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Cold Fusion Experiment: Major Success or Complex Hoax?
Fox News ^ | November 02, 2011 | John Brandon

Posted on 11/02/2011 11:41:45 AM PDT by isaiah55version11_0

A physicist in Italy claims to have demonstrated a new type of power plant that provides safe, cheap and virtually unlimited nuclear power to the world, without fossil fuels or radiation concerns.

The only hitch: Scientists say the method -- cold fusion -- is patently impossible. They say it defies the laws of physics.

Andrea Rossi doesn't seem to care. He told FoxNews.com that his new device takes in nickel and hydrogen and fuses them in a low-grade nuclear reaction that essentially spits out sheer power, validating the strange science.

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: coldfusion; ecat; lenr; rossi
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To: count-your-change

Like Wonder Warthog says, read the actual data.


101 posted on 11/02/2011 5:30:08 PM PDT by Kevmo (Judicaret spectator se ipso: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Dude, I "teach" engineers about instrumentation and measurement. I design instrumentation for a living (and have done that the mentioned forty year period).

Dude, I am confused. First you say your expertise is analytical chemistry, now you are saying your expertise is electrical engineering?

102 posted on 11/02/2011 5:31:16 PM PDT by NewinTexsas
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To: NewinTexsas
"I looked at 'primary data' for the 10/6 test. The weighing device was a bathroom scale calibrated to two people that knew their weight."

There's another defense for Rossi at his trial. He'll say those who did due diligence shouldn't have given me money. All the hype was done by bloggers and reporters.

103 posted on 11/02/2011 5:46:29 PM PDT by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: Kevmo

Is the 14,700 figure found there?


104 posted on 11/02/2011 6:17:28 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

yes


105 posted on 11/02/2011 6:19:58 PM PDT by Kevmo (Judicaret spectator se ipso: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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To: Kevmo

Well please, don’t hesitate to point out where since you’ve quoted that figure several times and the links were to an abstract and pay per view.

So do please since it seems to be so important.


106 posted on 11/02/2011 6:28:23 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: barracuda1412

Finished your homework, yet?


107 posted on 11/02/2011 6:45:55 PM PDT by NewinTexsas
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To: count-your-change

It’s inside the document.

You’re the 2nd one who has asked about that and the I have not heard from the first one for many weeks. If I were wrong then he would have been loudly proclaiming it, just like we would expect you to be. But when it turns out I’m right, naturally I expect you will go silent.


108 posted on 11/02/2011 7:36:51 PM PDT by Kevmo (Judicaret spectator se ipso: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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To: count-your-change

Here’s where I first ran across the figure.

Scientific American

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=when-scientists-sin

1. Jed Rothwell
11:52 AM 6/20/10
Shermer says that Goodstein concluded that cold fusion was most likely a case of scientists who “convince themselves that they are in the possession of knowledge that does not in fact exist.”

Cold fusion has been replicated in over 180 major laboratories, by roughly 1,500 professional scientists. These replications have been published in roughly 800 papers in mainstream, peer reviewed journals such as J. Electroanal. Chem. and Japanese J. of Applied Physcis. J. He of the Institute of High Energy Physics, Chinese Academy of Sciences estimates that the effect has been observed in roughly 14,000 experimental runs (Front. Phys. China (2007) 1: 96 102).

Many of the results were at low signal to noise ratio, but others were high, such as heat from 10 to 100 W, and tritium at 50 times background (Los Alamos, Texas A&M) up to several million times (BARC).

Most of the researchers who have reported positive results are senior, distinguished experts, such as the Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, government of India, and the experts at Los Alamos in charge of the Tritium Systems Test Assembly and the Tokamak Fusion Test Reactor at Princton. Only senior researchers can get funding because of academic politics.

When a result has been widely replicated at high signal to noise ratios and reported in the literature, that result is real, by definition. There is no other standard of reality in science. If it were possible for hundreds of scientists in hundreds of laboratories to be wrong, the experimental method would not work, and no result would be meaningful, and science itself would not work. If Shermer and Goodstein would substitute some other standard of truth, and ignore replication and peer-review, they are engaged in some form of faith-based religion or a popularity contest, not science.


109 posted on 11/02/2011 8:28:29 PM PDT by Kevmo (Judicaret spectator se ipso: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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To: Kevmo; dinodino

Interesting. You quote a blog entry from Jed Rothwell (now haven’t I heard that name before?) to support your post. Interesting that the article you linked wasa ‘When Scientists Sin’ talking about scientific scams. One quote from the article:

“Other cases are not so clear. Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pon’s “discovery” of cold fusion, Goodstein concludes, was most likely a case of scientists who “convince themselves that they are in the possession of knowledge that does not in fact exist.” This self-deception is distinctly different from deliberate deception.”


110 posted on 11/02/2011 8:58:58 PM PDT by NewinTexsas
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To: NewinTexsas

Done with you. You went off the deep end.

Mountains, molehills, all that.

T4BTT


111 posted on 11/02/2011 9:00:49 PM PDT by Kevmo (Judicaret spectator se ipso: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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To: Kevmo
Not at all. In fact I pointed out where that figure (one persons estimate) came from some time ago.

It appears those experiments are of the Pons-Fleischmann variety not the mumbo-jumbo secret sauce circus type of Rossi’s.

Maybe Rossi has something but his demos have made all the claims so untrustworthy that they have no greater value than a used car salesman's promises.

Read the thread titled “Dutch Lord of the Data Forged Dozens of Studies”. Very smart and able people took his word and overlooked very obvious errors because they were either lazy or too unwilling to be objective.

112 posted on 11/02/2011 9:40:03 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: isaiah55version11_0
The only hitch: Scientists say the method -- cold fusion -- is patently impossible. They say it defies the laws of physics.

This is dumb-ass journalism. No one thinks that cold fusion violates the laws of physics. Quite the contrary: high school kids have built working cold fusion reactors on their tabletops. The problem, to date, has always been that these reactors required more energy to sustain the fusion reaction than they captured from the reaction itself.

113 posted on 11/02/2011 9:46:06 PM PDT by ChicagoHebrew (.)
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To: NewinTexsas
"Dude, I am confused. First you say your expertise is analytical chemistry, now you are saying your expertise is electrical engineering?"

Again....you think only electrical engineers can design instrumentation?? All my customers must be imagining the devices they have bought and used over the years.

But I see you still want to play the "thousand one-liner replies" game. Not gonna do that. Don't have either the time or the interest. Bye. Permanently.

114 posted on 11/03/2011 3:32:33 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: ChicagoHebrew
Quite the contrary: high school kids have built working cold fusion reactors on their tabletops.

Amazing. Link please. Thank you.

115 posted on 11/03/2011 7:54:05 AM PDT by NewinTexsas
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To: Wonder Warthog
All my customers

Rossi has customers too. He said it.

116 posted on 11/03/2011 7:55:12 AM PDT by NewinTexsas
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To: ChicagoHebrew
Quite the contrary: high school kids have built working cold fusion reactors on their tabletops.

Link Please.

117 posted on 11/03/2011 5:02:53 PM PDT by NewinTexsas
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To: count-your-change; fightinJAG

I pointed out where that figure (one persons estimate) came from some time ago.
***Sure you did. Why don’t you prove it to the lurkers and give us a link?

It appears those experiments are of the Pons-Fleischmann variety not the mumbo-jumbo secret sauce circus type of Rossi’s.
***They are all LENR experiments based on the P-F effect. All of them. Rossi’s invention only makes the Ni-H system more replicable.

Maybe Rossi has something
***Yes, he does. And it’s based on the 20 years of previous LENR experiments.

but his demos have made all the claims so untrustworthy that they have no greater value than a used car salesman’s promises.
***I agree his demos lack scientific proof, but they do not lack credibility. He’s a business man, so he does not care if his demos do not satisfy scientists, he only cares if they convince buyers.

Read the thread titled “Dutch Lord of the Data Forged Dozens of Studies”. Very smart and able people took his word and overlooked very obvious errors because they were either lazy or too unwilling to be objective.
***I’m not all that interested in looking at scams. Maybe JAG is interested. He seems to have the patience to think inductively about these things without calling you guys a bunch of seagulls.


118 posted on 11/03/2011 9:11:40 PM PDT by Kevmo (Judicaret spectator se ipso: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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To: count-your-change

but his demos have made all the claims so untrustworthy that they have no greater value than a used car salesman’s promises.
***I agree his demos lack scientific proof, but they do not lack credibility. He’s a business man, so he does not care if his demos do not satisfy scientists, he only cares if they convince buyers.

Something further: It is in a business man’s best interest to keep confidential information close to his vest. This is at odds with the scientific approach.


119 posted on 11/03/2011 9:14:09 PM PDT by Kevmo (Judicaret spectator se ipso: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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To: NewinTexsas

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2007/03/high_school_stu/


120 posted on 11/03/2011 10:12:43 PM PDT by ChicagoHebrew (.)
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To: NewinTexsas

http://www.lenr-canr.org/Experiments.htm#HighSchoolStudents


121 posted on 11/03/2011 10:14:29 PM PDT by ChicagoHebrew (.)
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To: Kevmo

From his bio, he ain’t much of a businessman...


122 posted on 11/03/2011 11:19:24 PM PDT by dinodino
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To: dinodino

Other than the fact that he generated an invention which will change the world, I’d agree with you.

That’s a little bit like calling the Wright brothers a couple of bicycle mechanics.


123 posted on 11/03/2011 11:21:46 PM PDT by Kevmo (Judicaret spectator se ipso: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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To: ChicagoHebrew

Your credibility just went to zero with that post. You really believe a high school student did it because he said he did it?


124 posted on 11/03/2011 11:27:30 PM PDT by NewinTexsas
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To: ChicagoHebrew

Your credibility just went negative with that garbage. No reputable lab would let them experiment like that without dosiemetry and shielding. Good Grief.


125 posted on 11/03/2011 11:28:40 PM PDT by NewinTexsas
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To: Kevmo
Other than the fact that he generated an invention which will change the world, I’d agree with you.

Who are you referencing?

126 posted on 11/03/2011 11:29:58 PM PDT by NewinTexsas
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To: NewinTexsas

I gave up on you a couple of threads ago. You went off the deep end.

T4BTT


127 posted on 11/03/2011 11:33:59 PM PDT by Kevmo (Judicaret spectator se ipso: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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To: Kevmo
If Rossi’s only desire was to sell his machines...well then, he's accomplished that, at least once, and can now take any number of orders.

Someone will buy one and take it apart to see what makes it work and then ActIII of the this comic opera will close.

By the bye, I made this comment to you back on the the 30th, on a different thread:
“I’ll help you out. The 14,700 apparently comes from someone at the Chinese Academy of Science and has passed into “everyone knows” lore.”

128 posted on 11/04/2011 12:22:57 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

Someone will buy one and take it apart to see what makes it work and then ActIII of the this comic opera will close.

***I agree.

Maybe some naysayers can get a pool of money together and buy one, just to prove it’s a fraud. Another way for them to put their money where their mouth is.


129 posted on 11/04/2011 12:25:04 AM PDT by Kevmo (Judicaret spectator se ipso: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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To: Kevmo
Far better to let a customer actually use the thing since part of the pitch was not just that it produced heat but that it could do so over a long enough period of time to be useful.

And it has to show some advantage over other heating methods, so the sale isn't the end of the story. But undoubtedly someone will dismantle one.

130 posted on 11/04/2011 12:35:58 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

And it has to show some advantage over other heating methods,
***so, let’s say you’re NATO and you need some heat in Antarctica. One of these burns up some Hydrogen and a few pounds of Nickel, rather than several thousand gallons of heating fuel. Those are distinct advantages.


131 posted on 11/04/2011 12:51:51 AM PDT by Kevmo (Judicaret spectator se ipso: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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To: Kevmo
Let's use your scenario.
Someone is going to haul a shipping container sized heat generator to the Antarctic, a device of unproven reliability and unknown technology along with an electrical generator to power it up. If it fails no one can fix it because no one knows how it works and it has a self destruct mechanism.

Heating oil or diesel is already on hand for tractors and generators for electricity so who needs another piece of equipment that will require both anyway?

Say ten years down the road the thing is refined a bit and actually works, in a polar climate diesel and electrical generators will still have to be used and available if only to start the purported fusion heater up.

132 posted on 11/04/2011 1:21:00 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
If Rossi’s only desire was to sell his machines...well then, he's accomplished that, at least once

Who did he sell it to?

133 posted on 11/04/2011 9:13:58 AM PDT by NewinTexsas
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To: NewinTexsas

Keebler Elves. They’re going to use it to half-bake cookies.


134 posted on 11/04/2011 9:38:51 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change


How Much is One (1) Megawatt


http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:How_Much_is_One_%281%29_Megawatt

1 MW E-Cat system.
Photo by Mats Lewan of NyTeknik.
By Hank Mills and Sterling D. Allan
Pure Energy Systems News
October 27, 2011

On October 28, 2011, Andrea Rossi will allow a customer to test the world's first one megawatt cold fusion E-Cat plant. The test will take place in Bologna, Italy, and will be reported on by Stirling Allan of PESN, who will be present at the test. This plant is composed of fifty two individual modules (each the size of a large briefcase), each containing three individual reactor cores. The combined output of all the modules will reach one megawatt. The entire system fits inside of a standard shipping container .

This is a lot of power. One megawatt is big. It might not be as big as a gigawatt or a terawatt, but one megawatt is nothing to dismiss. When it comes from a system that utilizes tiny amounts of nickel and hydrogen as fuel, emits no pollution, and produces no nuclear waste, it becomes a very significant number .

The following is a list of different examples of how one megawatt (or similar amounts of power) can be represented, and how generating one megawatt of power from a cold fusion E-Cat, offers huge advantages over other methods. Contents
[hide]
1 600 - 1000 Homes Electricity
2 Home Heat
3 Solar Photovoltaic
4 Wind Turbines
5 Steam Explosion
6 Biomass Heat
7 Heat Pump
8 Locomotive
9 Engine
10 Biogas Engine
11 Fuel Cell
12 Fission
13 Geothermal
14 See also • 600 - 1000 Homes Electricity
The average home in the US uses between 1 and 1.5 kW of electricity on average, so not taking highs and lows into consideration, 1 MW would power between 750 and 1000 homes. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_homes_can_a_megawatt_power
Home Heat
In terms of heat (as defined by "power" in your college physics text) at 100,000 BTU/hr gas furnace output for a house, this is enough heat for about 30 - 35 homes in Utah on the coldest of nights (-20 F) .

Solar Photovoltaic

The 1 MW photovoltaic solar installation by Gap Inc's Western Distribution Center in Fresno, CA takes up five acres, cost $7 million, and took 6 months to build. [1]
A one megawatt cold fusion E-Cat plant would cost a fraction of the cost of the above solar installation, take up less space (one standard shipping container instead of acres of land), produce power 24 hours a day (instead of only during the daytime), and could be constructed in a much shorter period of time .

In fact, a one megawatt E-Cat plant could be transported via the highway system, and placed onto the site it would be used. The setup would be minimal, and it would be up and running in hours or days (instead of months) .


Wind Turbines

1 MW
Most manufacturers of utility-scale turbines offer machines in the 700-kW to 2.5-MW range. Machines of larger size (up to 5 MW) are used in off-shore applications. [2]
To the right is a photo of a wind turbine rated for an output of 1 MW (at optimal wind speed). [3]
The E-Cat technology does not require wind for it to operate. It will operate under any weather conditions. In addition, it is small and easily concealable. It is very difficult to hide a windmill!
An E-Cat plant is simply quicker to build, quicker to install, takes up less space, is cheaper, and is less of an eye sore than a wind farm. In addition, windmills can make noise that is difficult to mask. The form factor of an E-Cat plant makes it easy to sound insulate – despite the fact it is quiet in operation. You can't put a sound insulating box around a windmill!


Steam Explosion

Here is the explosion of a steam in line in New York City, in 2007. This line feeds 20 buildings, which is roughly 1 MW .


Biomass Heat

Here's a 1 MW biomass heat power plant. http://www.nrg-consultants.com/biomass/biomassheatpower5003000kw/1mwheatingplant/index.html "This heating plant was built at a furniture factory in 2001. The heating capacity is 1.0 MW at a maximum flow temperature of 11 0 °C. The plant is operated throughout the year to heat the company property."
Biomass plants require large amounts of fuel, emit pollution, and are yesterday's technology. The E-Cat technology is a game-changing, revolutionary technology that requires only tiny amounts of fuel. For example, a kilogram of nickel could fuel a one megawatt plant for a minimum of six months, or even years. A biomass plant requires it to be continually fed with large amounts – truck loads – of fuel, in this case wood chips. The fuel savings with the E-Cat is simply mind blowing, because perhaps less than a hundred dollars worth of nickel and hydrogen, can replace tens of thousands of dollars worth of bio-mass fuel .

The one megawatt bio-mass plant is a huge facility, that towers into the sky. A one megawatt E-Cat plant fits into a small, standard sized container that can be shipped by airplane, cargo ship, or truck. For the same output, the E-Cat power plant is smaller, more fuel efficient, quieter, emits less pollution (no pollution), and makes much more sense .


Heat Pump

Here's a 1 MW heat pump http://www.hastieconsulting.co.nz/Project.aspx?ProjectId=826 "Hastie Consulting in conjunction with Cowley Refrigeration Engineering have recently designed, built and commissioned a 1MW (Cooling) heat pump for a major new commercial building in the Wellington CBD .

The heat pump has been designed to operate as a standard chiller or a heat pump. The heat source for the heat pump mode is the rejected heat from the chilled water circuit, outdoor air or a combination of both. Chilled water from the heat pump is supplied at 5.5 degrees C and heating water at 45 degrees C."
The output from an E-Cat can be used to power a heat pump for cooling purposes. It would produce cooling at a fraction of the cost of any other system, because the heat generated would come from cheap nickel-hydrogen cold fusion reactions .


Locomotive

1 MW is in the range of output of an older locomotive, such as the U18B GE Locomotive shown here, built in 1973-76, which puts out 1.3 MW of power. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Westinghouse_locomotives http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GE_locomotives
In the not too distant future, E-Cat systems could supply the steam for locomotives, or produce the electricity to power their electric motors. It would do so for a tiny fraction of the fuel cost. A train might use thousands of gallons or diesel for a trip across the United States, but a cold fusion E-Cat might only use a few grams of nickel, and a few grams of hydrogen. The cost for the diesel could run in the thousands of dollars, but the nickel and hydrogen could only cost a few dollars .


Engine
Here's a video of a 1.8 MW engine starting up:
Technical specification of 1MW diesel generator power plant set from China - consumes 145 grams of fuel/hour per metric horsepower .

These big engines require huge amounts of expensive fossil fuels. Cold fusion E-Cat reactors only require tiny amounts of fuel, in the form of nickel powder and hydrogen gas. The above mentioned diesel generator consumes more fuel by weight in a single hour, than a one megawatt cold fusion E-Cat would consume in a year .

Biogas Engine

GE launches 1 MW gas engine for smaller biogas projects - "GE has introduced its Waukesha APG1000 gas engine that can use a broader variety of biogases, including from landfills, wastewater treatment plants and agricultural "
Once again, the differences are obvious. Biogas engines consume huge amounts of fuel that when burnt release pollution. E-Cat generators do not release pollution. The amount of biogas needed to power the one megawatt engine for a year would fill several giant trucks. All the nickel and hydrogen needed to power a one megawatt engine could probably be put in a briefcase .


Fuel Cell

Here's a photo of a 1 MW Fuel Cell power plant by Nedstack, installed in July of 2011: [4] "This PEM Power Plant, with a 1 MW capacity delivered by 12,600 fuel cell stacks, is the largest of this type in the world. The PEM Power Plant converts hydrogen, a by-product in the chlorine industry, into electricity and heat."
Conventional electrolysis is very inefficient, and hydrogen produced by such systems – or as the byproduct of the chlorine industry – is expensive when you consider how much input was used to produce the hydrogen. With nickel-hydrogen cold fusion, a tiny amount of hydrogen and nickel powder can undergo safe nuclear reactions, releasing millions of times more energy than “burning” hydrogen in chemical reactions .


Fission
"The fission of 1 g of uranium or plutonium per day liberates about 1 MW." [5]
Fission can produce huge amounts of power, but there are major drawbacks. The fuel can be expensive, and massive safeguards must be taken when shipping or storing the fuel. Worst of all, the fuel is radioactive, and hazardous to humans and animals .

To use the fission material as fuel, giant and expensive nuclear reactors are built. They cost billions of dollars to build, are expensive to operate, and are inherently dangerous. If the supply of cooling power is cut off, the plant can go into meltdown – the situation in which the fuel melts though the casing of the reactor core .

Geothermal
"To generate 1 MW of geothermal electricity needed funds of about U.S. $ 2.5 million to U.S. $ 3 million. An average well can generate 4.8 megawatts." [6]
Geothermal technology does not require “fuel”, because the heat comes from the Earth. However, it has many disadvantages when compared to the potential of cold fusion E-Cat technology .

Geothermal power plants can only be built at certain locations where geothermal heat is easy to access. E-Cat plants can be used anywhere.
You cannot transport a geothermal plant. An E-Cat plant could be transported anywhere.
Geothermal power could not be used as an on demand power source for vehicles. In the not too distant future, cold fusion vehicles could be produced in which the heat is converted into electricity by photo-thermalvoltaic panels .


In every way, nickel-hydrogen cold fusion technology holds the advantage over conventional sources of power. The one megawatt of power from the one megawatt E-Cat plant is a big deal. It represents the first practical cold fusion power plant, and offers an output that is industrially significant. It has accomplished this without... .

Emitting any radioactivity.
Using any radioactive substances.
 Using any expensive fuels.
Using large quantities of any fuel.
 Releasing any pollution.
Producing large amounts of noise.
Being overly large or an eye sore.
Depending on the weather.
Being limited to certain geologic regions of the planet.
Being capable of only being used in the daytime.
Having huge start-up costs.
Taking extended periods of time to setup.
Having any risk of “melt down” or creating a disaster.





135 posted on 11/05/2011 2:25:48 AM PDT by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Kevmo
The one Mwt. plant did not produce 1 megawatt.
The output claimed was less than the generators attached to it. These gemerators required fuel to run (diesel, natural gas?)
At present the demo was really worse than nothing. Maybe someone will buy a plant and do the proper tests since it seems Rossi and Co. are either incapable or unwilling to do so for whatever reasons.
136 posted on 11/05/2011 3:02:44 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew

“Quite the contrary: high school kids have built working cold fusion reactors on their tabletops”

Link?


137 posted on 11/05/2011 5:26:29 PM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew

Seriously, a Wired story? That’s your source of verified cold fusion high school experiments? So much for you knowing what a fact is.


138 posted on 11/05/2011 5:27:46 PM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew

“No one thinks that cold fusion violates the laws of physics.”

Really, no one? You don’t know any scientists then.


139 posted on 11/05/2011 5:31:56 PM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: Moonman62

” He’ll say those who did due diligence shouldn’t have given me money.”

Exactly. All scam artists count on the sucker to not fight for their money back, knowing the money is gone and teh scammer usually has a good enough defense to escape total liability. Rossi is an accomplished scam artist.


140 posted on 11/05/2011 5:33:15 PM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: Wonder Warthog

” PhD Analytical Chemist”

OK, then why don’t you give us the equation by which his device works since you claim to understand the report? Go ahead, we’ll wait. Describe it the best you can. No hurry. So far, Rossi hasn’t, not even in his patent application.


141 posted on 11/05/2011 5:37:41 PM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: CodeToad
"OK, then why don’t you give us the equation by which his device works since you claim to understand the report? Go ahead, we’ll wait. Describe it the best you can. No hurry. So far, Rossi hasn’t, not even in his patent application."

Get a clue, troll. I've never said I understand the "theory" by which his device works. But I "do" understand, in depth, the analytical measurements made and their strengths and weaknesses. Most of the critiques of their "failings" are simply and flatly wrong. The early demonstrations were completely sufficient to prove that the device works (unless, of course, he exactly faked the data for all of the measurement methods.....highly unlikely).

142 posted on 11/05/2011 6:35:28 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: isaiah55version11_0

I remember watching ABC News lead story on Pons and Fleichman back in ‘86 or so. I’ll have to see my power bill shrink before I’ll believe it.


143 posted on 11/05/2011 6:45:22 PM PDT by Rebelbase (Yes we Cain!)
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To: Wonder Warthog
"The early demonstrations were completely sufficient to prove that the device works (unless, of course, he exactly faked the data for all of the measurement methods.....highly LIKELY). "

There. Fixed it for you. You didn't measure squat and neither has anyone with any level of reasonable scientific instruments. I, too, have years of instrumentation experience and Rossi's scam is highly uninstrumented, as a scam would be.

So, your touted a PhD in Chemistry, yet, you cannot possibly write an equation that explains Rossi's stated elemental composition, much less any cold fusion nuclear reaction. In other words, you don't know and he hasn't said, yet, you state you totally believe in his work as having been proven. So much for any science background you claim. Scientists don't go on "I promise it works. Really, honest!"

144 posted on 11/05/2011 7:10:32 PM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: count-your-change

Basically, the customer signed off on the test and put his money down and drove off with the device. The crappy demo was enough to sway this first customer. There are two more lined up, probably several more in the wings.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2800077/posts

Unfortunately, if Rossi hired a bunch of actors to pretend to be the customer reps, created an elaborate year-long special-effects-derived series of demos, bribed, hypnotised or otherwise fooled Focardi, Levi, Kullander, Essen, Bianchini, Stremmenos and convinced a bunch of Greek crooks to set up a dummy company called Defkalion to pretend to fight with him over the non-existent eCat, to perpetuate the illusion and spin it off into a competing mirror-scam and convinced his former partners to set up another company called Ampenergo to pretend that they had a contract for The Americas for a substantial sum or that they just did this with no proof because they have worked with Rossi and trust him because he’s such a fine fellow, arranged for Piantelli, Miley and a host of others to try to fool the world into thinking that cold fusion was real, got NASA, SPAWAR, The Defense Threat Reduction Agency and The Defense Intelligence Agency to say nice things about the field, got Bushnell to make a fool of himself, sold his profitable company to his ex-partners in order to spend that wealth on a multi-million dollar scam; certain that once he got all the above ducks in a row he would pretend to sell the first device and then reel in the true target of his dastardly plan – the second (this time genuine) buyer of a 1MW plant that will net him $2 million dollars until they want their money back or sucker a $100 million dollar deal under the table because he has experience in pulling the wool over all these idiotic eyes and knows that they will just take his word for it and not want to test if his 1MW plant can heat a small village without truckloads of coal or oil or a big fat electric cable coming into the container from beneath the floor (no you can’t lift the carpet!) and that, in order to pull this off, Rossi had to risk discovery by interviewing all the people he subsequently fooled so that he could only invite the gullible Professors and not the brilliant anonymous posters on the Internet who surely would have found him out – then all bets are off and I’m with the guys who think that Rossi is an idiot and they are all geniuses .


145 posted on 11/05/2011 11:18:34 PM PDT by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Kevmo

If Rossi is planning to scam millions, he could easily corrupt that number of people (plus some of the cold fusion guys were kooks long before Rossi came along), and set up a series of “crappy” demos.


146 posted on 11/06/2011 12:13:54 AM PDT by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: Kevmo
A good name for this opera would be “The Great Either/Or” since framing a question as either one extreme or the other is a common and dishonest propaganda device.

And since everything news worthy that could be said about the Rossi invention could be summarized in a few paragraphs the story itself has become the news.

The news is that all one has to do is take the bits and scraps of cloth dropped by Rossi and Co. and sew them into some sort of garment so the Emperor won't be embarrassed much. But that's a lot of sewing and stitching.

So the title of this thread suggests either enough covering material has been provided for flowing robes and capes or, or just enough to make something that looks like a Speedo on a fat man.

Despite the breathless blogs and knowing novices the whole story is simply, contra the either/or statement, is that Rossi can claim a modest success for himself.
He built his machine and found a customer...he says. Good enough.
All the hand clapping and high fives about changing the world and weaning Western civilization off petroleum is nonsense and wishful thinking if it may be called thinking at all.

Hopefully some independent third party will test and dismantle one of these e-cats and provide an honest evaluation of its worth, without feeling the need to proclaim it the salvation of the world or a criminal enterprise.

That would be a fitting close to Act III of this comic opera.

147 posted on 11/06/2011 1:50:54 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: CodeToad
"I, too, have years of instrumentation experience and Rossi's scam is highly uninstrumented, as a scam would be."

All right, since you're also an expert in instrumentation, what measurements were missing???

148 posted on 11/06/2011 2:58:11 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Wonder Warthog

What instruments were present...that you can prove existed and were in fact measuring? None. Thought so.


149 posted on 11/06/2011 2:25:14 PM PST by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: Moonman62

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/2800058/posts?page=55#55
To: Moonman62
It appears that a relatively innocuous post responding to you was pulled.
This means I have nothing more to say to you about LENR. Bye.

55 posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:41:07 PM by Kevmo (Caveat lurkor pro se ipso judicatis: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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150 posted on 11/06/2011 2:48:36 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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