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TIME : ex-CIA says waterboarding was key in finding Bin Ladin
Time Magazine ^ | 05/04 2011 | drzz

Posted on 05/04/2011 9:23:23 AM PDT by drzz

A former head of counterterrorism at the CIA, who was investigated last year by the Justice Department for the destruction of videos showing senior al-Qaeda officials being interrogated, says the harsh questioning of terrorism suspects produced the information that eventually led to Osama bin Laden’s death.

Jose Rodriguez ran the CIA’s Counterterrorism Center from 2002 to 2005, the period when top al-Qaeda leaders Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM) and Abu Faraj al-Libbi were taken into custody and subjected to “enhanced interrogation techniques” (EITs) at secret prisons overseas. KSM was subjected to waterboarding, sleep deprivation and other techniques. Al-Libbi was not waterboarded, but other EITs were used on him. “Information provided by KSM and Abu Faraj al-Libbi about bin Laden’s courier was the lead information that eventually led to the location of [bin Laden’s] compound and the operation that led to his death,” Rodriguez tells TIME in his first public interview. Rodriguez was cleared of charges in the video-destruction investigation last year.

(Excerpt) Read more at swampland.time.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News
KEYWORDS: binladen; islam; obama; obamabinladinwar; war

1 posted on 05/04/2011 9:23:24 AM PDT by drzz
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To: drzz

Rush is on this right now about Panetta admitting waterboarding a key part of getting the info on Osama.

Then a lesser member of the regime said Panetta did not say that.

But yes, he did say that.


2 posted on 05/04/2011 9:29:13 AM PDT by RummyChick
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To: drzz
Great moments in liberal logic.

It was an international embarrassment for America that Bush ordered these enhanced interrogation techniques.

It was the greatest day in American history, when Obama used the information from these interrogations to order our military to enter another country unilaterally and to shoot an unarmed old man in the face.

3 posted on 05/04/2011 9:35:32 AM PDT by dead (I've got my eye out for Mullah Omar.)
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To: dead

How old was OBL? I read he had 9 wives! Amazing...


4 posted on 05/04/2011 9:40:55 AM PDT by ohiogrammy (12)
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To: drzz

I tried to talk with two libs in my office about this and amazingly, they wanted to talk about Valerie Plame. LOL Talk about deflecting. One of them was almost yelling at me before the 2008 election about how evil Bush/Cheney are because of waterboarding but he was whooping it up about the killing of OBL. LOL LOL Their heads are exploding.


5 posted on 05/04/2011 9:41:51 AM PDT by Mercat (Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.)
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To: ohiogrammy
How old was OBL? I read he had 9 wives! Amazing...

And a dozen goats...don't forget the goats.

6 posted on 05/04/2011 9:43:25 AM PDT by tsmith130
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To: drzz

The dems are trying desperately trying to spin this but it’s already out there. This is why, (I believe,) Bush wisely is staying away because Obama desperately needs to portray himself as the man here, if Bush had showed up Obama would treat him like he has Ryan, Paul, SCOTUS and others.


7 posted on 05/04/2011 9:44:48 AM PDT by ATLDiver
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To: drzz

I wonder if there were any other successful sports at Club Gitmo?


8 posted on 05/04/2011 9:48:01 AM PDT by USMCPOP (Father of LCpl. Karl Linn, KIA 1/26/2005 Al Haqlaniyah, Iraq)
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To: ATLDiver

Another reason for Bush not to show up is, what happens if the crowds cheer Bush louder and longer than Barry?

Embarrassing for everyone, more gracious to avoid the situation. Clinton (either) would jump at such a potential to upstage someone.


9 posted on 05/04/2011 10:04:35 AM PDT by DBrow
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To: All

10 posted on 05/04/2011 10:12:58 AM PDT by Oldeconomybuyer (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.)
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11 posted on 05/04/2011 10:31:55 AM PDT by TheOldLady (Almost as evil as the Freeper Criminal Mastermind)
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To: dead

We have been living on the wrong side of the looking glass for over two years now.


12 posted on 05/04/2011 10:38:56 AM PDT by fhayek
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To: ohiogrammy
How old was OBL? I read he had 9 wives! Amazing...

Not really. Its fundamental Islam. Think of them more as slaves. They must do as they are told without complaint. No speaking without permission etc. Not like here in the USA. And not something I would want either.

13 posted on 05/04/2011 10:41:40 AM PDT by Upstate NY Guy
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To: Upstate NY Guy

Nine wives? I am not sure I want the one half the time.


14 posted on 05/04/2011 10:53:45 AM PDT by fhayek (Just kidding, honey, just kidding)
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To: drzz

Try to tell them that we may have lost WWII or at least the out come much worse if we didn’t interrogate for information on how to read the Enigma machine


15 posted on 05/04/2011 11:52:04 AM PDT by Steve Van Doorn (*in my best Eric cartman voice* 'I love you guys')
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To: RummyChick

Joy blowhard from the view this morning said waterboarding is AWFUL we should just give them money to talk.

Someone please tell her to stfu already.


16 posted on 05/04/2011 12:03:46 PM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Allen West 2012 Make it happen!)
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To: DBrow

True, plus look at the comical handling of the whole ‘photo release.’ Pre_sent Feckless to the rescue....


17 posted on 05/04/2011 12:26:39 PM PDT by ATLDiver
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To: Upstate NY Guy

Nine mother-in-laws.


18 posted on 05/04/2011 1:29:03 PM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
Joy blowhard from the view this morning said waterboarding is AWFUL we should just give them money to talk.

Well, I'd pay her to shut up!

19 posted on 05/04/2011 1:29:18 PM PDT by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: drzz

This can’t be true.

We have told by the liberals for over a decade that waterboarding and other techniques never work.


20 posted on 05/04/2011 1:36:12 PM PDT by Grampa Dave (ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS DESTROYING AMERICA-LOOK AT WHAT IT DID TO THE WHITE HOUSE!)
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To: drzz

Last night, an ex CIA agent said just the opposite. He said if waterboarding was what worked we would have had bin laden in 2003. Not in 2011. He is right.


21 posted on 05/04/2011 2:09:22 PM PDT by DallasSun (Courage~Fear that has said its prayers.)
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To: DallasSun
The guy whose name was given up by KSM after water-boarding didn't have his Bin Lauden house built in 2003.

Sometimes the intel you get in 2003 isn't ACTIONABLE until 2011 - if ever.

22 posted on 05/04/2011 2:13:21 PM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: RummyChick

Panetta is one of the better Democrats you can expect to get in a Democratic Administration.


23 posted on 05/04/2011 2:28:37 PM PDT by Bruce Campbells Chin
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To: RummyChick
Then a lesser member of the regime said Panetta did not say that.But yes, he did say that.

That would be awesome if he did say it. Is there any documentation, or a video somewhere?

24 posted on 05/04/2011 2:31:51 PM PDT by curiosity
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To: curiosity

Yes, he is on video saying it...from Brian Williams no less

http://www.hulu.com/watch/238092/nbc-nightly-news-with-brian-williams-panetta-enhanced-interrogation-included-water-boarding

4 minute mark


25 posted on 05/04/2011 2:42:08 PM PDT by RummyChick
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To: RummyChick
So I found this interview with Panetta. He seems to imply that information from waterboarding helped, but he says it in an indirect, weasle-worded way, that gives him plausible deniability:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/05/03/panetta_open_question_if_waterboarding_helped_find_bin_laden.html

Still, with that, and the testimony from the ex-CIA official in Time, I think it is pretty safe to assume that waterboarding and other low-level forms of torture helped get OBL.

BTW, I hate euphamisms. I believe in calling a spade a spade. Anyone who denies that "enhanced interogation" is low-level torture is fooling himself. But that's fine. I don't believe we need to be apologetic about torturing someone like KSM.

If it is morally permissible to kill the guilty in order to save the lives of the innocent, why is it not permissible to inflict on the guilty temporary, non-lethal, non-injury-causing pain to acheive the same end?

26 posted on 05/04/2011 2:42:59 PM PDT by curiosity
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To: RummyChick
Thanks. Found the transcript.
27 posted on 05/04/2011 2:43:46 PM PDT by curiosity
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To: DallasSun
He said if waterboarding was what worked we would have had bin laden in 2003. Not in 2011. He is right

No, he is wrong. His logic doesn't follow.

It is quite plausible that waterboarding gave us a lead in 2003, which in turn led to another lead, and then that lead led to another, and so on until it sequence of leads eventually led to OBL's location.

All the accounts written so far seem to suggest that is exactly what happened. That is, the waterboarding in 2003 was the start of a sequence of leads that led to the eventual result in 2011. But without that initial lead, it is hard to see how the final result could accomplished. I suppose, though, we will never know the counterfactual of what would have happened had we never got that first lead.

28 posted on 05/04/2011 2:48:36 PM PDT by curiosity
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To: curiosity
Water-boarding doesn't cause pain - it causes distress and panic.

Torture is what the North Vietnamese did to McCain, and he still suffers from the injuries inflicted.

The afternoon of his water-boarding, KSM would have been perfectly able physically to play a rousing game of tennis, and has not a single scar to show for his “torture”.

29 posted on 05/04/2011 3:33:57 PM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: drzz

Keep using it! It works.


30 posted on 05/04/2011 3:52:37 PM PDT by b4its2late (Ignorance allows liberalism to prosper.)
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To: allmendream
Water-boarding doesn't cause pain - it causes distress and panic.

In other words, it causes mental anguish, making it fit the standard definition of torture, which does not necessarily require physical pain.

Torture is what the North Vietnamese did to McCain, and he still suffers from the injuries inflictedThe afternoon of his water-boarding, KSM would have been perfectly able physically to play a rousing game of tennis, and has not a single scar to show for his “torture”.

There are different degrees of torture. Admittedly, waterboarding is among the mildest. Nevertheless, a form of interogation need not cause lasting injury to be classified as torture.

Bottom line, though, whether you call it torture or not, waterboarding KSM was quite obviously morally justified.

IMHO, we would have been morally justified to put him on the rack, medieval style, if it would have been effective at making him talk.

I suspect, though, that low-level, mental torture, such as waterboarding, is probably more effective at obtaining useful information than brutal, physically painful torture.

31 posted on 05/04/2011 4:12:43 PM PDT by curiosity
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To: allmendream
Water-boarding doesn't cause pain - it causes distress and panic.

In other words, it causes mental anguish, making it fit the standard definition of torture, which does not necessarily require physical pain.

Torture is what the North Vietnamese did to McCain, and he still suffers from the injuries inflictedThe afternoon of his water-boarding, KSM would have been perfectly able physically to play a rousing game of tennis, and has not a single scar to show for his “torture”.

There are different degrees of torture. Admittedly, waterboarding is among the mildest. Nevertheless, a form of interogation need not cause lasting injury to be classified as torture.

Bottom line, though, whether you call it torture or not, waterboarding KSM was quite obviously morally justified.

IMHO, we would have been morally justified to put him on the rack, medieval style, if it would have been effective at making him talk.

I suspect, though, that low-level, mental torture, such as waterboarding, is probably more effective at obtaining useful information than brutal, physically painful torture.

32 posted on 05/04/2011 4:12:43 PM PDT by curiosity
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To: curiosity
Mental anguish is not the standard definition of torture.

When people think torture (and what images comes to mind among native speakers is what defines a word) they think dungeons and clamps and racks and redhot pokers and iron maidens and thumb screws.

I think making this distinction is not just semantics. And I agree that such coercive interrogation methods are more effective than torture - I don't agree that they are torture.

We don't torture people - we use coercion. Apparently water-boarding IS quite effective - rendering the need for such barbarities moot. And yet they are still practiced - leading to the necessity (in my mind) of drawing a distinction between them.

33 posted on 05/04/2011 4:22:14 PM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: drzz

Bookmarked!


34 posted on 05/04/2011 5:43:33 PM PDT by Ballygrl
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To: drzz

At least Wired.com (no change to title) made a feeble attempt to update this story...
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05/surveillance-not-waterboarding-led-to-bin-laden


35 posted on 05/04/2011 6:55:27 PM PDT by LayoutGuru2 (0BAMAC0RN)
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To: allmendream

If waterboarding doesn’t work, try an ironing board, a surf board, or a good 2 x 4. This is war and if we don’t get tough, we lose. I’m not for gratuitous torture or even widespread torture, but something like waterboarding can save thousands of lives if used judiciously and sparingly.

I, for one, will not have the blood of our soldiers or innocents on my hands or conscience if I were to fail to try my best to protect them. A coward’s way out leaves a lot of bodies in its wake.


36 posted on 05/04/2011 8:34:04 PM PDT by MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
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To: allmendream
Mental anguish is not the standard definition of torture.

It is one form of torture, according to the US Federal Code:

(1) "torture" means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;

(2)“severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—

(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;

(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;

(C) the threat of imminent death; or

(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality;

Waterboarding clearly qualifies under (B), as a "procedure calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses," and posssibly (C), "threat of imminent death."

Taken from here:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/718/usc_sec_18_00002340----000-.html

We don't torture people

If there are Islamist terrorists who deserve torture, and by whose torture the lives of innocents can be saved, then we should torture them and be unapologetic about it.

37 posted on 05/05/2011 9:51:54 AM PDT by curiosity
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To: curiosity
Mental pain or suffering is not mental anguish.

I don't think panic over inducing a drowning reflex is a disruption of the senses or personality - they are making them quite aware of the sense of drowning - not disrupting that sense.

And while a drowning reflex makes someone go through the physical reactions associated with them being threatened by imminent death - nobody yet had died from it -nor is death threatened or implied as a consequence of this procedure - so I don't see it as a threat of imminent death either.

Torture has a clear meaning to most people, and making someone think they are drowning for 15 minutes to get them to talk doesn't cover it to most people - that is just a coercive interrogation technique.

Seeings as how genuine real deal torture DOES go on - I think it critical to differentiate what we do with what goes on elsewhere.

As the sibling of a rather sadistic older brother - I had to laugh at Ann Coulter’s characterization recalling herself growing up with her older brother.

Here is Ann Coulter describing (satirically) the absolute HORROR of reading the CIA “torture” memos.

http://townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/2009/04/29/muslims_we_do_that_on_first_dates

38 posted on 05/05/2011 10:01:38 AM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: allmendream
Mental pain or suffering is not mental anguish.

Huh? Anguish is excrutiating mental pain or suffering! That's the definition fo the word! Hence it follows that mental anguish is mental pain. Don't believe me? Look it up for yourself:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anguish

I don't think panic over inducing a drowning reflex is a disruption of the senses or personality - they are making them quite aware of the sense of drowning - I don't think panic over inducing a drowning reflex is a disruption of the senses or personality - they are making them quite aware of the sense of drowning - not disrupting that sense.

Dude, you are grasping at straws here. They are creating a sense of drowning when in point of fact the person is not drowning. If that's not a disruption of the senses, nothing is.

39 posted on 05/05/2011 10:20:37 AM PDT by curiosity
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To: curiosity
I was in anguish after my heart was broken. I was not in pain. Mental anguish may be caused by nausea, fear, disorientation, etc, etc - all having nothing to do with pain response.

Disruption of the senses was mentioned in the context of drugs - and can also involve sensory deprivation, etc. It was not written to cover “you may feel like you are drowning - but this is just a physiological response”.

There is real deal 100% unambiguous TORTURE going on - we don't do that - I think the distinction is an important one.

It is fine that you disagree, but I don't think American interests are served by saying “We torture people” when we don't do anything that comes close to what most people do when they engage in torture.

Did you read the Ann Coulter article?

Did you laugh?

40 posted on 05/05/2011 10:30:44 AM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: Steve Van Doorn

“Try to tell them that we may have lost WWII or at least the out come much worse if we didn’t interrogate for information on how to read the Enigma machine”

I would sure like to hear about US involvement, using enhanced interrogation techniques, to learn how to read the Enigma machine.

I thought the Brits did it, at Bletchley Park, using early computers and math.


41 posted on 05/05/2011 12:03:06 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: truth_seeker
Sorry I had this bookmarked I thought. I am having a hard time finding a good article on it. I read about it a few years back. i will look again another time it is most interesting.
http://www.ireference.ca/search/Cryptanalysis%20of%20the%20Enigma/

This was the most significant success of interrogations there were others such as Paton was almost caught heading operation Operation Torch. Interrogations saved him in France

42 posted on 05/05/2011 8:58:16 PM PDT by Steve Van Doorn (*in my best Eric cartman voice* 'I love you guys')
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