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Arab world a relic of history
QMI Agency via Sun Media via Toronto Sun ^ | 2011-06-11 | Salim Mansur

Posted on 06/11/2011 4:38:26 AM PDT by Clive

Only the politically correct, and they are the majority in the contemporary West, remain surprised of how quickly the so-called “Arab spring” has turned into an “Arab frenzy” and is headed into an “Arab inferno.”

In the long run, everything can likely work out and Arabs hopefully may learn to distinguish between mobocracy, as a tyranny of the majority, and democracy, as a rule of law, in which minorities are protected as equal members of society.

But in the long run, as Lord John Maynard Keynes — the revered economic guru of the liberal-left — pointed out the obvious: “In the long run we are all dead.” What matters is whether in the short or medium term Arab politics can break out of its closed circle of traditional consensus that frowns upon innovation as heresy.

The problem is culture. Arab culture, despite tremendous changes that have occurred elsewhere in the world, remains resilient in adhering to traditional values of patriarchy and the tribal order of father (leader) knows what is best for his tribe or nation.

The Arab League consists of 21 states and the Palestinian Authority. There is not one single democracy in this collection of Arab states, and the predominant reason for the absence of democracy among Arabs is culture.

Democracy is not merely an election, and a representative party with majority support holding power.

For democracy to work, the prerequisite is a culture in which the people recognizes the “other” — irrespective of how the “other” is defined in terms of ethnicity or religion or gender — as equal, and their interests and aspirations as legitimate.

This recognition of the “other” is missing in Arab culture. The “other” is merely tolerated in a subordinate status and since the “other” in the modern context is unwilling to be consigned indefinitely into an inferior position, the result is the repeated cycle of rebellion and repression in Arab history.

One of the most insightful explorations of the reasons for the absence of democracy in the Arab world is provided by an Arab-Moroccan woman, Fatima Mernissi.

Mernissi’s book Islam and Democracy: Fear of the Modern World (1992) is remarkable for the wealth of ideas she presents in explaining the anti-democratic culture of her people, and the fear of modernity that grips them.

The ultimate “other,” and also the ultimate “minority,” is the individual asserting his/her individuality against the collective order of men and things. In Arab culture, individualism — as cultivated in the West — is feared and repressed because its affirmation represents the freedom of an individual contesting with and moving out of the closed circle of the tribe.

The West (“gharb” in Arabic), as Mernissi explains, is frightening because, among many things, freedom renders it strange, and like the female form, freedom is seductive.

Arab culture, on the contrary, demands whatever is desirable and relished in private must be hidden (veiled) in public. The fear of “fitna” or anarchy haunts Arab culture.

“In our time,” Mernissi writes, “freedom in the Arab world is synonymous with disorder.” And so a culture suspicious of the West will continue to prefer arid summers of tribal order over any spring that heralds freedom for its people.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; War on Terror
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 06/11/2011 4:38:28 AM PDT by Clive
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To: exg; Alberta's Child; albertabound; AntiKev; backhoe; Byron_the_Aussie; Cannoneer No. 4; ...

Salim Mansur ping


2 posted on 06/11/2011 4:39:51 AM PDT by Clive
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To: Clive

I’ve said for years that I am not actually all that afraid of the Arab and Muslim world. They’re NOT going to be able to take us over. They may be able to do damage, they can make pinprick attacks, and the West’s own foolishness may allow millions of them in who will then be “dealt with” (Europeans have done it before...) at a later date, but fundamentally, the Arab-Muslim civilisation is one that is past its prime and is in its long autumn, heading toward ultimate collapse.


3 posted on 06/11/2011 4:52:03 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus ("Armed forces abroad are of little value unless there is prudent counsel at home." - Cicero)
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To: Clive; All
For democracy to work, the prerequisite is a culture in which the people recognizes the “other” — irrespective of how the “other” is defined in terms of ethnicity or religion or gender — as equal, and their interests and aspirations as legitimate.

Reminds me of something I wrote a couple of months ago - The Middle East, America, and the Culture of Liberty

4 posted on 06/11/2011 4:56:20 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus ("Armed forces abroad are of little value unless there is prudent counsel at home." - Cicero)
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To: Clive

Arab culture: steal, pillage, rape, kill. Repeat cycle. It’s all in the Koran, no discussion necessary.


5 posted on 06/11/2011 4:56:23 AM PDT by elcid1970 ("Deport Muslims. Nuke Mecca. Death to Islam. Freedom for mankind.")
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
...the Arab-Muslim civilisation is...heading toward ultimate collapse.

How do you feel about the demographics? A billion-plus people with a lively birth rate scares me, even if their culture is collapsing.

(I say culture because they have no civilization to collapse.)

6 posted on 06/11/2011 5:00:54 AM PDT by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast (Bad posters drive out good. Don't post and drive!)
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To: Clive

Salim misses the key issue in ISLAM.

ISLAM cannot and will not tolerate minorities under the contemporary jihad derangement syndrome.

Oh sure, a thousand years ago or so “toleration” at a price kept rebellions pacified. Today, though, any system under ISLAM that requires participation of disparate parties (even sunni and shite) dissolves into killing.

“Subjugation not Participation”


7 posted on 06/11/2011 5:02:16 AM PDT by plangent
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To: Clive

Cultures that do not adapt to changing circumstances are doomed. It is obvious that no Muslim country can compete in the modern world.


8 posted on 06/11/2011 5:03:34 AM PDT by dog breath
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To: Clive

Arabs are Sand Savages not because of just tribalism, but because they are Moslim.

Islam is the cancer, radiation is the answer.

Islam is antithetical to America, and is irreconcilable with America.

Nuke the Moslim World before it nukes us.

Islam Delenda Est - because of what Islam is and because of what Moslims do.


9 posted on 06/11/2011 5:22:30 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is essential to examine principles,)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; Clive
"I’ve said for years that I am not actually all that afraid of the Arab and Muslim world. They’re NOT going to be able to take us over. They may be able to do damage, they can make pinprick attacks, and the West’s own foolishness may allow millions of them in who will then be “dealt with” (Europeans have done it before...) at a later date, but fundamentally, the Arab-Muslim civilisation is one that is past its prime and is in its long autumn, heading toward ultimate collapse."

You are probably right. The "Arab and Muslim world" isn't going to take us over or even pose a serious threat to us. It will collapse. For that very reason it will not succumb to the West but rather to a sort of Neo-Ottomanism. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, at least for the ME. There could be "opportunities" in the Levant for people who understand what is going on over there.

10 posted on 06/11/2011 5:25:00 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

“the Arab-Muslim civilization is one that is past its prime and is in its long autumn, heading toward ultimate collapse.”

Your statements would be true except for demographics. The replacement rate in most of Europe is .3 per couple. (.3 of a child entering the workforce when the two parents retire.) The replacement rate in most Arab cultures is many, many times higher. The long term, fifty-year, prospect for Europe is that it will turn Islamic. (As I recall, Russia, Spain, Greece and Italy all have replacement rates below .3. No civilization has ever recovered from such a low replacement rate. The problem in Russia is that women have something like 3 abortions in their fertile years. Abortion is free, but raising a child is ruinously expensive.)


11 posted on 06/11/2011 5:29:38 AM PDT by Gen.Blather
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To: Clive

I believe the Arab nations as we know them will cease to be an effective power within 50 years. Hopefully much much less in years.

There will be someday very soon a momentous discovery be it from man or alien that will give everybody complete easy non taxable cheap energy for cars and home, and oil, its feuds, its taxes and the engines it runs on will become obsolete.


12 posted on 06/11/2011 5:32:34 AM PDT by Eye of Unk (2012, NO MORE LIES!)
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To: plangent
Salim misses the key issue in ISLAM.


Salim deliberately misses the key of ISLAM. The piece is obviously more al taquia - deliberate religious sanctioned lying - to give liberals the hope that just talking will one day make the muslim arabs moderate islam - which will never happen


“Subjugation not Participation”

“Submission not Participation”

13 posted on 06/11/2011 5:33:51 AM PDT by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: elcid1970

It’s all in the Koran, no discussion necessary.
///
absolutely! you nailed it!

this article correctly identifies facts and symptoms, and then misses the CAUSE.
...just as liberals constantly do. blaming the wrong thing, like “lack of money” for bad education. “poverty” for drug use and high crime.
= = =

For democracy to work, the prerequisite is a culture in which the people recognizes the “other” — irrespective of how the “other” is defined in terms of ethnicity or religion or gender — as equal, and their interests and aspirations as legitimate.

This recognition of the “other” is missing in Arab culture. The “other” is merely tolerated in a subordinate status
///
EXACTLY. and all of this, is explained IN DETAIL in the Quran.

the Quran is their LITERALLY word of God. if you criticise it, it is blasphemy.
and it expressly FORBIDS the recognition of “other”.
it expressly defines the female gender as inferior.

the answers, the reasons, are THERE. in black and white !!!

...instead, the article calls that Muslim woman’s book “insightful” as to the “cause”. Ignoring the elephant in the room!

Leading Islamic scholars have themselves written articles, explaining why it is INCOMPATIBLE with democracy !
(yet in Western articles in english, they say the opposite.)

Islam doesn’t recognize ANY nation or government. ONLY ISLAM. it divides the world into exactly 2 parts.
the house of peace, and the house of war.

if we fail to understand this, especially with the demographics, then very soon, the WEST will be a
“relic of history”


14 posted on 06/11/2011 5:51:02 AM PDT by Elendur (the hope and change i need: Sarah / Colonel West in 2012)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

“the Arab-Muslim civilisation is one that is past its prime and is in its long autumn, heading toward ultimate collapse.”

Given that the A-M prime was 1300 years ago, don’t you think this has been a rather extended autumn?


15 posted on 06/11/2011 5:54:30 AM PDT by TxDas (This above all, to thine ownself be true.)
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To: elcid1970
It’s all in the Koran, no discussion necessary

Actually it is not all in the Quran - islam has other holy books which explain what the dictation of the words of allah (the Quran) mean: these are the hadiths and sunnahs - the life of Muhammad and the sayings of Muhammad - Tabari, Bukhari, Ishaq, and Muslim.

Quran 5:33 The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive after corruption, making mischief in the land [those who refuse to surrender to Islam] is murder, execution, crucifixion, the cutting off of hands and feet on opposite sides, or they should be imprisoned. That is their degradation and disgrace in this world. And a great torment of an awful doom awaits them in the hereafter. Except for those who repent (and become Muslims) before you overpower them and they fall into your control.

Ishaq: 204 Men, do you know what you are pledging yourselves to in swearing allegiance to this man (Muhammad)? Yes. In swearing allegiance to him we are pledging to wage war against all mankind.

The Quran tells how to serve allah, the others tell how to serve Muhammad — and believers must do both.

Without reading these other equally “holy” books one would not know that: the first given half of the Quran (mostly taken from the Bible and the Torah) was officially abrogated by Muhammad saying the second given half is the last revelations of allah: nor that allah’s paradise holds only 72,000 martyrs...

16 posted on 06/11/2011 5:54:51 AM PDT by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: Clive

I think these facts are well known and have been recognized by enlightened Arab leaders for many years. The knowledge of the situation is vastly different from the development or implementation of a solution to change.

Although it is unknown or denied by many, there are many enlightened Arabs who have traveled extensively in the west, especially in America. They have actually lived here and gone to school. They know and understand the benefits of our society but they see and have great disdain for much as well. They have studied Phoenix and Tuscon and Palm Beach county and made their desert into cities very much like those here.

The crime, the destruction of families, the total absence of ethics and morals and honor are points of disgust. None of these traits of American society is acceptable. We conservatives disdain these traits as well, but we tolerate them even though they are detrimental to our personal lives.

To change, old men (and old Women) must die off. The sons and nephews and grand sons and great nephews are now becoming middle aged and are taking more and more responsibility and implementing the transition. It is of much importance that the CEO of the largest and extremely important Saudi trading company is a daughter, not a son. A very high placed executive in Saudi Aramco, an engineer I believe, is also a woman. She lives and works in Aramco Houston because the times are not yet right for living in Dhahran.

The unrest we see is manifestation of the change. It lacks focus and direction. Iran is the example to be avoided. No tyrannical mullahs will be accepted. Dubai is the shining beacon on the hill. Moderation, jobs and freedom...... that will be the way.

These enlightened young leaders will prevail.


17 posted on 06/11/2011 5:57:15 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. N.C. D.E. +12 ....( History is a process, not an event ))
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To: Clive
Why does the author assume democracy is going to last?

History has shown it never does. Never. 200-250 years is about the limit till tyranny starts or the state ends. Once outside forces use the democratic process to divide and conquer, it is typically game over.

18 posted on 06/11/2011 5:58:23 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Eye of Unk

Given Islam is about 700 years behind the rest of the world, science and technology are not about to grant us that much time for this Cauldron to cool off.


19 posted on 06/11/2011 6:03:38 AM PDT by SIRTRIS
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To: PIF

wonderful points and info! abrogation is RARELY mentioned even here at FR.

...few know that abrogation is what makes taquiyya by CAIR so easy.
they quote the “nice” early verses, and don’t mention they have been abrogated by the later war verses, like 5, 8, and 9.
(especially when, as you certainly know, that the Quran is NOT written chronologically, but by the INSANE method of “length of chapter”. incredibly confusing...

also, some events in the Quran, CANNOT be understood without reading the Sira also, in addition to ahadith.


20 posted on 06/11/2011 6:12:57 AM PDT by Elendur (the hope and change i need: Sarah / Colonel West in 2012)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
...problem is, they have a habit of taking down other civilizations as they implode. It's kind of like a collective suicide bomber. Their civilization is snuggled up against the West's, any “KA-BOOM” and we get hit with blast wave, heat and ball-bearings!
21 posted on 06/11/2011 6:13:36 AM PDT by Netz
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To: Kolokotronis

Good point.

Will it be the Turks or someone else?


22 posted on 06/11/2011 6:13:38 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

Well said....I will have to visit your site regularly!


23 posted on 06/11/2011 6:15:50 AM PDT by Dudoight
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

Islamic civilization is economically unproductive in the modern world. The only thing keeping Islamism afloat is Arab oil money. Once Saudi oil is gone, so is Saudi Arabia’s ability to fund radical madrassahs (seminaries) and radical clerics all over the world.


24 posted on 06/11/2011 6:17:24 AM PDT by SauronOfMordor ((this space forr rent))
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To: Eye of Unk
Muzzies around the world would still want to kill everyone that doesn't follow Islam.

Even if the muzzies exterminated everyone on earth that didn't follow islam, they would then start killing each other because their different beliefs.

Islam is kept in check by force only.

25 posted on 06/11/2011 6:17:57 AM PDT by IMR 4350
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To: bert

” recognized by enlightened Arab leaders for many years. “
/// there is very little leeway to be enlightened about. their Quran is literally the words of their God, and CANNOT be changed. a “reformation” is impossible, as scholars like Robert Spencer have explained.
...and that is why many enlightened thinkers are killed, or declared apostate.

Wafa Sultan is one of the more wonderful enlightened voices from there. and they want to kill her.

meanwhile, Turkey, Indonesia, and other muslim country, are growing MORE fundamentalist, not more enlightened.

i grant you there are exceptions that should be applauded and encouraged. but, the trend is clear. if not, the “arab spring” will soon make it so. along with Iran making it’s first bomb in about 8 weeks...


26 posted on 06/11/2011 6:18:30 AM PDT by Elendur (the hope and change i need: Sarah / Colonel West in 2012)
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To: Elendur

You confuse Arab and Muslim.

Indonesia and Turkey are not Arab. Neither are Iran, or Malaysia.


27 posted on 06/11/2011 6:33:05 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. N.C. D.E. +12 ....( History is a process, not an event ))
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To: IMR 4350

i wish i had read your post #25 first.
absolutely true and accurate, and much more concise than me.
well said Sir!


28 posted on 06/11/2011 6:38:02 AM PDT by Elendur (the hope and change i need: Sarah / Colonel West in 2012)
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To: redgolum

Turks; it will be the Turks. Never forget, the Turks are always and only about the Turks. Mohammedanism, for example, is just a tool for them. That’s all it ever was, except perhaps during the Kemalist era. But...if one understands what is going on, especially in the 21st century, this can be used to one’s advantage or the advantage of one’s own omogenia. For example, young Greeks are moving into Constantinople in substantial numbers and doing very well there by all accounts. They know what and who they are dealing with. Remember, the Phanariotes ran that empire for centuries. I expect that at least the educated population of the Arab world understands this. I doubt the peasantry, like Westerners, understand it one bit.


29 posted on 06/11/2011 6:44:43 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: PIF

Well...... I am aware of the hadiths and sira, but I referred to the Koran itself because there are Islamic apologists who will deny the validity of the hadiths, even those accepted as authoritative commentary on the Koran for many centuries, if they say things that infidels might interpret as prejudicial to Islam.

For example, that Jasser dude said on FoxNews that there is absolutely nothing in the Koran (a sly dodge, no?) about how rocks and trees will speak on judgement day, and tell the Muslims to kill the Jews hiding behind them. Of course, they really get uncomfortable (i.e., enraged) when infidels comment on a middleaged Mohammed and his child bride Aisha.

“There are hadiths, and then there are hadiths!” is another angered response from the ROPers.

Anyway, whoever said the Arab world is a culture and not a civilization, is spot on.


30 posted on 06/11/2011 6:48:47 AM PDT by elcid1970 ("Deport Muslims. Nuke Mecca. Death to Islam. Freedom for mankind.")
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To: dog breath
"Cultures that do not adapt to changing circumstances are doomed. It is obvious that no Muslim country can compete in the modern world."

That's why their goal is to make the world, "less modern".

31 posted on 06/11/2011 6:51:43 AM PDT by Republic of Texas (Socialism Always Fails)
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To: TxDas

don’t you think this has been a rather extended autumn?

The or rather maybe A reason for this extended autumn can be explained in Arab or Muslim world’s isolation to areas few others considered habitable, and in areas that had no tangible valuable resources.

Due to its isolation and lack of resources it remained powerless to promote their 8th Century on the rest of the world to any extent capable of taking over.

Oil changed everything in their world except Islam, it enabled them some increased powers to affect the greater world. To the extent they have thus far failed to gain much control through the oil money relates to their tribal leaders keeping the majority of oil money to themselves.

Once either their oil depletes or better plentiful energy sources are found their oil will return to not supplying them with the money to ‘reach out” and islam will shrink back to its isolation. I do not think Islam will disappear completely because it is ideally suited to isolation and lack of resources.


32 posted on 06/11/2011 6:56:24 AM PDT by dusttoyou ("Progressives" are wee-weeing all over themselves, Foc nobama)
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To: Kolokotronis
That is interesting. A Turk I know mentioned something similar a while ago, and I honestly didn't think much about it.

Most Turks around here are not very islamic. A few are Orthodox (not Greeks, but they call themselves Turks).

Turkey moving into a more leading role would not surprise me much. The only question is what will Iran do? They are not Arab, but Persian, and many of the people do not align with the rest of the ME. The leadership is set on agitation, but there are some signs that is changing.

33 posted on 06/11/2011 7:00:32 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: redgolum

The Turks and the Persians have been enemies since the dawn of time. It won’t change.


34 posted on 06/11/2011 7:14:05 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Elendur
Too many people simply don't understand the numbers.

The PC crowd will say only 10% of muzzies are radical, not realizing they are talking about roughly 150,000,000 ready to kill and die for the moon god.

Considering the fact the PC crowd is always wrong, the number of radical muzzies could be double or triple.

On top of that, even the non-radicals by and large believe islam comes first.

A protracted war targeting the radicals only will never work. They multiply faster than you can kill them.

35 posted on 06/11/2011 7:20:54 AM PDT by IMR 4350
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To: elcid1970

As long as they follow Islam they will never change.


36 posted on 06/11/2011 8:23:04 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: TxDas; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; 668 - Neighbor of the Beast; Gen.Blather; Netz; ...

What we see in the Islamic world is an already collapsed culture, not one in the process of collapse. The danger is that the rats are fleeing their sunken ship... and hitching themselves to any boat that is available (ie: the West, India, China, Russia, South America).

And in the process, they are bringing the same ruin that they came from to *US*.


37 posted on 06/11/2011 9:15:19 AM PDT by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: gogogodzilla

“And in the process, they are bringing the same ruin that they came from to *US*.”

I can not figure out if I am experiencing 1936 or 456 all over again. Barbarians at the Gate and Idiots at the Wheel. I hope we are not doomed to repeat the same stupid mistakes obvious to anybody with a triple digit IQ.


38 posted on 06/11/2011 9:30:51 AM PDT by TxDas (This above all, to thine ownself be true.)
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To: IMR 4350
The PC crowd will say only 10% of muzzies are radical, not realizing they are talking about roughly 150,000,000 ready to kill and die for the moon god.

It doesn't matter if 10%, or even 1%, are willing to kill, as long as a large fraction are willing to feed, shelter, and give financial aid to the jihadis.

39 posted on 06/11/2011 2:37:21 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor ((this space forr rent))
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To: elcid1970
“There are hadiths, and then there are hadiths!” is another angered response from the ROPers.

There is only one authoritative set of texts: those I mentioned. ROPers are simpily spouting al taquia for Western public consumption.

The rocks and trees quote is on one of the other books, I forget which.


Anyway, whoever said the Arab world is a culture and not a civilization, is spot on.

-

Not a culture, not a civilization, but a politically oriented death cult:

The Shia and the Sunni are obligated to fight each other for the true version of Islam. If the 12 Imam returns for the Shia, then he will bring all humanity to Paradise, while the last two Shia are obligated to kill each other.

Sic transit homo...

40 posted on 06/11/2011 8:00:18 PM PDT by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: gogogodzilla

I erred, I said the Arab culture can IMPLODE, I wish it would, what really happens that it EXPLODES outward, hurting others. If it would all just implode that would be great.


41 posted on 06/12/2011 12:24:20 AM PDT by Netz
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To: Kolokotronis; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; Clive

Thank you, the 3 of you for your posts. These make for good reading and are exemplary for FR as a place for the erudite to put forth their points.


42 posted on 06/12/2011 12:54:43 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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To: Elendur

well said. too many are willfully ignorant


43 posted on 06/12/2011 1:12:32 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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To: Netz

Islam is the appendix of history, a useless appendage
it can easily still take your life if not excised from
the body politic.


44 posted on 06/12/2011 1:41:04 AM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: Clive
" Lord John Maynard Keynes — the revered economic guru of the liberal-left"

Gay Darwinian Eugenist liberal-left economic guru.

45 posted on 06/13/2011 1:50:14 AM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode (<<== Click here to learn about Evolution!)
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