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Rick Perry backer Robert Jeffress: Mitt Romney not a Christian
Politico ^ | 10/07/11 | Alexander Burns

Posted on 10/07/2011 5:17:45 PM PDT by freespirited

Texas evangelical leader Robert Jeffress, the Baptist megachurch pastor who introduced Rick Perry at the Values Voter Summit, said Friday afternoon he does not believe Mitt Romney is a Christian.

Jeffress described Romney's Mormon faith as a “cult,” and said evangelicals had only one real option in the 2012 primaries. Continue Reading

“That is a mainstream view, that Mormonism is a cult,” Jeffress told reporters here. “Every true, born again follower of Christ ought to embrace a Christian over a non-Christian.”

Asked by POLITICO if he believed Romney is a Christian, Jeffress answered: “No.”

Jeffress's comments represent the first major attack of the 2012 cycle on Romney over his membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, an issue that some Romney supporters believe cost the former Massachusetts governor in his last presidential run.

The attack on Romney wasn’t just faith-based. Jeffress called the Republican presidential candidate a “conservative out of convenience” who “does not have a consistent track record on the subject of marriage, on the sanctity of life.”

“I just do not believe that we as conservative Christians can expect him to stand strong for the issues that are important to us,” he said.

Jeffress said that he had not spoken with Perry about his views on Romney's faith and was “in no way speaking for him.” In an email, Perry campaign spokesman Robert Black said that the campaign didn’t choose Jeffress to introduce Perry and does not share his view of Mormonism.

The Romney campaign did not respond to a request for comment, nor did the campaign of former Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman, the other Mormon candidate in the Republican presidential race.

Looking ahead to the general election, Jeffress warned that in a race between Romney and Obama, he believes many evangelicals will stay home and leave the GOP nominee without their votes.

“I do not think evangelical voters are going to be motivated to go out and vote for Mitt Romney,” he said. The conservative Christian leader said that he himself would vote for Romney and does not doubt that he is a good man.

“I think he’s a fine family person,” Jeffress explained. “It is only faith in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone that qualifies you as a Christian.”

Jeffress said he does not believe that Mormonism is a disqualifier for the presidency, pointing out that constitutionally, the “government can impose no religious test.”

“Private citizens can impose all kinds of religious tests,” he added.


TOPICS: Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 999; cain; freetrade; globalism; heartless; lds; mittromney; perry; robertjeffress
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To: freespirited
I could care less that he's a Mormon, I have no problems with that at all. What I have a problem with is he switches his positions based on what he's running for, he has no core values, and he is perfectly willing to buy his way into the WH.

I also have a problem with the fact that he trades on his religion and he's going to expect that other Mormons will vote for him strictly because of it. That is nothing against the other Mormons, it's against him for trading on it.

51 posted on 10/07/2011 6:08:30 PM PDT by McGavin999 (Please don't be a Freeploader, help to keep the lights on.)
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To: jimmyray

From the main-stream Christian apostate perspective, you could argue doctrine that way.

But your views on the nature of God are based on old sectarian notions, interpreting Biblical scriptures in a way to fit your own beliefes, not revelation from God to clarify such issues directly.

Your interpretations are in conflict with 20,000 other Christian churchs. THere is quite a variety of opinions among those 20,000.


52 posted on 10/07/2011 6:08:41 PM PDT by Count of Monte Logan
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To: freespirited
Bump. This Perry guy illustrates Christian bigotry at its smelliest.
53 posted on 10/07/2011 6:08:47 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: org.whodat
The Mormon people have been strong GOP backers all my life, nothing like throwing an entire state under the bus.

Gotta agree. Mormons are generally very, very solid Americans and vote very conservatively.

While I wouldn't necessarily refer to Mormonism as a cult, I don't think they are Christians. Just the same, that has nothing to do with why I don't care for Romney. The problem with Mitt is he a flip flopper, with a not particularly conservative record (and that's being generous).

Still, everyone knew this was coming and many Christians are not going to be terribly excited about voting for a Mormon.

54 posted on 10/07/2011 6:10:13 PM PDT by Longbow1969
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To: svcw

Hey, I just posted something off the mormon website. I’m a Baptist and would never, ever vote for Romney, one reason being he’s a mormon.


55 posted on 10/07/2011 6:10:56 PM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: freespirited
Looking ahead to the general election, Jeffress warned that in a race between Romney and Obama, he believes many evangelicals will stay home and leave the GOP nominee without their votes.

I guess this means "evangelicals" would prefer to have a moslem over a Mormon. Brilliant, they are.

56 posted on 10/07/2011 6:11:19 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: freespirited
Personally, I... I care that he is a phony.

That is one of the many reason I wouldn't vote for him.

57 posted on 10/07/2011 6:11:45 PM PDT by JakeS
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To: Count of Monte Logan; Paperdoll

What is it the paper said which is incorrect? lds have secret temple ceremonies and all that goes with that. Enlighten us about what was said is wrong, rather than attacking the poster personally, if you are able that is.


58 posted on 10/07/2011 6:12:26 PM PDT by svcw (Those who are easily shocked... should be shocked more often. - Mae West)
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To: Count of Monte Logan
From the main-stream Christian apostate perspective, you could argue doctrine that way.

What particular doctrine are you referring to?

59 posted on 10/07/2011 6:14:08 PM PDT by jimmyray
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To: Kakaze

Romney is a phony and a statist. Whether that has to do with his Mormonism or not doesn’t matter.


60 posted on 10/07/2011 6:17:38 PM PDT by grumpygresh (Democrats delenda est)
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To: Count of Monte Logan
Perhaps this one?

Isaiah 43:10: “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.” Of course, that is just a verse, but it does support the monotheism I referred to.

61 posted on 10/07/2011 6:18:06 PM PDT by jimmyray
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To: ilovesarah2012

The Mormon “jesus” returns not to Jerusalem, Israel but to adam-ondi-ahman near Gallatin, Missouri where Adam and Eve had been driven out of the Garden of Eden in Jackson County, Missouri — basically Kansas City, Missouri and nearby Independence, Missouri where a huge spire marks the RLDS Auditorium (an offshoot). There are other cities in JCM. Mormons and RLDS are decent people but Joseph Smith created all sorts of bizarre stuff for which there is no archaeological evidence. Someone can post a pic of adam-ondi-ahman.


62 posted on 10/07/2011 6:23:20 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: ilovesarah2012

Ok


63 posted on 10/07/2011 6:24:08 PM PDT by svcw (Those who are easily shocked... should be shocked more often. - Mae West)
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To: ilovesarah2012

The Mormon “jesus” returns not to Jerusalem, Israel but to adam-ondi-ahman near Gallatin, Missouri where Adam and Eve had been driven out of the Garden of Eden in Jackson County, Missouri — basically Kansas City, Missouri and nearby Independence, Missouri where a huge spire marks the RLDS Auditorium (an offshoot). There are other cities in JCM. Mormons and RLDS are decent people but Joseph Smith created all sorts of bizarre stuff for which there is no archaeological evidence.


64 posted on 10/07/2011 6:24:20 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: F15Eagle

I wouldn’t vote for anyone who believes all that.


65 posted on 10/07/2011 6:24:49 PM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: F15Eagle

Joey Smith was the earlier version of L. Ron Hubbard.


66 posted on 10/07/2011 6:27:55 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: ilovesarah2012

It was taught not only early on but by Bruce McConkie in the 1970’s, who I believe was married to a daughter of Joseph Fielding Smith, son of Joseph Smith. Hope somebody Googles the image and posts because I cannot from this device.


67 posted on 10/07/2011 6:34:09 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: jimmyray

The Godhead is one in purpose, not in physicality.

The meeting in Constantinople in the early centuries AD was really confused on this matter. You are similarly confused.


68 posted on 10/07/2011 6:37:41 PM PDT by Count of Monte Logan
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To: hinckley buzzard
This Perry guy illustrates Christian bigotry at its smelliest.

He's not a "Perry guy". See exerpt from the article below:

"Jeffress said that he had not spoken with Perry about his views on Romney's faith and was “in no way speaking for him.” In an email, Perry campaign spokesman Robert Black said that the campaign didn’t choose Jeffress to introduce Perry and does not share his view of Mormonism."

69 posted on 10/07/2011 6:40:20 PM PDT by alicewonders
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To: dfwgator

This is simple fundamentalist, anti-Mormon activist talking points. It’s not a serious post, and I wish I could find an intelligent anti-Mormon activist. Most all the anti-Mormon Freepers I have seen here don’t understand their own beliefs..the basics of their own religion. You draw near to the Lord with your lips, but your hearts are far from him.

You don’t understand charity, the pure love of Christ. You must not live charity.. or you wouldn’t post such stuff.


70 posted on 10/07/2011 6:42:19 PM PDT by Count of Monte Logan
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To: Count of Monte Logan
The Godhead is one in purpose, not in physicality.

OkeeDokee then.

John 14:8-11(NIV) 8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

71 posted on 10/07/2011 6:44:10 PM PDT by jimmyray
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To: Count of Monte Logan

What’s wrong with being anti-mormon? I’m also anti-islam. So?


72 posted on 10/07/2011 6:44:30 PM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: Count of Monte Logan
You don’t understand charity, the pure love of Christ. You must not live charity.. or you wouldn’t post such stuff.

Jesus, when confronted with false doctrine: "Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." Matt 22:29 (NIV)

73 posted on 10/07/2011 6:48:16 PM PDT by jimmyray
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To: dfwgator

That is why I and the other try to show what JS and BY and other main men have taught. I spent some time this summer helping to prepare and serve food in an RLDS summer camp a couple months ago. We served about 100 people on the biggest day, a Saturday. I enjoyed the work (non-paid). They were all great people but I didn’t become a disciple of Joseph Smith due to what I know. Had a good time around kind, decent folk, though.


74 posted on 10/07/2011 6:49:23 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: Coldwater Creek

“I like you believe that Mormonism is a cult, but if Mitt is the nominee he gets my vote.”

Sure, he’ll get my vote but other than showing up in the voting booth, I will not lift a finger to help get this guy elected.

Further, I don’t think Mitt is nearly as “electable” as the MSM and GOP establishment would like us to believe. If he’s the nominee, the MSM and Obama’s billion dollar machine will be able to shine a pretty bright spotlight on Mitt’s numerous inconsistencies over the years-and there have been far more and the flip flops are much more blatant and transparent than any other candidate. They’re silent about it now, but I guarantee you this is why they want him as the nominee, cause they know he will be easy to rip to shreds in the general.

This is why I think stopping Romney in the primary is nearly as important as beating Obama in the general. Not only is Romney a liberal Republican that is unlikable and inspires zero passion from the base, he would also have a very hard time getting elected in the general.


75 posted on 10/07/2011 6:49:33 PM PDT by lquist1
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To: Count of Monte Logan
The Godhead is one in purpose, not in physicality.

Interesting assertion.

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

John 1:1-3 "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. "

76 posted on 10/07/2011 6:51:34 PM PDT by jimmyray
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To: freespirited

“Every true, born again follower of Christ ought to embrace a Christian over a non-Christian.”

***

This guy needs to look up “unjust weights and measures” in the Bible.

That being said, I support Cain, then the most conservative person after that.


77 posted on 10/07/2011 6:56:21 PM PDT by ROTB (Christian sin breeds enemies for the USA. If you're a Christian, stop sinning, and spread the Word..)
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To: ilovesarah2012; Rodentking

And what they leave out is...Jesus is a created being, the spirit brother of Lucifer (who also applied to be Savior btw), that Jesus paid for sins in the Garden not on the cross, but it only kicks in after they have done all they can do and we have to pay Him back with our good works.

Then, let’s not forget, that to them ‘salvation by grace’ is only salvation from physical death (resurrection) and that is free (we will all be resurrected) but exaltation (LDS version of Christian Heaven - living with God) is based upon our membership in the LDS church and good works which will also result in godhood if they are good enough.

And their Jesus killed tens of thousands of unrighteous AFTER HIS CRUCIFIXION (which one leader said was because he was a polygamist) here on the American continent then bragged about it. (3 Nephi 4 - Book of Mormon)

Finally, The LDS Jesus was created by God having sex with Mary (she is one of his plural wives btw as well as being his spirit daughter) and is just like us, except God is his literal physical father (through sex) and thus our ‘elder brother’ Jesus is an example of how we can be morally perfect and live sinless lives on our own accord.

And, yes, I can source ALL of that with writings from LDS leaders, apostles and prophets.


78 posted on 10/07/2011 6:58:26 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see".)
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To: Count of Monte Logan

20,000 Count?

There are 20,000 polytheistic Christian churches?

I assume you have a valid list...


79 posted on 10/07/2011 7:02:49 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Count of Monte Logan

You know what is funny Count, I have had you peers on this very site argue that their Mormon faith is not polytheistic. And you wonder why your words ring hollow...


80 posted on 10/07/2011 7:09:20 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Count of Monte Logan

Oh, hello, Count. I am so sorry to ome against your faith. The Mormons I know are all seem to be succhsweet people. The tragedy is they are being so hideously misled. Are you a truth seeker? If so, please keep an open mind as you search into where you hang your hopes. Happy hunting.


81 posted on 10/07/2011 7:10:51 PM PDT by Paperdoll ( I like Herman Cain)
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To: freespirited
Here's hoping that these two RINOs (Romney and Perry) destroy one another so a conservative can run.
82 posted on 10/07/2011 7:11:39 PM PDT by bwc2221
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To: Count of Monte Logan

“I wish I could find one intelligent anti-Mormon activist. All the ones I see are like you and they don’t do justice to your cause.. whatever it is.”

I wish I could find one mormon that had any:

Facts
Logic
Evidence

... to support the wild claims of mormonism. There aren’t any. In the end, all they have is feelings and feelings to back up their feelings.


83 posted on 10/07/2011 7:14:41 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (You know, 99.99999965% of the lawyers give all of them a bad name)
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To: ilovesarah2012
But what do we mean when we say He is the Savior of the world? The Redeemer?

 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."
 - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321
 
 
"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88
 
 
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
 
 
There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
 
 
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
 - Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
 
 
 
"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"
 - Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670
 


They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.
He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.
He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.
As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.
Who has made this so?
Have I?
Have this people?
Have the world?
No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.
If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.
If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.
Can you pass without his inspection?
No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.
In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.
They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?
They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
 Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224

84 posted on 10/07/2011 7:26:29 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: lquist1

I do Romney.agree with you on stopping


85 posted on 10/07/2011 7:27:47 PM PDT by Coldwater Creek (He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty Psalm 91:)
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To: Elsie

Mormons are crazy.


86 posted on 10/07/2011 7:28:23 PM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: paudio
Like it or not, there will be some conservatives who will not vote for Romney because he’s a Mormon, not because of his positions on policy issues.

Like it or not, there will be a VERY HIGH percentage who vote for Romney because he’s a Mormon, not because of his positions on policy issues.

87 posted on 10/07/2011 7:28:38 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: rickomatic
If Mittens is the nominee...

HELLO!!

He couldn't even beat McCain last time!!!

88 posted on 10/07/2011 7:33:15 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Count of Monte Logan
All the ones I see are like you...

Even me??

89 posted on 10/07/2011 7:34:41 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: rickomatic
Anyone else notice the sudden appearance of “....and I’m a Mormon” ads on TV in their media markets? You don’t suppose they have anything to do with trying to counter the perception of Mormons being “kinda strange”, do you? It’s that perception, whether right or wrong (I am personally a born again Christian and believe that Mormonism is a cult) that will take votes away from Mittens.

It's a campaign by the Mormons

If anything, it's going to draw more people into looking at Romney and the Mormons. I seriously doubt the timing is coincidence either.
90 posted on 10/07/2011 7:34:50 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: Count of Monte Logan
Again, I just don’t find much in terms of intelligent discussion....

Yeah; I sure know what you mean!


 

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses  5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses  8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses  8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses  10:230).
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses , vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

91 posted on 10/07/2011 7:36:45 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Ripliancum
You seem to be either forgetting or intentionally leaving out the fact that Mitt was a hometown hero after saving the Olympics in Utah.

How did he DO that?

With whose money??

92 posted on 10/07/2011 7:38:08 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Count of Monte Logan
If you go back to the early centuries of Christianity (Cnstantinople meetings), the evidence of apostasy in terms of the knowledge of God, his son and the Holy Ghost was already lost to the World. That’s where the Catholic church was derived from that we have today, and the Lutheran revisions, while good intentioned, was still coming from an apostate foundation.

The argument here is circular. It follows a line of reasoning that presumes that Mormonism is the only true Church, therefore anything that disagrees with a Mormon view must be false. Thus any evidence from the first few centuries of the Church that disagrees with mormonism must be apostate. Your logic is tantamount to saying I am right because I am right. It ignores the possibility that Mormonism could be false and provides no justification for the claim. In order to make your case, you must demonstrate that most of the followers of Jesus embraced what Mormonism teaches and then betrayed those teachings.

What evidence of apostasy do you have? When did your proposed apostasy occur?

There are many historical resources from the Apostolic Age that indicate that traditional Christian doctrines (that I presume that you are calling apostate) were taught well before the Councils of Nicaea or Constantinople. For instance, you have St. Ignatius of Antioch ordained bishop of Antioch by Peter and a personal pupil of the John the Apostle wrote that the bread and wine of the sacrament were really and truly the flesh and blood of Christ. He wrote in the 1st and 2nd Century A.D. and was martyred in 107 A.D. He obviously was no coward and would rather die than apostatize which give some degree of weight to his teachings. There is also the Didache of the Late 1st Century A.D. which disagrees with many Mormon positions concerning doctrines of baptism and the Lord's Supper, etc. Tertullian discusses the Trinity in the third century and is the first to use that word, but the concept is discussed earlier. Other sources concerning the Church from the time of the Apostles are Clement of Rome, Polycarp of Smyrna, etc. The list of sources from before Nicea and Constantinople goes on all of the way back to the time of the Apostles and they are very supportive of Traditional Christianity.

93 posted on 10/07/2011 7:39:35 PM PDT by old republic
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To: Count of Monte Logan
But your views on the nature of God are based on old sectarian notions, interpreting Biblical scriptures in a way to fit your own beliefes, not revelation from God to clarify such issues directly.

How does an intelligent person differentiate between the two?

94 posted on 10/07/2011 7:40:29 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Count of Monte Logan
Your interpretations are in conflict with 20,000 other Christian churchs.

ALL of those?

I guess that leaves about 180,000 that are in agreement; right?

95 posted on 10/07/2011 7:41:39 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: hinckley buzzard
This Perry guy illustrates Christian bigotry at its smelliest.

You are SO right!!!

I just HATE when that happens!!





"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."

Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.



Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi 5: 21 'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

Alma 3: 6 'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'



August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after."

"He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage."

"That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace'...."

(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)



1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,

"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."



We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.

According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.



Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:

"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.

The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."

(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).



When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:

"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."



When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."

(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)





Yeah; Native Americans are althroughout the Book of MORMON; too.

 

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents—on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.

One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.

 

(Improvement Era, December 1960, pp.922-23). (p. 209)

 



 

96 posted on 10/07/2011 7:43:17 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: hinckley buzzard
I guess this means "evangelicals" would prefer to have a moslem over a Mormon.

Guessing again?

Are you PERSONALLY bigoted against MUSLIMS?

97 posted on 10/07/2011 7:44:54 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Count of Monte Logan
You are similarly confused.


98 posted on 10/07/2011 7:47:23 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: freespirited

The Christianity issue aside, Mittens is very likely a nominal Mormon.


99 posted on 10/07/2011 7:48:27 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: Count of Monte Logan
You don’t understand charity, the pure love of Christ.

You have a point...


 


 
Matthew 15:16
   "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Matthew 23
 
  1.  Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
  2.  "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
  3.  So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
  4.  They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
  5.  "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries  wide and the tassels on their garments long;
  6.  they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
  7.  they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
  8.  "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
  9.  And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
 10.  Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
 11.  The greatest among you will be your servant.
 12.  For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
 13.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 
 14.  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 
 15.   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 
 16.  "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
 17.  You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
 18.  You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
 19.  You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
 20.  Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
 21.  And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
 22.  And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
 23.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
 24.  You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
 25.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
 26.  Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
 27.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!  You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
 28.  In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
 29.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
 30.  And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
 31.  So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
 32.  Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
 33.  "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
 34.  Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
 35.  And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
 36.  I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
 37.  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
 38.  Look, your house is left to you desolate.
 39.  For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
 


Mark 7:26-27
 26.  The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
 27.  "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
 

And St. Paul chimes in...

Galatians 5:12
   As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
 


100 posted on 10/07/2011 7:49:16 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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