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(LIVE THREAD!) Republican Presidential Debate #5 - Sep. 12, 2011 8pm/5pm: Tampa, FL (CNN)
2012 Election Central ^ | Sept. 12, 2011 | CNN/Tea Party Express

Posted on 09/12/2011 7:14:30 AM PDT by newzjunkey

Broadcast on: CNN

Broadcast time: 8pm EDT/5pm PDT

The Candidates:

Michele Bachmann

Bachmann is serving her 3rd full term in the U.S. House. Founder of the House Tea Party Caucus, she earned a Master of Laws degree, worked as a tax attorney, and was a foster mother for 23 teenagers. She is a member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.

Herman Cain

Cain is the former chief executive of Godfather's Pizza and former chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City. He lost the Georgia Republican primary for a U.S. Senate seat in 2004. He was recently the host of Atlanta-based radio show.

Newt Gingrich

Gingrich served as Speaker of the United States House of Representatives from 1995 to 1999. He represented Georgia's 6th congressional district as a Republican member from 1979 to 1999. He has a PhD in modern European history.

Jon Huntsman

Huntsman was Utah Governor, former ambassador to China under Barack Obama.

Ron Paul

Paul is serving his 11th full term in the U.S. House. He’s an ob-gyn and was Libertarian nominee for president in 1988. He unsuccessfully sought the Republican nomination for president in 2008

Rick Perry

Perry is the three term governor of Texas, from 2000 to current. He is a retired Air Force captain for former farmer. He has a degree in animal science.

Mitt Romney

Romney was governor of Massachusetts (2003 to 2007) and former CEO of Bain Capital, a private equity investment firm. He unsuccessfully sought the Republican 2008 nomination for president. He has an MBA (Harvard) and JD (Harvard Law).

Rick Santorum

Santorum served two terms in the U.S. House and two terms in the U.S. Senate. He became the Senate's third-ranking Republican in 2001. He was defeated for reelection in 2006.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2012; 2012debates; 2012gopdebates; 2012gopprimary; bachmann; cain; debate; debate2012; debates; fldebate; gingrich; gopdebate; hermancain; huntsman; jonhuntsman; michelebachmann; mittromney; newt; newtgingrich; noot; perry; ponzischeme; presidentialdebate; rickperry; ricksantorum; romney; ronpaul; santorum; teaparty; teapartydebate; teapartyexpress
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To: Irenic

Your analysis was mine to a T!


2,151 posted on 09/13/2011 7:29:14 AM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (Perry/Rubio 2012)
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To: swpa_mom

Well done, “conservatives”.

We have a man in the White House intent on destroying the economy and here we are, once again, in the circular firing squad.

The liberals are LOVING this. They don’t need to defend 9% unemployment, debt out of control, czars and everything else, all they need to do is point at “that” conservative, whoever she or he may be and say SEE? they’re bad, they did something 10, 15, 20 years ago that proves they can’t be president.

Why are we doing this? WHY?
_________________________________________

Well said! I kept thinking the same thing last night during the debate when each of the candidates took the bait offered by Wolf Blitzer to draw blood! I realize that they have their donors and supporters to make happy, but this nation has FAR MORE SERIOUS PROBLEMS to face.

I’m not sure I agree with Rush Limbaugh who says we have 14 months to save our nation. Yet, another 4 years of Obama is too frightening to contemplate. My goodness the Supreme Court alone is up for grabs to that Socialist if he gets another term!!!!!

Go ahead and flame me with high-minded principals, but I say this board needs to curtail the infighting, focus instead on the enemy, and then cast our votes for who we think can best keep Obama from winning another term. He’s the enemy.


2,152 posted on 09/13/2011 7:30:03 AM PDT by navymom1
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To: KansasGirl
[So more will come in and say “well, if we can sneak in and stick around for 3 years we get the benefits”.] "Only if you graduated from a high school in TX. You have to have graduated from a TX high school, been a resident for 3 years, and be working toward citizenship to qualify.

Thought this was worth repeating, since it seems to be lost in a lot of the back and forth. I see this as a situation in which the kids are at least trying to right the wrongs of their parents, by seeking legal citizenship after they were dragged here through no fault of their own instead of remaining underground and leeching off the system. If anything, IMO this isn't incentive for others to come here illegally, but for those who are here already (that we know aren't going to be deported no matter how much we demand it) to become legal citizens and contribute to the programs that they most likely used while they were growing up.

I also agree that it comes down to a states' right to deal with a state issue in the way that the People of that state want to deal with it. Good for Texas for listening to the voters, not like it is here in my state where the overlords in the state house constantly override the electorate!

2,153 posted on 09/13/2011 7:36:43 AM PDT by Taxachusan (I lurk, therefore I am.)
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To: editor-surveyor

So now you are kookie and uneducated when it comes to protecting your children? You must be a Ron Paul fan. Every year we hear at least one or two teenagers in our area alone die of meningitis because they did not have a vaccine, bet their parents may think different then you. And I guess those parents that opt out of cancer treatments for their kids are a bunch of brillance like yourself. As a result of that pharmaceutical witchcraft tens of thousands of lives have been saved through treatments, but somehow you find that offensive. Yes please educate me on that one.


2,154 posted on 09/13/2011 7:39:44 AM PDT by jerseyrocks
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To: navymom1
Generally you are correct but truth is we have some months to pick a candidate to run against the worst socialist ever in office.

Even if we do spill some beans and give a few things away we shoudn't since when have the demrats ever run on truth? They always follow the same pattern regarding us. They lie their asses off about us and our candidates(its all Bush's fault) and then repeat the lie. We face that no matter what.

2,155 posted on 09/13/2011 7:40:41 AM PDT by rodguy911 (FreeRepublic:Land of the Free because of the Brave--Sarah Palin 2012)
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To: rodguy911
That's just a little about Marco.

Thanks for the history. It'll be nice to see what sort of record he establishes. I'm looking forward to that.

2,156 posted on 09/13/2011 7:41:29 AM PDT by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Windflier
No problem.

We all are. Some think Senator/Governor/potus we shall see.

2,157 posted on 09/13/2011 7:46:31 AM PDT by rodguy911 (FreeRepublic:Land of the Free because of the Brave--Sarah Palin 2012)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie

They get benefits that LEGAL citizens don’t, thanks to Pander Perry. ReagAn signed a stupid bill granting amnesty to 2 million illegals, with the stipulation that the border would be enforced. Of course, this demonstrated weakness, allowing law-breakers to become citizens, opened the floodgates for tens of millions more. Perry is so bad on the issue that he criticized the tepid ARIZONA law. Yeah, HE is the answer! Best, Bob


2,158 posted on 09/13/2011 8:02:34 AM PDT by alstewartfan ("And your oarsman stands with his knife in hand, and his eyes spell 'Mutiny'" Al Stewart)
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To: combat_boots

Don’t forget Juanita Broaddrick! And Elizabeth Ward Gracen! And Eileen Wellstone!


2,159 posted on 09/13/2011 8:04:47 AM PDT by alstewartfan ("And your oarsman stands with his knife in hand, and his eyes spell 'Mutiny'" Al Stewart)
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To: CA Conservative

Actually, both of us are wrong. It stops two.

Gardasil has been used in prevention of two types of HPV infections, associated with approximately 70% of HPV cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardasil


2,160 posted on 09/13/2011 8:15:02 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
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To: Catholic Iowan
"The FDA has received no reports of brain damage as a result of HPV vaccines Gardasil and Cervarix. Among the reports that correlate seriously adverse reactions to either, the FDA lists blood clots, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, and 68 deaths during the entire run of the drugs. The FDA found no causal connection to any of these serious adverse events and found plenty of contributing factors to all — and all of the events are exceedingly rare."

In other words, none of the deaths was specifically linked to Guardasil as the cause - correlation is not causation.

2,161 posted on 09/13/2011 8:19:07 AM PDT by CA Conservative (Texan by birth, Californian by circumstance)
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To: navymom1

here here, navymom1.

The thread last night was sickening to read. Like you said, Wolf threw out the bait, and the bait is ONLY to provide the DNC a good commercial come next fall and so many were refusing to do anything except bash conservatives.

I really don’t understand it. Oh, some claim that it’s time to “rid the party of rinos, etc”......but meanwhile, other than Newt, who I give a TON of credit for firing back at the media, everyone just seemd to be oh too happy to provide wolf and the DNC exactly what they wanted.

Meanwhile......unemployment remains over 9%, but let’s not talk about that, I mean this one or that one did something 20 years ago that we just cannot let go!


2,162 posted on 09/13/2011 8:20:02 AM PDT by swpa_mom
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To: swpa_mom

I agree and what frightens me more than unemployment is the Supreme Court. If we lose control of that, our Republic as we know it is indeed, and without exaggeration, finished.


2,163 posted on 09/13/2011 8:23:33 AM PDT by navymom1
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To: rodguy911

You’re very kind where I didn’t believe too many of us would be. I hear your points but am extremely worried about losing control of The Supreme Court. If we lose that, we lose our Republic as we know it.


2,164 posted on 09/13/2011 8:26:44 AM PDT by navymom1
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To: navymom1

agree re: the SC. Wonder why Wolf didn’t ask any questions about that?


2,165 posted on 09/13/2011 8:30:43 AM PDT by swpa_mom
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To: mojitojoe

She cut her hair, she’s running.


My mother and sister just went for hair cuts too. Does that indicate they’re ready to throw their hats into the ring? LOL!


2,166 posted on 09/13/2011 8:31:01 AM PDT by Personal Responsibility (Government rushes to help the irresponsible and does little for the responsible)
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To: bvw

No worries. My own posts frequently suffer the same problem - and I should deservedly be hit upside the head hard for that “shitty parent” comment. Thank you for the relatively gentle smack instead of what I actually deserved!

You are right, of course, in that warts don’t mean automatic cancer. But, since most cases of cevical, and a large number of cases of vaginal cancer ARE caused by HPV, where is the problem in reducing the risk by using a vaccine? That is my thinking. We go to the beach, the kids get sunscreen applied. Just in case. They all get the MMR vaccine (as seperate doses - I still don’t trust the combined dose) as I am not risking their health down the line.
We, as one of the very very few things the UN actually was forced to do right by, I believe, the USA, even wiped out smallpox by vaccinating every last person on the planet. I actually remember the day it was announced as an extinct disease. Why not HPV?

Oh, the vaccine isn’t perfect, but it protects against (I think - it used to be 4 but has been uprated since I last looked) 10 of the strains of HPV that are definitely known to cause cancer.

My kids were, and grandkids are, taught abstinence. On some it worked - on my elder daughter, having given us 6 grandchildren and counting already, I don’t think that lesson took particularly well!
They were/are also taught - by me - what safe sex is and where the condoms, spermicide and barriers are kept since we don’t have the option of home schooling here and I well remember what it is like to be a randy teen and a father before 20!
I will do everything in my power to keep them safe from harm without raising them to be coddled wimps. Like you, I strongly dislike being told how to raise my kids, but if something comes up that helps them they get it, if I have to eat lettuce sandwiches for a month to pay for it.

Without the vaccine, the chances of my grandaughters developing cervical cancer is low but measurable. With the vaccine it is much, much lower. Worth it, in my book.

I think on this topic we’ll have to agree to disagree, since you won’t persuade me and I won’t persuade you. But thank you for the spirited discussion!


2,167 posted on 09/13/2011 8:36:42 AM PDT by EnglishCon
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To: Personal Responsibility

Time will tell


2,168 posted on 09/13/2011 8:52:32 AM PDT by mojitojoe (WH says potus didn’t feel the earthquake. No worries. Another is scheduled for November 2012)
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To: navymom1; All

“Go ahead and flame me with high-minded principals, but I say this board needs to curtail the infighting, focus instead on the enemy, and then cast our votes for who we think can best keep Obama from winning another term. He’s the enemy.”

While I agree with you in principle....you have to realize that “some” (like Romney & Paul) that are running for the GOP nomination are the enemy as well; wolves in sheep clothing. A Romney or Paul presidency would be as damaging to true conservatism (what will actually fix this country) as 4 more years of Obama.

Now that being said, it does bother me that Perry and Palin supporters are in a blood feud that could damage the general election. So, I see your point.


2,169 posted on 09/13/2011 8:58:02 AM PDT by Sola Veritas (Trying to speak truth - not always with the best grammar or spelling)
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To: mojitojoe

Yes it will but the only thing you can factually say right now is she is not currently a declared canddiate for President.


2,170 posted on 09/13/2011 8:58:35 AM PDT by Personal Responsibility (Government rushes to help the irresponsible and does little for the responsible)
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To: navymom1
thanks no reason to be anything else.

Your point about the circular firing squad is right on. We should always shoot the dems with all we have and tread lightly on our own.

Primaries are tough. the trick is to dissect our own candidates without mortally wounding them. It's not always pretty.

We all share your concerns as well.

2,171 posted on 09/13/2011 9:04:12 AM PDT by rodguy911 (FreeRepublic:Land of the Free because of the Brave--Sarah Palin 2012)
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To: rodguy911
the trick is to dissect our own candidates without mortally wounding them.

Bachman went in for the kill last night and she will regret it. This morning's feedback is not at all positive for her. She got realy ugly during the debate (must be the lawyer in her).

2,172 posted on 09/13/2011 9:09:11 AM PDT by jersey117
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To: EnglishCon

I’m glad we all avoid distempers, dyspepsia and anginas, whether chav, mod, rocker or oxbridgite.

To me, I would have been happier to know as a a parent that the the vaccine stops some common forms of warts. I don’t like warts. I hates warts. I have a wart-remover first-aid pack which freezes them off ready in the bathroom cabinet.

I bought that when I happened one morning to see a wart growing on my fingertip. Awful, awful, horrid. Ran to the druggist right away and spent $25 for it. It was my first wart in at least four decades.

Used to get them all the time as a kid. I grew up in swampy area and had many water-loving reptiles as in interesting things to capture, examine and keep awhile. Then I didn’t mind warts, or getting all mucky, climbing some moss-slime covered tree.

But it is wrong for the reasons the stalwart and four-square Rick Santorum pointed out, to compel a vaccine in what is not a emergency or extremely urgent public health situation, even if that compulsion allows a possible (albeit a not-so-easy procedural hurdle) opt-out. And it is MOST wrong, from the stand point of liberty and of rule of law in a representative democratic republic, for any magistrate, executive, minister or president to give such a ORDER, as if he is a regent.

Such an demand upon the public is properly had via the legislature in ordinary circumstances, or via a full regulation creation process that includes public hearings, testimony and counter-testimony, and then ruling by some expert committee or citizen jury.

For such a decision to be reached by one man and so ordered is NOT democracy. It is dictatorship. It is proper for the President of the US to make such an order to the general public only in the most chaotic and extreme of emergencies. In his role as Commander in Chief the President can order the military to get vaccinated, but it stops within that group.


2,173 posted on 09/13/2011 9:31:08 AM PDT by bvw
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To: Sola Veritas

I understand the concerns about Romney. He is not my candidate; Sara Palin is until the nominee is chosen. However, if Romney survives and somehow becomes the nominee, then he has my full and complete support. The reason I state this is based on the Supreme Court. No matter what Romney might do elsewhere regarding domestic/foreign policy, I do not believe he will destroy our Republic by appointing another marxist/socialist to the court.

So my argument regarding these early debates comes down to the Supreme Court. My urging of less attacks on each other and more focused attacks on the economy, foreign policy, and the socialist inept leader we are saddled with in Obama, should be the aim due to what we will lose with another 4 years of marxist governing. I believe with all my heart that the Supreme Court is the most precious, most critical possession our Republic has for survival. Look at the ages and health of its justices. Should make us all shudder. I fear that another 4 years of Obama will see the court lost and along with it our Republic as we know it.


2,174 posted on 09/13/2011 9:31:50 AM PDT by navymom1
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To: jwalsh07

The point is to do a risk/reward assessment. Putting kids in a lifevest to swim has a low risk/cost/reward assessment. Reward: They probably won’t drown. Risks: They might get complacent. Costs: it’s not fun to swim with a vest, you can’t swim underwater, kids will make fun of you, you have to buy a vest, you have to remember to bring it all the time.

So no, given the small risk of drowning, I wouldn’t do a vest. I WOULD however watch my kids while they are swimming, because that will ALSO prevent almost all drownings, and I’m there anyway, and even with a vest I would be there. Cost is really nothing, risk is I might fall asleep, reward is I keep them from drowning. I also go to pools with lifeguards, for the same reason.

A vaccine is a one-time thing that then protects you for your life, or maybe a two or three-time thing with boosters. Each time there is a very small risk. But if we vaccinated EVERY girl, the number that would be saved from death alone each year would far outweigh the number who would die from the vaccination.

HOWEVER, the risk of HPV isn’t the same for every girl. Those who are certain to remain sexually inactive aren’t at risk, so nuns and the celebate can skip. If you are pretty sure you trust your spouse, your risk is probably low as well. Of course, my risks of getting polio were pretty low.

What you seem to be arguing is that there is some inordinate COST associated with giving girls a Gardisil vaccination that outweighs the benefits of saving a few lives. I think you are wrong, but I’m not a medical doctor so I’m depending on medical advice from “experts” that I can’t easily verify.

You are also ignoring the other problems associated with HPV that would be prevented with the vaccine, including the people who get cervical cancer but don’t die from it — even if I knew I wasn’t going to die, if I had a choice between going through cancer treatment, or getting a vaccine, I would choose the vaccine.

South Park did an excellent show which made fun of how stupid people are when it comes to risk assessment and understanding. The parents ended up sending their kids out of town into the wilderness, because they learned that kids were most likely to be abused at home by someone in their family.

Your suggestion to lock kids in the basement to avoid the minor risk of skin cancer reminded me of that show. Especially since you can also protect your kids by putting sunblock on them when they go out, if you are really paranoid.

If there was a vaccine for skin cancer, we’d take it.

Lest I forget, what I said about life vests was that I make my kids where life vests when we go on a boat. The Boy Scouts require it — my son just did a 10-day wildnerness Alaska raft adventure, and everybody including the guides wore life vests. It was a mandate without an opt-out.


2,175 posted on 09/13/2011 9:40:49 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: jerseyrocks

>> “As a result of that pharmaceutical witchcraft tens of thousands of lives have been saved through treatments” <<

.
That is the second ugliest lie ever told (the first being that lie told to Eve by satan).

Pharmaceutical drugs have cost millions of lives. They may well be the leading cause of death in the western world.

Bodies heal naturally, when fed naturally. Bodies die when fed poisons.

Cancer treatment leads inexorably to death, well before any cancer could do the job.

And yes, you do need lots of education. Try your keyboard skills:

http://www.cancertutor.com (the gathered wisdom and research of hundreds of courageous healers)

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/Articledirectory.aspx (natural health articles directory - Dr. Mercola)

http://www.doctoryourself.com/

http://orthomolecular.org/index.shtml

http://thehealthadvantage.com/index.html

http://www.cancer-success.com/ (Bob Davis)


2,176 posted on 09/13/2011 9:44:58 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Sarah Palin - 2012 !)
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To: jersey117

I really love and respect Michelle but I sense she may be over her head.Funny you should mention this. It just came up on Rush’s show right now where he said its impossible not to try and vet candidates.


2,177 posted on 09/13/2011 9:49:53 AM PDT by rodguy911 (FreeRepublic:Land of the Free because of the Brave--Sarah Palin 2012)
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To: jwalsh07
Here is what you said:

Jwalsh07: There was no "opt out", there was a form to submit requesting status as a conscientious objector with the government being the judge of that.

HERE, in contrast, is what the executive order says:

Parents’ Rights.The Department of State Health Services will, in order to protect the right of parents to be the final authority on their children’s health care, modify the current process in order to allow parents to submit a request for a conscientious objection affidavit form via the Internet while maintaining privacy safeguards under current law.

There is nothing in that EO saying that the government would be the "judge of that." It says that the Parents are the FINAL AUTHORITY, not the government. That is what was false in what you said.

Perry had requested as part of his program that they implement an online opt-out form, as you can see above. I don't think they ever implemented it, as you know the Texas legislature passed a law in objection to the EO, and Perry rescinded the EO, so it could be they never adopted an online form.

Here is the rules for opt-out in Texas. You will note that there is NO MENTION of a state review being necessary. You only need to SUBMIT THE REQUEST, and you are opted out. So again, your claim that the government gets to judge your submission is false:

42.043. RULES FOR IMMUNIZATIONS.
(d) No immunization may be required for admission to a facility regulated under this chapter if a person applying for a child's admission submits one of the following affidavits:
(1) an affidavit signed by a licensed physician stating that the immunization poses a significant risk to the health and well-being of the child or a member of the child's family or household; or
(2) an affidavit signed by the child's parent or guardian stating that the applicant declines immunization for reasons of conscience, including a religious belief.
(d-1) An affidavit submitted under Section (d)(2) must be on a form described by Section 161.0041, Health and Safety Code, and must be submitted not later than the 90th day after the date the affidavit is notarized.

Here is the online form you can use to request the official opt-out form. You fill this out, they send a form to your house, you fill it out, sign it in front of a notary, mail it in, and you are DONE. Opted out. Obviously, and online opt-out form would have been easier, but this isn't a hard process:

Affidavit Request for Exemption from Immunizations for Reasons of Conscience.

Here is the Texas state web page for immunization exemptions. As you will see if you read it, the process does NOT include any government review of the submissions.

School & Child-Care Facility Requirements

I hope that i have provided you with sufficient information to prove to you that your claim that the state would "judge" the submission was false. There is no evidence in the EO, the state law, or the official exemption web site to support your claim, and in fact they all state the opposite of what you claimed.

2,178 posted on 09/13/2011 10:02:28 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT

>> “That certainly isn’t a generally accepted opinion.” <<

It is the generally accepted opinion of the vast majority of those that have prodigeously studied the subject.

>> “You can get skin cancer by being in the sun too long, no matter what you eat” <<

Try to find any research that supports that conclusion objectively.

The opposite is true; those that work in the sun rarely get melanomas, while those that work indoors have a high incidence of it. The key is real vitamin D. Those that work indoors can significantly reduce their risk by taking serum vitamin D3.

>> “Smoking will give you throat and lung cancer...” <<

Drinking hard liquor will give you throat cancer much more quickly, and taking antacids frequently, which alkalizes beneficial stomach acid, can increase your risk of lung cancer far more than smoking will. (the undigested rotting food in your intestines increases anaerobic bacteria, which are carried to your lungs by your blood, for disposal - yep, bad breath)

Yes, honest, objective science is definitely in agreement that natural diet is the only way to prevent or reduce the risk of cancers.

See the links in http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2777151/posts?page=2176#2176


2,179 posted on 09/13/2011 10:06:53 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Sarah Palin - 2012 !)
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To: rbmillerjr

>> “When did she do that.... she endorsed Gov Perry.” <<

.
Only in the 2010 state election and that was reluctantly.


2,180 posted on 09/13/2011 10:09:01 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Sarah Palin - 2012 !)
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To: rintense
It was a pretty telling revelation that Gov. Sarah Palin was also approached by Merck about gardasil and she said hell no.

I don't know what makes you think that? While she was Governor, Gardisil was added to Alaska's immunization program, and they even accepted federal dollars to help pay for Gardisil vaccines for children.

What she apparently DIDN'T do was make it a mandatory vaccine for school attendance. I agree with that. But Merck stopped asking states to do Gardisil stuff in like February of 2007. So she didn't have to fight them off very long. Merck Ending Lobbying for mandatory Gardasil Vaccine -- February 27, 2007.

Palin took office in December of 2006, so they only had about two months to ask her to put it on the list. I think Palin said she had some e-mails about it, maybe someone could dig them up and post them, that would be enlightening.

But like I said, it is clear Palin wasn't opposed to Gardasil, or even to taxpayer funding for Gardasil (which also enriched Merck). We know that because we have seen links to the actual Alaska Government web pages that tout the programs, from late 2008 early 2009, while Sarah Palin was still governor.

Anyway, government decides all sorts of things it thinks is best for your child, and yes, they all infringe on your rights. You have to use a child safety seat in your car. You can't opt out of that one either. You will get a ticket, and CPS might come after you. Sarah Palin never spoke out against that mandate, nor has ANY conservative I've ever seen speak out against that.

So don't pretend conservatives are universally against any government law that mandates ANY action by parents. We are more or less opposed in general to these things, but we accept a lot of them without question or complaint.

At least with school vaccine requirements, some states have opt-out procedures, and Texas was one of those so PARENTS HAD THAT FINAL SAY in whether their kids got vaccinated or not. That is explicitly stated in Perry's EO.

Unless Michelle Bachman is on record for ending school-required vaccination programs, and lifting the car seat requirements, and the mandatory testing hospitals have to perform on newborns, she has no leg to stand on complaining about Perry adding ONE vaccine to the list on those grounds.

Her problem is the nature of the Gardasil vaccine, not some grand principle that government should never tell us anything about how to raise our children.

2,181 posted on 09/13/2011 10:16:36 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: rintense
BTW, and maybe you will have more luck, I've been searching the Palin E-mail archives, and I haven't found anything yet on Gardasil, Merck, of vaccinations. Somebody posted that she claimed she had e-mails about Merck pushing Gardasil and how she responded, but I've used all three e-mail search engines that I could find, and while they seemed to find most words I looked for, they did not show up "vaccine", "Vaccine", "Gardasil", "gardasil", "Merck", or "merck", or "drug company".

Maybe she will post links to the e-mails she was talking about.

2,182 posted on 09/13/2011 10:24:48 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT
From the Office of Gov. Palin: Gardasil Fact Sheet

Now show me where Palin signed an Executive Order saying it was mandatory.

She didn't.

She put the choice in the hands of Alaskans at no cost to the state.

2,183 posted on 09/13/2011 10:27:19 AM PDT by rintense (Polls are for strippers and cross country skiing. ~ Sarah Palin, 9.3.11)
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To: USARightSide

“We NEVER had our hands over hearts when singing the Anthem - all these years.
And I’ve lived from NY, to MD, to NM, to CA, and we NEVER did this.

This phony stuff started when pictures of Obama doing the ‘crotch’ shot were published.

If Obama’s hand was not over his heart when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, then that is wrong. It is not wrong, however, to then drop the hand when singing, or listening to the Anthem.
I think people wanted to show what an idiot Obama was for not having his hand over his heart, but it’s not necessary - we have other proof of that!

I am not aware the ‘rule’ was changed - was there a memo I missed?!”

Not sure if it was because my Dad was a lifer in the Air Force, the schools that I went to (most were near military bases) or ?? but I don’t remember not doing so. I’ve lived in several states as well and have put my hand over my heart for the National Anthem for as long as I can remember as has my sister; and, we taught my nephew to do the same when he was very small.


2,184 posted on 09/13/2011 10:28:14 AM PDT by Seattle Conservative (God Bless and protect our troops)
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To: TexasFreeper2009

OK, my apologies then.


2,185 posted on 09/13/2011 10:35:06 AM PDT by Bigg Red (Another Maryland girl for Palin in 2012)
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To: navymom1; All

“I believe with all my heart that the Supreme Court is the most precious, most critical possession our Republic has for survival. Look at the ages and health of its justices. Should make us all shudder. I fear that another 4 years of Obama will see the court lost and along with it our Republic as we know it.”

There are too many bad things a defective Republican (like Romney) can do to the country. Your concern about the SCOTUS is noted, but you should consider that the solution there isn’t who is POTUS but who is in control of the Senate. If we can rid the Senate of RINO’s and then get a majority....not even Obama can put through a justice that doesn’t meet muster.

For my part....any of the current persons running except (Romney, Paul, and Huntsman) can get my support in a general election. However, I will NEVER vote for those three....it will destroy conservatism worse than any poor SCOTUS. True and total conservatism (morale, social, fiscal) is the solution to this countries problems. Settling for a wishy washy GOP candidate to simply get rid of Obama is just not wise. Sounds pragmatic, but it is a road to disaster.


2,186 posted on 09/13/2011 10:41:46 AM PDT by Sola Veritas (Trying to speak truth - not always with the best grammar or spelling)
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To: CharlesWayneCT

Do you know what the word request means?


2,187 posted on 09/13/2011 10:43:27 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: CurlyBill

I looked through the various state information I could find on the web, and found no indication that the total number of slots open at the public texas schools for in-state tuition were limited. Doesn’t mean they weren’t, just that I can’t find any indication that Texas schools are full-up and have no extra in-state slots.

Illegals have always been allowed to attend college, so if it was simply “in-state slots”, they could take them anyway. If they were paying out-of-state tuition, they might be counted as “out-of-state” slots so they wouldn’t then take up in-state slots.

The cost is an interesting question as well. If they actually bump other students, so that there is no additional total in-state population in school, then they have no monetary cost, because any student in that slot would have cost the same. If the schools are underpopulated and not turning down any in-state person, then they don’t have a large real cost, since it doesn’t cost anything to put another person in an empty seat (there is an “opportunity” cost if you ASSUME that in the absense of the in-state program, they would have paid out-of-state tuition. On the other hand, if you assume they wouldn’t have gone at all, you might actually LOSE money if you canceled the program, because there would be empty seats where you used to have partially-paying students).

In Virginia, we certainly have a limit; and they somewhat control that by region, so it can be hard to get into some of the schools if you live in a “smarter” part of the state since competition is more fierce. Of course, we don’t allow in-state tuition for illegals.

But not every state has an in-state public system that is so good that people have to fight to get into it. I happen to think that Virginia has one of the best in-state school systems in the country, with several top-20 schools.

I’ve looked at several articles that were complaining about the in-state Texas tuition program for illegals. One talked about lawsuits. In none of those articles did they mention having a plaintiff who was a resident of the state DENIED in-state tuition because all the slots were full. If there was such a person, you would expect the lawyers fighting this would have used them — especially since they tried using out-of-state students and were dismissed because the out-of-state students couldn’t prove any actual harm (since they wouldn’t get in-state tuition anyway).

So, by inference from everything I’ve read, I believe that at this time, the illegals getting in-state tuition are NOT bumping citizens of Texas from in-state tuition. If you find a link showing that they are being bumped, I will be enlightened.


2,188 posted on 09/13/2011 10:45:38 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT
42.043. RULES FOR IMMUNIZATIONS.

(d) No immunization may be required for admission to a facility regulated under this chapter if a person applying for a child's admission submits one of the following affidavits:

(1) an affidavit signed by a licensed physician stating that the immunization poses a significant risk to the health and well-being of the child or a member of the child's family or household; or

(2) an affidavit signed by the child's parent or guardian stating that the applicant declines immunization for reasons of conscience, including a religious belief.

That's not easy. Not easy at all. And I will tell YOU why it is not easy. Please pay full attention as I get to it. When you said "this isn't a hard process" YOU were saying something EASY. It's easy for you to say, but you aren't putting yourself it the shoes of others to so say. That is clear.

It is clear because a conscientious parent, one with moral scruples and a seriousness about what religion and true conscience means will have trouble writing an affidavit attesting to having "reasons of conscience" for objecting to to the vaccine. Why? Because it is likely they have no religious objections to the concept of vaccines, or even of the public health requirements that do indeed give rational public purpose to some vaccines -- such as polio up until very recently, as polio was a true contagious hazard to all. Polio at least until recent years when it is a disease that is so rare that a vaccine for it approaches no longer being for any purpose.

For such truly conscientious folks it is very hard to solemnly swear to a "conscientious objection" of a religious sort. Their objections may be strictly ad-hoc to this particular vaccine, and they object to the State's given rationale for the need to vaccinate. That's a policy objection, not one of conscience.

Yet to such folks HONESTY is paramount. Filing an objection as a "conscientious objection" is simply untrue, so honest are they, so committed to honesty.

IN YOUR GLIBNESS YOU DEMAND that they be dishonest. That's mean. That's ignorant of you. Callous. Glib. Disrespectful of others.

IT WAS LOUSY, UTTERLY LOUSY PUBLIC HEALTH POLICY TO MANDATE THIS VACCINE, and to burden some of the most morally conscientious with a morally compromising opt-out provision.

As Chief Executive of the Republic of Texas, Perry made a number of significant more mistakes in this matter. Mistakes that speak to his nature as a leader and executive, and how he regards the rights and authority of parents, and from that how he regards the public and their independence as adults making adult decisions.

Nor has he apologized for or regretted some of those key mistakes.

2,189 posted on 09/13/2011 10:48:10 AM PDT by bvw
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To: CharlesWayneCT
A vaccine is a one-time thing that then protects you for your life, or maybe a two or three-time thing with boosters.

Charles, there is no long term study on the efficacy or safety of Gardasil because there is no population group who were vaccinated long enough ago.

And Charles there was no mandate sending your rafting or joining the boy scouts.

BTW, have you vaccinated your son with Gardasil? If not why not?

2,190 posted on 09/13/2011 10:53:11 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: bvw

You quoted one part of an “or” clause. The first part quoted isn’t that “easy”, unless of course you didn’t mind vaccines, but when you went to get the vaccine, the doctor noted that you were allergic and therefore shouldn’t take it, and then it’s easy.

The SECOND clause is relatively easy. You get the form, you fill it out, you sign it in front of a notary, you mail it in, and you are exempt.

And IF the EO had gone into force, it called for an EASIER process, which would put the exemption itself online.

If you only pay attention to half of something, you don’t get the full picture.


2,191 posted on 09/13/2011 11:01:38 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: jwalsh07

Neither of my kids have received a Gardasil vaccination. I opposed mandatory Gardasil vaccinations in my state.

You were equating a vaccine in general with specific actions taken every time you did something. They are not comparable in any way. Gee, I even specifically included that some vaccines have to be repeated, and maybe need boosters later on.

You seemed to be hung up on “mandatory” things. If you are only hung up on “mandatory” Gardisil vaccines, you should make that explicit. You gave what you thought was an audacious analogy of mandating life vests, so I pointed out that the Boy Scouts of America mandate life vests, and they don’t appear to be evil.

And you don’t HAVE to send your kids to public school either, you can opt-out in several ways, including home schooling. And in Texas, you don’t HAVE to get vaccines, you just file for an exemption.


2,192 posted on 09/13/2011 11:07:12 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: jwalsh07

Yes, it means to ask for something.

Like, you can go to the bank and request a withdrawal. Do you believe that means the bank can tell you no? You can request a receipt for your purchase? Do you think that means the store thinks about it and decides if they want to honor your request?

You have to REQUEST an opt-out. If you request it, you get it. But you have to request it — you don’t get an opt-out if you don’t request an opt-out.

Wow. I didn’t realize you had hung your entire argument on a misunderstanding of the concept of “requesting” something.

Would you have been unconfused if they had called it a “demand” instead of a request? because demands can still be rejected as well.

You would have avoided making such a fundamental mistake if you had just taken the time to find out what the request process was, then you would have known that approval was automatic so long as the request form was properly filled out and notarized.

Anyway, now that we’ve cleared up that confusion, you won’t have to make the same mistake again. Glad to be of service.


2,193 posted on 09/13/2011 11:15:50 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT
Charles you are sanguine with the government being the default caregiver to your children while you have to request the government give you an exemption to be the caregiver. There are millions of people like you in America, mostly they are liberals but there are some who delude themselves into thinking they are conservatives.

Your son been innoculated with Gardasil yet?

2,194 posted on 09/13/2011 11:25:34 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: CharlesWayneCT
Neither of my kids have received a Gardasil vaccination.

Why not Charles? It seems a bit odd that you spend time here defending the efficacy of Gardasil while keeping it out of your children. What is it Charles? Gardasil is good for thee but not fo me kind of thing?

2,195 posted on 09/13/2011 11:29:06 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07

I didn’t defend the efficacy of Gardasil. That’s for medical professionals to do. I opposed mandatory vaccination for Gardasil. My daughter will make her own decision — she’s 18 now. I’ve told my kids about STDs, and they have a choice as to how to use that information.

I have no idea if Gardasil is good for others. I urge everybody though to NOT take thier medical advice from a politician with a LAW DEGREE, or anonymous internet posters, but to talk to their own physician. Gardasil shows every sign of being very helpful to the prevention of certain disease, and people shouldn’t reject it because they don’t like Rick Perry.


2,196 posted on 09/13/2011 11:32:44 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: rintense

Straw man argument. Nobody said she mandated it. I said a program started under her watch that provides taxpayer funded Gardasil shots to innocent young girls.

So apparently she doesn’t agree with Michelle Bachmann that offering Gardasil to our kids is like a sexual assault, or that it sentences them to a lifetime of mental retardation.

Palin seems to believe it is right for the Federal Government, and her State Government, to use taxpayer dollars to provide vaccines against STDs. I agree with her, but some here have been fighting that aspect of the issue.

And since the taxpayer dollars go to Merck, it’s clear that Merck benefits from the program put in place in Alaska. She didn’t get a donation from them that I can find. But she certainly didn’t throw them out of her office and refuse to allow any tax dollars to go to their company for the vaccine.

The fact sheet shows that Alaska had no qualms about providing the shots to all their children. I agree with the argument against a mandatory Gardasil vaccine, but I’m fighting with those who argue that there is something immoral about offering Gardasil to our “innocent children”, and especially fighting the scientific ignorance of Michelle Bachmann insinuating that Gardasil just gives kids mental retardation.

Hopefully, nobody will take their medical advice from a politician from the legal profession.


2,197 posted on 09/13/2011 11:39:32 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT

I would vote for Perry over Obama though I admittedly don’t like the guys instincts much. My objection is to executive orders by state and federal executives making themselves the default caregivers of Americas children.


2,198 posted on 09/13/2011 11:40:49 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07

I object to his EO in this case, although given that the vaccine law gave the authority to the executive to determine which vaccines should be covered, and given that the legislature was out of session, I can “understand” why he did the EO.

the thing that bothers me most at this time with Perry is a sense I have that he is stubborn. Where Bush would never defend anything he did, Perry seems intent on defending everything. His fight when the EO objections were raised showed a bit of that; I would have hoped he would have figured out more quickly that he had screwed up.

But we also like that in our candidates. People like Sarah Palin because she says what she means and she doesn’t back down. Of course, she never makes a mistake, so there’s no need for her to back down. :-)


2,199 posted on 09/13/2011 12:00:26 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT

Amigo (”amigo” since I judge you not on how you spell your name), your reading ability is in serious need of improvement.

You clearly only skimmed my post, and missed the 2/3rds pf content of that post.

Your glibness we see applies not just to the words you type, but to the words you read. You speak glibly, and read skimmingly.


2,200 posted on 09/13/2011 12:13:19 PM PDT by bvw
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