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Is an Eclipse Described in the Odyssey (and does it date the return of Odysseus to Penelope)
Proceedings of the National Academy of Science June 2008 ^ | June 2008 | Marcelo Magnasco

Posted on 07/08/2011 11:33:43 AM PDT by wildbill

“Now when did Odysseus return to Penelope? The date is given with a precision most unusual in epic poetry.”

"Because the lines describing the alleged eclipse are considered suspect, we shall use other passages in the Odyssey to shed some light on the issue, without assuming an eclipse. Given an interpretation of certain passages in the Odyssey as describing astronomical phenomena, we will look for dates in which the phenomena match. We shall find that the most likely day matching these other phenomena is 16 April 1178 B.C., suggesting there may be corroborating information in the epic for the eclipse hypothesis. In other words, the passages we analyze appear to cohere.

Two important caveats: first, that if our interpretation of such passages as astronomical phenomena were incorrect, our calculation of dates and their probability or improbability would also be incorrect; and second, that even if correct, we get no indication whether the events narrated in the epic did happen.

(Excerpt) Read more at pnas.org ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: archaeoastronomy; catastrophism; eclipse; godsgravesglyphs; odysseus; odyssey; trojanwar
The case is still open that the Odyssey or the Illiad are based on actual events, but we know that oral traditions in many primitive cultures even today play an important part in passing down actual events from their heritage.

To me, The fascinating thing aboout the work of archeologists and scientists today is how these disciplines often corroborate the Bible or other oral traditions.

1 posted on 07/08/2011 11:33:47 AM PDT by wildbill
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To: wildbill
Cultures around the world have “oral traditions” of a worldwide flood. Still people don't want to believe it.

I also find i fascinating that drawings of primitive people DRAW ACCURATE pictures of dinosaurs with people. Still people don't want to hear or see that. The evidence of the accuracy of the Bible is there for ALL who wish to SEE.

2 posted on 07/08/2011 11:36:42 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: wildbill; SunkenCiv

ggg ping!...........


3 posted on 07/08/2011 11:39:23 AM PDT by Red Badger (Casey Anthony: "Surprise, surprise."...............)
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To: wildbill

I read most of the actual report. Assuming the actual astronomical phenomena were investigated properly as far as alignments etc., this is very unlikely to be coincidental. A stunning amount of detail to lead to a single date by 2 totally independent methods in a piece that was centuries old when finally written down.


4 posted on 07/08/2011 11:46:41 AM PDT by WoofDog123
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To: nmh

Can you post a link to a photo of a cave-drawing made by primitive people that shows a dinosaur and a human together? I haven’t had the opportunity to see this sort of drawing.


5 posted on 07/08/2011 11:58:10 AM PDT by ottbmare (off-the-track Thoroughbred mare)
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To: nmh
I also find i fascinating that drawings of primitive people DRAW ACCURATE pictures of dinosaurs with people.


6 posted on 07/08/2011 12:01:33 PM PDT by Rufii
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To: ottbmare

Sure.

View it for yourself on Netflix

Dragons or Dinosaurs: Creation or Evolution (2010)
Mythological representations of dragons appear in cultures worldwide, often resembling dinosaur species identified through their fossilized remains. Could this mean dragon legends are rooted in reality? This documentary seeks to find out. Interviews with researchers indicate that the existence of dinosaurs might actually help support the biblical story of creation and explain other mysteries of our cosmic origins.

Cast: Not Available
Director: Andre Van Heerden
Genre: Documentary
Format: DVD and streaming
Not rated. This movie has not been rated by the MPAA.

http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Dragons-or-Dinosaurs-Creation-or-Evolution/70132869?
strkid=576714844_0_0&lnkctr=srchrd-sr&strackid=58b271d11b1e371a_0_srl&trkid=222336

Here’s a book on it:

Are dragon stories the result of overactive imaginations or reality?
Most people believe that dragons are the stuff of fantasy. But, dragon legends can be found around the world—amazingly similar, compelling, and difficult to simply dismiss as baseless tales or mere lore. This fascinating new book traces the evidence for these creatures throughout Europe, China, the USA, South America, Greece, the United Kingdom, Babylon, and elsewhere. Whether battling saints or terrorizing Aztec Indians and medieval maidens, these creatures provide a fascinating link to man’s true history, and a shadowy mystery—lingering just beyond the edges of our understanding. This high-quality, full-color book includes creative doors, panels, and booklets throughout. Appeals to nearly all ages.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/product/Dragons-Legends-Lore-of-Dinosaurs,6818,184.aspx


7 posted on 07/08/2011 12:12:10 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: wildbill

The article is interesting.


8 posted on 07/08/2011 12:12:25 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: ottbmare

The shot of Raquel Welch with the dino in 10 million B.C. is usually good enough proof for me. Anyone?


9 posted on 07/08/2011 12:16:13 PM PDT by KingLudd
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To: nmh

I agree with the premise that dragon legends are based on the dinosauria. But you don’t have to have humans and dinosaurs existing at the same time to get there.

People who hunted and raised animals certainly knew basic animal anatomy. If they found skeletons in the ground they would be able to reconstruct them to some degree.

http://www.amazon.com/First-Fossil-Hunters-Paleontology-Times/dp/0691058636


10 posted on 07/08/2011 12:27:49 PM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud
“I agree with the premise that dragon legends are based on the dinosauria. But you don’t have to have humans and dinosaurs existing at the same time to get there.”

It's tough for a HUMAN to draw a dinosaur if they did NOT exist at the same time. All over the world, HUMANS have drawn dinosaurs that resemble dinosaurs. It is impossible to draw dinosaurs if they didn't coexist. WHY are you so resistant to common sense?

“People who hunted and raised animals certainly knew basic animal anatomy. If they found skeletons in the ground they would be able to reconstruct them to some degree.”

LOL!

No, the HUMANS that drew the dinosaurs weren't guessing. The odds that humans could draw dinosaurs all over the world are astronomical. You simply can't have a HUMAN in the U.S. draw the same kind of dinosaur than one did in China. It's simply not feasible. Humans and dinosaurs coexisted and that is WHY the drawings drawn by early humans are evidence.

Yes, the evidence disagrees with evolutionists. You simply can't have humans drawing images of dinosaurs that we can readily identify today if humans and dinosaurs did not coexist. These humans drew what they saw around them. It's really that simple.

11 posted on 07/08/2011 12:41:54 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Claud
View the evidence here:
View it for yourself on Netflix

Dragons or Dinosaurs: Creation or Evolution (2010)
Mythological representations of dragons appear in cultures worldwide, often resembling dinosaur species identified through their fossilized remains. Could this mean dragon legends are rooted in reality? This documentary seeks to find out. Interviews with researchers indicate that the existence of dinosaurs might actually help support the biblical story of creation and explain other mysteries of our cosmic origins.

Cast: Not Available
Director: Andre Van Heerden
Genre: Documentary
Format: DVD and streaming
Not rated. This movie has not been rated by the MPAA.

http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Dragons-or-Dinosaurs-Creation-or-Evolution/70132869?
strkid=576714844_0_0&lnkctr=srchrd-sr&strackid=58b271d11b1e371a_0_srl&trkid=222336

Here’s a book on it:

Are dragon stories the result of overactive imaginations or reality?
Most people believe that dragons are the stuff of fantasy. But, dragon legends can be found around the world—amazingly similar, compelling, and difficult to simply dismiss as baseless tales or mere lore. This fascinating new book traces the evidence for these creatures throughout Europe, China, the USA, South America, Greece, the United Kingdom, Babylon, and elsewhere. Whether battling saints or terrorizing Aztec Indians and medieval maidens, these creatures provide a fascinating link to man’s true history, and a shadowy mystery—lingering just beyond the edges of our understanding. This high-quality, full-color book includes creative doors, panels, and booklets throughout. Appeals to nearly all ages.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/product/Dragons-Legends-Lore-of-Dinosaurs,6818,184.aspx

Why speculate or argue with facts?

You can see for yourself that HUMANS drew what they saw around them. They coexisted with dinosaurs.

12 posted on 07/08/2011 12:45:09 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: KingLudd

13 posted on 07/08/2011 12:56:01 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: nmh

1. Deseret News reported two prospectors finding the carcass of a pterodactyl in the desert east of ?? Mojave?? late 1890`s-early 1900`s(?), photo included.

2. Two Native American mother and daughter whom I know reported a pterodactyl type giant bird in east Texas in late 1970`s from which they fled screaming; described it to a T.

3. Iroquois living along the Mohawk River in NY State described to the Dutch in 1640`s in 2 separate instances of a giant bird soaring down and snatching up their people and flying away.

4. Mohawk ``Talkers`` on the St. Regis Reservation Canadian side have legends of giant birds and giant monsters crushing their villages which they were unable to stop with their spears.

5. Flattened Gold nugget in museum here has figure of a mammoth or mastodon scratched into it: nugget was found in 1814 in the eastern Adirondack Mountains in a cave.

[sources by request]


14 posted on 07/08/2011 1:10:25 PM PDT by bunkerhill7
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To: wildbill
but we know that oral traditions in many primitive cultures even today play an important part in passing down actual events from their heritage.

Unless of course they were subsequently written in the bible. Then nothing is considered true or partially true by modern academia standards.

15 posted on 07/08/2011 1:42:01 PM PDT by Raycpa
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To: wildbill
phenomena is 16 April 1178 B.C

And the day before has become tax day. Talk about bad omens.

16 posted on 07/08/2011 1:44:22 PM PDT by Raycpa
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To: nmh

Because it’s not common sense at all. It’s a rather shoddy inference you’re trumpeting as a mathematical proof.

You seem to have a lot tied up in this idea of men and dinosaurs coexisting. Why I have no idea.

I’ll take a look at this book you’re waving around, because I have an open mind. I am not expecting to be impressed.


17 posted on 07/08/2011 1:57:23 PM PDT by Claud
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To: bunkerhill7; Antoninus

Please post your sources, I’d like to look these up. Monsters, Mohawks....it’s hitting all of my interests.

If they are cool, and I can find them, I will post the original accounts here.


18 posted on 07/08/2011 2:03:43 PM PDT by Claud
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To: wildbill
We do know that the Trojan War was a real event. Hittite records have revealed quite a bit of information about the area at that time. Troy was one of their allies/vassels.

Those records refer to a raid/raids along the coast as Homer describes Achilles making. And they contain correspondence to and about the King of the Achaeans possibly Agamemnon.

Homer, the Bible and Shakespeare have made up most of the important education of Western man. I would be reluctant to argue with any of these sources about anything.

19 posted on 07/08/2011 3:51:05 PM PDT by arrogantsob (Why do They hate her so much?)
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To: nmh
Apparently you don't believe any of the paleontologist time lines regarding the past. There is no physical evidence of the coexistence of these two species you would have to explain why there are no dinosaur-gnawed human bones laying about. Since these creatures were living tens of millions of years before the first mammals much less men and thrived under totally different climates it is hard to believe in any coexistence even on a Lost Continent. I believe the dinosaurs were used by God to prepare the earth for man. Conversion of a rocky, volcanic planet to a fertile land suitable for mankind took hundreds of millions of years. The massive vegetation broke up the rocks and the dinosaurs ate it provoking more break up.
20 posted on 07/08/2011 4:01:44 PM PDT by arrogantsob (Why do They hate her so much?)
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To: bunkerhill7

Mammoths/mastodons definitely coexisted with man. They were hunted by men and there are many drawings of them. The period of their existence was only 10s of thousands of years ago not hundreds of millions.

The problem of coexistence of men and dinosaurs is that the latter was the product of a whole set of conditions which no long existed when the former arrived. It is like finding a tv set in a primitive stone age village.


21 posted on 07/08/2011 4:09:10 PM PDT by arrogantsob (Why do They hate her so much?)
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To: ottbmare; nmh

There is no such drawing.

The creo liars make up everything they think they believe.


22 posted on 07/08/2011 4:44:42 PM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. N.C. D.E. +12 ....( History is a process, not an event ))
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To: bert

Of course there isn’t. I was just being polite. I thought he or she might post a link to some cave painting of a bison or something that had been misinterpreted as a dinosaur.

I have always believed, however, that tales of dragons came from the discoveries people made of dinosaur bones. Dinosaur and dragon really seem like two different names for the same creatures. If you came across the skeleton of a dinosaur of any kind, you’d have no trouble at all figuring out what it looked like. We have no trouble recognizing animal skeletons found in the woods today, for instance.


23 posted on 07/08/2011 4:56:43 PM PDT by ottbmare (off-the-track Thoroughbred mare)
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2745507/posts?page=59#59


24 posted on 07/08/2011 8:01:17 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Yes, as a matter of fact, it is that time again -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: 75thOVI; agrace; aimhigh; Alice in Wonderland; AndrewC; aragorn; aristotleman; Avoiding_Sulla; ...



25 posted on 07/08/2011 8:02:42 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Yes, as a matter of fact, it is that time again -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv

Just think, some homey will rap something about Obama (an Epic record) that will leave later generations saying, “None of this could have really happened, could it?”


26 posted on 07/08/2011 8:12:59 PM PDT by bigheadfred (Beat me, Bite me, Make Me write Bad Checks)
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To: arrogantsob; wildbill

[from a file, probably posted here a while back]

Blegen thought that VI was destroyed by an earthquake, and that VIIa, which he called a squatter city, was the Troy of the Trojan war. Interesting that Blegen speaks of an earthquake -- there is plenty in the Iliad which suggests some kind of natural disaster going on. Thucydides also records massive quakes during the Peloponnesian war.

My view is that Dorpfeld was correct, VI is the Troy of the war, but would agree with Blegen VIIa was a squatter city, adding that VIIa was leveled by the so-called Hittites. The city of the fine walls has now been shown to have been quite extensive, more typical of Anatolian towns than those of Greece.

From the records at Hattusas, it's obvious that there was plenty of piratical raiding going on, and that's probably what the Trojan War was. When the story was written down it got embellished somewhat by Homer. Wood notes that the name Homer means "hostage", which suggests a hostage exchange typical of ancient treaties.

But it wouldn't be at all surprising if the cast of characters involved in the raids (the leaders anyway) remained more or less the same.
In Search of the Trojan War
by Michael Wood
"These vague resemblances do not look like mere chance; Achaiwoi/Ahhiyawa; Alaksandus/Alexandros [Paris]; Wilusa/Wilios; Taruisa/Troia: each in isolation presents problems, but four resemblances is pressing coincidence too far." (p 207 of the earlier edition, italics in original)
"Was There a Trojan War?" Evidence from Hittite Records
by J.D. Hawkins
May/June 2004
A long letter from a Hittite king, probably Hattusili III (who ruled circa 1267-1237 B.C.), to the king of Ahhiyawa mentions that Wilusa was once a bone of contention between the two. The location of Ahhiyawa has been controversial since its earliest recognition in the Hittite texts in the 1920s. The scattered references to it suggested that it lay across the sea and that its interests often conflicted with those of the Hittites. What is now known of the geography of western Anatolia makes it clear that there could be no room on the mainland for the kingdom of Ahhiyawa. Furthermore, the references to the political interests of Ahhiyawa on the west coast mesh well with increasing archaeological evidence for Mycenaean Greeks in the area, so that it is now widely accepted that "Ahhiyawa" is indeed the Hittite designation for this culture.

27 posted on 07/08/2011 8:17:59 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Yes, as a matter of fact, it is that time again -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: wildbill; Red Badger; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; ...

· GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach ·
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Thanks wildbill for the topic, and thanks RedBadger for the ping!

This is going to be Greek Week on the GGG, looks like.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
 

· History topic · history keyword · archaeology keyword · paleontology keyword ·
· Science topic · science keyword · Books/Literature topic · pages keyword ·


28 posted on 07/08/2011 8:18:50 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Yes, as a matter of fact, it is that time again -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: bigheadfred

Instead, they’ll look at it and say, “what this flat thing? Must be plate. Let’s eat.”


29 posted on 07/08/2011 8:20:02 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Yes, as a matter of fact, it is that time again -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv

Here I was holding out some hope for the future. I guess that they would recognize a plate leaves a little room.


30 posted on 07/08/2011 8:24:35 PM PDT by bigheadfred (Beat me, Bite me, Make Me write Bad Checks)
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To: SunkenCiv

Interesting comments.

We have been aculturated to think of the Homeric Greeks as some kind of heroes when they would more accurately be considered as ancient Vikings farming part of the year and raiding/trading during other times. Maybe not as murderous as the Norsemen but slavers and, as you said, pirates.


31 posted on 07/08/2011 8:24:35 PM PDT by arrogantsob (Why do They hate her so much?)
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To: Raycpa
And the day before has become tax day. Talk about bad omens.

As I read somewhere, Screw March. Beware the Ides of April!

Cheers!

32 posted on 07/08/2011 8:29:51 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Rufii; nmh
I'll see you and raise you one!

Calvinosaurus

Cheers!

33 posted on 07/08/2011 8:38:15 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: nmh; wildbill

>>> Cultures around the world have “oral traditions” of a worldwide flood. Still people don’t want to believe it.

Perhaps in part because none of these ancient peoples would know if the extent of their observed “great flood” was global or not. No satellite views, no telephones from the next continent, no info at all beyond what they could see from their soggy perch.

Floods aren’t rare. Biblical deluges are.

But sometime look up the sketchy info on the great meteor that apparently fell in the Indian Ocean circa 3000BC. The tsunamis from such an event could tie together many of these stories in Africa, the Middle East, India, and South America.


34 posted on 07/09/2011 12:25:37 AM PDT by tlb
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To: bigheadfred

;’)


35 posted on 07/09/2011 2:34:52 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Yes, as a matter of fact, it is that time again -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: arrogantsob
They enjoyed a good raid. :') They lived settled lives, but like the Scandinavians, they were mostly caught between mountains and the sea. There was a (natural) climate peak, followed eventually by a cooling. There was a population explosion (again, like the Vikings), one result of which was the Lake Copais project, so they weren't just pirates. :')

The Mycenaean period ended by invasion, not all that long after the Trojan War. The pantheon of deities had changed by the time writing reemerged, and the more familiar alphabetic writing system arrived.


36 posted on 07/09/2011 2:42:39 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Yes, as a matter of fact, it is that time again -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: ottbmare
"We have no trouble recognizing animal skeletons found in the woods today, for instance."

You're kidding right? Animal remains are fairly regularly reported as human until they can be excluded by laboratory tests. Bear paws are frequently confused with human hands...


37 posted on 07/09/2011 3:18:48 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: nmh

Dinosaurs in Literature, Art & History

http://www.s8int.com/dinolit1.html


38 posted on 07/09/2011 4:28:42 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (,)
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To: tlb

When a flood seemingly goes on forever and is much worse than normal flooding in your known ‘world’ that may extend only a few miles from home, you’d describe it to younger generatios as something akin to a God-driven “global” flood too.

Any I was taught to revere my elders and what they say.


39 posted on 07/09/2011 9:54:16 AM PDT by wildbill (You're just jealous because the Voices talk only to me.)
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To: bunkerhill7
That's nothing. A whole slew of hard drinking rednecks claim to have been abducted by aliens, having their rectums forcibly examined and they hated it.

At first.
40 posted on 07/09/2011 12:03:18 PM PDT by BJClinton (Tweet your meat, lose your seat.)
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To: Joe 6-pack

I’m not talking about being able to recognize isolated skeletal parts. Only a real woodsman, or a person who kills his own food, could probably tell the difference between the isolated pelvis of different game species that are about the same size.

But when anybody encounters and entire skeleton, it’s pretty clear whether it’s a cow, a deer, a human being, a dog, a small rodent-like mammal, an elephant, or something you’ve never seen before. You can certainly look at a whole skeleton and recognize the shape of a horse’s skull and neck, even if you’re not a horseman, so you know you haven’t found the skeleton of a deer or muskrat. Naturally if some primitive person, or even a modern-day person, came across the newly-exposed skeleton of a Tyrannosaurus Rex, they could see that this huge thing was like nothing that had been seen before, and it doesn’t take much to flesh the bones out in one’s mind.


41 posted on 07/09/2011 12:06:17 PM PDT by ottbmare (off-the-track Thoroughbred mare)
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42 posted on 03/01/2013 6:23:10 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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