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We don't do water cannon, we rely on consent ( Theresa May, Home Secretary UK)
Mail Online ^ | 12:18 PM on 9th August 2011 (UK) | REBECCA CAMBER

Posted on 08/09/2011 5:14:02 AM PDT by expat1000

Vigilantes were forced onto the streets last night to protect their homes and businesses after police failed to materialise at many of the scenes of looting and violence which swept across London.

As officers lost control of the streets locals were forced to take the law into their own hands, arming themselves with sticks and chasing looters away from their properties.

In Dalston and Hackney, north-east London, Turkish shopkeepers and their families fought back against looting youths, before spending the night standing shoulder-to-shoulder in an attempt to deter further attacks. One man said: 'This is Turkish Kurdish area. They come to our shops and we fight them with sticks.' Despite increasing calls for the police to get tough with the rioters, Home Secretary Theresa May today sparked anger as she appeared to dismiss the notions that water cannons and even the Army could be used to ensure violent scenes are not repeated tonight.

As police were slammed for appearing to let looters run riot under their noses, Mrs May instead advocated a more softly-softly approach.

She said: 'The way we police in Britain is not through use of water cannon. The way we police in Britain is through consent of communities.'

(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
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To: PapaBear3625

And............the evidence against him presented in a court of law and the jury that decided he deserved the death penalty immediately??????????? Or does that not matter.


101 posted on 08/09/2011 10:38:22 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Lazamataz

ROFL.


102 posted on 08/09/2011 10:38:39 AM PDT by Alberta's Child ("If you touch my junk, I'm gonna have you arrested.")
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To: Scotsman will be Free

Which one?


103 posted on 08/09/2011 10:39:11 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Winniesboy

Was the dead guy in possession of a firearm?


104 posted on 08/09/2011 10:39:29 AM PDT by mewzilla (Forget a third party. We need a second one.)
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To: mewzilla

Was the gun the dead guy’s or the cabbie’s?


105 posted on 08/09/2011 10:40:36 AM PDT by mewzilla (Forget a third party. We need a second one.)
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To: fortheDeclaration

And the law that authorizes harming them as opposed to arresting them?


106 posted on 08/09/2011 10:40:36 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: mewzilla

There was a firearm in the car, in which there were the dead man and another person, the driver. That’s all we know for certain as yet.


107 posted on 08/09/2011 10:41:38 AM PDT by Winniesboy
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To: CaptainK

No Cap I wouldn’t offer them a cup of coffee, in fact.

I could shoot someone threatening me with harm or I could wait for the po po to demonstrate their legendary courage and arrest the rioter. However, you know when you need the po po in a second, they are minutes away, and at any rate, they are more interested in making a report than in tackling a rioter, so don’t expect them until the event is overwith.


108 posted on 08/09/2011 10:43:54 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Winniesboy
This is interesting....

Mark Duggan was carrying converted blank-firing handgun when he was shot dead by a single police bullet Probe into 29-year-old's death could take six months

109 posted on 08/09/2011 10:44:26 AM PDT by mewzilla (Forget a third party. We need a second one.)
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To: fortheDeclaration

Yeah. True. the rioters are criminals. But where is the law that says you can harm them? You can arrest them adn take them to trial.


110 posted on 08/09/2011 10:45:45 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: samtheman

You are right; all I know is what was reported by our integrity filled journalistic corps. Same as you.


111 posted on 08/09/2011 10:46:57 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: yldstrk

You would shoot them , but the police can’t?


112 posted on 08/09/2011 10:47:30 AM PDT by CaptainK (...please make it stop. Shake a can of pennies at it.)
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To: PapaBear3625

Papa

So do I understand you correctly that you are advocating mass murder of rioters?


113 posted on 08/09/2011 10:48:13 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: mewzilla

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns


114 posted on 08/09/2011 10:49:08 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: expat1000

consent?

what if the rioter requires the consent of police surrender?

what do they do play simon says to the death?


115 posted on 08/09/2011 10:49:18 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: Nebr FAL owner

If you allow the government to put down a riot by harming rioters, no one’s rights are safe including yours.


116 posted on 08/09/2011 10:51:06 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: yldstrk
So do I understand you correctly that you are advocating mass murder of rioters?

ABSOLUTELY!!!!

Act like feral, rabid animals and we will PUT YOU DOWN like feral, rabid animals.

117 posted on 08/09/2011 10:51:49 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Obama is crashing the United States on purpose.)
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To: Grizzled Bear

Nope you are wrong

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns


118 posted on 08/09/2011 10:52:03 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: yldstrk
If you allow the government to put down a riot by harming rioters, no one’s rights are safe including yours.

So, in your scenario, riots cannot be put down by any means that have teeth.

So the riots, in short, cannot be put down.

Which means total anarchy: Murder, robbery, rape, arson, looting.

And you are okay with all that.

119 posted on 08/09/2011 10:53:58 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Obama is crashing the United States on purpose.)
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To: 100American

what are you babbling about , first you say anarchy is not “allowable” then you say citizens can overthrow a government...your thoughts are all jumbled up


120 posted on 08/09/2011 10:54:12 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: yldstrk
Thx for the link, and I read the article :)

But I have two problems with it: 1) It's from The Guardian. 2) The article's so poorly written that I'm not sure who it is that's not making any sense: the reporter, the cops, the community organizers, or any/all of the above.

121 posted on 08/09/2011 10:54:54 AM PDT by mewzilla (Forget a third party. We need a second one.)
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To: Lazamataz

Yo are free to believe whatever you want, however the facts support what I said.


122 posted on 08/09/2011 10:55:04 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: yldstrk
Yeah. True. the rioters are criminals. But where is the law that says you can harm them?

Stopping certain felonies-in-progress with deadly force has been legal for citizens and police since America was founded.

123 posted on 08/09/2011 10:57:16 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Obama is crashing the United States on purpose.)
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To: Oztrich Boy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns


124 posted on 08/09/2011 10:58:16 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: yldstrk
You are right; all I know is what was reported by our integrity filled journalistic corps. Same as you.
1. Again, I hope you're being sarcastic, though I fear you're not (regarding integrity and journalism).

2. Wrong regarding "same as you".

I am not saying anything about how this started. You're the only one jumping to conclusions on that one.

What I AM saying is that it has to be stopped, REGARDLESS of how it started, and REGARDLESS of what it takes to stop it.

I'm not basing that statement on the murky account of something that happened days ago and is now beyond our ability to witness or analyze at this time. I'm basing that on what THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING right now. Which is: London is burning. London is under attack. The attackers are OBVIOUSLY thuggish criminals out to line their pockets with loot regardless of who they trample on and who they destroy.

Have you seen the pictures?

Have you seen the pictures?

Have you seen the pictures?

125 posted on 08/09/2011 10:59:07 AM PDT by samtheman
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To: Alberta's Child

Thank Heavens you have been graced with good sense


126 posted on 08/09/2011 11:00:04 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: yldstrk
Yo are free to believe whatever you want, however the facts support what I said.

Dude, I *went* to your article. The best you have is that there are some DOUBTS. No FACTS, but DOUBTS.

127 posted on 08/09/2011 11:04:04 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Obama is crashing the United States on purpose.)
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To: CaptainK

Correct me if I hae misundertood your suggested remedy ....to shoot them all?

I said I could shoot “a rioter” if threatened or I could wait for the po po. You are not smart trying to change my words....


128 posted on 08/09/2011 11:05:25 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: yldstrk
And............the evidence against him presented in a court of law and the jury that decided he deserved the death penalty immediately???????????

Per reports: He was being tailed by the police. He spotted the police. He pointed a weapon at police. He got shot by the police. Happens all the time in the US, especially when the police have certainty that the person pointing a weapon at them is a gang banger.

If somebody looking like Duggan, with the dress and mannerisms of a gang-banger pointed a gun in my direction, I would have shot him without hesitation as well, and I'm a civilian.

129 posted on 08/09/2011 11:06:47 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (When you've only heard lies your entire life, the truth sounds insane.)
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To: samtheman

Yeah, I was being sarcastic aobu tintegrity filled journalistic corps, should have said so, sorry.

Yeah I have seen the pics.

Yeah it needs to end, but how? Let it play out? Shoot them dead (which, I might add, is COMPLETELY ILLEGAL). Decisions decisions


130 posted on 08/09/2011 11:07:51 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: PapaBear3625

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns


131 posted on 08/09/2011 11:08:40 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Lazamataz

not legal, I must say


132 posted on 08/09/2011 11:09:21 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: mewzilla
He was in possession of a handgun which apparently started life as a starter's pistol or some such, and was converted to be able to fire live ammo.

Whether or not it was loaded or actually able to fire, being known to police as a gang-banger and then pointing what appears to be a pistol at them, is prime Darwin Award stupidity.

133 posted on 08/09/2011 11:10:53 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (When you've only heard lies your entire life, the truth sounds insane.)
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To: Lazamataz

This comes from someone who believes in a nation of laws, not men.

It may be difficult, it may be expensisve, it may be a challenge, but government has to act legally or it loses all credibility. Killing rioters and looters is NOT LEGAL


134 posted on 08/09/2011 11:11:25 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: PapaBear3625

Police get so antsy. They could have got him tomorrow.


135 posted on 08/09/2011 11:13:29 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: yldstrk
not legal, I must say

Incorrect. When Martial Law is extant, such as in the declaration of a State of Emergency, it is 100% legal to shoot to kill looters.

136 posted on 08/09/2011 11:16:37 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Obama is crashing the United States on purpose.)
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To: yldstrk
This is from late June...

Right to self-defence in homes to be 'much clearer'

But only at home, not on the street? If that's the case, color me confused.

137 posted on 08/09/2011 11:17:34 AM PDT by mewzilla (Forget a third party. We need a second one.)
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To: yldstrk
Correct me if I hae misundertood your suggested remedy ....to shoot them all?

In most parts of the US, deadly force is authorized for the purpose of stopping violent felonies, which specifically includes arson. The correct amount of force is the amount of force which is needed to stop the criminals. If things quiet down after 10% are shot, then fine.

138 posted on 08/09/2011 11:17:44 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (When you've only heard lies your entire life, the truth sounds insane.)
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To: Lazamataz

wow. Are you advocating martial law?


139 posted on 08/09/2011 11:19:00 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: yldstrk
Shoot them dead (which, I might add, is COMPLETELY ILLEGAL).

Perhaps in England. By US standards, if that's what's needed to stop the aggression, no.

140 posted on 08/09/2011 11:21:13 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (When you've only heard lies your entire life, the truth sounds insane.)
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To: mewzilla

Guess what, confused.

Yeah, you have more right to protect yourself at home than out prowling in the public arena.

However, even in the public arena, you have a right to self defense.


141 posted on 08/09/2011 11:21:13 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: yldstrk

I thought the guardian was a leftwing rag.


142 posted on 08/09/2011 11:22:59 AM PDT by monkeywrench (Deut. 27:17 Cursed be he that removeth his neighbor's landmark)
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To: yldstrk
Killing rioters and looters is NOT LEGAL

Here is an example of a simple earthquake and fire in 1906 establishing that it is 100% legal to shoot to kill all looters.

I'd say that's a clear example that your statement is utterly false.

143 posted on 08/09/2011 11:23:12 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Obama is crashing the United States on purpose.)
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To: yldstrk

Well, they could start with WATER CANON. Which is the subject of this thread, and which the NUMBSKULL who is quoted in the text of the posted article of this thread doesn’t want to use.

Now, I’m not saying you’re going to do a LOT with water canon, but it would show at least an ounce of resolve, which is about a billion times heavier than what’s been shown so far.

As far as what’s legal and what’s not legal:

a) I’m not taking your word for that since you’ve shown yourself totally unreliable on such judgments when you jumped to the conclusion that the cops “shot someone in the back”

b) What’s legal or not legal is not what you and I have been “discussing” here, is it? You’ve been promoting the thesis that this is somehow the fault of the police. I have been attacking that thesis. Neither one of us has yet offered any solution. All I’ve done is express outrage at 1) what the rioters are doing, 2) what the response of the top levels of the British government is, and 3) [not so important, I admit] your bizarre statements regarding all this.


144 posted on 08/09/2011 11:24:12 AM PDT by samtheman
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To: yldstrk
wow. Are you advocating martial law?

In LONDON, where these riots are insane and getting crazier?

Hell yeah.

145 posted on 08/09/2011 11:24:35 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Obama is crashing the United States on purpose.)
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To: yldstrk

Then anyone who kills an assailant while being attacked won’t be prosecuted?


146 posted on 08/09/2011 11:24:53 AM PDT by mewzilla (Forget a third party. We need a second one.)
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To: Lazamataz

Thanks for posting #143. That is excellent.


147 posted on 08/09/2011 11:25:51 AM PDT by samtheman
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To: yldstrk

I take back what I just posted. Water canon is BULL SH*T.

Shoot all looters.

Period.

Shoot to kill.

(I only mentioned water canon because the powers that be won’t even go THAT far.)


148 posted on 08/09/2011 11:27:47 AM PDT by samtheman
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To: mewzilla
Meanwhile....

London riots: Baseball bat sales rocket by 6,000%

Hmmm. Cricket bats not the sporting good of choice. Go figger.

149 posted on 08/09/2011 11:28:34 AM PDT by mewzilla (Forget a third party. We need a second one.)
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To: yldstrk
wow. Are you advocating martial law?

Martial Law:

Martial law is the imposition of military rule by military authorities over designated regions on an emergency basis—usually only temporary—when the civilian government or civilian authorities fail to function effectively (e.g., maintain order and security, and provide essential services), when there are extensive riots and protests, or when the disobedience of the law becomes widespread. In most cases, military forces are deployed to quiet the crowds, to secure government buildings and key or sensitive locations, and to maintain order
Martial law is appropriate when things have gotten beyond the ability of regular police and courts to control.
150 posted on 08/09/2011 11:29:10 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (When you've only heard lies your entire life, the truth sounds insane.)
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