Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The New Light Bulbs Lose a Little Shine (The "Greens" and Libs destroying America)
wall street journal ^ | 1/19/2011 | By REBECCA SMITH

Posted on 01/22/2011 8:06:33 AM PST by tobyhill

California's utilities are spending $548 million over seven years to subsidize consumer purchases of compact fluorescent lamps. But the benefits are turning out to be less than expected.

One reason is that bulbs have gotten so cheap that Californians buy more than they need and sock them away for future use. Another reason is that the bulbs are burning out faster than expected.

California's experience is notable because energy experts have placed high hopes on compact fluorescent lamps. Often spiral-shaped, they screw into existing light sockets and offer energy savings of about 75% over traditional incandescent light bulbs.

Many nations are relying on them to help cut emissions from power plants and stretch electricity supplies further. The United Nations says 8% of global greenhouse-gas emissions are linked to lighting, and that adoption of compact fluorescent lights could cut pollution.

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: cfl; cfls; fluorescentlamps
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-109 next last

1 posted on 01/22/2011 8:06:36 AM PST by tobyhill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: tobyhill

“Another reason is that the bulbs are burning out faster than expected. “

Poor construction and cheap materials employed by Chinese manufacturers

AND

Too many and too frequent on-off cycles versus design specs.


NET: wait for LEDs to mature, THEN convert from incandescents.


2 posted on 01/22/2011 8:09:22 AM PST by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill

Is anyone but me stockpiling regular light bulbs?


3 posted on 01/22/2011 8:09:25 AM PST by basil (It's time to rid the country of "Gun Free Zones" aka "Killing Fields")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill
We change lightbulbs to use electricity. Then we make cars which use a million times more electric..

Can you say "We're just plain stupid?"

4 posted on 01/22/2011 8:09:47 AM PST by Sacajaweau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: basil

Gotta save them for granddaughter’s Easy Bake Oven.


5 posted on 01/22/2011 8:10:07 AM PST by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill
The United Nations says..

So you know it's BS to start with.

6 posted on 01/22/2011 8:10:13 AM PST by maddog55 (OBAMA, You can't fix stupid...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill

Can anyone ell me if CFLs are available that emit natural spectrum, light?


7 posted on 01/22/2011 8:10:52 AM PST by nickcarraway
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill
Whoops...That would be

"We change lightbulbs to use LESS electricity".

8 posted on 01/22/2011 8:11:02 AM PST by Sacajaweau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: basil
Naw...I like the curly ones but then I've been drawing with flourescent light for 50 years.

It's also nice not changing the damn bulbs every time you turn around.

9 posted on 01/22/2011 8:13:19 AM PST by Sacajaweau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: basil

Doing likewise!


10 posted on 01/22/2011 8:13:56 AM PST by Citizen X_Area 51 (Obama: Our first Halfrican President)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill

Ahhh, the UN (that great scientific bastion of deep thought and research) ‘says’ that GW is due to round lightbulbs.

People will not buy the curly-fries ones because they are butt-ugly and they have mercury in them. And because it is SO important to the nanny-state that we do. Well, those are my reasons. NEVER and NEVER. Come and make me. I’ll go to whale blubber first, you Commies.

haha.


11 posted on 01/22/2011 8:15:29 AM PST by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blueflag
LED's are indeed the wave of the future and will make CFL's obsolete

I switched to CFL's three years ago and saved $15/month on my electricity bill. I kept the warranty info for the bulbs just in case they failed before their guaranteed lifetime. So far I've only lost one bulb, and that was due to a power surge.

12 posted on 01/22/2011 8:15:36 AM PST by LiveFree99
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill
From the state of Maine and read by Mark Steyn when subbing for Rush:

What if I accidentally break a fluorescent lamp in my home?

The lamp contains a small amount of mercury, but you can clean this up yourself if you do the following:

Do not use a vacuum cleaner to clean up the breakage. This will spread the mercury vapor and dust throughout the area and could potentially contaminate the vacuum.

Keep people and pets away from the breakage area until the cleanup is complete.

Ventilate the area by opening windows, and leave the area for 15 minutes before returning to begin the cleanup. Mercury vapor levels will be lower by then.

For maximum protection and if you have them, wear rubber gloves to protect your hands from the sharp glass.

Carefully remove the larger pieces and place them in a secure closed container, preferably a glass container with a metal screw top lid and seal like a canning jar.

A glass jar with a good seal works best to contain any mercury vapors inside.

Next, begin collecting the smaller pieces and dust. You can use two stiff pieces of paper such as index cards or playing cards to scoop up pieces.

Pat the area with the sticky side of duct tape, packing tape or masking tape to pick up fine particles. Wipe the area with a wet wipe or damp paper towel to pick up even finer particles.

Put all waste and materials into the glass container, including all material used in the cleanup that may have been contaminated with mercury. Label the container as “Universal Waste - broken lamp.”

Remove the container with the breakage and cleanup materials from your home. This is particularly important if you do not have a glass container.

Continue ventilating the room for several hours.

Wash your hands and face.

Take the glass container with the waste material to a facility that accepts “universal waste” for recycling. To determine where your municipality has made arrangements for recycling of this type of waste, call your municipal office or go to MaineDEP.com, click on “ Fluorescent Light Bulb Information ” and look for the link to municipal collection sites

When a break happens on carpeting, homeowners may consider removing throw rugs or the area of carpet where the breakage occurred as a precaution, particularly if the rug is in an area frequented by infants, small children or pregnant women.

Finally, if the carpet is not removed, open the window to the room during the next several times you vacuum the carpet to provide good ventilation.

Other jars that can be made of glass and also work are pickle, peanut butter and applesauce jars. Not ideal but also a good choice for containing breakage is a heavy duty #2 plastic container with either a screw lid or push-on lid such as a joint compound bucket or certain kitty litter-type containers.

The next time you replace a lamp, consider putting a drop cloth on the floor so that any accidental breakage can be easily cleaned up. If consumers remain concerned regarding safety, they may consider not utilizing fluorescent lamps in situations where they could easily be broken. Consumers may also consider avoiding CFL usage in bedrooms or carpeted areas frequented by infants, small children, or pregnant women. Finally, consider not storing too many used/spent lamps before recycling as that may increase your chances of breakage. Don’t forget to properly recycle your used fluorescent bulbs so they don’t break and put mercury into our environment.

If the only suitable jar available has food in it, you may need to empty it into another container before using it.....DUH...Ya' THINK so ???????

Jars, Rubber Gloves, Playing Cards, Bucket, Labels, Plastic Container, Duct Tape, Drop Cloth, Vacuum or Discard the Carpet, Ventilate, on and on and on............

NOW COMPARE THIS WITH THE SIMPLE ONE-STEP INCANDESCENT CLEANUP: PICK UP ALL THE PIECES AND THROW THEM AWAY !!!

This is but ONE example of how liberals are ruining America. The nanny state leads to more bureaucratic statism.

13 posted on 01/22/2011 8:16:29 AM PST by SERKIT ("Blazing Saddles" explains it all......)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: basil
I bought 100 40 watt light bulbs to replace the Compact fluorescent bulbs that have been burning out in less than 3 years.
14 posted on 01/22/2011 8:16:45 AM PST by tobyhill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill
adoption of compact fluorescent lights could cut pollution.

Sweep the methyl mercury issue under the rug.

15 posted on 01/22/2011 8:17:21 AM PST by existtoexcel
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: basil

Yes, I buy them as often as I can. Making political statements here in California right and left — I buy regular light bulbs, I ask for plastic bags (a big no-no if you are ‘earth-sensitive,’, I love In&Out (come and fine me, Michelle), etc.

Damn the Nanny Staters. Full speed ahead. Molon labe.


16 posted on 01/22/2011 8:17:24 AM PST by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway
Can anyone ell me if CFLs are available that emit natural spectrum, light?

I'd like to get me some that emit a supernatural spectrum. Incandescents are "warmer" because they directly emulate the sun's blackbody radiation. Fluorescents fluoresce, in a number of narrow spectral lines. You can put coating on the glass that broadened the spectrum somewhat, it ain't nothing like the real thing.

17 posted on 01/22/2011 8:18:54 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (Socialists are to economics what circle squarers are to math; undaunted by reason or derision.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: existtoexcel

Yep. Just toss them in the trash since they are burning out faster than advertised.


18 posted on 01/22/2011 8:19:45 AM PST by tobyhill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway
Can anyone ell me if CFLs are available that emit natural spectrum, light?

That would be No.

You need a filter for your camera lens to get a natural looking photograph under fluorescent light. Being just a unranked amateur don’t take what I say here as gospel. I do believe that they make a greenish tint to your pictures unfiltered.

I am sure some more schooled photographer will come along soon and correct and chastise me.

I think they also generate more ultraviolet light which damages fabrics.

19 posted on 01/22/2011 8:20:45 AM PST by Pontiac
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill

Saw phrases that pointed to “progressives”.

These were: “....experts...” and “...faster than expected...”

We must learn that there are no liberal experts - only liberal D students who have lots of self respect. (They don’t have Ds on their grade cards....but remember, no one gets less than a B now.)

Once you learn the above, you understand the “...faster than expected...” part.


20 posted on 01/22/2011 8:20:51 AM PST by Da Coyote
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill

Thank goodness the politicians know what’s best for us.


21 posted on 01/22/2011 8:21:45 AM PST by Brilliant
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SERKIT

I just throw them in the trash.


22 posted on 01/22/2011 8:21:51 AM PST by Clinging Bitterly (We need to limit political office holders to two terms. One in office, and one in prison.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Da Coyote

Now that they burn out “faster than expected”, our landfills will be full of Mercury “faster than expected”.


23 posted on 01/22/2011 8:23:59 AM PST by tobyhill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Brilliant

I heard yesterday that the EPA is going to replace E10 Ethanol with E15. The only industries that will grow from that is Subsidized Corn Growers and Mechanics.


24 posted on 01/22/2011 8:28:12 AM PST by tobyhill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Blueflag; All

Wait...then convert.

I converted 15 years ago, figure I have saved about $2,000 over those years. I have had an occasional batch that burned out sooner than I expected, but have mostly found they last a long time. Now they have two kinds of light soft and warm and cool and bluish.


25 posted on 01/22/2011 8:30:37 AM PST by gleeaikin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill

I noticed in the store the other day - the package of toxic twisties that claims that the bulbs will last for eight years in large type on the front has fine print on the back which makes only a 4 year claim.

And I also noticed that the expensive LEDs that hyped how little power that they used make it very hard to find out how little light they put out. I figure a lot of folks are going to buy one of those expensive gadgets, be highly disappointed, and write them off.


26 posted on 01/22/2011 8:31:50 AM PST by PAR35
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Sacajaweau

The curly lightbulbs do not fit in many of our lamps and light fixtures—plus I sure don’t want to have to call out hazmat if I happen to break one.—But mostly, I just don’t like being told what I have to buy, and since this global warming nonsense is a bunch of hooey anyway, I don’t worry about that.

I am also stockpiling plastic bags of all sizes and other things I have heard about that might be snatched away by our ever more-nannystate gummit.


27 posted on 01/22/2011 8:32:55 AM PST by basil (It's time to rid the country of "Gun Free Zones" aka "Killing Fields")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill

We have one cfl that has been in a lamp that is used every night for 13 yrs. It is the only one that has lasted. The rest in our house burn out in less than 1 yr usually.


28 posted on 01/22/2011 8:33:24 AM PST by sheana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill

Do folks see what many of us have been shouting to the rooftops about? These people are not “put on hold” nor stopped, nor defeated in the least. They continue to DICTATE how we should live every aspect of our lives. Their steamroller progresses unabated, crushing our (former) way of life.

For decades there has virtually been no push back of any magnitude against the green agenda, even today, large corporations continue to donate megabucks to their movement, including the petroleum industry. My guess is that they try to play nice-nice to stave off the inevitable, the destruction of their industry. So how’s that working out for you?? Notice the gas prices lately?

They run scared of these phony “scientist” who’s “science books” consists of slick magazines with beautiful photos with captions of lies and distortions, pushing their nihilistic agenda.

But the sheeple continue to nod their heads and follow the Pied Pipers of doom and gloom.


29 posted on 01/22/2011 8:33:34 AM PST by brushcop (CW4 Matthew Lourey CW2 Joshua Scott/ Kiowa pilots KIA Iraq '05. Thank you for our son's life.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill
I heard yesterday that the EPA is going to replace E10 Ethanol with E15.

Just starving a few more babies in Africa and Asia. But think of the money that Gore and Soros can make off of the change. What are a few dead babies when we can have welfare for billionaires?

30 posted on 01/22/2011 8:34:02 AM PST by PAR35
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: basil

I just purchased 150, 100 watt incandescent bulbs.


31 posted on 01/22/2011 8:36:01 AM PST by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway

Two options:

Select “Warm White” CFLs.

Try GE brand “Reveal” CFL.

The Reveal CFL is costly, and I haven’t tried it, but I’ve used incandescent Reveals for many years, with good results.


32 posted on 01/22/2011 8:36:01 AM PST by Stalwart
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Pontiac

So these lawmakers are threatening people’s mental health? Will you be able to get prescription from a doctor for natural light incandescents?


33 posted on 01/22/2011 8:40:20 AM PST by nickcarraway
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill

I use the most energy saving device there is, the off switch.


34 posted on 01/22/2011 8:42:02 AM PST by SouthTexas (Is it time for tea yet?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill
I think concerned citizens of California should band together in a joint EPA lawsuit over the disasterously potential harm that could be caused to the environment, public health and personal safety of children in California.

An enterprising coordinator (make that a conservative 'community organizer') can build a website, collect one dollar from California donators, and hire the biggest shyster class-action suit lawyer firm in the business. They can literally bring the state government and the federalis to their knees if they handle the case with these MERCURY BULB BOMBs properly.

35 posted on 01/22/2011 8:42:38 AM PST by Gaffer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill
I don't hate CFLs. What I hate is government mandates to use them. But I buy them when I find them (subsidized) for about $1 each. I'm also getting one “free” every time I buy a $5.99 Domino's pizza. The way I see it I am paying for them through my taxes and electric bill so I may as well.

It is true in my experience, they don't last the 5-7 years advertised. Now, if you buy new fixtures that are made for the more expensive and better quality plug in CFLs, those last a very long time. I could not get an incandescent or a curly CFL to last more than 6 months in my weather exposed front porch light. I replaced it with a CFL fixture (with adjustable light and motion sensor and tube, less than $20). It has been going without any problems for almost ten years.

36 posted on 01/22/2011 8:43:13 AM PST by Clinging Bitterly (We need to limit political office holders to two terms. One in office, and one in prison.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill
For those of you who don't want to save money and energy, stock up on all the incandescent light bulbs you want to. I don't think they should have been outlawed, but CFL’s are great. The mercury issue is a red herring.

“In 1901, an American inventor named Peter Cooper Hewitt developed the first successful fluorescent light bulb. His invention closely resembled the bulb as we know it today, with a sealed tube filled with low-pressure mercury.”
http://www.ehow.com/about_5089197_history-fluorescent-lighting.html

Regular fluorescent tubes, that we all live with have almost
TEN times the mercury of CFL’s. Have we been worried about the mercury from these bulbs? Has there been a procedure for cleaning up after breaking one of these?

Take a deep breath ...... Don't let the MSM or Gubmint get you in a tizzy. Check into EVERYTHING. They are LYING to you about EVERYTHING. You are being manipulated. CFLs are a good thing. Inc. bulbs are fine if you like them burning out every week and you like to waste money and energy. This is America. You can make poor decisions if you want to.

37 posted on 01/22/2011 8:43:39 AM PST by faucetman (Just the facts ma'am, just the facts)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: basil
Is anyone but me stockpiling regular light bulbs?

I was, but they were all destroyed in a cabinet collapse. An accident not unlike how the guns of many FReepers sadly fall into lakes on boating trips.

(We will soon have to couch our words in this manner when the Green Police turn incandescent users into criminals)
38 posted on 01/22/2011 8:46:56 AM PST by LostInBayport (When there are more people riding in the cart than there are pulling it, the cart stops moving...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: SERKIT

What happens in the event of a major catastrophe, earthquake etc., when these bulbs are in shards all over the place?


39 posted on 01/22/2011 8:48:02 AM PST by surrey
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: basil

“Is anyone but me stockpiling regular light bulbs?”

You can get incandescent light bulbs rated for 25,000 hours that are used by the hospitality industry. If you use them for an average of 7 hours a day they’ll burn out in just a little under 10 years and cost about a buck or less per bulb depending on how many you buy.

https://www.nathosp.com/product/25k19_c/standard_incandescent_light_bulbs

Once you stock up all you’ll have to do is watch out for the light bulb police who’ll be monitoring everyone who might be using those unauthorized, evil incandescents!


40 posted on 01/22/2011 8:48:41 AM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: basil
Is anyone but me stockpiling regular light bulbs?

I bought another $100 worth last week at Lowe's.

41 posted on 01/22/2011 8:49:41 AM PST by thethirddegree
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: faucetman
I don't care if CFLs are sold and I really don't care how much Mercury are in either one of them, my problem is the Government forcing us on what to buy.
42 posted on 01/22/2011 8:51:50 AM PST by tobyhill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill

Besides putting out light, incandescents also put out heat,
which can make a bit of a difference when you live in the northeast during the winter months.
LED’s are a great light source and don’t have the potential safety problems associated with CFL’s.The only drawback to LED’s is that like CFL’s, they don’t produce much heat,which has caused some problems with outdoor applications such as traffic signals fitted with LED’s.
Snow and ice won’t melt like they do with incand. so the signal lights have to be re-fitted with heating elements to keep them from freezing.


43 posted on 01/22/2011 8:54:06 AM PST by markoman (The man with the rubber glove was....surprisingly gentle.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: basil

I’m stockpiling, too....M O N E Y


44 posted on 01/22/2011 8:55:34 AM PST by Sacajaweau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway
Can anyone ell me if CFLs are available that emit natural spectrum, light?

CFLs are available with different color temperatures, e.g., daylight vs tungsten. Tungsten (2800° K) is intended to match traditional incandescent lighting, whereas daylight (5000° K) is closer to natural light or regular fluorescent lighting.

But there is another problem with CFLs: Unlike the smooth approximate black-body spectrum of an incandescent lamp, their spectrum is peaky. Here's a chart from the Wikipedia comparing the spectra of examples of the two types of lighting:

That's why, even a CFL of the proper nominal color temperature cannot properly replace an incandescent.

45 posted on 01/22/2011 8:55:55 AM PST by cynwoody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway
You can buy CFL’s that more closely mimic sun light but they are more expensive just like incandescent lights that mimic the solar spectrum.

If there is a health risk to CFL’s I would put it on the flicker that can give people headaches or even epileptic events.

CFL’s do not flicker as much as they used to but it is still happens.

46 posted on 01/22/2011 8:56:51 AM PST by Pontiac
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: thethirddegree

Same here at Home Depot.
What happens in the event of a major disaster,earthquake etc, when these bulbs are in shards all over the place?


47 posted on 01/22/2011 8:57:04 AM PST by surrey
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Clinging Bitterly
I just throw them in the trash

Why not just return them to your Congressman's office? They are the idiots that created the problem--let them dispose of it.

48 posted on 01/22/2011 8:59:25 AM PST by thethirddegree
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Blueflag
CFL have served me well ONLY if left on continuously.

In normal "turn out the light when you leave the room" service they are expensive and short-lived.And most create a buzz in the radios nearby.

On-off cycles are very hard on all types of lighting even LED.I've had several LED lights fail after only a year or two.The intial current surge when turned on is what usually kills electrical/electronic items.

It makes good economic sense to use lights only where and when needed,that the lighting fixtures direct the light where it does the most good.

Do we really need millions of high wattage lamps beaming light into the sky and drivers eyes ?,or would some bettter design save electric ?

And for the home and many other uses the old cheap incandescent is easily replaced and proven design.

49 posted on 01/22/2011 9:01:48 AM PST by hoosierham (Waddaya mean Freedom isn't free ?;will you take a credit card?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: tobyhill
When PG&E began its 2006-2008 program, it figured the useful life of each bulb would be 9.4 years. Now, with experience, it has cut the estimate to 6.3 years, which limits the energy savings. Turning them on and off a lot also appears to impair longevity.
Electronic parts essentially have a failure rate that is astronomical.
It's that pesky "turning them on and off" that wrecks havoc with the reliability.
50 posted on 01/22/2011 9:05:35 AM PST by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-109 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson