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The Pilgrims Were ... Socialists? [In the Tea Party view of the holiday......]
New York Times ^

Posted on 11/21/2010 8:25:00 AM PST by Sub-Driver

The Pilgrims Were ... Socialists? By KATE ZERNIKE

Ah, Thanksgiving. A celebration regardless of creed; a time for all Americans to come together after a divisive election year.

But why take a holiday from argument? In these fractious times, even the meaning of Thanksgiving is subject to political debate.

Forget what you learned about the first Thanksgiving being a celebration of a bountiful harvest, or an expression of gratitude to the Indians who helped the Pilgrims through those harsh first months in an unfamiliar land. In the Tea Party view of the holiday, the first settlers were actually early socialists. They realized the error of their collectivist ways and embraced capitalism, producing a bumper year, upon which they decided that it was only right to celebrate the glory of the free market and private property.

Historians quibble with this interpretation. But the story, related by libertarians and conservatives for years, has taken on new life over the last year among Tea Party audiences, who revere early American history, and hunger for any argument against what they believe is the big-government takeover of the United States.

It has made Thanksgiving another proxy in the debate over health care and entitlement spending, and placed it alongside the New Deal and the Constitution on the platter of historical items picked apart by competing narratives.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: socialism; thanksgiving; williambradford
The New York Times........
1 posted on 11/21/2010 8:25:04 AM PST by Sub-Driver
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To: Sub-Driver

Classic NY Times.

Pathetically dishonest.


2 posted on 11/21/2010 8:27:44 AM PST by FormerACLUmember (Character is defined by how we treat those who society says have no value.)
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To: Sub-Driver

The “Pilgrims” were actually two groups of very different people thrown together — religious types and venturers. Myles Standish, for example, was not a pious churchgoer.

I have read that the religious among the Pilgrims WERE socialist, sort of, at first, and it damn near doomed their colony, and that it was only after they abandoned socialist-type thinking that they prospered.


3 posted on 11/21/2010 8:31:33 AM PST by Flash Bazbeaux
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To: Flash Bazbeaux

As Rush states just about every year with the true story of Thanksgiving.


4 posted on 11/21/2010 8:35:23 AM PST by PeteB570 (Islam is the sea in which the terrorist shark swims. It aids & comforts the shark on it's journey.)
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To: Sub-Driver
I wouldn't want some strange woman washing my underwear.

And I am not going to give away my corn. But they can have the rutabaga.

5 posted on 11/21/2010 8:35:38 AM PST by PeaRidge
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To: Sub-Driver

ahhh.. the NYSLIMES at it’s stupid best

that story didn’t come from the Tea Party you idiots .. It came from Governor Bradford’s (the first governor of the Plimouth Colony)Journals....

But.. Bradford must have been a Teabagger /sarc


6 posted on 11/21/2010 8:36:56 AM PST by gwilhelm56 (OFFICER... when the TSA agent regains Consciousness.. Arrest him for Sexual Assault!)
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To: Sub-Driver
In the words of Paul Harvey, "And, now, the rest of the story. . . ."

The kind of "redistribution" advocated by the so-called "progressives" (whose ideas are, in fact, regressive) was tried and failed in America before!

If the American citizenry is awakened to the philosophy underlying its Declaration of Independence and Constitution, and if they will go back and review their factual history, they may perhaps begin to understand how America became the symbol of liberty, opportunity and prosperity for millions throughout the world. The following essay, is reprinted with permission.

The Miracle of America

from

axes and hoes to high technology;

log cabins to air-conditioned condos;

horsedrawn wagons to autos, planes, and rockets;

scarcity to abundance; &

from tyrannical government rule to individual liberty

HOW DID IT ALL BEGIN?

Most of our history books don’t tell us that, in the beginning, the pilgrims established a communal economic system. Each was to produce according to his ability and contribute his production to a common storehouse from which each was to draw according to his need.

The assurance that they would be fed from the common store, regardless of their contribution to it, had a peculiarly disabling effect on the colonists. Taking property away from some and giving it to others bred discontent and retarded employment. Human nature was the same then as now, and before long, there were more consumers than there were producers, and the pilgrims were near starvation. Governor Bradford, his advisors, and the colonists agreed that in order to increase their crops, each family would be allowed to do as it pleased with whatever it produced. In other words, a free market system was established. In Governor Bradford’s own words:

“This had very good success; for it made all hands very industrious, so as much more corne was planted than other waise would have bene by any means ye Governor or any other could use, and saved him a great deall of trouble, and gave farr better contente. The women now wente willingly into ye field, and tooke their little-ons with them to set corne, which before would aledg weaknes, and inabilitie; whom to have compelled would have bene though great tiranie and oppression. . . . By this time harvest was come, and instead of famine, now God gave them plenty, and the face of things was changed. . . . and some of ye abler sort and more industrious had to spare, and sell to others, so as any generall wante or famine hath not been amongst them since this day . . . .” (Wm. Bradford, “Of Plimoth Plantation,” original manuscript, Wright & Potter, Boston, 1901)

Those who, today, favor central government planning, common ownership and redistribution of the earnings of others are advocating a system that Americans tried and rejected over 350 years ago. Their wisdom gave birth to the great American miracle!

(This message originally published in the mid-1980’s by Stedman Corporation’s Government Affairs & Free Enterprise Education Program – a former NC textile firm. For more essays in this series, visit www.ouragelessconstitution.com)


7 posted on 11/21/2010 8:37:08 AM PST by loveliberty2
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To: Flash Bazbeaux
I have read that the religious among the Pilgrims WERE socialist, sort of, at first, and it damn near doomed their colony, and that it was only after they abandoned socialist-type thinking that they prospered.

You are correct sir! If the Indians had not assisted the pilgrims they would have starved.

The first time socialism was tried in North America it did not work. It still does not work!

8 posted on 11/21/2010 8:37:29 AM PST by cpdiii (Deckhand, Roughneck, Geologist, Pilot, Pharmacist, Iconoclast: THE CONSTITUTION IS WORTH DYING FOR.)
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To: Sub-Driver

They tried socialism but too many came to the table with their hands out. It never works anywhere it’s tried.


9 posted on 11/21/2010 8:38:00 AM PST by TPOOH (I wish I could have been Jerry Reed.)
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To: Sub-Driver

“Historians quibble with this interpretation,,,”

Interpretation,, the facts are not in dispute and conservatives are correct, but we still disagree.


10 posted on 11/21/2010 8:38:51 AM PST by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: Sub-Driver
I hate to intrude on the world according to the NYT, but the Plymouth colony was formed as a joint-stock company, the very latest in cutting edge capitalism in 17th century England and Holland.
11 posted on 11/21/2010 8:39:43 AM PST by mojito
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To: cpdiii

The revisionism never stops with the left

http://freedomkeys.com/thanksgiving.htm


12 posted on 11/21/2010 8:41:19 AM PST by Breto (never accept the premise)
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To: FormerACLUmember; Flash Bazbeaux; PeteB570; PeaRidge

See my post above for Bradford quotation.


13 posted on 11/21/2010 8:41:47 AM PST by loveliberty2
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To: Sub-Driver

Leave it to the Slimes to try to ruin a good patriotic story.


14 posted on 11/21/2010 8:43:56 AM PST by kitkat ( Obama didn't say Hope and Change, he said Hype and Chains.)
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To: Sub-Driver

Well, yes they did try communal living until it failed. Although I think it was Jamestown instead. The skaters caused more problems than it was worth and so they went back to everyone taking care of themselves.


15 posted on 11/21/2010 8:46:52 AM PST by dajeeps
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To: Sub-Driver
Ah the liberal elitists at the NYT.

Never pass up a chance to denigrate anything positive like the Pilgrims giving up their collectivism (not socialism) when they found out it didn't work.
Too bad Karl Marx wasn't among them. Maybe his perspective would have changed as he sat in his redistributed hovel and starved to death waiting for the proletariat to rise up and usurp the wicked bourgeoisie.

16 posted on 11/21/2010 8:50:52 AM PST by cashless (Unlike Obama and his supporters, I'd rather be a TEA BAGGER than a TEA BAGGEE.)
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To: Sub-Driver
The NYT and other so-called "progressives" never seem to relate the ideas of government planning and control and "redistribution" of "We, the People's" earnings with the consequences of such ideas.

America's Founders did understand that, and they rejected the idea of relinquishing their power to imperfect persons in positions of delegated power in their government. From their study of the history of civilization's struggles and their understanding of human nature, they knew that deficit and debt, combined with loss of freedom for the people, would be the consequence of such policy.

Hear Jefferson:

"To preserve [the] independence [of the people,] we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses, and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:39

"Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread." --Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:122

17 posted on 11/21/2010 8:50:52 AM PST by loveliberty2
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To: Sub-Driver

So what? The collective system under which they operated barely afforded their survival - and it would never have sustained a growing populace the 150 or so years until the actual founding of the Union and the constitution.


18 posted on 11/21/2010 8:54:17 AM PST by Clinging Bitterly (We need to limit political office holders to two terms. One in office, and one in prison.)
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To: TPOOH

Socialism will always fail because of simple math, but people will never give up on trying it because humans have a fundamental flaw in their psyche that I don’t think will ever go away.


19 posted on 11/21/2010 8:59:16 AM PST by Zeddicus
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To: Sub-Driver

Indeed they were socialists...at first. And like socialism everywhere throughout history, it damned near wiped the Pilgrims from the new world!! Only when they began the practices of free enterprise and individuality did they begin to prosper. But don’t expect to find THAT little tidbit anywhere in the NY Times!!


20 posted on 11/21/2010 9:01:07 AM PST by Oldpuppymax
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To: DesertRhino

True, but watch the terminology about “competing narratives.” The postmodern approach to history is that all facts are “untrue” except to the people who believe them. A “narrative” is a postmodern way of dismissing objective facts as no more than a sequence of subjective beliefs, so the facts don’t matter, only the persuasive quality of the “narrative.” Which is precisely why the dems keep saying, “well, our message isn’t working,” instead of “our grasp of physical reality is defective.” For them, reality is created by a good narrative, nit the other way around. It’s no wonder they’re “reality challenged” when it comes to doing anything that actually works, other than propaganda. They’re really good at that.


21 posted on 11/21/2010 9:02:47 AM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Sub-Driver

They started out as socialist and it nearly killed them all the first year. It was only after they dropped the commie nonsense that they were able to thrive.


22 posted on 11/21/2010 9:09:01 AM PST by Paine in the Neck (Napolean fries the idea powder.)
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To: Sub-Driver

The Pilgrims Were ... Socialists? ................ No Kimosabe, they were Illegal Aliens.


23 posted on 11/21/2010 9:09:11 AM PST by Bringbackthedraft (The candidate they smear and ridicule the most is the one they fear the most.)
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To: loveliberty2

thanks for the post!


24 posted on 11/21/2010 9:16:51 AM PST by infidel29 (Since 0bama is NOT a uniter, can we change the acronym to just plain P.O.S.?)
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To: LS

Care to weigh in on this, as FR’s resident historian?


25 posted on 11/21/2010 9:21:14 AM PST by Maceman (Obama: As American as nasi goreng)
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To: Flash Bazbeaux
There were several sailings. Called what I believe was the Winthrope sailings? Dont know for sure and would have to check on that. Yet, My ancestors (Temples) were there in 1636 and got the hell out of there because of the constant infighting and legal cases for simple things like horses jumping fences and getting into neighbors fields. Abraham Temple was sued for that very thing.

They left England for religious persecution and what’d they do? They brought it right along with them. See what they did to Mary Dyer the Quaker Martyr who was hanged, Boston Commons 1660 for simply preaching the Quaker faith.

26 posted on 11/21/2010 9:23:19 AM PST by crz
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To: Sub-Driver

Bizarre


27 posted on 11/21/2010 9:26:16 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: Maceman

It’s true that both the Jamestown colony and the Plymouth colony was socialist when they first arrived, which is to say they used communal food bins and commons. But the number of people working shrank, while the number of people taking from the common food storage rose. So John Smith in VA and Bradford’s predecessor in MA both parceled out the land and turned the systems capitalist, and within a few months they had surpluses.


28 posted on 11/21/2010 9:27:58 AM PST by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: LS

Would you say that the story is true as Rush relates it?

RUSH: Now, the real story of Thanksgiving: “On August 1, 1620, the Mayflower set sail. It carried a total of 102 passengers, including forty Pilgrims led by William Bradford. On the journey, Bradford set up an agreement, a contract, that established just and equal laws for all members of the new community, irrespective of their religious beliefs. Where did the revolutionary ideas expressed in the Mayflower Compact come from? From the Bible,” and this is what’s not taught. This is what’s left out. “The Pilgrims were a people completely steeped in the lessons of the Old and New Testaments. They looked to the ancient Israelites for their example. And, because of the biblical precedents set forth in Scripture, they never doubted that their experiment would work. But this was no pleasure cruise, friends. The journey to the New World was a long and arduous one. And when the Pilgrims landed in New England in November, they found, according to Bradford’s detailed journal, a cold, barren, desolate wilderness. There were no friends to greet them, he wrote. There were no houses to shelter them. There were no inns where they could refresh themselves. And the sacrifice they had made for freedom was just beginning. During the first winter, half the Pilgrims — including Bradford’s own wife — died of either starvation, sickness, or exposure.

“When spring finally came, Indians taught the settlers how to plant corn, fish for cod and skin beavers for coats. Life improved for the Pilgrims, but they did not yet prosper! This is important to understand because this is where modern American history lessons often end. Thanksgiving is actually explained in some textbooks as a holiday for which the Pilgrims gave thanks to the Indians for saving their lives, rather than as a devout expression of gratitude grounded in the tradition of both the Old and New Testaments. Here is the part that has been omitted: The original contract the Pilgrims had entered into with their merchant-sponsors in London called for everything they produced to go into a common store, and each member of the community was entitled to one common share. All of the land they cleared and the houses they built belong to the community as well.” They were collectivists! Now, “Bradford, who had become the new governor of the colony, recognized that this form of collectivism was as costly and destructive to the Pilgrims as that first harsh winter, which had taken so many lives.

“He decided to take bold action. Bradford assigned a plot of land to each family to work and manage, thus turning loose the power of the marketplace. ... Long before Karl Marx was even born, the Pilgrims had discovered and experimented with what could only be described as socialism. And what happened? It didn’t work! Surprise, surprise, huh? What Bradford and his community found was that the most creative and industrious people had no incentive to work any harder than anyone else, unless they could utilize the power of personal motivation! But while most of the rest of the world has been experimenting with socialism for well over a hundred years — trying to refine it, perfect it, and re-invent it — the Pilgrims decided early on to scrap it permanently. What Bradford wrote about this social experiment should be in every schoolchild’s history lesson,” every kid gets. “If it were, we might prevent much needless suffering in the future.” Here’s what he wrote: “’The experience that we had in this common course and condition, tried sundry years...that by taking away property, and bringing community into a common wealth, would make them happy and flourishing — as if they were wiser than God,’ Bradford wrote.

“’For this community [so far as it was] was found to breed much confusion and discontent, and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort. For young men that were most able and fit for labor and service did repine that they should spend their time and strength to work for other men’s wives and children without any recompense...that was thought injustice.’” That was thought injustice. “Do you hear what he was saying, ladies and gentlemen? The Pilgrims found that people could not be expected to do their best work without incentive. So what did Bradford’s community try next? They unharnessed the power of good old free enterprise by invoking the undergirding capitalistic principle of private property. Every family was assigned its own plot of land to work and permitted to market its own crops and products. And what was the result?” ‘This had very good success,’ wrote Bradford, “for it made all hands industrious, so as much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been.” Bradford doesn’t sound like much of a Clintonite, does he? Is it possible that supply-side economics could have existed before the 1980s? ... In no time, the Pilgrims found they had more food than they could eat themselves. ... So they set up trading posts and exchanged goods with the Indians.
“The profits allowed them to pay off their debts to the merchants in London. And the success and prosperity of the Plymouth settlement attracted more Europeans and began what came to be known as the ‘Great Puritan Migration.’” Now, aside from this program, have you heard this before? Is this “being taught to children — and if not, why not? I mean, is there a more important lesson one could derive from the Pilgrim experience than this?” What if Bill and Hillary Clinton had been exposed to these lessons in school? Do you realize what we face in next year’s election is the equivalent of people who want to set up these original collectivists communes that didn’t work, with nobody having incentive to do anything except get on the government dole somehow because the people running the government want that kind of power. So the Pilgrims decided to thank God for all of their good fortune. And that’s Thanksgiving. And read George Washington’s first Thanksgiving address and count the number of times God is mentioned and how many times he’s thanked. None of this is taught today. It should be. Have a happy Thanksgiving, folks. You deserve it. Do what you can to be happy, and especially do what you can to be thankful, because in this country you have more reasons than you’ve ever stopped to consider.


29 posted on 11/21/2010 9:35:38 AM PST by Maceman (Obama: As American as nasi goreng)
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To: Sub-Driver

On the good side, at least the New York Times is readily admitting they are full-on socialists.

On the bad side, the New York Times is confusing cooperation with socialism.


30 posted on 11/21/2010 9:36:28 AM PST by Lazamataz
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To: Sub-Driver

The were indeed Socialist. Fro a short period of time and they finally got that old time religion.

It is amazing to me that they do not teach William Bradford’s writings in High school as they are truly enlightening.


31 posted on 11/21/2010 9:38:18 AM PST by texmexis best
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To: Sub-Driver

(Encyclopoedia of Massachusetts Biography)
Abraham Temple, undoubtedly of English Birth, was in Salem, Massachusetts, as early as 1636; there his first grant of land was five acres, to which five acres more were added, November 21, 1638. He was a freeman of Salem, June 21, 1637, at which time he proposed the name of a fellow citizen as a freeman. He died soon after 1639, and his widow Margaret married a second time about 1651. He is supposed to have been a tailor by occupation. He had two(sic) sons:Richard;Tobias, born after 1627;Robert born before 1637.


You’ll note to word “Freeman” There is a difference between “freeman” and “freemen”. I read up on it one time and have long forgotten what it was. But, it basically was a type of nobility that was established and you were indentured to the society until you fulfilled your obligations to the compact. So, in fact it was a form a slavery to the compact until you bought your way out of it..or fulfilled the contract you signed onto. Some never fulfilled it because it was to restrictive and those simply left. They could pile restrictions upon restrictions until one could never become a free man.


32 posted on 11/21/2010 9:41:08 AM PST by crz
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To: Sub-Driver
Historians quibble with this interpretation.

Historian's can't quibble with the facts as written in "William Bradford, History of Plymouth Plantation, 1620-1647". This was written by Bradford himself, who was the Governor of Plymouth colony at the time. He relates unequivocally how the colony was set up on a socialist system and in bred anger, resentment and laziness. When converted to a capitalist system, the people were energetic and industrious and turned the colony around. How do you quibble over the clear account written by the leader of the colony?

33 posted on 11/21/2010 9:43:10 AM PST by CMAC51
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To: Sub-Driver
Historians quibble with this interpretation.

Historian's can't quibble with the facts as written in "William Bradford, History of Plymouth Plantation, 1620-1647". This was written by Bradford himself, who was the Governor of Plymouth colony at the time. He relates unequivocally how the colony was set up on a socialist system and in bred anger, resentment and laziness. When converted to a capitalist system, the people were energetic and industrious and turned the colony around. How do you quibble over the clear account written by the leader of the colony?

34 posted on 11/21/2010 9:43:21 AM PST by CMAC51
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To: CMAC51

I like how in bradford own words

“The women now wente willingly into ye field, and tooke their little-ons with them to set corne, which before would aledg weaknes, and inabilitie; whom to have compelled would have bene though great tiranie and oppression.”

I am thinking of all the millions sitting around in the projects claiming back injuries prevent them from working.

Human nature hasn’t changed one bit. But liberals never see this, they can only see the world and people for how they WANT it to be, instead of how it really is.


35 posted on 11/21/2010 10:00:38 AM PST by TexasFreeper2009 (Obama = Epic Fail)
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To: FormerACLUmember

File this under “Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.” Hate to tell you, but they’re right on this one.

· In 1978, we took the RV and the kids up to Plymouth to see my wife’s sister who lived there at the time. We visited Plymouth Plantation. During the tour, I was struck by the presence of fortified guard shacks in the town square and asked the guide if they were a last line of defense for the citizens there if trouble with the natives spilled into the compound. He told us that they were for the control of the FOOD RIOTS which broke out those first few winters — BEFORE they wisely abandoned their clearly failed experiment with collectivism — before Marx was even born.
Seems each generation or so we must relearn the hard lessons of history.
OBOWMA will teach us the next round of such lessons. I suspect they will be BITTER ones indeed.
Have a wonderful day.


36 posted on 11/21/2010 10:19:44 AM PST by Dick Bachert (11/2 was a good start. Onward to '12. U Pubbies be strong or next time we send in the libertarians!)
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To: Sub-Driver

The myth that the Pilgrims had the first thanksgiving in America is well established but wrong. The first thanksgiving celebration in America took place on the Berkley Plantation in 1619 in Virginia. Since the south lost the War Between the States that is unacceptable. Don’t rely on me, check it out. It is well documented.


37 posted on 11/21/2010 10:22:57 AM PST by Eaglefixer
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To: Eaglefixer

Try this site.

http://www.virginia.org/site/features.asp?featureid=50


38 posted on 11/21/2010 10:28:23 AM PST by Eaglefixer
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To: Sub-Driver

Puritan Economic Experiments by Gary North, PhD.
http://www.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/a_pdfs/gnpe.pdf

If you are interested in reading a historical account of the economics of Plymouth, this is the book to read.


39 posted on 11/21/2010 10:49:37 AM PST by Madam Theophilus
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To: Sub-Driver

They learned through harsh reality that Socialism DID NOT WORK except where there are kind hearted Capitalists to bail them out from time to time when they “Fail”.


40 posted on 11/21/2010 10:56:12 AM PST by jongaltsr (It)
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To: Sub-Driver
Typical. The NYT just tells the part of the story that fits its agenda.

A Thanksgiving Lesson -- Joseph Farah

...When the Pilgrims landed in the New World, they found a cold, rocky, barren, desolate wilderness. There were no friends to greet them, Bradford wrote. No houses to shelter them. No inns where they could refresh themselves. During the first winter, half the Pilgrims died of sickness or exposure –including Bradford's wife. Though life improved for the Pilgrims when spring came, they did not really prosper. Why? Once again, the textbooks don't tell the story, but Bradford's own journal does. The reason they didn't succeed initially is because they were practicing an early form of socialism.

The original contract the Pilgrims had with their merchant-sponsors in London called for everything they produced to go into a common store. Each member of the community was entitled to one common share. All of the land they cleared and the houses they built belonged to the community. Bradford, as governor, recognized the inherent problem with this collectivist system.

"The experience that was had in this common course and condition, tried sundry years ... that by taking away property, and bringing community into common wealth, would make them happy and flourishing – as if they were wiser than God," Bradford wrote. "For this community (so far as it was) was found to breed much confusion and discontent, and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort. For young men that were most able and fir for labor and service did repine that they should spend their time and strength to work for other men's wives and children without any recompense ... that was thought injustice."

What a surprise! Even back then people did not want to work without incentive. Bradford decided to assign a plot of land to each family to work and manage, thus turning loose the power of free enterprise. What was the result?

"This had very good success," wrote Bradford, "for it made all hands industrious, so as much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been..."

41 posted on 11/21/2010 10:59:14 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (The people who hate Sarah Palin hate her because they know that her Presidency is inevitable.)
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To: Sub-Driver
Did anyone catch this:

"Thanksgiving being a celebration of a bountiful harvest, or an expression of gratitude to the Indians"

There's a push to redefine the holiday vis-a-vis to Whom thanks is to be given. The media encourages a totally pedestrian "thanks a lot" approach. I think a dangerous plurality in this country have no idea what this holiday's about.

42 posted on 11/21/2010 11:01:04 AM PST by Oratam
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To: loveliberty2

Exactly. To my delight I have been able to introduce all three of my kids to the perils and pitfalls of socialism by 2nd grade by using this very illustration, that the common storehouse practiced by the Plymouth settlers DID NOT WORK. The joys of homeschooling...


43 posted on 11/21/2010 11:39:13 AM PST by agrace
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To: Maceman

Yes, it is very close. Bradford later said of socialism, “We thought we were smarter than God” (paraphrasing).


44 posted on 11/21/2010 12:35:41 PM PST by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: agrace
Your children are fortunate. I heard a retired head of the Education Department at a major university state that "the home school movement is the brightest spot in American education." He was correct.

Had your children been in a so-called "public school" they would never have been exposed to accounts like that of Governor Bradford. Nor would they have heard advice like that contained in the following excerpts from Thomas Jefferson's letter to young Peter Carr:

“When your mind shall be well improved with science, nothing will be necessary to place you in the highest points of view, but to pursue the interests of your country, the interests of your friends, and your own interests also, with the purest integrity, the most chaste honor.
The defect of these virtues can never be made up by all the other acquirements of body and mind. Make these then your first object.
Give up money, give up fame, give up science, give the earth itself and all it contains, rather than do an immoral act. And never suppose, that in any possible situation, or under any circumstances, it is best for you to do a dishonorable thing, however slightly so it may appear to you.
Whenever you are to do a thing, though it can never be known but to yourself, ask yourself how you would act were all the world looking at you, and act accordingly.
Encourage all your virtuous dispositions, and exercise them whenever an opportunity arises; being assured that they will gain strength by exercise, as a limb of the body does, and that exercise will make them habitual. From the practice of the purest virtue, you may be assured you will derive the most sublime comforts in every moment of life, and in the moment of death.
If ever you find yourself environed with difficulties and perplexing circumstances, out of which you are at a loss how to extricate yourself, do what is right, and be assured that that will extricate you the best out of the worst situations.
Though you cannot see, when you take one step, what will be the next, yet follow truth, justice, and plain dealing, and never fear their leading you out of the labyrinth, in the easiest manner possible. The knot which you thought a Gordian one, will untie itself before you. Nothing is so mistaken as the supposition, that a person is to extricate himself from a difficulty, by intrigue, by chicanery, by dissimulation, by trimming, by an untruth, by an injustice. This increases the difficulties ten fold; and those who pursue these methods, get themselves so involved at length, that they can turn no way but their infamy becomes more exposed.
It is of great importance to set a resolution, not to be shaken, never to tell an untruth. There is no vice so mean, so pitiful, so contemptible; and he who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him. This falsehood of the tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions.
An honest heart being the first blessing, a knowing head is the second.” - (Excerpted from Thomas Jefferson’s Letter to young Peter Carr, August 19, 1785)"

Sadly, many of our politicians never become statesmen like Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Adams, and the others of our country's founding generation.

45 posted on 11/21/2010 1:53:07 PM PST by loveliberty2
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To: loveliberty2

That’s fantastic, actually brought tears to my eyes. Such moral clarity. I think I’ll read that to my kids tomorrow.

Case in point - just now I asked my 7 yr old if putting food into a common storehouse worked for the Pilgrims and she said “no... and at Jamestown John Smith said ‘whoever will not work will not eat.’” Gotta love that.


46 posted on 11/21/2010 4:45:01 PM PST by agrace
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To: agrace
Thank you for sharing. You may want to share with them also the following Jefferson treasures:

"COUNSEL TO A NAMESAKE

To Thomas Jefferson Smith, Monticello, February 21, 1825

This letter will, to you, be as one from the dead. The writer will be in the grave before you can weigh its counsels. Your affectionate and excellent father has requested that I would address to you something which might possibly have a favorable influence on the course of life you have to run, and I too, as a namesake, feel an interest in that course. Few words will be necessary, with good dispositions on your part. Adore God. Reverence and cherish your parents. Love your neighbor as yourself, and your country more than yourself. Be just. Be true. Murmur not at the ways of Providence. So shall the life into which you have entered, be the portal to one of eternal and ineffable bliss. And if to the dead it is permitted to care for the things of this world, every action of your life will be under my regard. Farewell."


--------------
"The portrait of a good man by the most sublime of poets, for your imitation.

Lord, who's the happy man that may to thy blest courts repair;
Not stranger-like to visit them but to inhabit there?
'Tis he whose every thought and deed by rules of virtue moves;
Whose generous tongue disdains to speak the thing his heart disproves.
Who never did a slander forge, his neighbor's fame to wound;
Nor hearken to a false report, by malice whispered round.
Who vice in all its pomp and power, can treat with just neglect;
And piety, though clothed in rages, religiously respect.
Who to his plighted vows and trust has ever firmly stood;
And though he promise to his loss, he makes his promise good.
Whose soul in usury disdains his treasure to employ;
Whom no rewards can ever bribe the guiltless to destroy.
The man, who, by his steady course, has happiness insur'd.
When earth's foundations shake, shall stand, by Providence secur'd."


----------
"A Decalogue of Canons for observation in practical life.
  1. Never put off till to-morrow what you can do to-day.
  2. Never trouble another for what you can do yourself.
  3. Never spend your money before you have it.
  4. Never buy what you do not want, because it is cheap; it will be dear to you.
  5. Pride costs us more than hunger, thirst and cold.
  6. We never repent of having eaten too little.
  7. Nothing is troublesome that we do willingly.
  8. How much pain have cost us the evils which have never happened.
  9. Take things always by their smooth handle.
  10. When angry, count ten, before you speak; if very angry, an hundred."

    Personally, #9 in the last grouping has benefited me many times over the past several years since I first read Jefferson's advice. If you have not used these yet, I hope they will be beneficial to your children's education, as they were to me.


47 posted on 11/21/2010 6:02:45 PM PST by loveliberty2
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To: Flash Bazbeaux
They tried socialism the first year and lost over 1/2 the population...Wised up for the second year and gave each person a piece of land to raise their food....thanksgiving was the thank you to God for a bountiful harvest. (and capitalism) the farmers fed their family's and had enough left over to sell to the others.... Like the bible say's, he who does not work, does not eat..
48 posted on 11/21/2010 7:45:51 PM PST by goat granny
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