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The Coming Collapse: “We Can Buy Time, But We Can’t Change the Outcome”(ARI going mainstream?)
Yahoo! ^ | 09/16/11 | Aaron Task

Posted on 09/19/2011 5:08:38 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster

The Coming Collapse: “We Can Buy Time, But We Can’t Change the Outcome”

By Aaron Task | Daily Ticker – Fri, Sep 16, 2011 1:23 PM EDT

The Ayn Rand Institute held its annual "Atlas Shrugged Revolution" dinner Thursday night in New York City.

In attendance were a number of financial luminaries and hedge fund managers, including Peter Schiff of EuroPacific Capital, John Tamny of RealClearMarkets, Dmitry Balyasny of Balyasny Asset Management and Scott Schweighauser of Aurora Investment Management.

The setting was the tony St. Regis Hotel on Fifth Avenue but there was nothing pleasant about the primary message coming from both the speakers and those in attendance: Western civilization is heading for hell and a hand basket, just like Rand predicted in her seminal novel.

In the accompanying video, ARI president Yaron Brook tells Henry why Rand's devotees believe the global economy is "heading for collapse."

In a nutshell, Brook believes politicians and policymakers have "no solutions" for the problems facing the globe.

"The fundamental problem," Brook says, is with the philosophical belief our society has that governments can solve problems and more rules and regulations are the answer to our economic ailments.

Barring "real structural change" to our economic underpinnings toward self-reliance and true laissez-faire capitalism, "we can buy time, but we can't change the outcome," Brook says.

(Excerpt) Read more at finance.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: atlasburped; atlasshrugged; aynrand; aynrandinstitute; collapse; debt; economy; finance; thecomingdarkness

1 posted on 09/19/2011 5:08:45 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster; PAR35; AndyJackson; Thane_Banquo; nicksaunt; MadLibDisease; happygrl; ...

P!


2 posted on 09/19/2011 5:09:32 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster (The way to crush the bourgeois is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation)
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To: TigerLikesRooster
Funny that this is posted the same day that Obama is proposing more taxes and more spending.

They may not be able to avoid the inevitable, but they certainly won't miss an opportunity to make it worse.

3 posted on 09/19/2011 5:21:34 AM PDT by IncPen (Educating Barack Obama has been the most expensive project in human history)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

There are “solutions”, it is the political will that is lacking.
Socialism fails wherever it is tried.

It must be rejected and replaced with market based economies.

Obama must be defeated!


4 posted on 09/19/2011 5:23:39 AM PDT by G Larry (I dream of a day when a man is judged by the content of his character)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

5 posted on 09/19/2011 5:26:58 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: G Larry

All the supporters of socialism/communism need to be “outed” and ridiculed.

As things stand, the left has successful made it more likely that anyone doing the “outing” will be ridiculed for stating such an outlandish thing, though it’s true.


6 posted on 09/19/2011 5:29:38 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working for)
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To: stylecouncilor

Institute ping....


7 posted on 09/19/2011 5:36:23 AM PDT by onedoug (If)
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To: TigerLikesRooster
My humble opinion is economies run in cycles from bad to good then bad to good. Additionally, all nations have self-interest or all nations governing bodies have self-interest regarding maintaining power and control over their populations. Couple with trade policies, which are unfair to one nation or another, minus global monetary ebb and flow regarding distribution, couple with necessary resources for required growth, minus advisers who do not fully understand a global economy, as all nations have always been subject to, couple with greed of governments, minus those who are betrayed, by treaties, and those who believe betrayal subjects them to a lower standard of living, couple with over regulation, minus actual global policy, couple with loss of control by some governments to formulate control over their populations, and the result is what has always been and will always be chaos regarding economics globally. To solve the problems associated with global policy always requires more pie given than those who hold that piece of the pie are willing to surrender and always eventually leads to the unthinkable. I believe it is a vicious circle which has no beginning or end, but is rather a continuance of bad to good, good to bad. Regrettably, bad eventually rules the day, as history teaches. Also believe there is no solution unless governments are willing to declare jubilee, then there will be those who played by the rules who receive the shaft while those who did not play by the rules get the gold in the mine. This always leads one back to square one. (imho)
8 posted on 09/19/2011 5:37:51 AM PDT by no-to-illegals (Please God, Protect and Bless Our Men and Women in Uniform with Victory. Amen.)
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To: TigerLikesRooster
Under the concept of “structural change” why don't we prohibit lawyers from being elected to Congress?

Perhaps with a government dominated by businessmen (like it was prior to the 20th Century) we can not only reduce the cost of government but also reduce its size.

Businessmen know what it takes to make money both for themselves but for the rest of us too. And, they also know how to reduce personnel overhead to help them make money.

What would be like to live with an administration that reduces regulations and bureaucratic empires instead of living under an administration that increases regulations and bureaucratic empires?

9 posted on 09/19/2011 5:39:54 AM PDT by Nip (TANSTAAFL and BOHICA)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Pessimists. Ever heard of revival? The Tea Party? Reaganism?


10 posted on 09/19/2011 5:40:36 AM PDT by Recovering_Democrat
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To: TigerLikesRooster

After gutting the capital markets with bad loans and trillions in coming tax burdens for unsustainable entitlement programs, the Rats have effectively eaten our seed corn.

Rats, if you are on Free Republic, PLEASE read this:

Lending activity (debt, borrowing) is for: Investment (efficiency enhancing R&D and new capital goods). NOT CONSUMPTION (CONSUMER GOODS).


11 posted on 09/19/2011 5:42:11 AM PDT by 4Liberty (88% of Americans are NON-UNION. We value honest, peaceful Free trade-NOT protectionist CARTELS)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

So, where is Galt’s Gulch so those of us who realize this can escape?


12 posted on 09/19/2011 5:44:59 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright
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To: TigerLikesRooster; Publius; Kartographer

Of interest.

May God guide our course.
Tatt


13 posted on 09/19/2011 5:45:27 AM PDT by thesearethetimes... ("Courage, is fear that has said its prayers." DorothyBernard)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Ayn Rand: most successful enabler of Marxism since Marx.


14 posted on 09/19/2011 5:48:36 AM PDT by the invisib1e hand (...then they came for the guitars, and we kicked their sorry faggot asses into the dust)
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To: Recovering_Democrat

No amount of optimism or revival eliminates a 15.5 Trillion dollar debt. The sooner this thing collapses, the sooner the pieces can begin to rebuild themselves.


15 posted on 09/19/2011 5:49:05 AM PDT by Rich21IE
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To: C. Edmund Wright
So, where is Galt’s Gulch so those of us who realize this can escape?

Texas.

I know that Galt's Gulch is in Colorado, but Texas comes a close second, particularly if you don't include Austin.

16 posted on 09/19/2011 5:49:48 AM PDT by Night Hides Not (My dream ticket for 2012 is John Galt & Dagny Taggart!)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

The solution (unfortunately) is a one-world government and a reset button.


17 posted on 09/19/2011 5:54:23 AM PDT by crosshairs (If Sharia Law becomes the law of the land, heads are gonna roll.)
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To: crosshairs
The solution (unfortunately) is going to be a one-world government and a reset button.

There. Slight adjustment.
18 posted on 09/19/2011 5:56:33 AM PDT by crosshairs (If Sharia Law becomes the law of the land, heads are gonna roll.)
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To: Rich21IE

I don’t deny massive changes are needed in the structure of the welfare state. But collapse is not the only option to effect that change.


19 posted on 09/19/2011 5:57:47 AM PDT by Recovering_Democrat
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To: no-to-illegals

no-to-illegals: “Also believe there is no solution unless governments are willing to declare jubilee...”

That has to be the worst idea I have ever heard.

jubilee: “In the Hebrew Scriptures, a year of rest to be observed by the Israelites every 50th year, during which slaves were to be set free, alienated property restored to the former owners, and the lands left untilled.”


20 posted on 09/19/2011 5:59:24 AM PDT by CitizenUSA (What's special about bad? Bad is easy. Anyone can do bad. I prefer good!)
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To: crosshairs
Reset button maybe ... One world government would cause other governments to believe they were as capable of control as a world government and piss off all the other governments in the world for their golden goose would have been given to some other group of people, and probably chaos would come quicker. If chaos is the outcome, no matter what is done, then future history will be the history of the past, and learning from history is never an easy task. In my humble opinion, history teaches, and none of us ever learn the answers, for it is the answers which are elusive. On this planet trial and error, mostly error, rule the day, simply because nobody is intelligent enough to avoid error. (imho)
21 posted on 09/19/2011 6:05:02 AM PDT by no-to-illegals (Please God, Protect and Bless Our Men and Women in Uniform with Victory. Amen.)
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To: Recovering_Democrat

Recovering_Democrat: “But collapse is not the only option to effect that change.”

I believe you’re right. People still have a choice. We can either elect leaders who are willing to roll this back, or we can continue on the same course until it comes apart. My concern is that the longer we delay, the more difficult it’s going to be. The Democrats aren’t going to be any help whatsoever. All they want is more of the same: more taxes, more regulation, and more entitlements. I think about 20% of the population are hard core statists.


22 posted on 09/19/2011 6:05:29 AM PDT by CitizenUSA (What's special about bad? Bad is easy. Anyone can do bad. I prefer good!)
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To: no-to-illegals

no-to-illegals: “On this planet trial and error, mostly error, rule the day, simply because nobody is intelligent enough to avoid error.”

So what about the millions of Americans, including FReepers, who understand what’s going on and want to change it? Are we all unintelligent, too? No. Your point is nonsense. A lot of people know exactly how to solve this mess. It’s called returning to the small government, free market, and individual responsibility that created our great wealth in the first place.

A lack of morality is our problem, not intelligence. There are still many millions of moral Americans left who do not think it’s right to steal from their neighbors.


23 posted on 09/19/2011 6:14:23 AM PDT by CitizenUSA (What's special about bad? Bad is easy. Anyone can do bad. I prefer good!)
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To: CitizenUSA
We can either elect leaders who are willing to roll this back, or we can continue on the same course until it comes apart.

The problem isn't the leaders...the problem is the 50% of our population that don't WANT to roll this back. Go read the comments to that article at the source.

As long as their are two camps in this country who have DIAMETRICALLY opposite world-views, politicians will not solve the problem. Instead we will merely slip closer to the abyss, with both sides blaming the other and growing further alienated from each other.

24 posted on 09/19/2011 6:16:13 AM PDT by Axeslinger (Where has my country gone?)
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To: crosshairs
The solution (unfortunately) is going to be a one-world government and a reset button.

This needs to be repeated.

There's not going to be a way of escape out of this mess, we're headed to a one world government and there's nothing we can do about it. One of the things people don't understand about Biblical prophecy about the End of Days is that the Anti-Christ doesn't come on the scene initially due to some great military victory, but because he offers a way to solve an economic crisis that seems to be unsolvable. There's a very good chance that this present crisis is the beginning of that final crisis, but only time will prove if I'm right or not.

This could very easily prove to be something other than that crisis, but considering the situation in the Middle East right now and how closely things are lining up with the description of the coming war according to Psalms 83, I'm pretty sure that this is the beginning of the final collapse.

25 posted on 09/19/2011 6:16:41 AM PDT by Avalon Hussar
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To: no-to-illegals

Well my humble opinion is that there are NO business cycles save one, an annual cycle driven by the seasons.

The rest is driven by the ebb and flow of policies of governance, emerging technology, war and various other issues driven by human choice.

The fact that we have gone from wise to stupid in the way of monetary policy may be a recurring phenomenon but it isn’t cyclical. Human choices aren’t inevitably governed by a cycle.

Rather than holding a fatalism that is engendered by the belief in cycles in human behavior, I prefer the optimism that people can get a clue and keep it for thousands of years perhaps.

Teach your children well.


26 posted on 09/19/2011 6:30:20 AM PDT by UnChained (The "stimulus" CAUSED the economy to tank.)
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To: Axeslinger

Axeslinger: “The problem isn’t the leaders...”

It’s the leaders and the people who support them.

Axeslinger: “...the problem is the 50% of our population that don’t WANT to roll this back.”

True, except we don’t know what percent are committed to destroying this country via socialism. We’re still generally a conservative majority country. The rest are getting a good lesson in Obama economics. It seemed like America’s great days were over when Carter was president. Then came Reagan.

It’s not hopeless.


27 posted on 09/19/2011 6:38:50 AM PDT by CitizenUSA (What's special about bad? Bad is easy. Anyone can do bad. I prefer good!)
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To: CitizenUSA
I cannot and will not say you are incorrect. I too believe in smaller government. Yes many people know what is going on and many of them are FReepers. I do not disagree. What is worrisome is governments, all governments, seek to control their populations. (imho) this is what governments believe is their objective. While smaller government is an answer, how many politicians ever speak of smaller government. (imho) not many politicians do, and how many in government ever agree to smaller government? Very few (imho). I mostly agree with your post. I do not claim to have all the answers (nor am I an expert), and will state or type, most politicians do not have the answers. History is wraught with errors, some seen, some unseen. Most are incapable of learning from the past (imho) because error is always present in each policy enacted. If I had every solution to every problem I would be someone who could not be elected for elections of those who solve problems seldom occurs. If we elected problem solvers, there would still be error for there is always consequences to every action. Reset maybe, though there will be no support for such an idea because there will be losers who played by the rules. When seeking solutions, as all who frequent this forum do, there is still room for those perceived solutions to be filled with error. Just as any thought can be full of error, any solution can be full of error. Have come to believe it is a way of life and will not change, even though I desire it to change and there be no error, yet realize humans are always going to make errors, even though many do not desire or want errors. Errors (imho) are a reflection, of free will, granted by God. Free Will to me means there will be error. America did elect a zer0, or it was told to us, we did. zer0 is one big a$$ mistake America. Error always happens (imho) because the masses are fraught with error due to free will. Do I want to give up free will? No. Great wealth always exists on paper. Paper is always worthless, unless someone is willing to recognize that paper has value. So a solution is sought when the paper becomes worthless or near worthless, as day by day the global economies go a little further down the path to holding worthless paper. War is the result of paper gone worthless. So while one argues for one side or the other, the problem(s) continue to exist, therefore I cannot argue a collapse is the only solution, though it is one solution. And will agree a lack of morality is our problem, though will argue the collective intelligence of this planet is lacking in fermenting an error-less society. Stealing is always wrong. But how do you propose to stop stealing? There are far too many who view stealing as a way of life. Many of the thieves are governments. Then there is the normal everyday thief. A beginning is necessary though there will always be those who will use their free will to not abide by the rules and will steal. If you and I could bottle the solutions, we could sell for top dollar, till the thieves showed up. (imho ...)
28 posted on 09/19/2011 6:54:10 AM PDT by no-to-illegals (Please God, Protect and Bless Our Men and Women in Uniform with Victory. Amen.)
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To: CitizenUSA
40-50% don't want to destroy "this country via socialism". They just want daddy government to take care of them, or their children, or their parents or...whatever. But in the end, whether they "want" to destroy via socialism or not, the final result is the same.

I have a small glimmer of hope. 9/11 brought us together for what, 6 months? If the two different views of government's role cannot find a way to reconcile themselves with each other...it's over. It's just a matter of timing.

29 posted on 09/19/2011 7:14:47 AM PDT by Axeslinger (Where has my country gone?)
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To: Axeslinger
Sorry that should say:

But, 9/11 brought us together for what, 6 months?

30 posted on 09/19/2011 7:17:26 AM PDT by Axeslinger (Where has my country gone?)
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To: UnChained
Teach your children well.

Agreement and would add two words ...
Teach and prepare your children well.

31 posted on 09/19/2011 7:19:22 AM PDT by no-to-illegals (Please God, Protect and Bless Our Men and Women in Uniform with Victory. Amen.)
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To: Axeslinger

6 hours... about the amount of time before leftists were saying we deserved it, or asking what we did to make them attack us, or pleading for no response from our government or military.


32 posted on 09/19/2011 7:21:07 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working for)
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To: MrB

“All the supporters of socialism/communism need to be “outed” and ridiculed.”

Oh, it needs to go FAR beyond outing and ridiculing. They are traitors.


33 posted on 09/19/2011 8:12:31 AM PDT by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: ADemocratNoMore; Aggie Mama; alarm rider; alexander_busek; AlligatorEyes; AmericanGirlRising; ...

The Ayn Rand Institute held its annual “Atlas Shrugged Revolution” dinner Thursday night in New York City. This is a short article about what was discussed. It confirms the idea that the book is a template for what is happening.


34 posted on 09/19/2011 8:21:49 AM PDT by Publius
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To: Avalon Hussar

“I’m pretty sure that this is the beginning of the final collapse.”

So now we have 3 views of what’s ahead:

1.Your apocayptic view; the end is near
2.Recovering_Democrat and CitizeUSA’s optimistic view; that given application of free-market policies and backing off by the federal government the bad chaos and fighting can be avoided.
3.no-to-illegals cyclical view that the chaos and war is unavoidable, but not necessarily the end.

Of course there is the fourth view, also optimistic, but founded on a view of human nature that runs counter to the historical and cyclical reality that no-to-illegals appears to hold: that with enough education of the ignorant, redistribution of resources by the elite exercising authority, and negotiation and compromise between competing groups, the war and chaos we all see just ahead can be avoided.

Anybody have a fifth or sixth idea of how the continuing “crisis” will be resolved?


35 posted on 09/19/2011 8:29:02 AM PDT by ngat
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To: ngat
Anybody have a fifth or sixth idea of how the continuing “crisis” will be resolved?

"Rebellion is always an option!!"--Jim Robinson

And, of course, secession.

36 posted on 09/19/2011 9:15:02 AM PDT by cowboyway (Molon labe : Deo Vindice : "Rebellion is always an option!!"--Jim Robinson)
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To: TigerLikesRooster
Rand posited only the collapse in Atlas Shrugged, and that collapse was incomplete at the end of the novel. Civilization's subsequent rise was not a part of her narrative, only a promise that there would be a new economic morality that was built around different core principles that had proven successful in the past before the corruption set in, when people got good and tired of poverty and starvation, that is.

It's fiction, of course, and it's a bit of a mystery to me why people should expect more out of it than that. Nevertheless, it contained some parts that were not Rand the theorist expounding, but Rand the observer recalling what she'd seen in Russia as a young student. Those, to me, seem the most persuasive parts of the novel, the bum's narrative of events at the Twentieth Century Motor Company being particularly brilliant in that regard.

What will fail is the question, and what will work? Rand took her post-fall communities back to subsistence farming and a barter/theft economy, which is about as low a level as is likely to be experienced here in the United States, in my opinion. Within that model, however, economics works perfectly well. She felt, and I agree, that it wasn't too far from the beginnings of the country past the point where everything had to be imported from Britain. She felt, and I agree, that the more laissez-faire economic model present at the time was responsible in large measure for the country's success, and that subsequent attempts to layer government control had fallen to the temptation of thinking that the control was the economy.

But the economies of the time weren't really isolated villages surrounded by farms, they contained local banking, local currencies, trade with neighboring regions, local defense, in short, all those things that we tend to over-idealize a bit these days as a golden age. What we sometimes don't like to recall is the failure rate of all of these but it's there in the records if we care to look.

The significant difference is in regional communication, which is the reason we have a continental economy and the reason Rand focused her novel around the Taggart trains. There was such communication before the trains, of course - the story of the Erie Canal is little less than astounding - but the national economy as we know it would be critically affected if train transportation were to fail between regions and truck transportation were to fail within them. Poorly crafted energy policies could do that; in fact, may already be doing so.

And so the focus will be on the local, which is why location out of the cities and toward small towns that have associated agricultural or fishing activities may be at a premium. I think most preppers agree on that issue. But the cities won't be empty, and as long as it is economically advantageous to run oxcarts full of grain down broken asphalt, someone will do so. But not from Topeka to Los Angeles.

What Rand posited that I do feel is likely under these circumstances is a breakdown of central authority, and I agree with her that it is unlikely to die easily or peacefully. There is very little actual violence in Atlas Shrugged, far less than I think will happen if people actually do start to starve. But we've seen breakdowns of central authority before in history. Once Rome fell and the empire split, the economic status of the independent manors changed very little; those endured through feudalism to the restoration of central authority under the Merovingians. Village life did not need central authority, but it was much more limited than the cosmopolitan empire provided. There were free cities, there was private banking, currencies, and eventually transportation. Some of this stuff took until the Renaissance to fully recover. A thousand years give or take a little.

I'd suspect that our own experience is likely to be much quicker, only because so much of this will not have to be re-invented, but merely restored. But the people who ate during all of this were near the manors and villages. Just some rambling thoughts.

37 posted on 09/19/2011 11:17:57 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: cowboyway

Hadn’t thought of those two.

Here’s two more:

The people become sullen and wander around wearing only expressions of sadness and despair on their faces.

And of course, WE DIE!


38 posted on 09/19/2011 11:40:02 AM PDT by ngat
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To: Nip

Following up on your reply, Nip:

What have businesses been doing relentlessly at least for the past 25-30 years? Investing in technology for improved service and productivity; constantly downsizing (to improve service and improve profitability and productivity); emphasizing customer service (for improved profitability, sales and customer loyalty). The result is: businesses are sitting on lots of cash, have record levels of profitability, and are investing overseas for expansion purposes.

When is the last time any of these principles were pursued in the public sector? State or Federal? How about never?

What about our public institutions? Like our school system? Forget about it!


39 posted on 09/19/2011 11:54:59 AM PDT by ReleaseTheHounds ("The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." M. Thatcher)
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To: the invisib1e hand
Ayn Rand: most successful enabler of Marxism since Marx.

Idiotic.

40 posted on 09/19/2011 1:45:54 PM PDT by Misterioso (The worst law is better than bureaucratic tyranny. (Ludwig von Mises)
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To: MrB

I can remember old Union-Lefties I knew blaming Bush41 for not finishing off Saddam as being the reason for 9-11. Oh my how things changed.

It was a matter of days that they tried to make something stick. Rush was right, they were mad about the 2000 election, and it set the tone for the lack of respect for the office for 8 years.


41 posted on 09/19/2011 4:44:34 PM PDT by CommieCutter (Promote Liberal Extinction: Support gay marriage and abortion!)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Ayn Rand: most successful enabler of Marxism since Marx.


42 posted on 09/19/2011 7:23:24 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (...then they came for the guitars, and we kicked their sorry faggot asses into the dust)
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To: Misterioso
Idiotic.

Would you bet your house on that, or are you content to be an intellectual slave?

43 posted on 09/19/2011 7:31:46 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (...then they came for the guitars, and we kicked their sorry faggot asses into the dust)
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To: cowboyway

Soveriegn debt default and then secession. I may be wrong, but if the U.S. is forced to default on it’s debt obligations, (a giant reset button), it may well provide the impetus needed for many states to opt out of the Union. And no, at that point, I don’t think the stinkin’ Feds will either care to do anything about it nor have the means to do anything about it.


44 posted on 09/20/2011 10:05:48 AM PDT by Rich21IE
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To: Billthedrill

Hey Bill, long time.

Anyway, I think Rand’s idea of regional survival is probably accurate.

However, I also think DC and state governments may very well experience a version of Madame La Guillotine.

At least I hope that if American experiences a sort of French Revolution, it’s relatively localized.

(The powers that be seem to really be pushing for violence. The idiots in charge really don’t understand history and just how fast things can spiral out of control)


45 posted on 09/21/2011 8:34:23 PM PDT by stylin_geek (Never underestimate the power of government to distort markets)
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