suggest.
LOL, you're right.
This account has been banned or suspended.
Poor Widdle Twoll
Him Got Banned
BocoLoco! You NitWit!
You can't even spell you name correctly!
It's spelled BocaLoco!
(Crazy Mouth! And it fits you well)
I was starting to regret posting the thread when he showed up, but I guess it was useful in the great, never-ending Troll Hunt. Thanks.
Fire is the only thing I can think of that melts steel!
What kind of drugs are you on?
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
>> That you, Rosie?
Thought that was Joey Buttafuco...
Well, he lived up to the last four letters of his username...
Problem is the Towers DID NOT FALL IN 9 SECONDS! GOT IT?
At the risk of being REDUNDANT... I will give you access to the same information I provided “BocoLoco” ... for YOUR education in facts to begin:
DEBUNKING 9-11 MYTHS:
Stop yelling. So the towers fell 20 to 30 percent slower than a rock in a vacuum. That would be expected. There are air resistance, metal shear, cement crush, and other things that held it up in the first place. What are you trying to prove?
“There is apparently a case to be made for poor joint design of the core columns (butt welds, all on the same horizontal plane - right where fractures of the columns occurred).”
Those are perimeter columns, not core columns. The only locations where bolted joints were located in the same plane occurred at three different levels, called “mechanical floors.” However, at these locations the joints were also welded.
WTC1 (North Tower) Impact zone: Floors 94-97
Perimeter columns destroyed: 31-36 of 60 (240 total for all four sides)
WTC2 (South Tower) Impact zone: Floors 78-84
Perimeter columns destroyed 23 of 60 (240 columns total),
including a corner.
“The mechanical floors are 7-9, 41-43, 75-77, and 108-110, which are all beam framed floors. In each group of three floors, the upper and lower floors are type 12 and the middle floor is type 13 (mechanical mezzanine). The mechanical mezzanines were 50% open (no floor) outside the core so the floor area is 15,448.5 sq ft.”
So, for both WTC1 (the North Tower) and WTC2 (The South Tower) the impact zones did not include a mechanical floor. Thus at no point within the impact zone was bolting within a single plane involved.
The perimeter columns were modular assemblies grouped together in sets of three. The bolting of these units was not in the same plane but staggered. Since the perimeter steel columns were not welded, but bolted, the bolt connections would act like plastic hinges until tension stresses created by the sagging floor membranes (cantinary action) caused sheer failure.
Interesting to note that for WTC2 (South Tower) the second of the twin towers to be struck, but the first to first collapse, the 81st Floor was the first floor to fail and initiate the collapse. That floor housed 12 elevator hoists (weighing 24 tons each) that cover 1/2 the floor space.
For the idiots who choose to believe that demolition charges were involved, here is a good rebuttal to your insanity:
A fair attempt to calculate the energy involved is located here:
Although the 500,000 ton weight of each building has since been demonstrated to be incorrect:
Analysis of the Mass and Potential Energy of World Trade Center Tower 1
Gregory H. Urich
B.S. Electrical and Computer Engineering
The mass and potential energy of one of the Twin Towers is calculated based on available data. The mass for each floor is established based on floor types, documented design loads, and estimated in-service live loads. The calculated mass of 288,100 metric tons (317,500 short tons) is found to correspond with two other comparable structures in terms of mass per unit floor area, NISTs SAP2000 model, and the reported amount of recovered debris. The calculated mass refutes the popular notion that the building weighed 500,000 tons.
Each tower contained an inner core of rectangular shape, and composed of 47 steel box-beam columns that supported 60 percent of the buildings gravity load. The core also provided an enclosure for the elevators, emergency stairwells, and the various support systems that served each tower. These systems included: utility, communications, HVAC, and the automatic and manual fire-suppression supply manifolds. The clustering of all these essential systems within the core proved to be a fatal design flaw.
Core box-columns were not continuously symmetrical; but rather, their cross-sections varied with height. Lower columns, measuring 14 inches wide by 36 inches deep, transitioned into heavy rolled wide-flange stock that became progressively lighter with height. A continuous steel channel, welded to the main columns, encircled the perimeter of the inner core at each floor level. Flanged seats, welded to the perimeter channel beam, served as bearing points for the upper chord of each floor truss.
The core area of each tower encompassed 99 service elevators, several freight elevators, and three independent emergency stairwells. Each stairwell served as the location for the automatic and manual fire suppression supply-manifolds, however these lines were not provided with hardened protection.
Stairwells did not run within continuous vertical shafts, but used transfer corridors, which traversed the length of the core at several floors. Zoned smoke control was built into each buildings ventilation system, and was activated through the responding FDNY Incident Commander. The system was designed to limit smoke spread from the tenant areas into the core area.
Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolitions, Incorporated, knew immediately that both towers were doomed to collapse: The buildings were hit low, they were of an open-span designno reinforced concrete, only sheetrock on steel, and two-thirds of their external load-bearing columns were destroyed. Thousands of pounds of paper were mixed with jet fuel, and supplied with plenty of oxygen from the winds, high upso plenty of ventilation for a really hot fire that will spread everywhere immediately. Progressive collapse was inevitable. Loizeaux tried to warn the FDNY, but all line and cellular phone circuits were busyhe could not get through.
Structural elements of WTC 1 were originally fireproofed with an asbestos product up to the 39th floor. However, these materials were later removed or encapsulated, and a spray-applied coating was subsequently used on all floors of both towers. The coating was a low-density factory-mixed product, consisting of manufactured inorganic fibers, cement binders, and additives to promote wetting, set, and dust control. Air, hydraulic, and ceramic setting binders were added at the site, depending on application and weather conditions. Water was added at the spray nozzle, as the material was applied.
Spandrels and girders were specified to a 3-hour fire rating. The interior face of perimeter columns was protected with a fire-rated plaster, but the remaining surfaces were protected with the spray-on coating. Thickness of spray-on protection varied, with more massive columns having less and the lighter elements receiving a heavier coating.
Each element of the floor trussing was protected. The average thickness of fireproofing was ¾ inches, but in the mid 1990s, a decision was made to upgrade the protection by applying additional coating to a thickness of 1 and ½ inches. By September 11, 2001, thirty-one stories in the north tower had been upgraded, including the entire impact zone. Within the impact zone of the south tower only the 78th floor was upgraded.
Stairwells and elevator shafts were encased in 5/8-inch gypsum board, supported by metal studs: two layers composed the outer wall, and one layer formed the inner wall. This encasement provided the 2-hour fire rating stipulated within the New York City performance codes. (In 1968, the requirement for a smoke-proof masonry stairwell was eliminated from the New York building code.)
FIRE RESISTANCE RATINGS
The American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) determines fire resistance ratings. However, such ratings are based on laboratory tests, which are comparative only, and the rating of a particular material is not intended to predict its actual performance. Hourly fire ratings should not be thought to indicate a specific duration that the building assembly will withstand collapse in an actual fire. ASTM procedures measure only thermal properties, and structural connections are not evaluated [Table 4 and 5]. Problems cited with the current fire rating methods used by the ASTM are as follows:
1.) Laboratory-controlled tests are performed under ideal standardized scenarios that do not match typical fire conditions.
2.) Laboratory scenarios measure only the nominal fire load predicted to exist within a structure; i.e.: the amount of combustible material already in the building. These analyses do not anticipate additional sources of energy.
3.) In calculating material longevity, laboratory testing does not anticipate the sudden intensity of fires.
4.) Laboratory testing does not anticipate the added stress of structural damage.
A performance code specifies a particular fire rating, and not a type or size of material to be used in a buildings construction. Fire protection in accordance with performance codes is based on laboratory test that have no correlation with actual fires. In his 1976 book, High Rise, Fire and Life Safety, Fire Commissioner John OHagan, FDNY (Ret), listed several serious fire-safety issues for buildings constructed post 1970:
1.) Sheet rock and spray-on fireproofing are insufficient protection.
2.) Surfaces must be thoroughly clean for adhesion of spray-on coatings.
3.) Spray-on protection is applied inconsistently, with great variance. The light-weight material is easily knocked off, or dislodged from beams and columns by electrical, plumbing and HVAC tradesmen, when performing finish work.
4.) Large open spaces allow faster spread of fire.
5.) Synthetic furnishings produce more heat and smoke.
Each of these concerns manifested themselves in the WTC fires of September 11, 2001.
There is great controversy over the collapse of the WTC towers, and the process of civil litigation is now ongoing between the Port Authority of New York and New Jerseythe developer-owner and the surviving relatives of those killed in the collapse. Controversial though they may be, there are several aspects of the WTC fireproofing that require further scrutiny. The central issue is whether fire code practice was properly followed and verified during the construction of the WTC towers. There exists a body of evidence to support questions about whether fireproofing was properly doneif done at all.
During the initial construction there were reports that the structural steel was allowed to rust on site. The degraded surface condition of the steel would have made the application of spray-on fireproofing a futile endeavor. Spray-on mineral-based materials require absolutely clean surfaces for adhesion, but there are allegations that the fireproofing was applied over the rust. Additionally, and perhaps more telling, there were years of extensive litigation between the Port Authority and U.S. Minerals Productthe manufacturer of the spray-on fireproofing material, Blaze Shield-D.
There is also some bloody intrigue surrounding the contractor responsible for the application of fireproofing. Louis DiBono, a reputed member of the Gambino crime family, was paid $2.8 million to fireproof the steel in the WTC. The man, once described by the FBI as being a poor business manager whose construction companies lost a great deal of money, had been accused of shoddy workmanship. However we shall never hear his side of the story because, in October of 1990, Louis DiBono was gunned down in the parking garage of the north tower. John Gotti was later convicted of ordering the hit.
Leslie Robertson, the WTC project structural engineer, previously expressed doubts over the wisdom of using steel rods rather than bars for the floor truss webbing. Robertson pondered whether spray-on material would adhere to the 1-inch diameter cylindrical members, that the rods may not hold the spray-on fire protection as well as angled bars. But the contractor could save money by using rod stock, which was a factory-produced itemand cheaper. In the end, the project structural engineer approved the stock item for use.
Leslie Robertson has noted that the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey was exceptionally profit-minded: This wasnt corporate headquartersa monument building, it was a moneymaking proposition. Being exceptionally profit-minded the Port Authority would be in a rather compromising position, since by 1973, the WTC project costs had already reached $800 milliona 60 percent budget overrun.
The Port Authority was a bi-state agency, and as such, was not subject to New York City fire regulations or inspections. According to Alan Reiss, former Director of the WTC, the Port Authority had a policy of complying with NYC fire codes and inspection procedures. However, there is increasing testimony to the contrary.
In December of 1975, Richard Klein accompanied structural engineer Fred Chang through the south tower, while the interior was still being completed. The reason for the visit was to perform inspections of the beams and columns, and to examine the 10,000 visco-elastic dampers installed by 3M Company. Mr. Klein has publicly stated that there was no fireproofing insulation on the majority of the beam and column members.
In 1992, Roger G. Morse, an architect who specializes in forensic and environmental investigations of buildings, inspected the floor joists in the north and south towers. The absence of fireproofing was so blatant that Morse did not report it immediatelythinking it had been omitted intentionally, in favor of some other method of fire safety: The fireproofing was thin or missing virtually everywhere I checked.
Following the 1993 bombing, an upgrade was made to the fireproofing material to increase its thickness from ¾ inch to 1 and ½ inches. On September 11, 2001, only 31 of 220 floors had been upgraded. Eighteen floors in the north tower, including all of the impact area, and 13 floors in the south tower. However, the 78th floor was the only section upgraded in the impact area of the south tower.
Inspections performed on core columns in the south tower by Roger Morse, as recently as June of 2000, revealed that much of the fireproofing material was peeled off. During a hearing before the National Institute of Standards and Technology, which was conducted in the summer of 2002, Morse testified that the fireproofing was frequently insufficient or else non-existent. Morse had originally presented photographic evidence of his findings at a seminar held in December of 2001 [Fig. 33]. Frederick Mowrer, Associate Professor of Fire Protection Engineering at the University of Maryland, arranged this seminar.
In September of 2001, in the days following the attacks, John Connar of MIT, quoted Ron Hamburgerthe co-author of the FEMA WTC Building Performance Study, regarding the condition of fireproofing materials found in other WTC structures: When I visited the site, I went through the American Express and the Bankers Trust buildings, and saw large chunks of the fireproofing in those buildings knocked offand that was only by falling debris, not by an airplane hit
On October 25, 2002, an investigation conducted by Weidlinger Associates, and contracted by the WTC leaseholderSilverstein Properties, exonerated the floor truss design and the fireproofing material. The conclusions reached were:
1.) Fire temperatures on the impact floors were between 750 and 1300 degrees F.
2.) The collapse of WTC 1 and 2 was due to the failure of the columns alone, and independent of the floor trussing system.
3.) The floors survived the initial impacts, except for localized damage.
4.) Failure was due to lost fireproofing, or because of columns destroyed on impact.
5.) The WTC fire inspection program represented a greater standard of care.
However, on November 18, 2002, during a lecture given at Northwestern University, Dr. W. Gene Corley, Senior V.P. of Construction Technology Laboratories, Incorporated, stated that much of the fireproofing within WTC 1 and 2 was not secured strongly enough to withstand the impacts. Gene Corley was a central member of the investigation team during the Weidlinger study, contracted by Silverstein Properties for insurance purposes. Dr Corley noted that fireproofing, an aspect the architect designs, was ultimately the problem.
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