Posted on 10/17/2011 2:40:44 PM PDT by sklar
And if the Dems/Media Complex can successfully paint 9-9-9 as "Voodoo economics" or a "half-baked dangerous scheme" or something, and we let the Cain Train reach critical mass and he WINS the GOP Nomination... We will get SLAUGHTERED in 2012. Up and down the ticket.
i believe to the person asking a question there is no such thing as a stupid question..there are however many possible stupid answers...what we have now as a tax system is one of them.
in this corner: "voodoo economics" termed by the MSM
and in this corner:
Baraqonomics
$4 gas
10% unemployment
record number on food stamps
recurring $1.5 trillion deficits
surging food prices
I'm putting my bet on the Hermanator
Baraq is the one who's gonna get slaughtered
Employer's half of Social Security, there's a solid 7.62% reduction in wages...
I'll give you the Capital gains tax since instead of 15% it will be a non-deductable "profit"and get hit with the lesser 9%. Better yet, that is going to absolutely kill Municipal Bonds, so I am for that. Then I'm looking at Cain's own website - what was all that noise about Empowerment Zones so that select businesses could escape some payroll taxes? if there was no payroll tax, then why the Empowerment Zones?
You still can’t tell the difference between gross income and profit? I don’t blame you, I blame the edujumakashun system for failing you.
We are at the tipping point when 50% of the voters don’t pay income taxes..if we dont fix the problem now we may fall off a cliff and pay more forever...its payers vs non payers...which side are you on?
Too tired to read all the posts. Been up since 2:00 AM.
But where do you think a pensioner’s monthly check comes from?
Some sort of a pension fund.
And how do funds generate their payments?
Dividends and stock sales. Elimination of capital gains tax and the dividend tax would automatically make all pensioners worth more.
And as someone said, there are supposedly 22 hidden taxes in most items.
Just look at the payroll tax alone. If an item made of steel goes through 20 companies to get to you, there are 22 companies figuring the labor costs which includes the tax burden and the worst part of it is the cost compunds because each succeding manufacturer adds his to that which he pays his vendor.
People like the author of this article have never figured the cost of a manufactured item. The are totally clueless.
Then I’m looking at Cain’s own website - what was all that noise about Empowerment Zones so that select businesses could escape some payroll taxes? if there was no payroll tax, then why the Empowerment Zones?
I can find empowerment zones, but can’t find anything about select businesses escaping payroll taxes, could you please provide a source? thanks
Agree = some items will have more hidden taxes than others..raw materials labor different companies produce parts of a product, transportation etc..the list is Long and wide...cut down the corporate taxes on each of those companies /materials involved in production and you are talking real money..(corporate taxes are in that way a pyramid/compounded like a vat tax)
You still can't tell the difference between taxes imposed ONLY on domestic producers and taxes borne on goods sold by BOTH domestic and foreign producers?
You still can't comprehend the fact that the US imposes much higher corporate taxes than countries we are competing with?
I do blame you for the ugliness and insults which you substitute for actual arguments.
Folks, when someone like "Theophilus" who is no "lover of God" or he would not be such an ugly and nasty person, resorts to insult we know his positions have little merit.
OK let's crunch some numbers. I own a company that sells 1 million widgets at $1 each. My labor costs are $500,000 and my materials costs are $250,000 for a profit of $250,000. I pay your 22% sales tax which brings my profit down to $195,000. Not bad at all.
Now we switch to the Cain world. I drop my prices by the 22% you claim I will so I now sell my widgets for $0.78 and my total revenue is $780,000. My labor costs remain the same $500,000 since, as Cain claims, the FICA is really an expense to them rather than me so. My profits had better remain the same at $195,000 or else my stock prices are going to tank. In order to get that $195,000 I need to gross $212,500 over expenses. So take my fixed labor costs of $500,000 and add to that the money I need to make in order to keep my profits level and we have a fixed cost of $712,500. See the problem here? Unless my materials costs go from $250,000 to $67500 then I'm hosed. That's not a drop of 22% but more like 75%. What are the chances of that happening?
So claims that there is a 22% tax overhead in the price of everything is absolutely bogus. The true fact is that under the Cain plan the odds of retail prices dropping by 5% is probably slim. The odds of them dropping by 22% is zero.
nice that you forgot to reduce your labor cost by the fica, basically 15ish% Also since your business is mostly intellectual property due to the upside-down labor/material cost, there are other advantages. You have a much better ability to sell your services overseas. And your still stuck in static modeling, which is beyond discredited.
“The increased tax on the pension is an issue.”
The taxation of pensions is not a straightforward process of are pensions taxed, or are pensions not taxed.
It depends.
The portion of a pension, if any, that IS taxable, is any portion that WAS NOT derived from their own personal pre-taxed contributions (employees’ own pension contributions made out of wages that were already taxed).
What is covered by that - is everything derived from what the employer contributed plus everything the derived from what the individual paid in the form of “tax sheltered” contributions. Personal “tax sheltered” contributions to a pension plan are where the employee forgoes a portion of the salary/wages, having it contributed directly to the pension and avoiding income taxes on that earned income, in the year earned. They’ve “sheltered” that income, to the years when they will be likely at a lower tax bracket - when they’ve retired.
Or, to put it the other way around - the portion of a pension, if any, that IS NOT taxable, is any portion that WAS derived from contributions the employee made from their own pre-taxed income (contributions made out of wages that were already taxed). The rest is taxable.
So, the taxable amount varies from plan to plan and individual to individual.
In as much as 9-9-9 ignores all these distinctions, the 9-9-9 tax results will vary just as widely with pensioners. Actually, those in any plan where everything was contributed by their employer alone, would actually get a good tax reduction. Their entire pension is taxable now, probably at least at 10%, but minus things like their rent/mortgage, what they save and invest, the rest - what they consume would only be taxed at 9% at the cash register. On the other side, those whose pensions contain a result from a substantial amount of personal pre-taxed contributions, the 9-9-9 tax result could be substantially different.
However, the big thing is that “difference” is the difference of a change. In the end, in the long run, the tax obligations of everyone would LESS different from each other than they are today.
The system of today is a system of favorites and benefits to the favorites. The 9-9-9 plan should be embraced by Liberals who love the term “universal” applied to anything. If there was anything as far as possible from “universal” about a tax system, that would ours at present. There is always immediate winners and losers in any big change. But, down the road, after the change has had time to settle in, everyone should be able to see that instead of preferences and favorites, under 9-9-9 we will all be paying taxes in a much more “universal” and non-preferential manner than today.
9-9-9 can be sold. Its a matter of how IT CAN be sold. Set the terms - fair, universal, even handed, against the current corrupt system and it - selling it - can be done.
You Cain people are never happy. You argue that people make out under the 9-9-9 plan because that 15% FICA tax is a tax on them. Now you argue no, that whole FICA is a tax on the business. You can't have it both ways, so in my comparison I went with Cain's claim that FICA is entirely a tax on the employee. That's why labor costs don't change.
You have a much better ability to sell your services overseas.
Unless my labor costs go down 3 or 4 times as much as you claim they will then I won't be making much of anything.
And your still stuck in static modeling, which is beyond discredited.
Then by all means let's see you come up with figures of your own.
Are you GM? If not, subtract your 35% corporate tax rate from your 195,000 profit. I think the point is that 22% are hidden taxes that is above and beyond what your already paying.
Actually if I'm Ford I take my rate down to about 2.5%. If I'm Bank of America my rate is 0%, less actually since I get a refund. Few if any corporations pay the 35% rate to the feds.
what part of total cost reduction are you having a problem with? BTW I’m not a cain guy. Just a person with a BS Yes BS not BA in economics. Personally I’d rather see Jindal or Rubio For no other reason then the dem’s would have to shut up or impeach obama.
The part where I can reduce my prices as much as you say I should while maintaining my current profits and with labor costs unchanged. Help me out here why don't ya?
your labor costs under a static model fall 15%
The plan penalizes big government and crony businesses, like colleges. How? These are all labor intensive. It favors rapid and wide deployment of capital. Prices will come down FAST in all areas.
The TRUE greedy class — academia, folks contracting labor to government and cronyists will get socked every way from Sunday.
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