Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

War Between the States about slavery? No way
The Tampa Tribune ^ | April 25, 2011 | Al Mccray

Posted on 04/25/2011 9:31:58 AM PDT by Iron Munro

I am responding to a column by Leonard Pitts Jr., a noted black columnist for The Miami Herald, entitled, "The Civil War was about slavery, nothing more" (Other Views, April 15).

I found this article to be very misleading and grossly riddled with distortions of the real causes of the War Between the States. I find it so amusing that such an educated person would not know the facts.

I am a proud native of South Carolina. I have spent my entire life in what was once the Confederate States of America. I am currently associated with Southern Heritage causes, including the Sons of Confederate Veterans in Tampa.

It's been 150 years since brave, patriotic Southerners drove the imperialist Yankee army from Fort Sumter, S.C. It also marked the beginning of the Confederates' fight to expel this foreign army from the entire Southern homeland.

After all these years, there still exists national historical ignorance and lies about this war. The War Between the States was about states' rights — not about slavery.

Remember, the original colonies voluntarily joined the union and never gave up their individual sovereignty. These independent states always retained their right to manage their domestic affairs and to leave this voluntary association at any time.

This voluntary union was for limited reasons such as national defense from the foreign powers, one language, interstate commerce, disputes between the sovereign states and matters of foreign affairs.

When the Southern states tried to leave this union, the Northerners had to put a stop to this. The slavery issue was masterly inserted into the movement of Yankee aggression.

We are a union of independent and sovereign states free to determine our own destiny. This sovereignty is meant to be free of Yankee federal domination and control. This should still be in principle and practice today as it was before the first cannon shots at Fort Sumter.

Slavery of any people is wicked and morally wrong. Domination of one people over another is just as evil and morally wrong.

The facts are that throughout history, just about every race of people has been slaves to another people. Slavery has always been a failed institution and a dark mark in history. One-hundred years before the first slave made it to the auction blocks in Virginia, African kings were running a booming enterprise of selling their own people into slavery. It was also customary that defeated people became slaves.

Slavery as an institution worldwide was coming to an end before the War Between the States. Slavery in America would probably have come to an end within 50 years.

The great eternal lie — that the war was to "free the slaves" — is still being propagandized today by modern spin-makers, schools and even scholars. But the facts are plain and quite evident if you were to take off your Yankee sunglasses.

The Army of the Potomac invaded the South to capture, control and plunder the prosperity of Southern economic resources and its industries. This army also wanted to put a final nail in the coffin of states' rights.

If, and I say this with a big if , the War Between the States was to free the slaves, please answer these simple questions:

Why didn't President Lincoln issue a proclamation on day one of his presidency to free the slaves? Why did he wait so many years later to issue his proclamation? Why was slavery still legal in the Northern states? Before 1864, how many elected members of the imperialist Yankee Congress introduced legislation to outlaw slavery anywhere in America?

The slaves were freed — and only in territories in rebellion against the North — because the Army of the Potomac was not winning the war and Lincoln was fearful of foreign nations recognizing the Confederacy.

The Northern states needed a war to fuel their economy and stop the pending recession. The North needed rebellion in the South to cause havoc in the Confederate states. The North wanted the hard foreign currency being generated by Southern trade.

I hope this year not only marks the celebration of the brave actions of Southerners to evict the Northern Army at Fort Sumter but leads to the truthful revision of history about the war. Future generations should know the truth.

Al Mccray is a Tampa businessman and managing editor of TampaNewsAndTalk.com


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: civilwar; confederacy; dixie; slavery
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 801-850851-900901-950951-963 next last
To: phi11yguy19

“Well then I guess these amendments are ‘hubristic’ in your book?
1st - Congress shall make no law...
2nd - ...shall not be infringed.
4th - ...shall not be violated...”

You’re better than that. I don’t for a moment believe you don’t understand my argument, or wouldn’t if you stopped steamrolling through arguments. Declaring Congress shall make no law restricting this or that, that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, and that the right to be free from unwarranted searches and seizures shall not be violated does not bring you into conflict with any other part of the Constitution. Declaring no amnedments can be made on a particular subject does bring you into conflict with the ability to pass amendments, as outlined in Article 5. If you can still pass amendments, you can pass an amendment to overturn the no amendments amendment.

Actually, the Bill of Rights is in logical conflict with the rest of the Constitution, which has it that the federal government can’t do what it hasn’t been empowered to do. Since Congress was never given the power to regulate speech, it doesn’t make any sense to deny them that power. Madison raised this particular objection when they were proposed. But practicality, in the form of quieting (perceptive) anti-federalists, and emotion, in the form of the Bill of Rights just feeling right, won out.

So, in a way, you’re right. They too are flawed. Not in the same way, though, and certainly not to the extent of, the Corwin amendment.

“i remember one of your buddies arguing Lincoln was not an abolitionist not long ago.”

I don’t know who that was, nor its context. Obviously, he wasn’t an abolitionist to begin with, and never was one in the John Brown sense. But what else can you call someone who issued the EP and pushed for the 13th amendment?


901 posted on 05/02/2011 4:09:18 PM PDT by Tublecane
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 889 | View Replies]

To: phi11yguy19

“i think he should’ve usurped constitutional limits, even though all my posts expose how many constitutional limits he already did usurp, yet you all cozily disregard. Can you saw ‘strawman’?”

Can you say “miss the point”? The point is that since at the same time you criticize Lincoln for usurping constitutional limits and (implicitly, if not outright) not usurping constitutional limits, you are a hypocrite.


902 posted on 05/02/2011 4:13:40 PM PDT by Tublecane
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 891 | View Replies]

To: Tublecane
It was only later that he found religion and became the Great Emancipator.


903 posted on 05/02/2011 4:15:20 PM PDT by Idabilly ("I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. ...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 883 | View Replies]

To: Bubba Ho-Tep
Apparently you are incapable of understanding that a state could be in rebellion and subject to a military measure like the EP, but still remain a state within the union.

How does a military measure change the Constitution? It can't. If the Southern states were still in the Union, as Lincoln claimed, he had no Constitutional authority to abolish slavery in any state. A State could abolish it, but not Lincoln. It takes an Amendment to change the Constitution.

904 posted on 05/02/2011 4:19:29 PM PDT by southernsunshine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 896 | View Replies]

To: phi11yguy19

“only those things you can’t or won’t counter, continue to ignore, and continue your absolute bootlickin narrative in the face of. deflect, deflect, deflect.”

Deflect? I’ve responded to Corwin amendment issues in several different posts. What would constitute not deflecting to you? Surrendering the argument and agreeing with you? Anything less is hiding my head in the sand? I suppose it must be, what with your mighty Evidence, the cornucopia of Links to the holy Websites you’ve visited, the shelves and shelves of Books you’ve read, with History in them, based on Primary Sources that you’re Researched with your open and objective mind./s

Get over yourself and your pile of lost cause talking points. You’re a regurgitator at best. At worst a regurgitator who can’t bring themselves to believe that other people have doen research, too. That books exist that you haven’t read, and legitimate arguments that you haven’t entertained. That some of what other people post is not just hearsay and deflection, but evidence as well.


905 posted on 05/02/2011 4:20:51 PM PDT by Tublecane
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 890 | View Replies]

To: Idabilly

Sustained argument with you guys is impossible. It always devolves to the level of stupid pictures.

Explain to me, in words if you will, why that’s funny? You mean because I used the phrase “found religion”? That’s a figure of speech. The Great Emancipator is merely a common nickname. What about the substance of the sentence? Even you must know that Lincoln eventually supported freeing all the slaves, that he passed the EP which freed some slaves, and that he pushed for the 13th amendment to be passed. How does that not constitute converting to abolitionism in the midst of his presidency?


906 posted on 05/02/2011 4:26:47 PM PDT by Tublecane
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 903 | View Replies]

To: southernsunshine

“How does a military measure change the Constitution?”

Oh, boy. You’re not that obtuse, are you? Are you not aware that the president is the commander in chief of U.S. armed forces, and that the relationship between the citizens and the military is not the same in times of peace as when said citizens make war with the government?


907 posted on 05/02/2011 4:33:41 PM PDT by Tublecane
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 904 | View Replies]

To: Who is John Galt?

Your “observations” are too full of question-begging, special pleading, spurious reasoning, and outright inaccuracies (the 6th amendment protects us against searches and seizures, really?) to adequately respond right now.


908 posted on 05/02/2011 4:37:20 PM PDT by Tublecane
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 900 | View Replies]

To: Tublecane
What is the argument here? That the feds didn’t finish conquering the Confederacy when it surrendered

What Confederacy? Your boy Lincoln never acknowledged its existence. But if we fix the vocabulary, then yes, i believe the fed effectively conquered its states.

The EP did not say...

Didn't have to...war powers are just that - powers existing during wartime only. By definition they expire when the "rebellion" or war expires.

I do order and declare...

I missed your response to the case he had such authority delegated to him in the first place, but again, if it was such a slam dunk case as you think it is 150 years later, then why all the scrambling, congressional speeches, etc. pleading to force it into law (illegally since without proper southern representation)? Apparently there are a lot of people here confusing you with all the things you've skipped over in your "education"
909 posted on 05/02/2011 4:46:10 PM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 892 | View Replies]

To: Tublecane
Huh? Why? Explain.

Per centuries of precedence, laws, etc. slaves were still considered "property". What law gave the president to take such "property" from its citizens? Tough debate if you stick to a strictly legal discussion, and if you veer from that, then the "rule of law" veers as well. "Haggling" such things is(was) sorta the whole point of our government.

Best to be safe. Also, best to be sure all slaves, not just ones in formerly rebellious states, would be free.

1. "best to be safe" on the side of liberal interpretation of a strict "chains" of law binding the government?

2. typical blurring of the discussion. the war was not over the slaves. the EP was (in an attempt to undermine the limited military power of the confederacy), but the war, no. if you stay on focus, you'll understand the big picture.
910 posted on 05/02/2011 4:58:44 PM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 895 | View Replies]

To: Tublecane
but of course the Constitution doesn’t specify everything a commander in chief can do, nor what everything that’s different about a time of emergency as opposed to peacetime.

Against his own people? Sure it does. There are no "implied powers" of usurpation. One second you argue as if the CSA "existed" the other as if it were another Shay's Rebellion. Pick your battle and you find that laws were ignored in either scenario. If you accept all his actions, then you accept that he usurped powers unnecessarily and unlawfully. if you accept that, then what prevents the next pres who declares "emergency" powers to restrict this or that right against a perceived "enemy"? As we've seen since...not much at all.

Did it ever occur to you that it could have stood on its own merits, no matter what abolitionists thought?

LOL, and yet another failure of "separation of powers"...

The executive branch doesn't write laws, therefore no, I don't believe it could've "stood on it's merits". That's why why have a legislative branch. Those who scream for states rights want the original separation between states and the fed gov. Those who study lincoln understand he killed that and the separation of branches.
911 posted on 05/02/2011 5:08:32 PM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 899 | View Replies]

To: Who is John Galt?
For such loyalists, I suspect it would have simply been a matter of bringing the issue before a federal judge, and establishing the facts, to regain possession of any property seized by the federal executive branch.

Hard for them to do after raping, burning and pillaging half a country while (patriotically) "marching to the sea". :(

“Shall government be bound by law, or by morality?” I would say “by law” – if you disagree, feel free to justify your position…

Exactly why we formed a strict rule of law, unlike any society before. In questions of dispute, when asked 'which law' you can answer 'that one right there' (in the constitution or statutes). in a rule of man (morality), you must ask 'whose morality' to which there is ultimately no answer but that of the tyrants.
912 posted on 05/02/2011 5:15:24 PM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 900 | View Replies]

To: Tublecane
The point is that since at the same time you criticize Lincoln for usurping constitutional limits and (implicitly, if not outright) not usurping constitutional limits, you are a hypocrite.

Please, I'm not shy, so do explain...WTH are you saying????
913 posted on 05/02/2011 5:39:04 PM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 902 | View Replies]

To: Tublecane
That books exist that you haven’t read, and legitimate arguments that you haven’t entertained.

In my hundreds of posts in these thread, please care to show me an original source that I haven't quoted. I could care less what revisionist books you claim are out there, the words of the men themselves speak loud and clear. At the very least, if you claim we can go point-counterpoint (which you haven't shown yet, but let's concede for argument's sake), then you admit the issues at the time weren't resolved legally.

So...though not resolved legally, he couldn't have taken it to the courts? Though he agreed to armistices (per his own navy), he was forced pre-Sumter to covertly arm foreign forts while diplomacy was still being sought by the CSA? If you think the answer to both of those is "yes", then you're a bootlickin fool.

If you think the answer to either is no, then he was a usurping tyrant. Unless you think "when in doubt, wage a war pitting brothers against brothers, fathers against sons, states against states, until 600,000 are dead...in the name of 'union' of course" is the act of the leader of a republic.

just admit that it is, then we all know where you stand, and we no longer have anything to discuss here. we'll be very happy calling our's a "lost" cause to the likes of you
914 posted on 05/02/2011 5:50:00 PM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 905 | View Replies]

To: Tublecane; Bubba Ho-Tep

“found religion” is funny since his wife declared him a lifelong atheist at his funeral.

“converting to abolitionism” is funny since your buddy (i think Bubba) argued we was never an abolitionist.

the whole discussion is funny, because it’s based on the rule of one man’s “morality” over the law of the land, and what a precedent that sets...


915 posted on 05/02/2011 5:53:42 PM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 906 | View Replies]

To: Tublecane
Your “observations” are too full of question-begging, special pleading, spurious reasoning, and outright inaccuracies (the 6th amendment protects us against searches and seizures, really?) to adequately respond right now.

Thanks for the correction - I was referring to a copy of the Bill of Rights as proposed, wherein the 4th Amendment was referred to as "Article the sixth," and the 5th Amendment was referred to as "Article the seventh." Given that I quoted the language in question, it's a minor issue (to me at least ;>)- but feel free to correct my spelling, and my grammar as well, if those things are of critical importance to you.

;>)

While you attempt to muster an 'adequate' response, please feel free to enlighten us:

“Shall government be bound by law, or by morality?”

;>)

916 posted on 05/02/2011 6:01:07 PM PDT by Who is John Galt? ("Sometimes I have to break the law in order to meet my management objectives." - Bill Calkins, BLM)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 908 | View Replies]

To: Tublecane
Declaring no amnedments can be made on a particular subject does bring you into conflict with the ability to pass amendments

Really? So your argument is that since Congress can make no amendment to restrict speech, religion, press or assembly that they have no ability to pass amendments??? If you want to make a point, choose your words carefully, because all you're doing is contradicting yourself.

Since Congress was never given the power to regulate speech, it doesn’t make any sense to deny them that power.

So...where was Congress given the power to regulate slavery or secession thus justifying Lincoln's war? If nothing, what does justify his arming forts in seceded lands or the emancipation? I agree 100% that the bill of rights wasn't "necessary" legally, but it clearly was emotionally, practically and logistically as history has shown. You think we've have the right to arm ourselves if not for the 2nd amendment? Is it a shame they didn't add additional "unnecessary" amendments on banking, education, agriculture, medical care, old age "insurance", etc. or are those encroachments on states rights as well? Your buds seem to disagree about the "implied rights issue.

Sorry, it wasn't Bubba. It was popdonnely - whoever that was who has since left
917 posted on 05/02/2011 6:19:07 PM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 901 | View Replies]

To: Tublecane
Oh, boy. You’re not that obtuse, are you? Are you not aware that the president is the commander in chief of U.S. armed forces, and that the relationship between the citizens and the military is not the same in times of peace as when said citizens make war with the government?

A Commander In Chief can't change the US Constitution nor can a military measure. Amendments are a requisite for that type of change.

918 posted on 05/02/2011 7:18:39 PM PDT by southernsunshine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 907 | View Replies]

To: Tublecane; southernsunshine; phi11yguy19
Tub: Actually, the Bill of Rights is in logical conflict with the rest of the Constitution, which has it that the federal government can’t do what it hasn’t been empowered to do. Since Congress was never given the power to regulate speech, it doesn’t make any sense to deny them that power. Madison raised this particular objection when they were proposed.

Mr. Madison observed:

”If a line can be drawn between the powers granted [to the federal government] and the rights retained [by the people and their States], it would seem to be the same thing whether the latter be secured by declaring that they shall not be abridged, or that the former shall not be extended."

If the two are “the same thing” described in different ways, as Mr. Madison suggested, where precisely is the “logical conflict?”

Tub: Even you must know that Lincoln eventually supported freeing all the slaves, that he passed the EP which freed some slaves, and that he pushed for the 13th amendment to be passed. How does that not constitute converting to abolitionism in the midst of his presidency?
Tub: Obviously, [Mr. Lincoln] wasn’t an abolitionist to begin with, and never was one in the John Brown sense. But what else can you call someone who issued the EP and pushed for the 13th amendment?

Actually, ’political pragmatist’ might be a more apt description. I am reminded (for some reason) of President Johnson’s statement a century later, claiming that if he helped pass civil rights legislation, he would “have them [insert racial slur here] voting Democratic for two hundred years" ( http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/812203/posts#14 ).

s: “How does a military measure change the Constitution?”

Tub: Oh, boy. You’re not that obtuse, are you? Are you not aware that the president is the commander in chief of U.S. armed forces, and that the relationship between the citizens and the military is not the same in times of peace as when said citizens make war with the government?

Gosh – and just two posts earlier (#905) you were sanctimoniously reminding us all that “some of what other people post is not just hearsay and deflection, but evidence as well.” (Ouch! ;>)

Hopefully you’re busy preparing a detailed presentation of your “evidence,” regarding the inarguable constitutional foundation for martial law (presumably including the permanent confiscation of property from the civilian populace, without compensation), rather than just throwing insults around. I’m sure your “evidence” will be quite interesting: at the top of the page (#901) you were insisting that “the rest of the Constitution… has it that the federal government can’t do what it hasn’t been empowered to do.” Given that the federal government has only been “empowered” by the Constitution in a very limited fashion (Article I, Section 9, for example) when it comes to martial law, we’ll be looking forward to your “evidence” with bated breath…

;>)

919 posted on 05/02/2011 7:22:54 PM PDT by Who is John Galt? ("Sometimes I have to break the law in order to meet my management objectives." - Bill Calkins, BLM)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 907 | View Replies]

To: phi11yguy19
Exactly why we formed a strict rule of law, unlike any society before. In questions of dispute, when asked 'which law' you can answer 'that one right there' (in the constitution or statutes). in a rule of man (morality), you must ask 'whose morality' to which there is ultimately no answer but that of the tyrants.

Thank you...

;>)

920 posted on 05/02/2011 7:48:14 PM PDT by Who is John Galt? ("Sometimes I have to break the law in order to meet my management objectives." - Bill Calkins, BLM)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 912 | View Replies]

To: southernsunshine

So I guess the north was just using ending slavery as a pretext and reinstituted slavery at war’s end because they didn’t care one way or the other? Get real. The war ended slavery in the U.S. Period. Slavery before the war, no slavery after.


921 posted on 05/02/2011 9:04:45 PM PDT by driftless2 (For long-term happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 836 | View Replies]

To: driftless2; southernsunshine
Slavery before the war, no slavery after.

Brilliant argument, my friend! Simply brilliant! (Of course, one might just as well argue that the war was fought simply to kill Americans: '600,000 living Americans before the war, 600,000 dead Americans after!' ;>)

922 posted on 05/02/2011 9:10:08 PM PDT by Who is John Galt? ("Sometimes I have to break the law in order to meet my management objectives." - Bill Calkins, BLM)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 921 | View Replies]

To: Who is John Galt?

The gist of many secession-defenders, like you, is that the north didn’t care about slavery only using it as a pretext to use freed slaves to fight for them. Then answer me, why didn’t the north allow slavery to be reinstituted at war’s end, huh? Stop the evasive answers and answer that one simple question.


923 posted on 05/02/2011 9:40:03 PM PDT by driftless2 (For long-term happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 922 | View Replies]

To: driftless2

When I first got involved with any of these WBTS threads I was struck by the level of enmity from the Lost Causers. I kinda blundered right into the middle of it with an expression of surprise at one of the claims.

I quickly learned that I was a damnyankee not because of where I was born (Washington State) or raised (Alabama) but because I didn’t drink the Lost Cause Koolaid. I learned that, even though I loved my years growing up in the south and still regarded it fondly I must hate the south and southerners because I disagreed with a tiny (but belligerently vocal) minority. Once I got over the sheer horror of that revelation (ha!) I settled in to view the hilarity.

I must admit that I do love much of the desperate rationalizations that I read here. I knew of the dixie spirit from my youth but had no idea that otherwise grownup people (mis)behaved like this. I’ve learned, in a nutshell (no pun intended) Lost Causers believe that:

States have an expressed right to secession even though it is not enumerated.

Secession is a perfectly acceptable solution to disagreements (even though it results in cataclysmic disaster every time it is attempted).

Secession can be invoked at any time and for any reason (even though it has never been done successfully).

The Civil War is known as The War of northern Aggression even though it was instigated, initiated, and escalated by the south.

The Civil War was fought to defend “states rights” although the only specific right they expressed any interest in protecting was the right to own other human beings.

The confederacy had no interest in The United States and only wished to be ‘left alone’ even though they attempted to intimidate every border state and seize power in every territory of the southwest, west, and northwest.

“First to shoot” means aggressor, except in the case of SC rebels who were duped by the ever popular “We wuz so stoopid we done fell for Linkum’s trap” defense.

Emancipation Proclamation couldn’t have “freed the slaves” even though the Emancipation Proclamation freed the slaves.

Robert E. Lee definitely wasn’t a traitor who waged an illegal war although he was never tried or convicted...or acquitted.

Abraham Lincoln definitely was a dictator who waged an illegal war although he was never tried or convicted.

The rebels felt that they were within their rights to resort to secession even though there has never been a court ruling that confirmed any such right. Lost Cause Losers believe that the confederate rebels acted legally even though the Supreme Court has ruled to the contrary.

Stupid men will ask absurd questions like “Shall government be bound by law, or by morality?” when they demonstrably do not respect the answer.

I look upon such men and shake my head. It must be terribly lonely to hate ones own country as these men do. To regard oneself as a prisoner in their own nation and feel the need to deny ones own history.


924 posted on 05/02/2011 10:32:22 PM PDT by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 921 | View Replies]

To: central_va
Back at you. I live in republic. If my state legislature chooses to leave and the Governor agrees then I will do my duty. Is that clear? Any state has the right of secession for any reason.

Read the declaration of independence to understand the basis of your republic. The basis of every state in this union, and of the union itself, is individual rights. Assholes like you sold other human beings and pissed all over those rights, pissed all over the foundation of everything the states and the union are founded on. If any communal body such as a state is more important to you than individual rights then you are nothing but another jack-booted thug wannabe, waiting for the opportunity to chain up men.
925 posted on 05/02/2011 10:59:03 PM PDT by newguy357
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 367 | View Replies]

To: catfish1957
I bet you like defacing confederate monument and grave stones as a hobby too, don’t you?

Nope. Where did that come from?

I have no interest in defacing confederate monuments, despite the fact that they defaced men. Confederate pride, i.e., pride in destroying the individual rights on which all the states are based, is mostly relegated to trailer parks these days. That is fitting.
926 posted on 05/02/2011 11:01:26 PM PDT by newguy357
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 369 | View Replies]

To: newguy357

Nobody in my family ever owned slaves, even if they did it wouldn’t make any difference for the issue of secession. Secession is a state right and is STILL not illegal.


927 posted on 05/03/2011 2:10:08 AM PDT by central_va
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 925 | View Replies]

To: newguy357
"Relegated to trailer parks

You are a delusional fool equating southern heritage to a couple of bumperstickers. Guess what now??? True conservatism lives in the south, where the northeast is nothing less than a hot bed of RINO slime.

By the way, name one non-RINO republican from Yankee land while you are at it.

928 posted on 05/03/2011 4:08:05 AM PDT by catfish1957 (Hey algore...You'll have to pry the steering wheel of my 317 HP V8 truck from my cold dead hands)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 926 | View Replies]

To: newguy357; Tublecane; central_va
Read the declaration of independence to understand the basis of your republic. The basis of every state in this union, and of the union itself, is individual rights. Assholes like you sold other human beings and pissed all over those rights, pissed all over the foundation of everything the states and the union are founded on. If any communal body such as a state is more important to you than individual rights then you are nothing but another jack-booted thug wannabe, waiting for the opportunity to chain up men.

The British offered freedom to American slaves who would fight in the British army, and they encouraged slaves to sabotage the colonial war effort. This was a serious threat, since slaves were held in each of the thirteen colonies at the time. Given your statement above, and your general disregard for historical fact, and your hatred for ALL slave owners ( including the one who signed the fugitive slave act, George Washington ) There should be no doubt about your loyalty to the Crown/....)

929 posted on 05/03/2011 4:09:09 AM PDT by Idabilly ("I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. ...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 925 | View Replies]

To: driftless2
The war ended slavery in the U.S. Period. Slavery before the war, no slavery after.

Wrong, there was slavery after the war. The 13th Amendment ended it.

But you could say "constitutional republic before, no constitutional republic after. period." and you'll get no arguments here.
930 posted on 05/03/2011 4:09:11 AM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 921 | View Replies]

To: driftless2
why didn’t the north allow slavery to be reinstituted at war’s end, huh? Stop the evasive answers and answer that one simple question.

Slavery was never legally deinstituted in the first place, so you're question's bogus. But to play along, the abolitionists were afraid the gains they made under Lincoln's war powers would be reversed, so they forced the amendment through without the legal representation (aka "unconstitutionally"). Evasive enough for you?

answer me, why haven't you paid attention to the dozens of times this was already pointed out, cited, etc ad nauseum, huh?
931 posted on 05/03/2011 4:15:36 AM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 923 | View Replies]

To: Idabilly
If any communal body such as a state is more important to you than individual rights

If the newguy would calm down, wipe the spittle off of his face, he would see the irony of his statement. The rights of men, life liberty and the poh, are inalienable, not granted by FedGov™ or the state, but by higher authority,

932 posted on 05/03/2011 4:16:05 AM PDT by central_va
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 929 | View Replies]

To: rockrr
rockrr's constitution 101

States have an expressed right to secession even though it is not enumerated.
Right, because the constitution enumerates states rights not the federal governments. How twisted is that excuse for logic?

Secession can be invoked at any time and for any reason
Sure, put more words in other people's mouths to build up your case. Prudence requires declaring your reasons for such as action as Jefferson did and the states each did before secession. But I guess that right of self-determination in the face of tyranny died once it was used successfully in the 18th century and they built a new union prohibiting it.

even though it was instigated, initiated, and escalated by the south.
Just sad, but I'm enjoying the fact you're putting this all down for everyone to see.

although the only specific right they expressed any interest in protecting was the right to own other human beings
Wasn't the only one, but unfortunately through your rosey lenses you forget that it was in fact legal at the time, and a law not delegated to federal juridistiction, thereby being a "state" right. you're also forgetting secession of course, since that's why lincoln raised the troops. and equal taxation, representation, etc. but stick with the "only" story...works well for you.

they attempted to intimidate every border state and seize power in every territory of the southwest, west, and northwest.
do tell. by "seizing power" you mean not allowing the federal government to usurp rights retained by the states, exclude those rights from new states, and permanently force the balance of power to the north? if that's the south "seizing power" then sure, i guess so.

“First to shoot” means aggressor
and the child returns his fingers to his years, closes his eye and shouts 'i can't hear you'. keep ignoring the armistices lincoln violated so make sure your "aggressor" theory holds water.

EP - uhh, no comment. pretty sure you're making stuff up now.

R.E.L. - yeah, traitor. just ask DDE (that's eisenhower for the simple)

Lincoln - uh, when tyrants gain control, rarely do they then face legal proceedings against them...since they have control. but especially so after they're dead.

resort to secession even though there has never been a court ruling that confirmed any such right
Nor would there need to be since they never delegated the right to anyone else, and all such rights were reserved to them. perhaps you need to pick up an ESL class or two before you get out of school to help you understand the law?

even though the Supreme Court has ruled to the contrary
wait, didn't you just finish saying they never ruled on...oh, i get it, you mean after the war with a packed court. got it now.

Stupid men will ask absurd questions like “Shall government be bound by law, or by morality?” when they demonstrably do not respect the answer.
Founders were stupid - check. They asked the same question, and chose rule of law. What "answer" is it they didn't respect?

I look upon such men and shake my head. It must be terribly lonely to hate ones own country as these men do. To regard oneself as a prisoner in their own nation and feel the need to deny ones own history.
You won't find anyone "hating" their country here, but why not fish strong with another strawman. We all love the principles the country was founded upon and the men who've defended them. we don't care for those who killed hundreds of thousands to subvert them, yet get praised as heroes. But thanks for clearing everything up for us.
933 posted on 05/03/2011 4:41:16 AM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 924 | View Replies]

To: newguy357

@newguy - thanks for joining the discussion and immediately bringing your level-headed opinion, (forgetting “@$$h0les” of course)

Unfortunately, the war wasn’t waged to end slavery, it was waged to put the slave states into the submission of their northern brethren. the north was quite ok with slavery remaining since they were enjoying the taxed fruits of slave labor proportionately more than the south.

to get all uppity and project that anyone here is pro-slavery is juvenile. you must forget all the great things the north did to get those slaves from africa to the americas (not just the u.s., but everywhere). all that trapping, chaining, sailing, trading, and the millions of deaths and millions more suffering along the way. you must forget those “principles” you refer to were written at a time when slavery was still in tact and did nothing of it because they didn’t have a practical answer despite their moral objections.

so we should all fall in line an say that killing 600,000 men, women and children was the correct answer and in total agreement with the principles you hold dear?


934 posted on 05/03/2011 4:52:37 AM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 925 | View Replies]

To: Tublecane
Explain to me, in words if you will, why that’s funny? You mean because I used the phrase “found religion”? That’s a figure of speech. The Great Emancipator is merely a common nickname. What about the substance of the sentence? Even you must know that Lincoln eventually supported freeing all the slaves, that he passed the EP which freed some slaves, and that he pushed for the 13th amendment to be passed. How does that not constitute converting to abolitionism in the midst of his presidency?

Since the Southern states were no longer part of the federal compact, the Emancipation Proclamation amounted to an attempt to incite a slave revolt in another country, in spite of the proclamation’s weak, ambiguous disclaimer to the contrary. Certainly the Radicals hoped the proclamation would spark a slave revolt, regardless of the cost in human lives. Furthermore...it left Northern slaves in bondage.

935 posted on 05/03/2011 4:54:30 AM PDT by Idabilly ("I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. ...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 906 | View Replies]

To: driftless2
The gist of many secession-defenders, like you, is that the north didn’t care about slavery only using it as a pretext to use freed slaves to fight for them. Then answer me, why didn’t the north allow slavery to be reinstituted at war’s end, huh? Stop the evasive answers and answer that one simple question.

As I've stated repeatedly, in writing, the critical issue is the constitutionality of State secession - not slavery. If State secession was constitutional, then it would not have mattered if the Southern States seceded to preserve slavery, or donate tax proceeds to the Little Sisters of the Poor - the federal government would not have been justified in opposing it. The most important common issue in the 1830s and the 1860s was the constitutionality of secession, not slavery:

...the people of this State will thenceforth hold themselves absolved from all further obligation to maintain or preserve their political connexion with the people of the other States, and will forthwith proceed to organize a separate Government, and do all other acts and things which sovereign and independent States may of right to do.

- South Carolina Ordinance of Nullification, November 24 1832

Others here prefer to focus on slavery, no doubt because it supposedly lends moral authority to what are by definition legal arguments. In short, I would suggest that your summary in post #921 should be revised: States' rights before the war, no States rights after.

;>)

936 posted on 05/03/2011 5:31:30 AM PDT by Who is John Galt? ("Sometimes I have to break the law in order to meet my management objectives." - Bill Calkins, BLM)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 923 | View Replies]

To: rockrr
I'm used to responding on these secession threads with the knowledge that there's no way I'll convince any of LCers to give up their absurd positions. They reason backwards, if reason is the right world. What I do wish to do is put stuff out for the casual observer who might be persuaded by their insane "logic" that maybe secession is the way to go. They, LCers, will never accept the reality of what caused the civil war, slavery, and the fact that no oppression of the south was going on.

It has been written about, even by many of them, for decades that Lincoln was not going to touch slavery. Until they forced his hand. In short, the south shot itself in the foot. If they didn't rebel, the "peculiar institution" would have gone on for at least a few more decades. The secessionists are responsble for whatever destruction occurred. And rest assured, if anybody in my state of Wisconsin tried to organize some sort of secessionist movement, I'd gladly favor the feds to come in and hang each and every one of them. I'm a citizen of UNITED!!! States of America, but just a resident of Wisconsin, a state I love dearly.

937 posted on 05/03/2011 6:08:03 AM PDT by driftless2 (For long-term happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 924 | View Replies]

To: driftless2
And rest assured, if anybody in my state of Wisconsin tried to organize some sort of secessionist movement,

apples and oranges. it wasn't just "anybody" in the states, it was the states themselves. maybe your failure to understand this difference is why you consistently fail to get every other point being raised.

I'd gladly favor the feds to come in and hang each and every one of them. I'm a citizen of UNITED!!! States of America, but just a resident of Wisconsin

Wow, just wow! fascist bootlicking words if ever there were any said on FR. the "union" of states is forced by might at all costs. whenever it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another...well, they better dammsure do it by force if you have anything to say about it.

And in the event of a failure of every constitutional resort, and an accumulation of usurpations and abuses, rendering passive obedience and non-resistance a greater evil, than resistance and revolution, there can remain but one resort, the last of all, an appeal from the cancelled obligations of the constitutional compact, to original rights and the law of self-preservation. This is the ultima ratio under all Government whether consolidated, confederated, or a compound of both; and it cannot be doubted that a single member of the Union, in the extremity supposed, but in that only, would have a right, as an extra and ultra constitutional right, to make the appeal.

Secessionist...treasonous...hang him! (That would be Mr. Madison's noose.) If your go-get-em-and-hang-em spirit isn't the Spirit of '76 then I don't know what is! (/sarc)
938 posted on 05/03/2011 6:38:20 AM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 937 | View Replies]

To: driftless2
And rest assured, if anybody in my state of Wisconsin tried to organize some sort of secessionist movement, I'd gladly favor the feds to come in and hang each and every one of them.

Mirror, mirror on the wall / Who in the land loves licking boots most of all? To which driftless2's mirror always replies: There are no federal bootlickers better than you!!


939 posted on 05/03/2011 6:46:11 AM PDT by Idabilly ("I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. ...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 937 | View Replies]

To: Idabilly

who wants a republic reshmublic anyway?


940 posted on 05/03/2011 6:56:22 AM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 939 | View Replies]

To: southernsunshine
How does a military measure change the Constitution? It can't. If the Southern states were still in the Union, as Lincoln claimed, he had no Constitutional authority to abolish slavery in any state.

Technically, the Emancipation didn't legally end slavery in the rebelling states. Read it. It never says that it's making slavery illegal in those states. It says that it's freeing the slaves. It's similar to a civil forfeiture in a drug case. When the government seizes a drug kingpin's house, car, boat and cash, they're not making the ownership of houses, cars, boats and cash illegal. Putting a legal end to slavery was accomplished via the 13th amendment and the Reconstruction state constitutions.

941 posted on 05/03/2011 9:16:48 AM PDT by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 904 | View Replies]

To: phi11yguy19
Prudence requires declaring your reasons for such as action as Jefferson did and the states each did before secession.

So what does it say that only four rebelling states actually issued a document laying out the reasons for their acts of secession?

942 posted on 05/03/2011 9:25:10 AM PDT by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 933 | View Replies]

To: Bubba Ho-Tep
It's similar to a civil forfeiture in a drug case.

For that analogy to work, you'd have to equate illegal drug trafficking with what was at the time legal slavery or legal secession. I don't see the similarity.

When the government seizes a drug kingpin's house, car, boat and cash, they're not making the ownership of houses, cars, boats and cash illegal.

Again, for that analogy to work, the E.P. would've only applied to Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee or (stretching it out a bit) to any who raised arms in the South. A more accurate analogy would be the fed seizing the houses, cars, boats and cash of everyone in Florida because there's drug trafficking somewhere in Miami. Again, I don't see the similarity.
943 posted on 05/03/2011 11:25:40 AM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 941 | View Replies]

To: phi11yguy19
For that analogy to work, you'd have to equate illegal drug trafficking with what was at the time legal slavery or legal secession. I don't see the similarity.

Of course you don't. But I don't have to equate it with legal secession or legal slavery, I have to equate it with illegal rebellion. As the EP says, it is "a fit and necessary war measure for suppressing said rebellion."

944 posted on 05/03/2011 12:21:54 PM PDT by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 943 | View Replies]

To: Bubba Ho-Tep
States aren't parties to "rebellions". When States exercise their right to leave a union pact, it's called "secession". Since the right of secession was reserved to the states, yes, you will have to somehow equate that with illegal drug trafficking.

The whole "rebellion" angle was Lincoln's false narrative to his willing sheeple.
945 posted on 05/03/2011 12:43:31 PM PDT by phi11yguy19
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 944 | View Replies]

To: phi11yguy19

Then you should probably sue Lincoln to get all the slaves returned to their owners.


946 posted on 05/03/2011 12:51:58 PM PDT by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 945 | View Replies]

To: Bubba Ho-Tep
I'm sure they'll get right on that just as soon as they finish a little housekeeping on that Texas v. White case that sticking in their craw.


947 posted on 05/03/2011 2:38:15 PM PDT by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 946 | View Replies]

To: phi11yguy19

“For that analogy to work, you’d have to equate illegal drug trafficking with what was at the time legal slavery or legal secession. I don’t see the similarity”

How about rebellion, which is the literally what EP offers as justification. Is that illegal enough for you? Oh, wait, I forgot, the feds were the ones acting illegally, since they started it, despite the South shooting first. [ahem!]


948 posted on 05/03/2011 3:06:41 PM PDT by Tublecane
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 943 | View Replies]

To: rockrr
I'm sure they'll get right on that just as soon as they finish a little housekeeping on that Texas v. White case that sticking in their craw.

Since you raised the subject - care to defend the reasoning (including the justices' rather creative interpretation of "history") in the majority opinion in Texas v. White? We'll see how much you learned from Non-Sequitur...

(By the way, good to see you back, my friend! We were a little worried about you there, for a while, when your home page said you were 'banned or suspended'... ;>)

949 posted on 05/03/2011 3:14:57 PM PDT by Who is John Galt? ("Sometimes I have to break the law in order to meet my management objectives." - Bill Calkins, BLM)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 947 | View Replies]

To: Tublecane; phi11yguy19
How about rebellion, which is the literally what EP offers as justification. Is that illegal enough for you?

"Illegal?" Actually, I can't seem to locate a single clause in the antebellum Constitution that prohibited State secession (quite the opposite in fact). But feel free to quote the article, section and clause to which you are referring...

;>)

Oh, wait, I forgot, the feds were the ones acting illegally, since they started it, despite the South shooting first. [ahem!]

"Oh, boy. You’re not that obtuse, are you?" Are you not aware that who shoots first does not necessarily determine the legality of an action? Theoretically speaking, under certain circumstances, if federal law enforcement officers entered my home without proper legal authorization, I would not be at fault if I opened fire. (Not that I would ever do that - I wouldn't want to be killed instantly, even if my actions were justified posthumously by a federal court! ;>)

950 posted on 05/03/2011 3:27:23 PM PDT by Who is John Galt? ("Sometimes I have to break the law in order to meet my management objectives." - Bill Calkins, BLM)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 948 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 801-850851-900901-950951-963 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson