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Parents' Attorney Doubts Cadaver Dogs [Lisa Irwin case]
FOX Kansas City ^ | 10/22/11

Posted on 10/22/2011 2:13:29 PM PDT by freespirited

The attorney representing the parents of Lisa Irwin said Saturday on a national news show that the cadaver dog "hit" referenced in the search warrant, could have other reasons, nothing to do with Lisa.

"My understanding is that there are cold cases where dogs have hit on scents of decomposition that had been in the home for as long as 28 years," Cyndy Short, with McCallister Law Firm, said to ABC's Good Morning America. "This is an old home, 63 years old. There could be a lot of other explanations for that," she said.

Nineteen days after 11-month old Lisa Irwin disappeared, Short also tried to clarify the reason Deborah Bradley told police she didn't look for her baby in the yard the night she disappeared.

"She was deathly afraid," Short said in the interview. "I think in that fear, not knowing what happened to that child, that she didn't want to find something in the backyard that might have been terrible."

On Sunday, Cyndy Short is scheduled to be interviewed by FOX 4. We will bring you a complete report from that interview on FOX 4 newscasts and FOX4KC.com.

Lisa disappeared October 4th. Police ask you to call the TIPS Hotline at 816-474-TIPS if you have any information helpful to the case.

(Excerpt) Read more at fox4kc.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: cadaverdogs; lisairwin
I was on the fence about what happened to this adorable little baby ... until now. The cadaver dog hit is one reason, but even bigger is learning that the mother says she didn't search the yard out of fear of what she might find.

This is just not credible to me. If I woke up and a family member was missing, especially an infant, I'd be out in the yard searching faster than the speed of light.

1 posted on 10/22/2011 2:13:33 PM PDT by freespirited
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To: freespirited

That line bothered me, too. When you love someone, it overrides the fears.


2 posted on 10/22/2011 2:16:34 PM PDT by HungarianGypsy
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To: freespirited

****I’d be out in the yard searching faster than the speed of light****

Or sending the daddy out to look. Which begs the question -what was he doing?.

There is an ongoing thread on this case - if this one gets pulled for duplication:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2796164/posts


3 posted on 10/22/2011 2:20:40 PM PDT by sodpoodle (Cain - touching the better angels of our nature.)
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To: freespirited

AND screaming for help at the top of my lungs if my phone was missing.


4 posted on 10/22/2011 2:22:37 PM PDT by MestaMachine (obama kills)
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To: sodpoodle

The father had just started a new job working the night shift.


5 posted on 10/22/2011 2:23:12 PM PDT by Andy'smom
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6 posted on 10/22/2011 2:23:35 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: Andy'smom

The baby was discovered ‘missing’ by the father when he returned from work. So my question applies - why didn’t he go outside and search the yard.

Probably fenced, because they have a dog.

My first instinct would be that she climbed out of her crib and out the open door.


7 posted on 10/22/2011 2:30:26 PM PDT by sodpoodle (Cain - touching the better angels of our nature.)
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To: freespirited

They didn’t look outside, won’t ask 6 and 8 year olds if they recall hearing/seeing anything, never tried to call their cell phones to see if someone answered and keep going in front of the cameras to explain her “adult time” drinking. The defense will try to turn this into a distraught woman who just didn’t know what to do when the baby died accidently.


8 posted on 10/22/2011 2:35:17 PM PDT by WhyisaTexasgirlinPA
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To: Andy'smom

I thought it was a one time night shift? Was this going to be an ongoing time slot?


9 posted on 10/22/2011 2:36:24 PM PDT by WhyisaTexasgirlinPA
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To: freespirited
I've always been of the understanding that such dogs 'hit' on decomp - and if the baby died in the home, it sure as heck wouldn't have hit that stage in ten hours.

This is a weird story all around, though.

10 posted on 10/22/2011 2:39:14 PM PDT by ErnBatavia (Obama Voters: Jose Baez wants YOU for his next jury pool.......)
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To: WhyisaTexasgirlinPA

No doubt you are right, it will be an accident defense. However if they find the body in time, the evidence may prove otherwise.

I don’t know what happened but my best guess is that the mother shook her because she wouldn’t stop crying.


11 posted on 10/22/2011 2:40:19 PM PDT by freespirited (Stupid people are ruining America. --Herman Cain)
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To: ErnBatavia

I have read that when a body is on a surface, cells can slough off that are of course invisible to the naked eye. However, the cells continue to break down after the body is removed, producing the cadaver smell.


12 posted on 10/22/2011 2:43:13 PM PDT by freespirited (Stupid people are ruining America. --Herman Cain)
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To: freespirited

I’m really betting an accident......A 10 month old....left her on the bed and turned her back....It’s a 2 second thing...and yes it happens every day....


13 posted on 10/22/2011 2:43:52 PM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: freespirited

The latest from Websleuths:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=463


14 posted on 10/22/2011 2:44:45 PM PDT by Mountain Mary (Capitalism is the right of the individual to pursue happiness and keep the fruits of their labor.)
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To: freespirited
My understanding is that cadaver dogs hit upon the scent of decomposition. I doubt very seriously if sufficient decomposition would have set in in the time the child's supposedly dead body lay in the house. The mother was out buying diapers, evidently in high spirits, just a few hours before the supposed disappearance; it's not likely she would have been doing that had the child been already dead.

In other developments, three eyewitnesses in two separate locations near the child's home saw a man in a t-shirt carrying a baby clad only in a diaper. The first sighting occurred around midnight on the night of the disappearance; the second four hours later and three miles away.

My opinion ... and it's only an opinion ... is that the mother is guilty of getting drunk and falling asleep with the house wide open to an opportunistic criminal.

15 posted on 10/22/2011 2:53:11 PM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: freespirited
However, the cells continue to break down after the body is removed, producing the cadaver smell.

A typical house is full of dead cells shed from its living occupants. If you knew how much dead skin was in your mattress, you probably wouldn't want to sleep on it.

16 posted on 10/22/2011 2:54:56 PM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: Mr Ramsbotham

If these three witnesses had come out on day one or day two....I might believe this story. I do accept the fact that three different folks saw this weird guy, and it has value. But if so....then it’s a homeless guy (he didn’t drive away and literally walked blocks and blocks). If you add this into the script....this guy is still within five miles of the neighborhood....living under some bridge or in some tent.


17 posted on 10/22/2011 3:15:05 PM PDT by pepsionice
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To: sodpoodle

It was reported early on Jeremy went outside to look for her, I believe prior to calling 911 or perhaps after he had called. Not sure, but he/she said he looked outside.

There are so many conflicting stories about their timelines that they have obviously been lying. I hate to think that baby is dead but the cadaver dog hit has me pretty much convinced.


18 posted on 10/22/2011 3:45:54 PM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: Andy'smom

From what I’ve read and according to the People article, this was a second job, helping a “friend” at the Starbucks that evening. It was reported he thought he would be home about 10:00 pm but the job took longer than expected but he couldn’t call Deborah since their cell phones weren’t working because of not paying the bill. However, Deborah said the phones could receive calls but they couldn’t make outgoing calls. They are both lying.


19 posted on 10/22/2011 3:48:34 PM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: freespirited

She didn’t want to search the yard out of fear of what she’d find? Bull dung! A mom instinctively races out there to maybe get there just in time and save the child! A mother would risk everything to save her child! Except these strange murdering moms in the news...


20 posted on 10/22/2011 3:49:57 PM PDT by Yaelle (Is FR worth one good restaurant meal a month? Then donate that amount.)
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To: freespirited

Absolutely incredible that she didn’t run out to look. I’m sorry but your child is missing and the ONLY thing on your mind is to find them... no matter WHAT!

Case in point, when my 3rd daughter was about 2 years old she woke up early and SOMEHOW managed to unlock the front door and walk down the block. Thankfully a neighbor saw and came and woke me up. Half asleep, and sans clothing except a robe with no belt that I threw on to answer the door I IMMEDIATELY bolted out the front door to find her... Running down the sidewalk I tripped and gave my neighbors a real eyeful when I fell down. Now bleeding, I saw her up ahead on the block and the ONLY thing I cared about was getting to her, and praying to God she didn’t decide to cross the street to get to me. Over the last 20 years raising my four daughters we’ve had a couple of scares with “temporarily missing” kids (thankfully no bad outcomes). EVERY time it happened the ONLY thing on my mind was finding them and making sure they were OK. NOTHING ELSE MATTERED AT ALL until I could make sure they were fine...

Heck, when my oldest two were REALLY little my daughter got “lost” (standing behind the neighbor’s car and hidden by the wheel when I looked in their driveway). I was hysterical, and IMMEDIATELY called the police - thankfully my daughter decided that the car was boring to look at and came back into the backyard before they dispatched anyone.

Like you said, I can’t possibly even imagine NOT searching the yard IMMEDIATELY, and then the block, and then the neighborhood!!! It doesn’t pass the test of what an average person would do in that situation at all...

(PS - Regarding my first story... Why NONE of my neighbors who were outside leaving for work actually stopped my daughter and held on to her I’ll NEVER understand.)


21 posted on 10/22/2011 3:51:08 PM PDT by LibertyRocks
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To: Andy'smom
"The father had just started a new job working the night shift"

I originally heard that when he returned home from work is the first anyone knew of a problem......He came home, and lights were all on, phones gone, baby gone. Has that changed?

22 posted on 10/22/2011 3:53:55 PM PDT by matthew fuller (9-9-9 ? Just say No! No! No!)
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To: pepsionice

***If these three witnesses had come out on day one or day two....I might believe this story.***

The young couple reported the sighting the next day when they learned of Lisa’s disappearance. The motorcycle guy waited a week. I believe the police kept a lid on those reports - there have been hundreds of tips and not all of them reach the media.

There are two possibilities. The guy with the baby was a stranger or a relative (brother?) who was called to help the mother out or was ‘teaching her a lesson’. Maybe he wanted more wine.


23 posted on 10/22/2011 3:54:51 PM PDT by sodpoodle (Cain - touching the better angels of our nature.)
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To: MestaMachine

No Sh*t!!! I guarantee that EVERYONE on my block would be awake and outside wondering what in the heck was wrong within 5 minutes regardless of what time it was... The ONLY reason I can see for her NOT to search and/or become completely hysterical is because she KNEW what she might “find”. There is no way I could be on a jury and be convinced that she wasn’t involved simply due to her immediate reactions to finding her baby missing...


24 posted on 10/22/2011 3:57:53 PM PDT by LibertyRocks
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To: ErnBatavia
"I've always been of the understanding that such dogs 'hit' on decomp - and if the baby died in the home, it sure as heck wouldn't have hit that stage in ten hours. "

Nurses have told my family that there is a smell associated with death (detectable to people) a few minutes before a patient dies.

25 posted on 10/22/2011 3:58:23 PM PDT by matthew fuller (9-9-9 ? Just say No! No! No!)
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To: sodpoodle
The father was working until 4 AM. The question I have is what about the guy that was seen walking along the road around 4 AM carrying a baby. Was he acquainted with the wife? A boyfriend etc?
26 posted on 10/22/2011 3:58:57 PM PDT by Average Al (Forbidden fruit leads to many jams.)
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To: sodpoodle

And she closed the door behind her???


27 posted on 10/22/2011 4:05:17 PM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: pepsionice
But if so....then it’s a homeless guy (he didn’t drive away and literally walked blocks and blocks).

Not necessarily so. In the first instance, he might simply have been walking toward his vehicle; in the second instance walking from his residence on Randolph Street toward that big patch of wooded area on 48th.

28 posted on 10/22/2011 4:05:17 PM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: Average Al

As far as I have read - the ‘baby carrier’ has not been identified. Would not be the father - because he called 911 at 4:00 am. when he returned to the house from work. Don’t know which phone he used.

Additionally, a witness(es) reported seeing the man carrying the baby at 12:00am. The sightings were 4 miles apart.


29 posted on 10/22/2011 4:06:42 PM PDT by sodpoodle (Cain - touching the better angels of our nature.)
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To: sodpoodle

I thought I heard the male witness say he saw the man with the baby around 4 AM.


30 posted on 10/22/2011 4:08:33 PM PDT by Average Al (Forbidden fruit leads to many jams.)
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To: Mr Ramsbotham

So did this “criminal” just randomly go up to homes and see if the door was unlocked? Didn’t bother taking anything other than a baby in a diaper, didn’t get a blanket, and grabbed three cell phones and went walking around the neighborhood with the baby in 45 degree weather for four hours and the baby didn’t even cry?


31 posted on 10/22/2011 4:09:17 PM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012

If the sightings are authentic - someone was carrying a dead baby. Seen at 12:00am by a couple in the neighborhood and 4:00 am. by a guy on a motor cycle. I believe that’s correct.

(on another post re Lisa walking out of the house - you are good. Agree - an 11 month old could only leave if the door was open. But we don’t know if it was just unlocked or fully open) So many stories and one little baby.


32 posted on 10/22/2011 4:15:05 PM PDT by sodpoodle (Cain - touching the better angels of our nature.)
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To: sodpoodle

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/19/3218089/16-days-in-the-lisa-irwin-case.html

Time line through October 19th.


33 posted on 10/22/2011 4:19:31 PM PDT by sodpoodle (Cain - touching the better angels of our nature.)
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To: LibertyRocks

What a harrowing tale!! I would not only do same for any child but also our dogs.

Baby Lisa’s mother is quite an actress. A better liar than Casey Anthony.


34 posted on 10/22/2011 4:24:47 PM PDT by freespirited (Stupid people are ruining America. --Herman Cain)
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To: sodpoodle

I have not heard any reports that the door was standing open - only that it was unlocked.


35 posted on 10/22/2011 4:26:52 PM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012

Me either - so much left to speculation. That’s where the mother has left LE, the public and the media.

The more questions the longer it will take to find that precious baby.

Gonna retire for the evening.

Great discussion ILS


36 posted on 10/22/2011 4:35:36 PM PDT by sodpoodle (Cain - touching the better angels of our nature.)
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To: freespirited
Or rolled over on her, drunk.

I keep going back in my mind to her defense of herself for her "adult time" - a normal, grieving parent would be castigating herself for doing something so stupid - saying how she would never do it again - instead this numbskull is more worried about the police closing in on her. It's only a matter of time - she isn't bright enough to pull this off for long and they will make a deal with the baby daddy to tell the truth

37 posted on 10/22/2011 4:43:55 PM PDT by WhyisaTexasgirlinPA
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To: freespirited

It really was quite a scary situation... Writing about it, and thinking about it even now (13 years later) STILL gets my heart beating and the adrenalin flowing, and if I let myself I’m SURE I could very easily feel the fear that I remember. It’s just under the surface, all these years later — just THINKING about what could have happened... I will never understand how anyone even THINKS they could lie and get away with something in the first place (thinking of Susan Smith, and Casey Anthony for a couple examples).

God forgive me if I’m wrong about this woman, but I think she may know more than perhaps she can even bring herself to face. (I’m really wondering just how drunk she really was... absolutely passed out? Still can’t imagine not having the adrenaline kick the butt of all that alcohol upon finding your baby is gone! I could imagine a drunk stumbling and screaming trying to counteract the effects of the alcohol and STILL looking for the child...). I’m glad God is the final judge because I don’t think I could presume innocence in these cases, frankly.


38 posted on 10/22/2011 5:07:16 PM PDT by LibertyRocks
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To: ilovesarah2012
So did this “criminal” just randomly go up to homes and see if the door was unlocked? Didn’t bother taking anything other than a baby in a diaper, didn’t get a blanket, and grabbed three cell phones and went walking around the neighborhood with the baby in 45 degree weather for four hours and the baby didn’t even cry?

That's the kind of sophistry that made idiots out of the Boulder PD.

39 posted on 10/22/2011 5:50:18 PM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: ErnBatavia
I've always been of the understanding that such dogs 'hit' on decomp - and if the baby died in the home, it sure as heck wouldn't have hit that stage in ten hours.

Cadaver dogs can pick up the scent of a corpse in as little as 3 hours after death.

You can learn a lot of interesting things if you google 'cadaver dogs'. A dogs' sense of smell is nothing short of amazing.

40 posted on 10/22/2011 6:03:14 PM PDT by elli1
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To: Mr Ramsbotham

So you think that scenario is a possibility? I think if that man was indeed carrying Lisa, she was dead. The cops have had three weeks to check out the story. Wonder what they found? They sure aren’t releasing much information. I believed Lisa would be found alive until the cadaver dog hit.


41 posted on 10/22/2011 6:06:02 PM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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Please hurry and donate! If not, I will soon post a Waxman Picture!
Click it !

42 posted on 10/22/2011 6:11:37 PM PDT by RedMDer (Forward With Confidence!)
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To: ilovesarah2012
I think if that man was indeed carrying Lisa, she was dead.

Probably, if you're referring to the second sighting. If I were the cops I'd comb the wooded areas at the corner of 48th and Randolph; the guy was headed in that direction when the motorcyclist spotted him. One is inclined to think that this person wasn't acting rationally, assuming he's the perp. Dressed in a t-shirt on a 45-degree night, walking right down the street with the kidnapped, possibly dead baby in his arms. A meth addict, maybe?

43 posted on 10/22/2011 6:18:43 PM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: Mr Ramsbotham

The last thing a meth addict is looking for is a dead baby to haul around (or a live baby). If there was indeed a man carrying Lisa around, it is a relative of Deborah or Jeremy, IMHO.


44 posted on 10/22/2011 6:28:14 PM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012
If there was indeed a man carrying Lisa around, it is a relative of Deborah or Jeremy, IMHO.

I can't really see that in this case, once again, assuming the guy is the perp. It's irrational behavior, the kind you'd expect from a hard-case drug addict, or psychotic, or both. I'm not ready to speculate on an elaborate conspiracy theory drummed up by several members of a family that has really shown (as far as I can see) no predilection for the kind of actions we're looking at here, particularly at such short notice.

The authorities right now are doing what I call "playing the paradigm." They've no rational explanation for what happened; they can't break anyone down (which I think would be easy to do if any of these family members had been involved), and since the mother was the only one at home at the time, it's got to be her by default. And it's not just the police: every damned amateur sleuth out there has got the woman tried, convicted and fried. And there's only one element that's wanting to complete the case, namely, evidence.

45 posted on 10/22/2011 6:46:33 PM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: freespirited
I wonder if they'll doubt these...

46 posted on 10/22/2011 6:50:45 PM PDT by az.b1bbomberfxr
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To: Mr Ramsbotham

I remember a report near the beginning about a text message - not clear if it was reported sent from a cell phone of theirs or received - but it read “ready when you are” at about 2:30-2:40. Never have been able to confirm if it is true. If it is true, I would think the cops know who sent/received it. I just wish we knew more about what the cops actually know.


47 posted on 10/22/2011 7:47:14 PM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012
I remember a report near the beginning about a text message - not clear if it was reported sent from a cell phone of theirs or received - but it read “ready when you are” at about 2:30-2:40.

I did a search on that, and based on what I found, I believe it was just a rumor.

Something interesting I did find in my searches is that at the corner of 48th and Randolph, where the motorcyclist claims to have seen the man and baby at 4:00 a.m., there's a company called "Kids Creation," that specializes in very elaborate wooden playsets for children. Believe it or not, there's what appears to be an incredibly elaborate wooden playset in the back yard of the Irwin house.

48 posted on 10/23/2011 1:54:20 AM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: Mr Ramsbotham

From Deborah’s aunt. I assume it is true.

“Thanks FatCat for the update on the man with a baby.

Just saw this on FB (pretty bold statement):

Johnny Chiaravallotti:

In 2001 , My sister Lisa passed away from a suspicious ‘accidental drug overdose’. Lisa was the mother of Debbie , the mother of this missing 10 month old. This missing baby was named after her deceased grandmother. I am the Uncle of the mother (Debbie) of this missing child. My sister Lisa had 3 kids and was estranged from her husband , who was thousands of dollars behind in back child support and was living in Delaware close to his estranged wife and his 3 kids. He did not like it on the east coast. He was from Kansas City. My 36 year old sister mysteriously died from what they called an ‘accidental overdose’. After her death , her estranged husband who owed thousands in back child support and didn’t like living in Delaware anyway , took his 3 kids and returned to Kansas City. Debbie , the mother of this missing child , is one of them 3 kids. Now here we are 10 years after the mysterious and suspicious death of my 36 year old sister Lisa ... and the 10 month old baby who was named after her is missing. I have no been in contact with them for a few years so I don’t know what’s been going on in Missouri. But I will say that I have always been suspicious about my sister Lisa’s estranged husband and whether or not he was involved in her death. He had plenty of motive. And he left Delaware very fast. Lisa’s death looked like an accident so it was ruled an accident. But I know my sister and she was smarter than that. And her death occurred on the 10th birthday of her youngest son who found her dead in bed on his birthday. Is the disappearance of this child and the suspicious death of my sister connected ? Is this just a coincidence ? We have one Lisa dead and another Lisa missing. I love my niece Debbie , the mother of this missing child. And I have no idea who her boyfriend is. Nor do I know what was going on in their lives in the past few years. But I do know that I lost my sister Lisa 10 years ago and I will always be very suspicious about her death. Now this poor child is missing. I am curious to know if her grandfather was around.”

https://www.facebook.com/find.lisa?sk=wall

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=12149.380


49 posted on 10/23/2011 6:55:04 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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