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2011 The year when money starts to die
http://www.financeandeconomics.org/ ^ | Alasdair Macleod

Posted on 01/05/2011 9:54:25 PM PST by dollarbull

Between 1716 and 1720, John Law tried to rescue the French government from bankruptcy with a scheme that came to be called “The Mississippi Bubble”. His strategy was to set up two entities: a bank whose purpose was to issue paper money, and a company whose primary but undeclared function was to refinance government debt. Law realised that he had to confiscate all gold and silver other than smaller quantities, and force French citizens to pay their taxes and buy shares in the Mississippi Company, only with the bank’s newly issued notes. These were the three essential elements of his scheme.[i]

This is precisely what central banks in the US, Europe, Japan and the UK are doing today. They are rigging the markets by buying government debt at artificially high prices with freshly created paper money, having previously excluded gold and silver from any role as legal tender. The following quote from John Law, could equally be attributed to a central banker of today: “An abundance of money which would lower the interest rate to two per cent would, in reducing the financing costs of the debts and public offices etc. relieve the King.” This is quantitative easing, pure and simple, and John Law had fully anticipated modern central banking. Law’s scheme ended in disaster and as a precedent for today’s central banking this should worry us greatly.

(Excerpt) Read more at financeandeconomics.org ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy
KEYWORDS: gold; goldbugs; hardmoneydelusions; hyperinflation; sourcetitlenoturl
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Kansas City Fed Gov out today saying gold standard is "legitimate".

Paperbugs getting nervous?

1 posted on 01/05/2011 9:54:28 PM PST by dollarbull
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To: dollarbull
Again the problem... the value of gold is entirely based on psychology and psychiatry and not on economics and physics. The danger is that the world could wake up to that reality.

A detailed statement of the problems resides here.

2 posted on 01/05/2011 10:00:18 PM PST by wendy1946
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To: wendy1946

The value of the fiat dollar is what is based on psychology.

Gold has a 5000+ year history of being valuable. You cannot reconcile that with your beliefs...cognitive dissonance if I’ve ever seen it.


3 posted on 01/05/2011 10:04:30 PM PST by dollarbull (why are paperbugs so bad at history?)
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To: wendy1946

There has never been a time when Gold was worth nothing.


4 posted on 01/05/2011 10:08:11 PM PST by BooBoo1000 (" Let go, and Let God")
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To: BooBoo1000; wendy1946
There has never been a time when Gold was worth nothing.

Correct. And paper money becomes worthless EVERY time.

Wendy doesn't get it
5 posted on 01/05/2011 10:10:53 PM PST by dollarbull (why are paperbugs so bad at history?)
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To: dollarbull

Martin Armstrong has written some great things lately. He was held in prison on contempt of court in one of the weirdest cases in history.

http://www.martinarmstrong.org/economic_projections.htm

He said govts have been defaulting on debt for over 2,000 years. The American public is so manipulated by the media especially TV - ALL of TV is garbage including Fox. CNBC is the worst. I am so glad I dumped TV over a year ago.

If you want to learn something more about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKTQze2UKWc


6 posted on 01/05/2011 10:15:23 PM PST by Frantzie (Slaves do not have freedom only the illusion of freedom & their cable TV to drool at)
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To: BooBoo1000
There has never been a time when Gold was worth nothing.

There's always a first time. For example, if you and one other guy were stuck on a desert island with two loaves of bread, would you sell your loaf to him for all of his gold? I doubt it. If we experience financial collapse in this country, which would most likely also mean financial collapse of the world, what will gold truly be worth? Or would barter be better?
7 posted on 01/05/2011 10:38:40 PM PST by fr_freak
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To: fr_freak

People will barter (trade). They will trade whatever they have for whatever they need.


8 posted on 01/05/2011 10:46:00 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: fr_freak
If we experience financial collapse in this country, which would most likely also mean financial collapse of the world, what will gold truly be worth? Or would barter be better?

There have been literally 100s of financial collapses in history. Gold always holds its value and paper money always fails.

OTOH, no one has ever been trapped on a deserted island with gold, bread and a stranger.

To each his own...but those that know their history can see what's coming.
9 posted on 01/05/2011 10:47:42 PM PST by dollarbull (why are paperbugs so bad at history?)
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To: wendy1946

Wendy is absolutely correct: “the value of gold is entirely based on psychology”.

Federal Reserve Notes are much, much more secure than gold because they are backed by US Treasury securities, which are in turn backed by the full faith and credit of the US government. Well, they used to be ... now there are bunch of junk mortgages backing US dollars, but there are still a whole lot of US Treasury securities on the Fed’s balance sheet.

So the question is, which do you put your faith in, gold or the US government?


10 posted on 01/05/2011 10:51:59 PM PST by Skepolitic
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To: dollarbull; wendy1946
Of course. The value of every economic thing is "based on psychology."
11 posted on 01/05/2011 10:53:25 PM PST by Erasmus (Personal goal: Have a bigger carbon footprint than Tony Robbins.)
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To: wendy1946
Again the problem... the value of gold is entirely based on psychology and psychiatry and not on economics and physics. The danger is that the world could wake up to that reality.

Dream on. You can stick with Keynes and the Experts in Washington. A Psychological aberration that has persisted universally for in excess of 5 millennias is probably at least as reliable as the wonderfully rational fiat money of the government experts for so long as there have been governments and has been very reliably debased to the destruction of systems and empires over and over again for almost that same period of time.

12 posted on 01/05/2011 11:03:01 PM PST by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's "Economics In One Lesson.")
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To: wendy1946
Again the problem... the value of gold is entirely based on psychology and psychiatry and not on economics and physics. The danger is that the world could wake up to that reality.

Dream on. You can stick with Keynes and the Experts in Washington. A Psychological aberration that has persisted universally for in excess of 5 millennia is probably at least as reliable as the wonderfully rational fiat money of the government experts for so long as there have been governments and has been very reliably debased to the destruction of systems and empires over and over again for almost that same period of time.

13 posted on 01/05/2011 11:03:21 PM PST by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's "Economics In One Lesson.")
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To: dollarbull
OTOH, no one has ever been trapped on a deserted island with gold, bread and a stranger.

Really? You're absolutely sure about that? Well, let me tell you a story, then. It all began with a 3 hour tour...
14 posted on 01/05/2011 11:14:40 PM PST by fr_freak
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To: wendy1946
Only Government can take something as useful as paper and make it worthless by adding ink to it.

Unless you think this "can never happen here" that is:


15 posted on 01/05/2011 11:23:22 PM PST by superloser
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To: Secret Agent Man
People will barter (trade). They will trade whatever they have for whatever they need.

What happens if the person that has what you need doesn't need what you have?

16 posted on 01/05/2011 11:23:41 PM PST by Antonello (Oh my God, don't shoot the banana!)
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To: Antonello
What happens if the person that has what you need doesn't need what you have?

that is the purpose of money. that is what defines money. it is the good that has the most utility in barter. that's why gold and silver are money, will always be money.
17 posted on 01/05/2011 11:26:55 PM PST by dollarbull (why are paperbugs so bad at history?)
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To: jiggyboy; PA Engineer; blam; TigerLikesRooster; Cheap_Hessian; CJinVA; Jet Jaguar; ...

Goldbug ping.


18 posted on 01/05/2011 11:27:55 PM PST by Jet Jaguar
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To: dollarbull

Here is a fun animation of the housing crash mixed in with a very quick history of money.

It is pretty funny. Bit of Back to the Future, Twilight Zone, and ends with a nod to 300, only 29 minutes long.

The American Dream
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv2oCXbW4r0&feature=player_embedded


19 posted on 01/05/2011 11:28:13 PM PST by TruthConquers (Delendae sunt publicae scholae)
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To: dollarbull
that is the purpose of money. that is what defines money. it is the good that has the most utility in barter. that's why gold and silver are money, will always be money.

Does that not then simply make gold and silver a symbolic measure of the total production of an economy? If that is the case and the total amount of precious metal reserves set aside for currency remains fixed, would a prosperous, growing economy strengthen or weaken the buying power of a gold-backed unit of money?

20 posted on 01/05/2011 11:37:27 PM PST by Antonello (Oh my God, don't shoot the banana!)
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To: dollarbull; wendy1946

The truth is not that gold has any intrinsic value (something known to the ancient Romans) but that that it is just plain hard work to get more of it in circulation. In contrast, a government with floating paper can just “monetize” its debt whenever it feels the need (usually often).

Why is gold better than paper? Try a thought experiment. Which is a faster way of producing dollars: Congress going out into the hills with pickaxes, or Congress going into session?

The value of gold is the same as the value of a written Constitution - in its restraint of government.


21 posted on 01/05/2011 11:41:13 PM PST by mrreaganaut (weltschmerz: the sadness one feels when contemplating how far the real world is from an ideal world.)
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To: wendy1946

Every paperbug has to answer this question: which is the easier to create ex niliho, paper currency/credit accounts or gold? If money is a store of value then which kind of money is easier to manipulate if you need to steal without stealing?


22 posted on 01/05/2011 11:41:27 PM PST by garbanzo (You better hold on; This one's about to get bumpy.)
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To: Skepolitic
"So the question is, which do you put your faith in, gold or the US government?"

With this administration? 3Gs

God, guns, and gold.

23 posted on 01/05/2011 11:47:27 PM PST by RebelTex (FREEDOM IS EVERYONE'S RIGHT! AND EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY!)
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To: dollarbull
Nice article. I especially like the quote from Omar Khayyam in the last paragraph.

Money serves two purposes: as a medium of exchange and a store of value. The former use is why it is better than barter - instead of an N*M problem (N needs finding M goods) we have an N+M problem - N needs paying money for M goods.

Almost anything can serve as a medium of exchange: beads, cowrie shells, bits of paper with pictures of dead people on them. But a store of value, to be effective, must retain that value indefinitely - you should be able to leave your value to your son (or daughter), and he to his son, and so on. And, throughout all recorded history, there is only one safe store of value: gold.

24 posted on 01/05/2011 11:53:34 PM PST by John Locke
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To: arthurus

One could argue that gold is valuable because people like it, rather than people like it because it’s valuable.

Throughout recorded history, people liked to wear the pretty, rare, yellow metal.

The psychology involved is the psychology involved with making jewelry out of it. If people didn’t find gold pretty anymore, that would effect the price of gold.


25 posted on 01/05/2011 11:56:08 PM PST by truthfreedom
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To: John Locke

Very good.


26 posted on 01/05/2011 11:59:13 PM PST by Jet Jaguar
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To: Antonello
would a prosperous, growing economy strengthen or weaken the buying power of a gold-backed unit of money?

Would it really remain fixed? Even in a nominally fixed-amount system, it would pay for private investors to exploit available sources of gold, unofficially increasing currency. Some economists believe that this slow increase would be the best system, as a truly fixed M1 would be deflationary in a growing economy. Many economists believe that deflation is more destructive than inflation, because in deflation, nominal income would fall, while nominal debts would not.

But to answer your question simply: a growing economy would strengthen the buying power of a fixed amount of gold-backed notes.

27 posted on 01/06/2011 12:11:29 AM PST by mrreaganaut (weltschmerz: the sadness one feels when contemplating how far the real world is from an ideal world.)
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To: wendy1946

Hmm?

Gold has an economic value. Gold doesn’t weather. This is why it was, and will always be used to store wealth.

Paper on the other hand, what value is it except to burn?


28 posted on 01/06/2011 12:17:01 AM PST by BenKenobi (Rush speaks! I hear, I obey)
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To: truthfreedom
It would not "effect" the price of gold. It would affect it but I don't think that particular effect if is going to happen outside of the minds of those oh so very rational people who hold that gold has no real value because you can't eat it, it won't keep the rain off you and it won't keep you warm. Actually, ALL value is psychological, depending on the value that informs people's choices for how to make use of their resources. Some of the things that have value are perishable thus their value is ephemeral and they are not a useful store of value. Other things, such as land, are entirely too bulky to use as any sort of medium of exchange. Some desirable things vary greatly in their occurrence and are not a stable store of value. Gold is mined at fairly steady rates and is highly unlikely to suddenly increase in amount or decrease, either. Gold is unique. It is beautiful and will be regarded as such so long as humans have any appreciation for adornment or art. Gold does not rot, rust, or otherwise waste away. Gold is portable. You can carry around a substantial sưm of value on your person without immobilizing both hands. Gold is a permanent and consistent valuable asset that will not become useless as a store of value and/or medium of exchange so long as humans are free to make choices for themselves. In a perfect totalitarian state there would be no use for gold. In a human totalitarian state gold will still be the supreme store of value. The opulent ruling class will always crave it for decoration and it will always be less than water-common.
29 posted on 01/06/2011 12:21:00 AM PST by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's "Economics In One Lesson.")
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To: truthfreedom
One could argue that gold is valuable because people like it, rather than people like it because it’s valuable.

And that is precisely why gold is , always has been, and always will be valuable.

30 posted on 01/06/2011 12:23:05 AM PST by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's "Economics In One Lesson.")
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To: fr_freak

I’d trade my gold AND my loaf of bread for Ginger.


31 posted on 01/06/2011 1:01:55 AM PST by Terry Mross ( Time for a true conservative third party.)
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To: dollarbull

mark


32 posted on 01/06/2011 2:42:22 AM PST by nkycincinnatikid
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To: truthfreedom

The human mind is fascinated with anything bright - gold, silver copper; therefore, the metals will keep their value.

If we ever advance beyond our prehistoric predilection for shiny things, that will change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvmvu6GxqSg&feature=related
Part 3/3


33 posted on 01/06/2011 2:47:02 AM PST by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners)
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To: fr_freak; Terry Mross

“....you and one other guy were stuck on a desert island with two loaves of bread, would you sell your loaf to him for all of his gold?”

Yes, I would.

Then I’d go fishing with my newly made solid gold fish hook and trade him my extra fish for his bread AND his gold when he got really hungry. When I got rescued a week later (using a shiny gold coin to signal the search plane) I’d come back, buy the island and open a fishing resort for fellow Freepers.

And bring Ginger and Mary Anne with me!


34 posted on 01/06/2011 3:08:29 AM PST by panaxanax (IMPEACH THE MUSLIM MARXIST....NOW!!!)
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To: Skepolitic

Perhaps your humor is too subtle for me.

I have gold and silver stored in a fire proof vault, right next to an impressive collection of firearms, that I have absolute control over. It is there to serve whatever need of mine I should desire.

Less that 100 miles from where I now sit, lies the seat of US Government in all of it’s might, though lacking some of it’s former glory at the moment. I have no control what so ever over the monster that it has become. It considers me, as a productive citizen, to be here to serve any need what so ever it should consider necessary.

I guess I have to go with the gold. At least if I have to bug out, I can take some of it with me.


35 posted on 01/06/2011 3:25:06 AM PST by Rearden (Deo Vindice)
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To: wendy1946
The entire concept of currency is based on psychology and psychiatry. The idea that an object has any value is all in your head.
36 posted on 01/06/2011 4:03:50 AM PST by ex 98C MI Dude (Alea Iacta Est)
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To: mrreaganaut
The value of gold is the same as the value of a written Constitution - in its restraint of government.

lol. Maybe you need a better analogy. The Constitution restrains government? LoL!

37 posted on 01/06/2011 4:30:01 AM PST by Huck (Do talk radio hosts get paid extra when they use the word "impugn"? It sure seems like it.)
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To: ex 98C MI Dude

Money has to be based on something connected to reality (as opposed to gold); best would be to base it on some typical basket of the goods and services which your country actually produces.


38 posted on 01/06/2011 4:39:05 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: Skepolitic

GOLD and Silver too, do I win?


39 posted on 01/06/2011 4:40:15 AM PST by 2001convSVT (That Beck guy was right about gold, too.)
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To: dollarbull; wendy1946

——The value of the fiat dollar is what is based on psychology.——

The value of the fiat currency is based on nothing. The value is derived from the public faith in the governments that issued the paper. The problems arise when the governments are corrupted and the looting becomes the primary objective. Once the money is stolen and only debt instruments remain, faith crumbles.

Chris Dodd, Barney Franks and Eliot Spitzer are the figurehead examples of the thieves. Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are implementers of the looter policy.

There should be talk of death to the looters but alas complacent sheep are content with their chains, misery and bottled water.


40 posted on 01/06/2011 4:49:34 AM PST by bert (K.E. N.P. N.C. D.E. +12 .....( History is a process, not an event ))
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To: bert
I'll say it again. Gold is basically worthless and today's market for it is a classic bubble, and anybody buying it at these prices is an idiot. The only two uses there are for the stuff is for electrical connectors and jewelry; the amount of the stuff stashed at Knox alone has to be millions of times what the planet will ever need for connectors and bracelets and there are much cheaper metals to make connectors and bracelets out of.

The one other thing gold would be really good for would be waterfowl shot. Half again denser than lead, soft, and totally inert, it would be the perfect metal for killing ducks and geese with. You could kill geese all day long with 2.75" shells and #7 shot.

41 posted on 01/06/2011 5:26:02 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: wendy1946

You said again and are wrong again. For a little help in correcting that condition I would counsel to buy and read “The Power of Gold: The History of an Obsession “

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Gold-History-Obsession/dp/0471252107

It can be obtained used for as little as $.55. It is very interesting history and provides detailed background on previous debacles that are caused by theories and rulers who try to or are forced to break the rules.

You will learn what has transpired throughout human history as gold repeatedly salvaged lost economies. Now is no different, only the circumstances of how the problem was created.


42 posted on 01/06/2011 5:45:05 AM PST by bert (K.E. N.P. N.C. D.E. +12 .....( History is a process, not an event ))
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To: wendy1946
Basing a monetary system on consumables (which is what goods and services are) is a recipe for disaster. Your washing machine is not a store of wealth, nor is your visit to the doctor.

Gold is a store of wealth (the labor needed to mine, refine, smelt) and not a consumable, but not necessarily the best basis for trade (portability and availability), which is what currency must also be. So we have our dollar, which is based on the future labor of the nation (also called debt, but that really isn't a true representation). Works pretty well.

43 posted on 01/06/2011 6:03:37 AM PST by ex 98C MI Dude (Alea Iacta Est)
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To: bert
as gold repeatedly salvaged lost economies.

Gold and gold standards have repeatedly destroyed economies.

...Goldbugs argue that there will always be enough gold in a gold-based money system to go around, because prices will naturally adjust downward so that supply matches demand.7 But this fundamental principle of the quantity theory of money has not worked well in practice. The drawbacks of limiting the medium of exchange to precious metals were obvious as soon as the Founding Fathers decided on a precious metal standard at the Constitutional Convention, when the money supply contracted so sharply that farmers rioted in the streets in Shay’s Rebellion. When the money supply contracted during the Great Depression, a vicious deflatio-nary spiral was initiated. Insufficient money to pay workers led to demand falling off, which led to more goods remaining unsold, which caused even more workers to get laid off. Fruit was left to rot in the fields, because it wasn’t economical to pick it and sell it....

Those kinds of contractions and destructions always occurred in cycles so long as money was based on gold. At some point too much gold or gold-based money would be lent out and bankers would call it all in again, collapsing the system as they did so. That speech of W. J. Bryant's was on the money; the gold standard was creating havoc in the late 1800s, and it would work a lot worse now.

44 posted on 01/06/2011 6:14:44 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: wendy1946
Money has to be based on something connected to reality

Gold is reality. Deal with it.

45 posted on 01/06/2011 6:18:58 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: wendy1946
You do realize you're quoting a Democrat don't you?

...Goldbugs argue that there will always be enough gold in a gold-based money system to go around

I've not heard that argument made. Can you give me some names and dates? Thanks.

The drawbacks of limiting the medium of exchange to precious metals were obvious as soon as the Founding Fathers decided on a precious metal standard at the Constitutional Convention,

Go dig up what George Washington had to say about paper money after the Revolution. You obviously haven't.

When the money supply contracted during the Great Depression,

Except that's not what happened during the GR. Go do some of your own research.

L

46 posted on 01/06/2011 6:23:10 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Lurker

Ben Franklin was called the father of paper money. Colonists, particularly in Pennsylvania, had created a super economy using script money and then George II crashed that economy into depression by banning script money. Or did you actually think anybody was going to fight a war over tea or some tax on tea??


47 posted on 01/06/2011 6:44:07 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: wendy1946

Looks like you got a lot of response to you post, but you haven’t answered your critics


48 posted on 01/06/2011 6:52:17 AM PST by dollarbull (why are paperbugs so bad at history?)
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To: Antonello

not necessarily


49 posted on 01/06/2011 6:53:26 AM PST by dollarbull (why are paperbugs so bad at history?)
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To: wendy1946
Ben Franklin was called the father of paper money.

Do some research, honey. All that paper money was backed by gold in banks.

Or did you actually think anybody was going to fight a war over tea or some tax on tea??

Whoever taught you History belongs in a prison cell for fraud.

L

50 posted on 01/06/2011 6:55:28 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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