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Baby Josephĺs lawyer dropped from case: prayer vigils planned
LifeSiteNews ^ | 3/1/11 | Patrick B. Craine

Posted on 03/01/2011 3:57:34 PM PST by wagglebee

To join a Facebook page in support of the parents of Joseph Maraachli, click here.

LONDON, Ontario, March 1, 2011 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The expert lawyer representing dying one-year-old Joseph Maraachli, whose hospital is seeking to remove his ventilator against his parents’ wishes, was removed from the case today.

Mark Handelman, who the family hired with the financial backing of the Euthanasia Prevention Coalition, had been negotiating with the hospital, and was successful in having the hospital delay removing the ventilator.  It is unclear at this point what effect Handelman’s removal will have on Joseph’s cause.  LifeSiteNews was unsuccessful in reaching Joseph’s parents as of press time.

Joseph Maraachli

At the same time, the Washington-based Christian Defense Coalition announced Tuesday that they and the Terri Schiavo Life and Hope Network are holding two prayer gatherings in London, Ontario this weekend for Joseph,

The prayer and public witness events will be on Saturday, March 5, from 12:00-2:00 p.m. and Sunday, March 6, from 1:00-3:00 p.m. in front of the London Health Sciences Centre’s Children’s Hospital.  They will be held on the corner of Wellington and Commissioners Rd.

There will also be a rally in support of Joseph’s family on Saturday from 4:00-6:00 p.m.  Location to be announced.

Rev. Patrick J. Mahoney, director of the Christian Defense Coalition, traveled to Canada last week with Bobby Schindler, brother of Terri Schiavo.  The two met and prayed with the family, pledged their support, and sought to connect them to legal assistance and to help to locate a hospital for Joseph in America.

“We are gathering for prayer and public witness as we stand in solidarity with Baby Joseph and his family,” said Rev. Mahoney.  “We will not be silent when it comes to this tragic crushing of human rights. ... We must always speak out with passion and courage when we see the dignity of human life trampled.”

“We support the family as the ones who should be making the final decision on how to best deal with this beautiful child,” he added.  “The courts and the hospital have completely disregarded the wishes of the family and are crushing their parental rights.”

Joseph suffers from a severe neurological disorder, but his specific condition remains undiagnosed.  Doctors have given him no chance of recovery, so his parents, Moe Maraachli and Sana Nader, have asked them to perform a tracheostomy which would enable him to breathe on his own, so that they could take him home.  Their daughter died from similar complications eight years ago, but in that case doctors performed a tracheostomy and they were able to take her home.

The hospital said Monday that they are willing to send Joseph home, but will not perform the tracheostomy. Instead, once he’s home, they would remove his ventilator, after which he will almost certainly die within a matter of minutes.  It is unclear at this point how the family will respond to the offer.

Dr. Paul Byrne, a fifty-year veteran in the field of neonatology, told LifeSiteNews Monday that in his opinion Joseph should have had a tracheostomy “a long time ago.”  He also insisted that he has never seen a need to remove a child’s ventilator, saying that “if a baby has a disease process that’s so bad that they’re going to die, then they die on the ventilator anyway.”

The hospital had appeared set to remove Joseph’s ventilator last Monday, but was delayed when Handelman made clear to the family that they could refuse.  The hospital’s move came after a February 17th decision from Ontario Superior Court Justice Helen Rady upholding a January verdict from the Consent and Capacity Board of Ontario, which had supported the doctors’ move to take Joseph off life support against his parents’ wishes.

Justice Rady’s decision was based on doctors’ testimony that he is in a permanent vegetative state with no brain stem reflex.  But the family says that footage released Thursday by LifeSiteNews belies the doctors’ claim.  The videos, taken just over a week ago, show him flailing and reacting to tickling.  They also show that his hands have been tied down - a measure the hospital took after Joseph removed the tube from his throat on at least two separate occasions.

The hospital is now asking Ontario’s Office of the Public Guardian to intervene and allow them to take Joseph off his ventilator, after the parents have continued to refuse consent.  That office has been unsuccessful in asking other family members to consent instead, and could intervene itself any day.

In the last week, the case has drawn attention from major pro-life and anti-euthanasia groups in the U.S. who hope to find a hospital willing to take over Joseph’s care.  Fr. Frank Pavone, national director of the U.S.-based Priests for Life, has pledged to pay for Joseph to be moved to a hospital in the U.S.

Alex Schadenberg, executive director of the Euthanasia Prevention Coalition, has warned that the court decision facilitates a system where doctors are authorized to force life and death decisions on patients.  He has said he believes it is far worse than the “death panels” recently debated in the U.S. as part of the federal health care law.

“It’s the hospitals and the doctors once again usurping their power over the people,” he said.  “That’s what’s happening.  And they have significant power - they have the money and the courts behind them.  It’s absolutely ridiculous.”

Over 13,000 people have rallied behind the parents through the Facebook page “Save baby Joseph”.

To join a Facebook page in support of the parents of Joseph Maraachli, click here.


Contact Information:

Bonnie Adamson
President and CEO, London Health Sciences Centre
800 Commissioners Road East
London, Ontario Canada N6A 5W9
Phone: 519-685-8462
E-mail: bonnie.adamson@lhsc.on.ca

Dalton McGuinty, Premier
Legislative Building
Queen’s Park
Toronto ON M7A 1A1
Fax: (416) 325-3745
E-mail: Use this form.

Tim Hudak, Opposition Leader
The Ontario PC Party
19 Duncan Street
Suite 401
Toronto, ON M5H 3H1
Phone: 416-861-0020
Toll-free: 1-800-903-6453
Fax: 416-861-9593
Email: tim.hudakco@pc.ola.org



TOPICS: Canada; Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: euthanasia; josephmaraachli; moralabsolutes; prolife
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-111 next last
To: kaila; wagglebee
This baby has no brain function.

I am a doctor, and I know how to read reports by medical boards, and I just read this entire report. No where in the report does it state there is no brain function. On the contrary, it skirts around that issue consistently and deliberately, asserting instead that there is diminished brain function and brain mass and that there is a persistent vegetative state, an ill defined concept that covers a wide range of conditions:

He indicated that the MRIs and EEGs confirmed that there was a significant loss of neuronal content in JM's brain...

Dr. L concluded his report by saying that there was “severe diffuse neurological damage.”

...Dr. P said that JM “remains severely impaired-as in a vegetative state.”

Notice how the board refused the parents the opportunity to PROVE their child can interact with them?

Ought the Board view the patient, JM, interact with his parents?

In Mr. S's written submissions on behalf of the parents, he referred to the case of EJG, 2007 CanLII 44704 (ON C.C.B.), 2007 CanLII 44704 (ON C.C.B.). He submitted that the Board ought to see the child, JM, interact with his parents “following the procedure set out in page 3 of the EJG decision.” While the Board viewed the patient in EJG, there was no precedent set nor was there any requirement that the Board view JM during the hearing of the evidence in this matter.

In replies to the submissions of the parties, both Ms ZB, on behalf of Dr. F and Ms E, on behalf of the patient JM, rejected Mr. S's submission.

Ms ZB, in her reply, said such a viewing ought not to be done after the evidentiary portion of the hearing was concluded. She submitted that neither JM's counsel, nor counsel for JM's parents, suggested this evidence be included at the time that evidence was being heard. She said that Dr. F relied on Rule 29.1 of the Consent and Capacity Board Rules of Practice that no new evidence may be presented during final argument.

Ms E made a similar argument in her reply.

Section 29.1, as referred to above states: “After all of the parties have had an opportunity to present evidence, the Board shall give all parties an opportunity to make a final argument in support of the decision or order they want the Board to make. No new evidence may be presented during final argument.” We agreed with Ms ZB and Ms E that viewing the child with the parents ought not to be done. Even if we decided incorrectly that new evidence should not be introduced, it was our view that seeing JM was not relevant and/or necessary to our decision.

Here's the bottom line, from your link:

JM's MRI is, in fact, remarkably similar to his deceased sister ZM.

...Dr. F discussed the condition of ZM, the sister of JM, who died in infancy after a prolonged stay at LHSC. He said that her MRI and MRS were remarkably similar to those completed on JM. He said that Dr. S was involved in ZM's case and that the doctors reluctantly agreed to give her a tracheostomy and send her home.

And that is what should be done now also. Nothing has changed, be it the neurological condition or the best treatment. The ethics of the situation have not changed from his sister's case till now.

The only thing that has changed is that a totalitarian health care system thinks that citizens have no rights and are the property of the state, that parents have no rights to direct health care decisions for their children, and that big brother gets to decide, not God, on when the subjects it owns get to live or die.

And you support big brother in this regard.

51 posted on 03/02/2011 5:43:17 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; trisham; BykrBayb; RnMomof7
Excellent post!
52 posted on 03/02/2011 5:46:03 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: kaila
Then why do the trach when the baby will die with only the trach?

The child cannot swallow his own secretions, and cannot breathe on his own because of that.

If they do a trach, he will be able to breathe on his own, just like his sister did for 6 months, without a vent. The parents will probably need suction to keep the trach clear, but they will not need a vent.

Please, read the medical report you posted, read the facts about his sister's case, and stop making assertions that are not supported by the evidence at hand.

53 posted on 03/02/2011 5:52:20 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: wagglebee; Dr. Brian Kopp

Yes, that is an excellent post. Thanks Doc!


54 posted on 03/02/2011 5:53:58 PM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ ├×)
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To: wagglebee; BykrBayb
Notice how consistent this case is with Schiavo's?

Terri's husband refused to permit a test to ascertain whether Terri could actually swallow.

The medical board refuses to let the parents prove the child can interact, because it would destroy their claims of diminished brain function.

(Notice they're not craven enough to claim no brain function, unlike the euthanasia apologist on this thread, because it is so easily disproven?)

55 posted on 03/02/2011 5:59:37 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: kaila

It’s not complicated. When you see someone moving around on their own, they aren’t dead. A body that has no brain function at all is dead. If a person is moving on their own, that means they are alive. If they are alive, there is some brain function. The mythical world in which zombies move around at will, even though they’re dead, is pure fiction. It’s quite possible for a person’s brain function to be below the threshold deemed by the death mongers to qualify them for the rights of personhood, but someone like you should be careful about that.


56 posted on 03/02/2011 6:02:14 PM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ ├×)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

They can’t afford for the truth to get out. Cognitively disabled patients are routinely killed. The added expense of allowing them to live until natural death is almost incalculable.


57 posted on 03/02/2011 6:08:38 PM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ ├×)
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To: kaila
The sister probably did not lose her breathing reflex. Probably was not on a ventilator. This baby is further along the process.

From your link:

JM's MRI is, in fact, remarkably similar to his deceased sister ZM.

...Dr. F discussed the condition of ZM, the sister of JM, who died in infancy after a prolonged stay at LHSC. He said that her MRI and MRS were remarkably similar to those completed on JM. He said that Dr. S was involved in ZM's case and that the doctors reluctantly agreed to give her a tracheostomy and send her home.

Care to retract that obviously erroneous assertion? Or haven't you read the report you linked yet?
58 posted on 03/02/2011 6:19:53 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

I give up.
All of you are delusional.
You have no idea of what you are talking about- I do.
I have been there.
Maybe this is why the world is so screwed up.
Goodnight. Good luck in all your life.
You all need it.


59 posted on 03/02/2011 9:51:03 PM PST by kaila
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To: kaila; Dr. Brian Kopp; BykrBayb; trisham
I give up.

All of you are delusional.

You have no idea of what you are talking about- I do.

I have been there.

Maybe this is why the world is so screwed up.

Goodnight. Good luck in all your life.

You all need it.

Pathetic.

You say you give up? Good. EVERYONE who believes as you do should give up and allow those who actually care about human life to care for the sick and disabled.

As for your assertion that we have no idea what we are talking about, Brian showed you from THE ACTUAL REPORT that it is YOU who are making assertions that are patently FALSE.

60 posted on 03/03/2011 5:28:39 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: kaila
I have been there.

Should we act surprised? It always comes down to that, doesn't it? Whenever we see someone pushing euthanasia of disabled people, it always turns out they've been there themselves, and always made the same "choice." And they always assume that anyone who hasn't chosen to kill a disabled person was never given that opportunity. Well, you ass-u-me the wrong thing. Not everyone is greedy, blood-thirsty and heartless.

61 posted on 03/03/2011 5:36:59 AM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ ├×)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Thanks for your invaluable contributions to this thread, Dr. K.


62 posted on 03/03/2011 5:58:13 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; wagglebee; BykrBayb
Notice how consistent this case is with Schiavo's?

*****************************

Yes. It's eerie.

63 posted on 03/03/2011 5:59:54 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: wagglebee; kaila; Dr. Brian Kopp; BykrBayb
You say you give up? Good. EVERYONE who believes as you do should give up and allow those who actually care about human life to care for the sick and disabled.

******************************************

I could not agree more!

64 posted on 03/03/2011 6:04:43 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: kaila
I don't think you are delusional, you're simply wrong. I looked back through your posting history, and you are obsessed with other people spending government money. Your obsession with preventing other people from spending tax dollars has blinded you to the medical ethics issues of this case. But I wouldn't call you delusional just because you disagree with my personal opinion.

To do so would be ... delusional.

Good day to you, nurse.

65 posted on 03/03/2011 7:02:38 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: kaila; trisham; wagglebee; BykrBayb
All of you are delusional.

You have no idea of what you are talking about- I do.

EXCLUSIVE: Videos show ‘vegetable’ Baby Joseph reacting to parents
by Patrick B. Craine
Thu Feb 24, 2011

LONDON, Ontario, February 24, 2011 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Dying one-year-old Joseph Maraachli’s family says two new videos of him flailing and reacting to tickling belie his hospital’s claim that he is in a permanent vegetative state.

The video of Joseph being tickled, which was shot Sunday evening only hours before the hospital had planned to remove his life support, also shows Joseph’s hands tied down - a measure the hospital took after Joseph removed the tube from his throat on at least two separate occasions.

“How can a baby be in a vegetative state who has his hands tied - as we speak - for him to not pull out his tube?” asked Joseph’s aunt, Samar Nader.  “How does a baby in a vegetative state respond to combing or tickling?”

“What really boggles my mind is how we’re not allowed to videotape him or have media outlets watching him to show the public what he’s like,” she added.  “That’s very frustrating.”

The family took Victoria Hospital in London to court last week to prevent them from removing his life support against their wishes, but Ontario Superior Court Justice Helen Rady sided with the hospital.  Her decision was based on doctors’ testimony that he is in a permanent vegetative state with no brain stem reflex.

But family members question the doctors’ judgment, saying Joseph is fully responsive to touch, particularly that he hates being touched by cold hands, tickles easily, and moves his head when his hair is brushed.  They also say he responds to loud noises by turning his head toward the sound.

Sam Sansalone, a spokesman for the family, says the fact that the hospital has had to tie his hands down shows “how absurd” the claim is that Joseph is in a vegetative state. 

“How could a supposedly persistent vegetative state child have so many occasions of purposeful neuromuscular movements of yanking out their uncomfortable air tube, so many times that hospital staff would have to tie his hands to prevent further episodes?” he asked.

Sansalone also says that hospital staff failed to note the tube removals in his chart.

Joseph suffers from a severe neurological disorder, but his specific condition remains undiagnosed.  Doctors have given him no chance of recovery, so his parents, Moe Maraachli and Sana Nader, have asked them to perform a tracheotomy which would enable him to breathe on his own, so that they could take him home.  The doctors have refused, saying the procedure is too risky.

Their daughter died from similar complications eight years ago, but in that case doctors performed a tracheotomy and they were able to take her home.

In January, the Consent and Capacity Board of Ontario sided with the hospital, a decision backed up by Justice Rady last Thursday.  The hospital appeared set to remove Joseph’s life support on Monday at 10 a.m., but that got delayed when the family hired expert lawyer Mark Handelman over the weekend with the financial support of the Euthanasia Prevention Coalition.

To make a donation to cover the legal costs please click here.

The family has been trying to have Joseph transferred to a hospital in the U.S., where they believe he’ll get better care or at least a reassessment, and possibly the tracheotomy they need to bring him home. 

The family has expressed concerns that hospital security is following them around and denying them private visitations with Joseph.

On Tuesday, Children’s Hospital of Michigan in Detroit, where the family had hoped to have Joseph transferred, refused to take him despite previous assurances that they would.  The family says, however, that they are far from out of options.

The clock is ticking for the family as Joseph’s current hospital has asked Ontario’s Office of the Public Guardian to assume decision-making power after the family refused to have Joseph’s life support removed on Monday.  The public guardian could order it removed at any point.

Alex Schadenberg, executive director of the Euthanasia Prevention Coalition, warned in a Fox news interview that the court decision facilitates a system where doctors are authorized to force life and death decisions on patients.  He has said he believes it is far worse than the “death panels” recently debated in the U.S. as part of the federal health care law.

He emphasized to LifeSiteNews last week that the family isn’t pushing for extraordinary treatment, just asking to care for their dying child at home.  “They’re arguing that the best way to do that is by doing a tracheotomy so the child can somewhat breathe on his own and care for him while he’s dying,” he explained.

“It’s the hospitals and the doctors once again usurping their power over the people,” he said.  “That’s what’s happening.  And they have significant power - they have the money and the courts behind them.  It’s absolutely ridiculous.”

Over 9,000 people have rallied behind the parents through the Facebook page “Save baby Joseph”.

66 posted on 03/03/2011 7:28:13 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; trisham; BykrBayb
There were plenty of videos of Terri too, it didn't matter to those who are determined to kill her.
67 posted on 03/03/2011 7:31:12 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; trisham; wagglebee

They didn’t even care when she screamed “I WANT....” They said she might have been trying to say “I want to die.” If she was saying “I want to die” that negates their claim that she was unable to speak. But they used their claim that she might have been trying to say she wanted to die as justification for killing her.


68 posted on 03/03/2011 7:39:07 AM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ ├×)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; trisham; BykrBayb
I think that an Ayn Rand mindset has overtaken the thoughts of people who would be good conservatives.

Not everything is about money and this case certainly isn't.

The cost of a tracheotomy is a couple thousand dollars at most; my father-in-law does them all the time, it's one of the oldest surgical procedures in the world and really not a big deal. If the ONLY THING this hospital cares about is the cost of the tracheotomy, I'll be happy to give them a credit card number over the phone and pay for the whole thing right now.

If Father Pavone says that he is willing to pay for Baby Joseph to be moved to a hospital in the US, that means he has the necessary funds to do it.

My suspicion with this case is that it is just like so many other pro-life cases, the culture of death is using money as a red herring to mask their true agenda.

69 posted on 03/03/2011 7:39:30 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Objectivism is a philosophy defined by the Russian-American philosopher and novelist Ayn Rand (1905–1982). Objectivism holds that reality exists independent of consciousness, that human beings have direct contact with reality through sense perception, that one can attain objective knowledge from perception through the process of concept formation and inductive and deductive logic, that the proper moral purpose of one’s life is the pursuit of one’s own happiness or rational self-interest, that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual rights, embodied in laissez faire capitalism, and that the role of art in human life is to transform man’s widest metaphysical ideas, by selective reproduction of reality, into a physical form—a work of art—that he can comprehend and to which he can respond emotionally.
Rand originally expressed her philosophical ideas in her novels The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, and other works. She further elaborated on them in her magazines The Objectivist Newsletter, The Objectivist, and The Ayn Rand Letter, and in non-fiction books such as Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology and The Virtue of Selfishness.[1]
The name “Objectivism” derives from the principle that human knowledge and values are objective: they are not created by the thoughts one has, but are determined by the nature of reality, to be discovered by man’s mind.[2] Rand stated that she chose the name because her preferred term for a philosophy based on the primacy of existence—”existentialism”—had already been taken.[3]


70 posted on 03/03/2011 7:55:22 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: wagglebee; Dr. Brian Kopp; BykrBayb

More from Wikipedia:

Ethics: rational self-interest
See also: Objectivist theory of value
Rand defines morality as “a code of values to guide man’s choices and actions—the choices and actions that determine the purpose and the course of his life.”[42] Rand maintained that the first question isn’t what should the code of values be, the first question is “Does man need values at all—and why?”
According to Rand, “it is only the concept of ‘Life’ that makes the concept of ‘Value’ possible,” and, “the fact that a living entity is, determines what it ought to do.”.[43] Rand writes: “there is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or non-existence—and it pertains to a single class of entities: to living organisms. The existence of inanimate matter is unconditional, the existence of life is not: it depends on a specific course of action... It is only a living organism that faces a constant alternative: the issue of life or death...” The survival of the organism is the ultimate value to which all of the organism’s activities are aimed, the end served by all of its lesser values.


71 posted on 03/03/2011 8:01:53 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham; Dr. Brian Kopp; BykrBayb

I think Whittaker Chambers did the best job at exposing Ayn Rand:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/222482/big-sister-watching-you/flashback

There is a tendency to lump objectivists and libertarians with conservatives, the reality is that they are very dangerous to conservatism.


72 posted on 03/03/2011 8:42:23 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

Thanks for that. I read both books in high school, and they left me cold.


73 posted on 03/03/2011 9:09:17 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

If I want to have my bunions removed, I will see someone like you- a podiatrist.
A podiatrist is not an MD.
The day you are in a pediatric ICU dealing with children like these as an intensivist, neurologist,or a pulmonologist- then I will listen to your opinion.
Otherwise, listen to the experts on this case.
You are not an expert. I listen to the experts on issues like this.


74 posted on 03/03/2011 7:54:31 PM PST by kaila
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Managing a babies airway is a whole different ball of wax than managing a child’s airway.


75 posted on 03/03/2011 8:14:41 PM PST by kaila
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To: wagglebee

The lawyer’s removal might just be a strategic move by the family, with the lawyer. The hospital might not be able to ‘move’ against the family unless they are represented by competent counsel. So, they take another month or so to line up a replacement lawyer, extending Baby Joseph’s life, while other options, i.e., to move him out of the country, are explored and gotten into a position to act upon. I hope that’s what’s going on.


76 posted on 03/03/2011 8:18:55 PM PST by EDINVA
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

“I looked back through your posting history, and you are obsessed with other people spending government money. Your obsession with preventing other people from spending tax dollars has blinded you to the medical ethics issues of this case.”

If you are a true Freeper, it is not the governments money, it is our money paid through our blood and sweat via taxation.
I do not want to see it wasted in futility.
If the Catholics want to pay for it, go for it.The American healthcare system should not pay for this.
Plan on a couple of hundred thousand. Write the checks if you mean it.
However, there are lots of Mexican children who need American healthcare, but somehow you are all resistent to paying for healthcare for illegals.
Somehow, this does not compute.


77 posted on 03/03/2011 8:23:22 PM PST by kaila
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To: kaila; Dr. Brian Kopp; trisham; BykrBayb
The day you are in a pediatric ICU dealing with children like these as an intensivist, neurologist,or a pulmonologist- then I will listen to your opinion.

My father-in-law is a pulmonologist, he's been practicing for over 40 years and he's been listed in multiple publications as one of the top pulmonologists in the nation and has received extensive recognition from his peers.

I asked him about this and he agrees with Brian.

I notice that you have yet to address my question from the other night about assisted suicide in Washington state (saying that you didn't vote in that election is a cop-out, not an answer). Do you support assisted suicide in your state? YES or NO.

78 posted on 03/04/2011 5:30:46 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: EDINVA
You may have a point, I hope so anyway.
79 posted on 03/04/2011 5:32:22 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: kaila

Why would you want us to euthanize Americans to pay the bills of illegal aliens?


80 posted on 03/04/2011 5:44:32 AM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ ├×)
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To: wagglebee

no.
However,this is not assisted suicide, the baby is already dead.
You can blow air into a corpse via a ventilator for a long time.
The person looks alive as the ventilator is blowing air into him, but the patient is dead.

He has occasional spontaneous eyelid opening and movements of his lower extremities. His pupils do

not react to light and he has neither visual fixation nor following. His brainstem reflexes are

either abnormal or absent. He exhibits limb withdrawal to pain, but no purposeful response to

pain. He demonstrates facial grimacing with secretions and stimulation (i.e. suctioning,

repositioning, changing diaper). In summary, his neurological examination remains grossly

abnormal and the clinical findings reflect a severe and widespread neurological injury. JM has

failed removal of the breathing tube previously requiring replacement (November 8-11, 2010).

He remains on a ventilator with a background rate. Many attempts have been made to allow

him to breathe spontaneously on the ventilator; however, within short periods of time, the

ventilator reverts to a backup rate due to prolonged periods without breaths.”

Why dont you show your pulmonologist father in law this report?


81 posted on 03/04/2011 5:56:25 AM PST by kaila
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To: BykrBayb
This baby is not American.
This is not euthanasia it is letting a dead baby off the ventilator, and avoiding unneccasry surgery.
82 posted on 03/04/2011 5:58:48 AM PST by kaila
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To: kaila; Dr. Brian Kopp; trisham; BykrBayb
However,this is not assisted suicide, the baby is already dead.

You are basing this on nothing more than your opinion, it IS NOT based on ANYTHING in the report you posted.

Why dont you show your pulmonologist father in law this report?

I did, he's of the opinion that Baby Joseph may very well die within a few months, but that he can live without the ventilator as long as he has the tracheotomy.

83 posted on 03/04/2011 6:04:10 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: kaila

You’re in the wrong profession. Have you ever considered becoming a mortician?


84 posted on 03/04/2011 6:05:20 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: kaila

Is this the only baby you take this position on, or would you hold the position in regards to American babies?

Show me the death certificate. You can’t, because you’re lying. This is not a dead baby. He is alive. You’re advocating killing him.

You used the argument that illegal aliens are entitled to have all of their health care paid for by Americans at the expense of the lives of Americans. I just want to know how you can justify such an opinion.


85 posted on 03/04/2011 6:06:16 AM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ ├×)
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To: kaila

You lost the debate, so now you’re lashing out. That’s not surprising, nurse.


86 posted on 03/04/2011 6:16:59 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: kaila; Dr. Brian Kopp; trisham; BykrBayb
This baby is not American.

What does Baby Joseph's nationality have to do with ANYTHING?

NOBODY is suggesting that the American taxpayers pay for his care, NOBODY.

YOU are trying to make this about money and in my experience this is almost always done to divert attention from the culture of death's actual agenda.

If you want me to quit comparing you to the culture of death quit repeating their talking points; until then, deal with it.

This person suffering from hereditary defects
costs the people 60,000 Reichmarks during his lifetime.
People, that is your money. Read ‘New People’.

87 posted on 03/04/2011 6:17:27 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: kaila
However,this is not assisted suicide, the baby is already dead.

You can blow air into a corpse via a ventilator for a long time.

The person looks alive as the ventilator is blowing air into him, but the patient is dead.

This is just propaganda, and quite a poor attempt at that, Nurse Mengele. If you truly believe this, I truly feel sorry for you.

88 posted on 03/04/2011 6:20:01 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: BykrBayb

“”You used the argument that illegal aliens are entitled to have all of their health care paid for by Americans at the expense of the lives of Americans. I just want to know how you can justify such an opinion.”

No, I was using that as an example. People want to bring this baby to an American hospital. I am against that. It is the same as bringing in illegals to take advantage of our healthcare. I am against that, too.
The people who want this baby transported here do not see the difference. On one hand, they are against illegals using our healthcare. On the other hand, they want to bring this child here. It does not compute.

This decision on American babies and adults happens everyday in hospitals.We cannot keep dead people alive on ventilators, it would bankrupt this country even further.

This child cannot be declared dead until they remove him from the ventilator.He would then stop breathing.You can keep a dead person alive on a ventilator. Take for instance organ donors. They are dead, but on a ventilator until donation surgery.So there is no death certificate yet.


89 posted on 03/04/2011 6:27:41 AM PST by kaila
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To: kaila
somehow you are all resistent to paying for healthcare for illegals.

Actually, I treat illegal aliens on a regular basis, and I only charge them what they can afford.

I think you're projecting your own bias on us.

90 posted on 03/04/2011 6:35:18 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

You lost the debate, so now you’re lashing out. That’s not surprising, nurse

No, you all lost the debate.
Do you all realize how ridiculous your arguments are?
I know medical people, and they agree with me on this case.
Quite a few of posts on this subject here have been full of inaccuracies, that somehow a trach will make this baby better.
I do not post much on FR, but I am a monthly donor.
However, when I see posts that are just out of whack, I tend to debate on them.


91 posted on 03/04/2011 6:38:27 AM PST by kaila
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Actually, I treat illegal aliens on a regular basis, and I only charge them what they can afford.

Wow, I did not know podiatrists took ER call.
If you actually walked into an ER, you would see them there, on American taxpayer dollars paying for their treatment.
You are insulated from that.


92 posted on 03/04/2011 6:43:13 AM PST by kaila
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To: kaila; BykrBayb; Dr. Brian Kopp; trisham; DJ MacWoW; little jeremiah; NYer; Coleus; narses; ...
People want to bring this baby to an American hospital. I am against that. It is the same as bringing in illegals to take advantage of our healthcare. I am against that, too.

NOBODY is asking for American taxpayers to pay for Baby Joseph's care. You have offered ZERO PROOF of your claim and you are doing it to divert attention from the real issue.

Canadians who are sick of the Canadian health care system come to America and pay for medical care EVERY DAY. There no similarity between this and illegals using ERs for free.

The people who want this baby transported here do not see the difference. On one hand, they are against illegals using our healthcare. On the other hand, they want to bring this child here. It does not compute.

No, it is YOU who doesn't see the difference. There are NO LAWS against people from any country coming to America and paying for health care out of their own pockets and I've never seen ANYONE suggest that they shouldn't be allowed to.

YOU are making money an issue where it isn't.

This decision on American babies and adults happens everyday in hospitals.We cannot keep dead people alive on ventilators, it would bankrupt this country even further.

Unless you can provide documentation that the American taxpayers would be asked to pay for Baby Joseph's care, your statement is meaningless.

This child cannot be declared dead until they remove him from the ventilator.He would then stop breathing.

NOWHERE in the medical report you posted does it make this claim; in fact it says this:

Dr. F discussed the condition of ZM, the sister of JM, who died in infancy after a prolonged stay at LHSC. He said that her MRI and MRS were remarkably similar to those completed on JM. He said that Dr. S was involved in ZM's case and that the doctors reluctantly agreed to give her a tracheostomy and send her home.

Baby Joseph's sister survived for SIX MONTHS with her tracheotomy.

93 posted on 03/04/2011 7:08:38 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

New tagline...


94 posted on 03/04/2011 7:20:38 AM PST by EternalVigilance (Babies are only defenseless if you won't defend them.)
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To: wagglebee

You’re offering facts to a euthanasia zealot. That don’t want to hear facts. In their sick mind, this baby is already dead. May God have Mercy on them.


95 posted on 03/04/2011 7:44:18 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: kaila; wagglebee
Quite a few of posts on this subject here have been full of inaccuracies, that somehow a trach will make this baby better.

Actually, nobody has claimed that on this thread. The only claim that has been made is that a trach will permit the child to breathe on his own, without a vent, so he can go home to die a natural death, not "get better."

I called Priests For Life yesterday. They already have all the private funding lined up to care for this baby. If he is brought to the USA, it will not cost you or any other taxpayer a penny. So stop your whining about illegal aliens or costs. Christian conservatives will foot the bill, not you or the government.

96 posted on 03/04/2011 7:49:45 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: EternalVigilance; Lesforlife
Beautiful tagline!
97 posted on 03/04/2011 7:50:00 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; trisham; BykrBayb; EternalVigilance; Lesforlife
I called Priests For Life yesterday. They already have all the private funding lined up to care for this baby. If he is brought to the USA, it will not cost you or any other taxpayer a penny. So stop your whining about illegal aliens or costs. Christian conservatives will foot the bill, not you or the government.

I've been saying this for a week. Priests for Life would not offer to pay for Baby Joseph's care if they didn't have the funding.

Hell, I said on this very thread yesterday that if the hospital is unwilling to give him a tracheotomy due to the cost that I would be happy to give them a credit card over the phone.

I think the death mongers have determined that their best course of action with conservatives is to try to make it about money. What they don't understand is that conservatives care more about human life than they do about money.

98 posted on 03/04/2011 7:55:11 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: kaila; Dr. Brian Kopp
but I am a monthly donor.

So am I. What's your point.

99 posted on 03/04/2011 8:26:32 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are at your door! How will you answer the knock?)
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To: kaila
We cannot keep dead people alive on ventilators

That's right. We can't. Dead people are dead. Live people are alive. There are no zombies hanging around, pretending to be alive. If you see someone moving on their own, or reacting in any way to their environment, that person is alive.

Until you develop a basic understanding of this simple fact, you will remain incapable of understanding any of the more complicated issues involved. At the rate you're going, I don't think you'll ever understand the concept of right and wrong as it pertains to caring for or killing vulnerable people.

100 posted on 03/04/2011 8:27:37 AM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ ├×)
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