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Michele Bachmann Should Not 'Get a Pass' on Past Membership in Anti-Catholic Church
Catholic Online ^ | 7/17/2011 | Deacon Keith A. Fournier

Posted on 07/17/2011 1:06:48 PM PDT by Brices Crossroads

The news and blogosphere is filled with responses to the July 14, 2011 story by Joshua Green, the Senior Editor of the Atlantic, entitled "Michele Bachmann's Church Says the Pope Is the Antichrist." That is because it raises a serious matter which should not be taken lightly, and one which the candidate must address. First, let me share some personal context. I am what is often called a "revert" to the Catholic Church, someone who returned to the Church of my childhood after a long search for the truth. I love being a Catholic Christian. I hold an undergraduate degree and a master's degree in Catholic theology. I am a dissertation away from obtaining a PhD in Catholic Moral Theology. I am also a member of the Clergy, a Deacon. However, I write this article as a private and very concerned citizen.

(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: antichrist; bachmann; bachmann4obama; catholic; catholicism; catholics; catholics4obama; frfullofsleepers; michelebachmann; palin; papism; sarahpalin
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To: Just mythoughts

It is well evidenced that Catholicism overall fosters liberalism, in comparison with evangelical faith. http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html But women in leadership is itself an issue. http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/WOMENPASTORS.html


151 posted on 07/17/2011 2:18:59 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood

EVEN some Catholic clergy are anti-Catholics... let’s not forget this... some them are in jail for it...” <<<

The largest Church is the world is the Catholic Church, the second largest group are the fallen away Catholics, of which there are some Catholic clergy.


152 posted on 07/17/2011 2:20:31 PM PDT by RitaOK (We hang together or will hang separately. 2012, or bust)
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To: All

Obama will be re-elected, bank on that.....


153 posted on 07/17/2011 2:21:08 PM PDT by yield 2 the right ( Space blank until I come up with a nice Tagline.)
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To: RINOs suck

Has Donohue - or any of the others - taken a similar shot at Romney? Are they happier with Mormon theology?


154 posted on 07/17/2011 2:21:17 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: Brices Crossroads
She doesn't have make anything go away. Bachmann actively works on pro-life causes with Catholics like Father Frank Pavone:

http://www.jillstanek.com/2011/07/michele-bachmanns-pro-life-heart-and-credentials/

Bachmann recounted an inside story of the day Obamacare passed. “It was a Sunday, imagine that. Pelosi forced a vote to usher in taxpayer funded abortion on a Sunday.”

Bachmann recounted that her side decided if they were forced to stay for this vote, they could hold a church service.

They asked Father Frank Pavone to give the homily.

155 posted on 07/17/2011 2:22:34 PM PDT by RINOs suck
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To: Palladin; Gamecock
What has Gamecock said that was so offensive?


Built with SUSE Studio

If you can't appreciate the pure beauty of the violin after hearing this, something's wrong with your ears.

Or you can get raw with these strings. Either way, the violin is sweet yet lethal.

Do it!

156 posted on 07/17/2011 2:23:12 PM PDT by rdb3 (The mouth is the exhaust pipe of the heart.)
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To: Palladin

One of the things the leftists have done to undermine religion is to convince people (including some who are religious) that it is illegitimate for practitioners of one religion to believe that other religions are in some significant way false.

This is nonsense.

If you believe in a religion then you necessarily believe that others are false in those ways that they differ from yours.


157 posted on 07/17/2011 2:23:18 PM PDT by rogue yam
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To: Brices Crossroads
It is really admirable how quickly she threw her Church under the bus when she needed to make political hay.

Sometimes, you don't know you need to throw your Church under the bus until you really look at it.

When I looked closely at the two religions I was involved with I found that the Church is not Faith. Faith can be had without Church - organized Religion. I also say, a Church can throw its parishioners under the bus as well, through misleading doctrine.

I was raised in the baptist Church and when their greed threw me under the bus I left and have nothing good to say about that organized religion. I joined the Episcopal Church and when their greed and liberal social policies became apparent, I left them as well.

I'd hate to be held personally responsible for the human failings of those that lead today's organized religions.

158 posted on 07/17/2011 2:24:51 PM PDT by KittenClaws (A closed mouth gathers no foot.)
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To: Mr. K
Yet another attack on a Republican candidate, by other Republicans who see it as their mission to rip anyone who they don't support.

Which is how we ended up with McCain in the last election.

More entertainment for the trolls and libtards over at DU!

The Dems don't need to fight against us. We're more than happy to destroy ourselves.

OBAMA 2012! Cuz we'd rather have a Democrat we hate 100% than a Republican we like 80% !!!


159 posted on 07/17/2011 2:25:05 PM PDT by airborne (Paratroopers! Good to the last drop!)
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To: Brices Crossroads
It is really admirable how quickly she threw her Church under the bus when she needed to make political hay.

Sometimes, you don't know you need to throw your Church under the bus until you really look at it.

When I looked closely at the two religions I was involved with I found that the Church is not Faith. Faith can be had without Church - organized Religion. I also say, a Church can throw its parishioners under the bus as well, through misleading doctrine.

I was raised in the baptist Church and when their greed threw me under the bus I left and have nothing good to say about that organized religion. I joined the Episcopal Church and when their greed and liberal social policies became apparent, I left them as well.

I'd hate to be held personally responsible for the human failings of those that lead today's organized religions.

160 posted on 07/17/2011 2:25:12 PM PDT by KittenClaws (A closed mouth gathers no foot.)
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To: Calusa

The Gov. of NY is a Catholic, Pelosi, Kennedy’s - Catholic, Notre Dame so called Catholic University had a Priest arrested recently and Buffalos Canisus campus had Hillery Clinton speak at an event. I could go on with this, but the point being We Catholics need to get our own house in order. Most of our Bishops Priests and Deacons say nothing about our own Catholic politicans.


161 posted on 07/17/2011 2:26:15 PM PDT by reefdiver ("Let His day's be few And another takes His office")
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To: Brices Crossroads

Marxism—divide and conquer technique.

What is the point? No right to freedom of religion? No right to believe your religion is correct—when Christianity is the originally recognized belief system that shaped our government—that of Protestantism.

In fact, Protestantism was in perfect alignment with the US system of government which loathed centralized power. They were leery of the power of a pope, a head of state, no less, since it was a different government and the patriots knew that divided loyalties to governments never worked.

Protestantism exists because of anti-Catholicism-—The whole Enlightenment was to end the shackles of the Catholic Church—terribly corrupt at that time!!! So the Catholic Church brought it on itself and that there still exists some anti-Catholic feelings is because of actions of the Church. They are legitimate feelings.

Nothing on earth is perfect....even the Catholic Church. Do you think the Catholic Church has power over all other religions and can dictate their Theology? How fascist is that!

The fact is—the Church acted in ways of an AntiChrist which is documented in history. There are facts to prove it. Therefore, the Church had a Reformation. Why would it do such a thing! It is right to try to mend fences and correct opinions and rid corruption, but others have the perfect right to have beliefs, that are based in fact and proven by history.

This New Age Religion—trying to establish a One World Religion is also troubling....will the Bible have to be rewritten to accommodate all the different beliefs???? What “word of god” will be supreme? Ecumenical conjures up this “feeling” of moral relativism—we can just rewrite the Bible to accommodate all belief systems. To me that is extremely evil. No Word of God? or which word of god.

I am Catholic, but I do believe in people’s right to believe in their own religion as long as it is not in opposition to the fundamental principles of our Constitution.

Where is your distaste for Homosexual marriage....a much more evil and irrational concept than a pope is the Antichrist (in my opinion) So insidious, and a complete repudiation of God’s design and the BIBLE—the foundation (I hope) of the Catholic Church. The concept of homosexual marriage destroys the very worldview of children and Natural Law and teleological ends, much like Darwinism’s effect on the concept of the Bible as being true. You seem to be focusing your energy on pettiness, instead of fighting for the minds of children—the future of the Church.

That Bachmann’s church believes as it does, is their right and their freedom of thought....and they have some historical proof that there is some truth to what they think—and logic. Just look at the history of the Catholic Church and the understanding of the Devil. It seems extremely reasonable that he would infiltrate the hierarchy—it would even make certain sense to Catholics and I have seen it happen to a certain extent and the Church covering up the evil infiltration.

The Catholic Church has to get back to their proclaiming the Truth—much like Pope Benedict is doing now....but this attack on other Christians is divisive and unjust, especially looking into the actions of the Catholic Church, even in recent times. Lead by example. This attack is unjustified. You need to embrace their rights to their rational beliefs and try to encourage a change of belief. This will take time and extraordinary patience and a Catholic Church which is directed by mostly Saints and sticking to scripture and understanding of human nature. With God anything is possible so I don’t see the reason for any doubt. Get back to the importance of the Church, saving the minds of the children and the souls of man. This glorification of the homosexual acts in Western governments should be your biggest concern since this insidious Marxist worldview corrupts all the basic understanding of the Catholic Canon as so well developed by St. Thomas Aquinas—Natural Law Theory and will devastate the family and destroy the worldview and morality of children. It will pervert their very nature, and with your Catholic understanding, I know you understand God’s thinking on the corruption of children—the most evil and hideous sin, in the Church.


162 posted on 07/17/2011 2:27:46 PM PDT by savagesusie (Virtue is a habit of the mind, consistent with nature and moderation and reason. Cicero)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

>>> She raises her Synod for twenty years over your Shepherd who is the anti-Christ, so what does that make you? “ <<<

>>> “ Mee-OW!” <<<

Natural reason is not catty. I’m just floored that you can’t seem to make the logicical extension from one’s Catholic Shepherd to the Catholic laity, the sheep. Insult one, you insult all.


163 posted on 07/17/2011 2:28:35 PM PDT by RitaOK (We hang together or will hang separately. 2012, or bust)
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To: Brices Crossroads
You're pretty selective in the Catholics you choose to quote here about Bachmman, aren't you?

Catholic Matt Abbott on Bachmann:

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/110604

Interestingly, Bachmann gave a talk last year at a conference organized by the Cardinal Mindszenty Foundation. I didn't attend the conference, but I think it's safe to say that had she said anything even remotely anti-Catholic, the CMF wouldn't have made the audio CD of her talk available for purchase.

I asked William A. Borst, Ph.D., Catholic author and feature editor to the CMF, to comment on the Salon article. Dr. Borst replied in an email (slightly edited):

'Nowhere in the article did I find any substantive quote from Rep. Bachmann. I think it is shoddy journalism to try to create a paper trail of quotes from second-, third- and fourth-hand sources and attribute belief to their target by mere association. What may appear as exhaustive research on the surface often is nothing more than a writer desperately grasping for straws.

'To compare her [associations] to Barack Obama's relationship with the Rev. Wright is specious reasoning at best. Bachmann seems like a 'seeker' who is still searching for the religious truth. Obama spent 20 years listening to Wright's racialist rants and even had his kids baptized by this poor excuse of a minister. There is no comparison, unless apples can be confused with asparagus. So we really know even less about her views than we did before reading the article. If they give Pulitzers for misdirection, obfuscation and innuendo, Alex Pareene would be a strong contender.'

164 posted on 07/17/2011 2:29:32 PM PDT by RINOs suck
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To: Celtic Cross

Agreed


165 posted on 07/17/2011 2:32:12 PM PDT by fooman (Get real with Kim Jung Mentally Ill about proliferation)
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To: Ballygrl

I agree. While the Lutheran doctrine may be officially anti-Catholic, I have never met one who was so. Of course, in the liberal Lutheran synods there may be some who are because they adore homosexuality, gay marriage, socialism, and the state as their God. She has quit that church, so any continuing brue ha ha is the work of liberals, i.e., satan.


166 posted on 07/17/2011 2:34:16 PM PDT by rcofdayton
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To: All

One good thing about the Pope is that wicked cool hat thingy he wears. Mitre? What I’m trying to say is he accessorizes nicely.


167 posted on 07/17/2011 2:38:10 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire but I swear I didn't see him in the rearview mirror.)
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Comment #168 Removed by Moderator

To: Brices Crossroads
Wisconsin Synod (WELS) is perhaps the most conservative Lutheran body in America. Luther himself identified the "papacy" as the antichrist, and that was never recanted. The problem is that self-absorbed would-be big-shots like Fournier see this and think in terms of Hollywood movies, not the realities faced by Luther.

Honest Catholics who also know their history understand that the Papacy had becom a worldly corrupt institution, little concerned with anything but enrichment and power. When the pope excommunicated Luther and put a price on his head, simply for trusting scripture more than a gaggle of fraudulent cardinals, he earned a little payback. Whether any WELS member believes this today seems to be of historic interest only. I thought we got past this shit with Jack Kennedy, but I guess not.

169 posted on 07/17/2011 2:39:14 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

Agree. We have a very bad dude in the whitehouse. Who is the more likable, smart and electable conservative in the lineup?

Not Romney, Not Newt. Pawlenty?


170 posted on 07/17/2011 2:40:31 PM PDT by fooman (Get real with Kim Jung Mentally Ill about proliferation)
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To: Palladin
Your imagination is of little interest or value. Why don't you do some homework instead of sitting there with your thumb up your a&&.
171 posted on 07/17/2011 2:41:59 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: Desdemona

No one knows where they are going upon the flesh’s passing. We Catholics certainly don’t. This morning, the priest’s homily was very much about this and he said, isn’t it wonderful that only God will be our judge on that matter. It’s true. We just have to live by His commands and hope that our sins are forgiven when the time comes. “ <<<

Desdemona, it’s obvious you have never been a protestant. You know nothing about their “blessed arrogance” er,...
“assurance”. /s


172 posted on 07/17/2011 2:43:42 PM PDT by RitaOK (We hang together or will hang separately. 2012, or bust)
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To: ex-snook
It spite of the shuck and jiving, is still a fact that the GOP has never nominated a Catholic for President

How many have run? Who?

173 posted on 07/17/2011 2:45:21 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: Mr. K

So, now, BEING PROTESTANT is against the law???


174 posted on 07/17/2011 2:45:47 PM PDT by RaceBannon (Ron Paul is to the Constitution what Fred Phelps is to the Bible.)
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To: achilles2000

Of course


175 posted on 07/17/2011 2:45:51 PM PDT by fooman (Get real with Kim Jung Mentally Ill about proliferation)
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To: Mr. K

Are not all Protestant Churches “anti-Catholic” in a tiny way. I mean they are Protestant Churches. They came from protest aganist the Catholic Church.. Good Grief.


176 posted on 07/17/2011 2:46:22 PM PDT by therut
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To: Palladin
Bachmann is too right-wing evangelical for my taste. These people do not believe that Catholics are Christians. They are smug in believing they are the only Christians who have been saved by the Precious Blood of Christ.

This is why it would be a mistake to nominate Bachmann. Catholics make up 23-26% of the US population. You're not going to convince them that Bachmann is not anti-Catholic. Add to that the 26% of voters who are unaffiliated, who would consider her a religious fanatic, and you have approximately a majority. Then there's the fact that no President since Lincoln has ever been elected from the House of Representatives. (In fact, he's the only one, I believe, since John Q. Adams was in the House after his presidency and Ford was vice president before succeeding to president).

177 posted on 07/17/2011 2:48:45 PM PDT by giotto
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To: airborne

OBAMA 2012! Cuz we’d rather have a Democrat we hate 100% than a Republican we like 80% !!!

***************************************

Excellent, superb, even inspired summary.


178 posted on 07/17/2011 2:49:29 PM PDT by Psalm 144 (Voodoo Republicans: Don't read their lips - watch their hands.)
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To: RINOs suck

As a long time freeper, it is distressing that we are spending so much time on this.


179 posted on 07/17/2011 2:49:59 PM PDT by fooman (Get real with Kim Jung Mentally Ill about proliferation)
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To: RitaOK
Desdemona, it’s obvious you have never been a protestant. You know nothing about their “blessed arrogance” er,... “assurance”. /s

While this is true, I have been hanging out on the Religion Forum for the better part of nine years. Forced me to learn apologetics, that's for sure.

180 posted on 07/17/2011 2:49:59 PM PDT by Desdemona ( If trusting the men in the clergy was a requirement for Faith, there would be no one in the pews.)
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To: Upbeat

As an Evangelical Christian, it never occurred to me to vote for or against him because of his religion.


Unfortunately everyone does not do what you do. Romney is catching some religious flak this year.


181 posted on 07/17/2011 2:51:00 PM PDT by ex-snook ("Above all things, truth beareth away the victory")
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To: Palladin

That’s why we had a reformation, to purge the dogmatic foreign latin from worship.


182 posted on 07/17/2011 2:51:41 PM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 ....Flash mobs are trickle down leftwing REDISTRIBUTION))
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To: giotto
You're not going to convince them that Bachmann is not anti-Catholic.

That dumb argument. She works with pro-life Catholic groups and Father Frank Pavone as I have documented.

These sort of arguments are the ones liberals use that have no merit whatsoever.

183 posted on 07/17/2011 2:53:00 PM PDT by RINOs suck
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To: Brices Crossroads
So . . . this means that Wisconsin Synod Lutherans shouldn't be eligible for the Presidency?

How about Missouri Synod Lutherans? They still officially subscribe to the idea that the Pope is the "antichrist," right? Maybe they should be disqualified from office as well.

While we're at it, I'm sure there are Jews who resent people who believe they're going to hell because they aren't "saved." Why don't we make sure no one who has ever been a member of any church that believes only chr*stians are "saved" ever gets elected to anything?

People are such crybabies today!

184 posted on 07/17/2011 2:53:11 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
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To: OpusatFR

“I have no intention of voting for Bachman. She can’t win”

In the unlikely event that Bachmann were nominated she could kiss PA, Ohio, Wisconsin, and Michigan, with their heavy Catholic populations goodbye right off the bat.


185 posted on 07/17/2011 2:55:15 PM PDT by Brices Crossroads
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To: Palladin
Bachmann is too right-wing evangelical for my taste. These people do not believe that Catholics are Christians. They are smug in believing they are the only Christians who have been saved by the Precious Blood of Christ.

Let's pass a Constitutional amendment that says only Universalists can be elected President! [/sarcasm]

186 posted on 07/17/2011 2:56:14 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
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To: Brices Crossroads

This is just some liberal Catholic outriders who have no problem supporting “Catholics” Pelosi, Kerry, Kennedy, Leahy, Mikulski, etc., etc., when they help abort millions of babies and reward law-breaking illegal aliens.

Bachman or Obama - which one would you want sitting in judgment on you if you were a Catholic?


187 posted on 07/17/2011 2:56:41 PM PDT by oldbill
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To: Clintonfatigued; sickoflibs

The original source is “The Atlantic”.


188 posted on 07/17/2011 2:59:33 PM PDT by Impy (Don't call me red.)
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To: ex-snook

They did nominate a Catholic for Vice President.


189 posted on 07/17/2011 3:01:00 PM PDT by oldbill
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To: Mr. K

How many Catholics voted for the Muslim we now have in the White House and this scribe doesn’t want bachman. Maybe they like the Mormon better.


190 posted on 07/17/2011 3:02:56 PM PDT by Venturer
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To: silverleaf
Should the Pope “get a pass” on past membership in an anti-Jewish, anti-Protestant Church?

LOL!

191 posted on 07/17/2011 3:04:26 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
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To: Palladin

You have never been to a Wisconsn synod Lutheran Church, have you and what is preached on a Sunday.. You may want to visit and see what is preached before you start spouting igorance..


192 posted on 07/17/2011 3:09:05 PM PDT by scbison
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To: RitaOK

“Floored” as in your reasoning can’t rise off of it to realize that Lutherans go by a different church model than Catholics do?

My tomcats can reason better than this.


193 posted on 07/17/2011 3:09:46 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Hawk)
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To: muir_redwoods
To one degree or another, isn’t every Protestant church at least a little anti-Catholic? Would they just be Catholics if they weren’t?

Oh, but that was back in the Bad Old Days when people actually believed their religions. We're past that now. In fact, we don't have "religions" any more; we have "faith traditions!" [/sarcasm]

Funny how right wing Catholics can criticize Masonry for being indifferentist and then turn right around and demand that Protestants not be Protestant but rather members of some nameless general "ecumenical" chr*stianity.

194 posted on 07/17/2011 3:10:07 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
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To: Desdemona; Brices Crossroads; Celtic Cross

” I’m reading through this thread wondering, “Did anybody read the Gospel this morning????????” <<<

Me too. I did, I did!!

Also, I read where this Reading can certainly be applied to “within the Church”. Jesus spoke to the crowd of the seed, but it was to only the disciples that he actually explains the parable. The good seed are the children of God. You know how many are deeply disturbed with the liberties taken in the western Church;the kneelers gone, the once centered Tabernacle lost into corners, down hallways, pablum, etc., and a general state of lapsed piety, dress and behaviour? The Reading calms us to wait as patiently with our brethren IN THE CHURCH, as our Lord waits on us to repent. To wait for the harvest to separate the wheat from the chafe, the tares, lest we tear up wheat in ridding the tares. The Reading spoke straight at me.


195 posted on 07/17/2011 3:11:35 PM PDT by RitaOK (We hang together or will hang separately. 2012, or bust)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

UUs aren’t nearly as open minded as you’d logically expect.


196 posted on 07/17/2011 3:11:38 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Hawk)
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To: plain talk

As a conservartive Lutheran, politics is never mentioned in sermons, it is frowned upon.. They preach the law to show us our sins and need for a Savior and then the Gospel to proclaimed we are saved.. You go to any WELS, LCMS or ELS Lutheran church and this what you will.


197 posted on 07/17/2011 3:12:18 PM PDT by scbison
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To: BipolarBob
One good thing about the Pope is that wicked cool hat thingy he wears. Mitre? What I’m trying to say is he accessorizes nicely.

That was funny. Think they are rolling in the aisles?

198 posted on 07/17/2011 3:13:04 PM PDT by bobzeetwin
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To: Brices Crossroads

If rabble rousers like you get their way. Funny that nobody ever seems to complain about Ronald Reagan’s church.


199 posted on 07/17/2011 3:14:31 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Hawk)
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To: Jim Scott

All Protestant faiths are founded on Luther, Calvin, Zwigili and they pretty much thought the same way about the Pope and Catholic Church. You might want to read up on your church history.


200 posted on 07/17/2011 3:16:00 PM PDT by scbison
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