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Michele Bachmann Should Not 'Get a Pass' on Past Membership in Anti-Catholic Church
Catholic Online ^ | 7/17/2011 | Deacon Keith A. Fournier

Posted on 07/17/2011 1:06:48 PM PDT by Brices Crossroads

The news and blogosphere is filled with responses to the July 14, 2011 story by Joshua Green, the Senior Editor of the Atlantic, entitled "Michele Bachmann's Church Says the Pope Is the Antichrist." That is because it raises a serious matter which should not be taken lightly, and one which the candidate must address. First, let me share some personal context. I am what is often called a "revert" to the Catholic Church, someone who returned to the Church of my childhood after a long search for the truth. I love being a Catholic Christian. I hold an undergraduate degree and a master's degree in Catholic theology. I am a dissertation away from obtaining a PhD in Catholic Moral Theology. I am also a member of the Clergy, a Deacon. However, I write this article as a private and very concerned citizen.

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: antichrist; bachmann; bachmann4obama; catholic; catholicism; catholics; catholics4obama; frfullofsleepers; michelebachmann; palin; papism; sarahpalin
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To: HiTech RedNeck

EXACTLY RIGHT!! Why this idea that being a member of a specific denomination is the equivalent of being a Christian keeps coming up -— just bizarre.

301 posted on 07/17/2011 5:09:35 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: DesertRhino

“This might matter to me,,, if i wasn’t treated to a continous stream of Roman catholic threads that are very disrespectful of protestants. Arrogant statements that only the catholics are the true church,, endless claims that Christ himself intended a line of popes and picked the first one,,endless caterwalling that the vatican is open to one sided reuniting with other christians. (meaning fully accept the pope as your leader, and all teachings of the catholics,, and we will accept you)
So no wounded cries will be listened to today.”


302 posted on 07/17/2011 5:11:22 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: Mr. K
Considering she left that church just before she announced, I figure she knew it was a clear case.

If you go to a church where doctrine is espoused that the Pope is the Anti-Christ, it's fair to say you have some 'splaining to do in the context of a Presidential election.

That's not to say it's worse than Obama and Wright, it's not.

But when you ascribe the foundation of evil to a sect/religion that 20-25% of the people in the country believe got some 'splaining to do.

303 posted on 07/17/2011 5:14:49 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: AdamBomb

With all due respect, one cannot blaspheme against a denomination — only against God. I do assume you’re not equating God and the Catholic Church as being one and the same? At least I HOPE that’s not what you’re trying to say!

304 posted on 07/17/2011 5:23:17 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: RitaOK

It isn’t arrogance to believe Scripture — and Scripture says over and over that one can absolutely be assured of salvation — through the power of Christ’s blood. “For by grace are we saved and not of ourselves lest any man should boast” (just one example, but there are many many more!) Of course one must accept Scripture as authoritative.

305 posted on 07/17/2011 5:29:27 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: Palladin
No, they believe you can only be saved by faith WITHOUT works in the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.Eph.2:8-9, Tit.3:5)

That is not the same Gospel that the RCC preaches.

306 posted on 07/17/2011 5:32:59 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: Coldwater Creek

“The Bible is full of verses on salvation assurance. Look up 1 John 5:13.

What would even be the point of accepting Jesus as your personal Savior, if you didn’t believe that you were going to Heaven?

I have perfect peace that when I die, I will be immediately in the presence of the Lord. No arrogance here, just trust the scriptures.”


307 posted on 07/17/2011 5:42:02 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: Mr. K
Michele Bachmann Should Not 'Get a Pass' on Past Membership in Anti-Catholic Church

Why not? All the anti-Catholic Catholics in the Obama administration do.

308 posted on 07/17/2011 5:42:16 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand ("America will cease to be great when America ceases to be good." -- Welcome to deToqueville.)
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To: fortheDeclaration

Not quite. We believe that works are a PRODUCT of being in-dwelt with the Holy Spirit, not a separate way to Heaven. It is part of the sanctification process, not the justified — which only occurs once (according to Scripture) when one comes to faith in Christ.

309 posted on 07/17/2011 5:48:19 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: RitaOK; All

“My dear friend. The People of God were never left without their earthly Shepherd. Your concept of the keyes of the Kingdom has been converted, perverted, re-designed, to frequently mean the dern “Concordance”, or Bible keyes to find scriptures.
The keyes of the kingdom were given to Peter from the mouth of Christ Jesus, and quite easily rebuke Article Four as you refer. The OT establishes the sure keyes given to the chief steward, in the absence of the Master. That was not just a pleasant story, it was the pattern to which Jesus confers on Peter, the first father of the Church.”

Thank you make my point clear. Yours is an orthodox Roman Catholic view....and I don’t intend to spend time going in circles arguing because it accomplishes nothing. However, the orthodox Protestant view is that Christ is the ONLY mediator and that the Apostle Peter never was in any way shape form or fashion the “Father or Pope” of anything. Especially not the Body of Christ...all true believers in Jesus Christ, God the Son. Other interpretations of scripture are in error.

So, we are 180 apart on this issue. However, I don’t question your personnel faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Also, I don’t denigrate the current Pope as a man. The issue is the office.

But, the issue of the post is Michelle Bachmann. Only Roman Catholics can say if she is unsavory to them. However, in reality any conservative protestant is never going to agree that the Papacy is a valid office. So, all conservative protestants must equally be unsavory.

Brices Crossroads in a previous posting stated that Sarah Palin is a former Roman Catholic that changed affiliation. Isn’t that apostacy in the eyes of true Roman Catholics?

310 posted on 07/17/2011 5:54:56 PM PDT by Sola Veritas (Trying to speak truth - not always with the best grammar or spelling)
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To: RitaOK

I remember the poster as one starting several vanities on why Michele Bachmann has no shot. It’s quite sad that good conservatives have to smear one of their own just because they’re so obsessed with Palin.

311 posted on 07/17/2011 6:05:40 PM PDT by ejdrapes (Can we keep our attacks focused on the real enemy: Obama)
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To: buccaneer81

I am smoking the cigar of truth!

There is no chance that Obama will lose in 2012, no viable candidates on our side...Sarah and Michelle are damaged goods to most of the voting public and the others are nobodies, the majority of voters will stay with Obama(at least they know what to expect from him) rather than take a chance on someone else and new for POTUS.

312 posted on 07/17/2011 6:07:31 PM PDT by yield 2 the right ( Space blank until I come up with a nice Tagline.)
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To: Elendur; Conservativegreatgrandma; HarleyD; smvoice; metmom; 1000 silverlings; bkaycee; ...

You affirmed "Conservativegreatgrandma has been repeating that lie, she told friday: ““It may also be pointed out that the Catholic church’s official teaching is that anyone not a Catholic will also be going to hell”


"the only person dividing us, is Bachmann herself, by her own words and actions."

Yet besides other things that can be listed (advocation of torture, restrictions on Bible reading, etc.) your own faith has not been consistent either. But an autocratic entity presumes it can define what is consistent.

Pope Leo XIII, in Sapientiae Christianae: "But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself. This obedience should, however, be perfect...(and) must consequently be accepted without wavering.... Pope Leo XIII, in Sapientiae Christianae (On Christians As Citizens), Encyclical promulgated on January 10, 1890, #22-24.

Council of Constance, Condemnation of Errors, against Wycliffe [Sentence condemning various articles of John Wyclif]: 8. If a pope is foreknown as damned and is evil, and is therefore a limb of the devil, he does not have authority over the faithful given to him by anyone, except perhaps by the emperor.

[Condemned articles of J. Hus]: 20. If the pope is wicked, and especially if he is foreknown to damnation, then he is a devil like Judas the apostle, a thief and a son of perdition and is not the head of the holy church militant since he is not even a member of it. Council of Constance, Condemnation of Errors, against Wycliffe

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino 1441): "Whoever, therefore, have adverse and contrary opinions the Church disapproves and anathematizes and declares to be foreign to the Christian body which is the Church."

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino: "The sacrosanct Roman Church...firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation...

and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino, Bull promulgated on February 4, 1441 (Florentine style), proclaimed "ex cathedra" (infallible).

Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Encyclical Singulari Quidem March 17, 1856):

“There is only one true, holy, Catholic Church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded on Peter by the word of the Lord, outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church. (On the Unity of the Catholic Church)

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam: Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Bull promulgated on November 18, 1302.

Fifth Lateran Council: Moreover, since subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ's faithful, as we are taught by the testimony of both sacred scripture and the holy fathers, and as is declared by the constitution of pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, also our predecessor, which begins Unam sanctam, we therefore...renew and give our approval to that constitution... Fifth Lateran CouncilSession 11, 19 December 1516,

Pope Pius XII, Ad Apostolorum Principis: "We teach,...We declare that the Roman Church by the Providence of God holds the primacy of ordinary power over all others, and that this power of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, which is truly episcopal, is immediate. Toward it, the pastors and the faithful of whatever rite and dignity, both individually and collectively, are bound by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, not only in matters which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church spread throughout the whole world, in such a way that once the unity of communion and the profession of the same Faith has been preserved with the Roman Pontiff, there is one flock of the Church of Christ under one supreme shepherd. This is the teaching of the Catholic truth from which no one can depart without loss of faith and salvation." Pope Pius XII, Ad Apostolorum Principis (On Communism And The Church In China), Encyclical Promulgated on June 29, 1958, #46.

Pope Pius X, Iucunda Sane: "...We cannot but remind all, great and small, as Pope St. Gregory did, of the absolute necessity of having recourse to this Church in order to have eternal salvation, to follow the right road of reason, to feed on the truth, to obtain peace and even happiness in this life." Pope Pius X, Iucunda Sane (On Pope Gregory the Great), Encyclical promulgated on March 12, 1904, #9.

Pope Boniface I, Epistle Ad Thessalon: "Whosoever has cut himself off from the Church of Rome has become an alien to Christianity." Pope Boniface I, Epistle Ad Thessalon, LAF, vol IX:57; FOC, p 324 (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 4: "The Book of Christians", Chapter 2: "Those Who Reject Christ's Church Are Anti-Christian").

Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore: Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff.. Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, #8

Pope Pius IX, Amantissimus: “There are other, almost countless, proofs drawn from the most trustworthy witnesses which clearly and openly testify with great faith, exactitude, respect and obedience that all who want to belong to the true and only Church of Christ must honor and obey this Apostolic See and Roman Pontiff." Pope Pius IX, Amantissimus (On The Care Of The Churches), Encyclical promulgated on April 8, 1862, # 3.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9): The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium. Satis Cognitum (# 9): June 29, 1896:

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos: "No one is found in the one Church of Christ, and no one perseveres in it, unless he acknowledges and accepts obediently the supreme authority of St. Peter and his legitimate successors." Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, PTC:873,

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam:

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

"If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily say that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says that there is only one fold and one shepherd (Jn.10:16). Whoever, therefore, resists this authority, resists the command of God Himself. " Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302)

Pope Pelagius II, Quod Ad Dilectionem: Those not willing to be at agreement in the Church of God cannot abide with God. For the Church of God is established among those known to preside over the Apostolic Sees, and whoever separates himself from these Sees is manifestly in schism." Pope Pelagius II, Quod Ad Dilectionem,"

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis: "They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous error who believe that they can accept Christ as the Head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible head, broken the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it... Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (On the Mystical Body of Christ), Encyclical promulgated on June 29, 1943, #41-42, 69.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum: St. Augustine denies that anyone who dissents from the Roman faith can be a Catholic. "You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held" (Sermo cxx., n. 13).

St. Ambrose, "Expl. of Luke: "The Lord severed the Jewish people from His kingdom, and heretics and schismatics are also severed from the kingdom of God and from the Church. Our Lord makes it perfectly clear that every assembly of heretics and schismatics belongs not to God, but to the unclean spirit." St. Ambrose, "Expl. of Luke", ch.7, 91-95; PL 15; SS, vol. II, p. 85, (quoted in The Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 4: "The Book of Christians", Chapter 2: "Those Who Reject Christ's Church are Anti-Christian").

St. Thomas Aquinas: It is also shown that to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation. For Cyril says in his Thesaurus: “Therefore, brethren, if we imitate Christ so as to hear his voice remaining in the Church of Peter and so as not be puffed up by the wind of pride, lest perhaps because of our quarrelling the wily serpent drive us from paradise as once he did Eve.” And Maximus in the letter addressed to the Orientals says: “The Church united and established upon the rock of Peter’s confession we call according to the decree of the Savior the universal Church, wherein we must remain for the salvation of our souls and wherein loyal to his faith and confession we must obey him.” St. Thomas Aquinas, Against the Errors of the Greeks, Pt. 2, ch. 36

St. Peter Julian Eymard: "People often say, 'It is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.' That is not true! (quoted in "The Real Presence, NY: Blessed Sacrament Fathers, 1938, p. 245).

St. Frances Xavier Cabrini: "Many Protestants have almost the same practices as we, only they do not submit to the Holy Father and attach themselves to the true Ark of Salvation. They do not want to become Catholics and unite themselves under the banner of truth wherein alone there is true salvation. Of what avail is it, children, if Protestants lead naturally pure, honest lives, yet lack the Holy Ghost? They may well say: 'We do no harm; we lead good lives'; but, if they do not enter the true fold of Christ, all their protestations are in vain." St. Frances Xavier Cabrini, "Travels", Chicago: 1944, pp. 84, 71.

Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis (Concerning Some False Opinions Threatening to Undermine the Foundations of Catholic Doctrine): "Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the sources of revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation." Encyclical promulgated on August 12, 1950, #27.

"Nothing ever changes in the eternal Catholic doctrine." Pope John Paul II, LOR, #49, December 9, 1992, (quoted in The Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 6: "The Book of Sentimental Excuses", Chapter 4: "The Dogmas of Faith Admit No Alteration Whatsoever").

“He is a heretic who deviates from any article of faith.” The American Textbook of Popery, p 143, (quoting from the “Directory for the Inquisitors”).

Baltimore Catechism: "Outside the Church there is no salvation" does not mean that everyone who is not a Catholic will be condemned. It does mean that no one can be saved unless he belongs in some manner to the Catholic Church, either actually or in desire, for the means of grace are not given without some relation to the divine institution established by Christ." Baltimore Catechism, #3, Chapters 11 & 12, #138, 166-167.

Lumen Gentium: "This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation....Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved." Pope Paul VI, in Council of Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Promulgated on November 21, 1964, Chapter II "On the People of God", #14.

Catechism of the Catholic Church: "Outside the Church there is no salvation"

"How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21: PL 3, 1169; De unit.: PL 4, 509-536.] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the (Catholic) Church which is his Body:

... Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part One, "The Profession of Faith", Section Two, "The Profession of the Christian Faith", Chapter Three, "I Believe in the Holy Spirit, Article 9, "I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church", Paragraph 3, "The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic", Section III, "The Church Is Catholic", #846 (1992 edition, p 244).

The plan of salvation includes those also who acknowledge the Creator; foremost among these are the Muslims: they profess fidelity to the faith of Abraham and, with us, adore the one and merciful God who will judge mankind on the last day.” Lumen Gentium, Vatican Council II pg. 367, Austin Flannery, General Editor.

LUMEN GENTIUM: “The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (Cf. Gal. 4:6; Rom. 8:15-16 and 26) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (Cf. Jn. 16:13) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical [Protestant] communities...They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood...” (15)

313 posted on 07/17/2011 6:07:31 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: fortheDeclaration

More precisely, historically they overall believed that one is justified by faith alone - that being the instrumental means of procurement - but not by a faith that was alone. And this was and is evidenced in evangelicals manifesting more commitment and conservative moral views than RCs. Glory to God for those who do.

314 posted on 07/17/2011 6:08:05 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: Elendur; kosta50
The Cathecism of the Catholic Church now teaches:

In one way I don't have a dog in this fight (I'm not a chr*stian, though I'm a product of and very supportive of Protestant Fundamentalism), but I resent the typical leftist hypocrisy that says that historic "victim" groups can't themselves ever be guilty of anything--a note sounded over and over by Catholics who feel they have to play the "Know Nothing" card just because some Protestant churches actually still believe what they always did.

But you know, I have to ask: why does the "unchanged and unchanging" Catholic Church have to teach something "now" that it did not always teach? If the Church has had to change its teaching at some point in the past, how can any dogma be safe?

I believe the real reason Catholics resent Fundamentalist Protestants is that, unlike them, the Fundamentalists haven't sold out to political correctness, ecumenism, and "faith tradition." No wonder many Catholics sound like the Anti-Defamation League.

315 posted on 07/17/2011 6:09:22 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
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” It isn’t arrogance to believe Scripture — and Scripture says over and over that one can absolutely be assured of salvation — through the power of Christ’s blood. “For by grace are we saved and not of ourselves lest any man should boast” (just one example, but there are many many more!) Of course one must accept Scripture as authoritative. “ <<<

Your are quite right. I believe exactly as you, and remembering that there are caveats of great number teaching us first how to obtain the Grace of which you speak
and of which is availed to us by the Blood of Christ. These teachings are sometimes quite hard, and daily. I never heard a Catholic boast of his salvation, knowing that we Catholics fall daily and do not want to die in that state at some given moment. No one enters Heaven who is not perfect. Thankfully, there is Purgatory. I though do not long for Purgatory, but Heaven. Mercy is my song.

316 posted on 07/17/2011 6:12:57 PM PDT by RitaOK (We hang together or will hang separately. 2012, or bust)
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To: oneamericanvoice; reefdiver; YankeeReb
Sure wish Conservatives wouldn't be useful tools by falling for this stuff.

Oops. Pro-life was a typo. I meant pro-choice. The cliches and euphemisms sometimes blur their meaning for me. As a fairly devout Catholic my historical perspective is that the Reformation shook up Christianity in a positive way. And most people of Faith have more in common with each other than not.

317 posted on 07/17/2011 6:16:16 PM PDT by Calusa (The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles. Quoth Bob Dylan.)
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To: giotto

Some of the Catholics on FR have stated they don’t believe she is anti-Catholic, and that they fully intend to vote for her.

318 posted on 07/17/2011 6:19:09 PM PDT by Spirit of Liberty
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To: yield 2 the right

Not with this economy.

319 posted on 07/17/2011 6:19:25 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: yield 2 the right

I’m afraid you are right, but you didn’t mention the total lack of political knowledge of most Americans.

320 posted on 07/17/2011 6:25:49 PM PDT by Theodore R.
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