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Report On A Conversation With George Miley
ECat Site ^ | November 8, 2011 | Ecatsite

Posted on 11/08/2011 10:53:54 PM PST by Kevmo





Report On A Conversation With George Miley
Posted on November 8, 2011 by ecatsite
_____________________________________________
This was posted on Vortex by Jed Rothwell and with his permission is posted below .

_____________________________________________
I spoke with George Miley of the University of Illinois about his most recent tests with palladium zirconium alloys with gas loading. Here are some notes from the conversation and some related information about some of (Dr. Tadahiko) Mizuno’s experiments .

A set of PowerPoint slides here shows his results up until recently. Download the slides here .

See the slides starting at # 46 .


This does not show the most recent results, which are more dramatic .

Slide 48 shows the overall pattern of the reaction .

Note that for ordinary chemical reactions, loading is exothermic and deloading is endothermic. That is not what you see here. In some cases the initial chemical exothermic reaction is followed by a second reaction raising the temperature still higher. This is the anomalous cold fusion reaction. These slides do not show it lasting for long. This is similar to (Dr. Akira) Kitamura’s results .

The slides show early runs. Recently they made a batch of material that works dramatically better. However, they only made one batch so far and they have run samples from it four times. They will need to make more batches to confirm that they can reproduce this improved performance. Miley is “optimistic but cautious” that the next batch will work as well as this one did .

In the four runs they have achieved fairly stable output ranging from ~75 to ~200 W. The runs last around six hours. As shown in slide 48, the sample first self-heats from the chemical reaction. Because the sample is well insulated this heat is enough to trigger the anomalous reaction — when the anomalous reaction occurs. You do not usually need external heating although the cell is equipped with a heater (slide 47) .

The samples are ZrO2 with 35% Pd loaded with deuterium at 60 psi. They range from 15 to 30 g. The starting material is of high purity and comes from Ames National Laboratory. Additional processing is done at the University of Illinois. Miley thinks that recent success is due to their increased attention to material purity and improved manufacturing methods, and a better vacuum pump. Quote slide 49:
“Most effort has been to develop improved nanoparticles by comparing and down selecting a series of triple alloys.”
They are also making ZrO2Ni, to be loaded with hydrogen. I do not think they have done this yet. We did not talk about that much .

Although deloading is chemically endothermic, in some cases they have seen the heat increased during the loading. This is presumably anomalous heat. Rossi showed a similar effect during the October 6 demonstration. Miles says this is probably caused by flux, that is, deuterons moving through the lattice. It does not matter which direction they are moving. McKubre listed flux as one of the key factors in his “ad hoc” equation .

Calorimetry .

A schematic of the calorimeter is shown in slide number 47. This is a gas calorimeter, similar to the one Mizuno used in his studies with proton conductors. I have a lot of data from that and I am pretty familiar with the characteristics so I will discuss it below .

The temperature is measured at the sample I believe, or anyway, in the sample chamber. When there is heat (chemical or anomalous) you see a temperature difference between the sample chamber and the outer chamber. In Miley’s case, the temperature difference ranges from 100°C to 200°C. Miley described this calorimeter as very complicated and nonlinear. It is difficult to model. The problem is that the ratio of output power to the temperature at the core of the sample chamber will vary depending upon the type of gas you fill the sample chamber with, and the gas pressure .

Based on Mizuno’s data, I agree this is very complicated but on the other hand it is also probably reliable, stable and repeatable. Mizuno tested hydrogen, deuterium, helium, air, and a vacuum. He tested the gases over a range of pressures. He found that when you use the same kind of gas at the same pressure, a given power level always produces the same temperature difference between the inside and the outside. So, when anomalous power produces a certain temperature you can find that point on the output curve and you can say with confidence that it is producing that much power .

Because of this complexity, Miley et al. do not know with accuracy how much power the sample is producing. On the other hand they can be sure it is producing heat because the sample chamber is much hotter than the outer chamber. We know the energy is anomalous, because it produces a much larger temperature difference than the chemical effect, and it lasts much longer: 21600 s compared to 150 s. The anomalous power continues when the heating coil is turned off, so there is no possibility that they are mistaking conventional electric heating with anomalous heating .

In other words, they can be sure there is anomalous heat but they cannot say with assurance what the magnitude of it is. I think they would have to do more calibration with a joule heater to establish exactly what the power level is. The heating coil around the outside of the sample chamber would not be suitable for this. You need to put heater right where the sample is located, in the center of the sample chamber. This is what Mizuno did .

Ambient air is outside the outer chamber. Changes in this air temperature will not have much effect on the calorimetry because the inner temperature differences are so much higher than ambient fluctuations. Mizuno’s data shows no measurable effect from ambient changes even though he was in a poorly heated laboratory in Hokkaido, with large gaps in the walls and windows .

They are using one calorimeter. They are doing the experiments every few weeks. They would like to expand the effort to have someone work full-time on it. Ahey would like to have 4 calorimeters instead of 1, so they can test more samples in parallel. I suggested they use at least one Seebeck calorimeter. This would sweep aside all of the complexities of gas calorimetry, since it measures the heat outside the walls of the gas cell. The cell should fit into a Seebeck calorimeter because it is about 2 inches long .

Miley outlined a development path for this in slide number 52 .

I hope to find someone who can provide funding for this research. It has some major advantages over Rossi’s research:
The power density and temperatures are roughly comparable with Rossi .

Tests with nickel might produce the same light water effect that Rossi has observed .

This is a state university so the results would be made public .

Miley and her students are conventional academic scientists, not businessmen. They have no imperative to keep their results secret. On the contrary they would publish as quickly as they can to establish priority .

Miley’s researchers are young. See slide 46. This kind of research should be done by young people. Frankly, I would rather have one young person than 5 elderly scientists .

The material supplied by Ames Laboratory can be documented in great detail, and probably reproduced. The additional processing performed by Miley et al. can also be documented in detail .

Unlike Rossi, Miley et al. are willing to reveal all details of their work and to share materials with other qualified researchers, so this material can be independently tested by other laboratories .

This is not to criticize Rossi for being secretive. The imperatives of research at a public university are different from those in a private corporation .

Rossi does have one large advantage over Miley et al. He is working on a gigantic scale. This impresses many people. It does not impress me…I find a test at 100 W as convincing as a test at 1 MW. As long as the temperatures and power density are comparable, and the reaction is stable, I don’t see any advantage to scaling up above 100 W. It just makes the calorimetry more complicated, and it makes the experiment dangerous. However, members of the public and mass media reporters will probably be more impressed by the larger scale of Rossi’s tests. I suppose that from a public relations point of view it would be a good idea to scale up. If Miley et al. had funding perhaps they could make a cell that generates kilowatt level heat. I regard this as more of a public relations stunt than a scientifically useful thing to do, but sometimes a stunt is called for .

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TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News; News/Current Events; Technical
KEYWORDS: cmns; coldfusion; ecat; lenr
http://wp.me/p1SDhJ-pG

http://e-catsite.com/2011/11/08/report-on-a-conversation-with-george-miley/

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg54515.html

The Cold Fusion Ping List

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Unfortunately, if Rossi hired a bunch of actors to pretend to be the customer reps, created an elaborate year-long special-effects-derived series of demos, bribed, hypnotised or otherwise fooled Focardi, Levi, Kullander, Essen, Bianchini, Stremmenos.

Did he convince a bunch of Greek crooks to set up a dummy company called Defkalion to pretend to fight with him over the non-existent eCat, to perpetuate the illusion and spin it off into a competing mirror-scam?

Has he convinced his former partners to set up another company called Ampenergo to pretend that they had a contract for The Americas for a substantial sum or that they just did this with no proof because they have worked with Rossi and trust him because he’s such a fine fellow?

Who arranged for Piantelli, Miley and a host of others to try to fool the world into thinking that cold fusion was real, got NASA, SPAWAR, The Defense Threat Reduction Agency and The Defense Intelligence Agency to say nice things about the field, got Bushnell to make a fool of himself, sold his profitable company to his ex-partners in order to spend that wealth on a multi-million dollar scam.

Was he certain that once he got all the above ducks in a row he would pretend to sell the first device and then reel in the true target of his dastardly plan – the second (this time genuine) buyer of a 1MW plant that will net him $2 million dollars until they want their money back or sucker a $100 million dollar deal under the table? He has experience in pulling the wool over all these idiotic eyes and knows that they will just take his word for it and not want to test if his 1MW plant can heat a small village without truckloads of coal or oil or a big fat electric cable coming into the container from beneath the floor (no you can’t lift the carpet!)

In order to pull this off, Rossi had to risk discovery by interviewing all the people he subsequently fooled so that he could only invite the gullible Professors and not the brilliant anonymous posters on the Internet who surely would have found him out – then all bets are off.

I’m with the guys who think that Rossi is an idiot and they are all geniuses .

1 posted on 11/08/2011 10:54:00 PM PST by Kevmo
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To: dangerdoc; citizen; Lancey Howard; Liberty1970; Red Badger; Wonder Warthog; PA Engineer; ...

http://wp.me/p1SDhJ-pG
http://e-catsite.com/2011/11/08/report-on-a-conversation-with-george-miley/

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex- href=”mailto:l@eskimo.com”>l@eskimo.com/msg54515.html

The Cold Fusion Ping List

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2 posted on 11/08/2011 10:54:38 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: All; y'all; et al
I often enjoy Jed Rothwell's comments on Vortex-L. So I think I'll post a few here. Re: [Vo]:Minor progress Jed Rothwell Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:49:32 -0800 Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: Some more inside shots > > http://www.nyteknik.se/**incoming/article3295952.ece/** > BINARY/w468/kall_fusion_rossi_**sprattad_lada_1_468_320.jpg That's a good photo. Boy, what a mess! It looks like an old automobile radiator. It must have been run for a hundred hours. People say that when you are there in the room, looking into it, you can see there is nothing much below the cell or above it except the cooling fins. You can see approximately how big the cell-sandwich inside it is. Anyway, as I said, you can tell there is nothing big hidden below it by displacement. Eureka! -- as the bald guy said, bounding out of the bath buck naked. One person looking at it seemed disappointed, and said, "what, is that all there is to it?" It is an unprepossessing object. Mary Yugo finds it hard to believe that Rossi and Fioravanti would treat this test and this reactor with such a casual attitude. Almost with disdain. They express no gravitas. They sign off on a report that mainly cites continued leaks with gaskets. This is just another work-a-day event for them, not an historic occasion. I told her that is typical of people doing research. The thing is, this *was* just another in a series of tests. Rossi has been doing this for years. You can see from the rust that he has been testing this module for months. Ed Storms says that seeing a cold fusion reaction is about as interesting as watching paint dry. Experienced cold fusion researchers do not get excited when they see cold fusion. It is no big deal to them. The other thing about many of these researchers is their safety standards are nonexistent. People such as Ohmori thought nothing of having an open, cracked quartz glass test tube full of boiling lithium heavy water, spewing drops around. That's highly toxic. Mizuno would stand at door to Ohmori's lab, which was hidden in an abandoned building, filled with ancient instruments and equipment from a junked high energy physics experiment -- a classic bootleg experiment that the university wanted to deep-six -- and Mizuno would say to me: "You go in if you like. That place scares the hell out of me." This, from a guy who scavenged old stainless steel vessels and ran them at higher pressure and temperatures than the manufacturer ever intended. Believe me, I had good reasons for worrying that Rossi might blow himself up. I know these people! - Jed
3 posted on 11/09/2011 12:05:53 AM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: All; y'all; et al
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat / philosophical remarks Jed Rothwell Tue, 08 Nov 2011 11:55:18 -0800 Horace Heffner wrote: > The question though should be which premise is more consistent with > Rossi's behavior, he believes his own claims, or not?" > The premise that best fits his behavior is the same one that fits Harrison, Patterson, William Shockley, and many other people with a personality similar to Rossi's. They are intensely possessive. They want to micromanage every aspect of the technology. They consider it their baby, and they cannot bring themselves to allow others to develop it. they think they know best and they refuse to listen to anyone else's ideas or advice. This kind of behavior is widespread. You can find countless examples in biographies or the history of technology, or science, or for that matter commerce or war. This is how generals lose campaigns even when they have a large advantage going in. I have seen many programmers like this as well. Most of them work for corporations and they are not allowed to act on their desires. If Shockley had had his way, the transistor might never have emerged from the laboratory. He failed at every subsequent venture because he thought he knew best and he insisted on micromanaging. See: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtransistor.pdf Rossi also wants to micromanage people, including me. - Jed
4 posted on 11/09/2011 12:08:15 AM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: All; y'all; et al
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat / philosophical remarks Jed Rothwell Tue, 08 Nov 2011 11:10:38 -0800 Horace Heffner wrote: > Rossi's behavior is absurd, unless he doesn't believe in the technology > himself. Then it makes complete sense. > His behavior is irrational and absurd. However, such behavior is common among inventors and discoverers, and it has been throughout history. There are many famous examples such as John Harrison. There are many in the present day and among cold fusion researchers, such as Patterson. I do not think it makes "complete sense" that Rossi does not believe in the technology himself. If he did not believe in it, he would gleefully promote it and he would put on more impressive demonstrations. Fake but impressive. He would gladly accept money from investors since the only point of doing this would be to fleece people. That is not what he is doing. He is, in fact, beating off investors with a stick. He is turning down money. I know several people who offered him large sums. He refused them all. He did not even answer some of them. This is not characteristic of a fraud who does not believe in his own work. It is characteristic of a lone inventor who does not want to give up control. Patterson was the same way. I know people who offered him funding, which he turned down. As I said, he was determined to have 100% market share. > If Rossi actually has something useful, and it is not patentable, then he > could still make a fortune producing energy and selling it directly to a > grid. He could relocate to Mexico and sell power to the west coast of the > USA through the existing grid. He could make billions. > I do not think the power companies would allow this. Also, by the time he set up and was able to do this, the secret of this technology would be out and he would be reverse engineered by every major industrial manufacturing company on earth. - Jed
5 posted on 11/09/2011 12:10:27 AM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Kevmo
"George Miley of the University of Illinois about his most recent tests with palladium zirconium alloys with gas loading."

"The power density and temperatures are roughly comparable with Rossi."

"They are also making ZrO2Ni, to be loaded with hydrogen. I do not think they have done this yet. We did not talk about that much .

Either of these "fuels" should allow higher temperatures than Rossi's rig can put out. Zirconium has a higher melting point (1854C) than Nickel (1453C). And the zirconium oxide ceramic drastically higher (2715C).

Of course, the absolute melting point probably is not the critical factor....that would be when the metal "defects" that allow/promote the reaction lose that capability. But I would guess that contiguous metal nanoparticles in the zirconium oxide matrix would keep that capability into higher temperatures.

It will be interesting to see how the seagulls try to paint Miley as a fraud.

6 posted on 11/09/2011 3:46:56 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Wonder Warthog
It will be interesting to see how the seagulls try to paint Miley as a fraud.
It will be interesting to see how the Rossi fanboys will try to use any story about credible LENR research as though it "proved" that Rossi isn't a con artist.
7 posted on 11/09/2011 4:30:56 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.
"It will be interesting to see how the Rossi fanboys will try to use any story about credible LENR research as though it "proved" that Rossi isn't a con artist."

I suggest you take a gander at Sergio Focardi's recent talk at TEDItaly. Pay particular attention to the slides of the various early prototypes. NO "con artist" would go to that degree of trouble, building that many different devices, over that long a period of time.

And yes, Miley's work DOES, to some extent, legitimize Rossi's work. If his work with Ni/H2 shows results comparable to his existing work with Zr/Pd/D2, then it WILL validate the science. Of course, Piantelli's work already does, even to yielding a similar degree of output power with his latest results, but apparently that isn't enough for the psychotic naysayers.

8 posted on 11/09/2011 4:58:37 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Wonder Warthog
NO "con artist" would go to that degree of trouble, building that many different devices, over that long a period of time.
Sure they would: Keely Motor Company

Keely kept his scam going for 14 years, sold stock to the public, build an entire factory with false ceilings and floors, performed regular "demonstrations" to keep his investors and fans hooked and convinced several respectable scientists that he had made revolutionary scientific discoveries.

9 posted on 11/09/2011 5:10:27 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.; Kevmo; Wonder Warthog
Take a look at the power-point slides, particularly slides 13, 18 & 19. Her group is getting elements and isotopes after the reaction that were not present before the reaction. Her group is getting excess heat.

This is independent verification that there is something to LENR, that actual nuclear-type reactions are happening in ways that conventional theory does not account for.

Kevmo, my interest level is increasing.

10 posted on 11/09/2011 5:56:43 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. Barbarism must always ultimately triumph.)
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To: PapaBear3625
Her group is getting elements and isotopes after the reaction that were not present before the reaction.
So it seems. In particular, slide 21 shows "39 Elements Show Significant Isotope Shifts from Natural Abundance". Note that this is nothing like the results of Rossi's sample. Rossi's sample showed only naturally-occuring elements in the exact same ratio as occurs naturally.

I would hardly consider this as any sort of validation of Rossi. Quite the opposite.

I hope something comes of this. I would love to see a clean, cheap source of power made available. But I don't expect to see it come from Rossi.

11 posted on 11/09/2011 6:44:00 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.
Rossi's sample showed only naturally-occuring elements in the exact same ratio as occurs naturally.
I meant to say, "Rossi's sample showed only naturally-occuring isotopes in the exact same ratio as occurs naturally."
12 posted on 11/09/2011 6:47:00 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Wonder Warthog
It will be interesting to see how the seagulls try to paint Miley as a fraud.

I think the term 'flat-earthers" fits them better. They know the earth is flat (cold fusion is not possible) so they lampoon with glee anyone who is willing to consider that the earth may be a sphere (cold fusion may be possible.)

13 posted on 11/09/2011 6:56:57 AM PST by citizen (Romney and Perry and Cain! Oh my! All are leagues better than Comrade Obama.)
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To: PapaBear3625

This is independent verification that there is something to LENR, that actual nuclear-type reactions are happening in ways that conventional theory does not account for.
***There has been independent verification of that for a long time, and plenty of evidence of transmutation.

http://www.lenr-canr.org/

Mizuno, T., “Nuclear Transmutation: The Reality of Cold Fusion” describes the experimental work of Prof. Mizuno. Read selected pages in our library


14 posted on 11/09/2011 8:44:59 AM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Kevmo; Wonder Warthog; PapaBear3625
So... this report shows that real LENR reactions produce a bunch (19, according to the slideshow) of radioactive isotopes. Just what we would expect from a fusion process.

I'll bet that some of those radioactive isotopes are very expensive to buy, and having them show up in the "ash" of the fusion reaction is compelling proof that it's genuine.

It's a shame that the ash from Rossi's E-Cat doesn't show any signs of radioactive isotopes. I guess he couldn't afford to buy any to "salt" his sample.

15 posted on 11/09/2011 10:33:52 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.

Like I keep saying, we’ll have a better idea of Rossi’s E-cat when large, respected customers come forward attesting to running E-cats for weeks with verified large net energy production. Or not.


16 posted on 11/09/2011 10:40:34 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.)
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To: Kevmo

Kevmo, your scenario spells out the level of paranoia suffered by the basement LENR debunk team. Not only has Dr. Miley demonstrated there is firm underlying research in the LENR field, he/she has a commercialization plan. Relying on the microspheres Patterson-type patent gives them IP protection to go forward with a gas-loaded cell.

And we have more confirmation from NASA’s Langley Research Center, going back to August 2009:

“Joseph Zawodny, a senior research scientist with NASA’s Langley Research Center, endorsed LENRs, writing that they “could replace coal, oil, [and] natural gas-fired power plant heat sources with minimal impact to the extant generation and distribution infrastructure. . . . LENRs could be drop-in replacements for conventional nuclear reactor heat sources in nuclear power plants. . . . LENR-powered desalination plants could produce fresh water while simultaneously producing power.”

Surely Langley is on Rossi’s payrole as well.


17 posted on 11/09/2011 1:36:35 PM PST by Awnest (Really...)
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To: Kevmo

Interesting comments. It would seem Rossi is simply playing his part well as the eccentric inventor who wants the protection of the market in lieu of international patents. His team is doing a fantastic job of building interest and leaking history of LENR research.

This is to say that Rossi is far more savvy than credited by Jed. What annoys some is his vision for a future that obviates wasteful old technology i.e. a decrepit grid with all its clugy mechanical requirements. This vision needs an opportunity to compete. In the long run, it will come to pass. Just as this technology frees mankind from fossil fuels - its implementation arrives from free thought. The value is not just in the technology, but the creative process that has brought it to bear.

BTW, it is not lost that Shockley is considered a bell curve racist - violating this forum’s prohibition against same.


18 posted on 11/09/2011 1:37:02 PM PST by Awnest (Really... FUN!)
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To: Awnest
“Joseph Zawodny, a senior research scientist with NASA’s Langley Research Center, endorsed LENRs, writing that they “could replace coal, oil, [and] natural gas-fired power plant heat sources with minimal impact to the extant generation and distribution infrastructure. . . .
HERE is a link to the article (or an article) which uses the quote you mentioned.

Notice that he says "could", not "will". This is him speculating on what could happen if someone builds a working LENR reactor. You are reading way too much into this if you think it means that this will happen.

He thinks he can build one, as soon as someone gives him $25 million to build a prototype.

I know that I can build one for $25 million. It may take me the rest of my life, but I promise that I will have a working unit by the time I die, or the investors can have whatever money is left.

19 posted on 11/09/2011 2:33:23 PM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.

I’ll do it for only $20MM! ‘Course, it’ll probably take every bit as long as it would you... :-)


20 posted on 11/09/2011 3:45:01 PM PST by dinodino
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To: Johnny B.
"Keely kept his scam going for 14 years, sold stock to the public, build an entire factory with false ceilings and floors, performed regular "demonstrations" to keep his investors and fans hooked and convinced several respectable scientists that he had made revolutionary scientific discoveries."

Sorry. Not the same thing. Keely had a very few devices. Rossi has produced many. There is no evidence of "evolution" of the devices for Keely......there is for Rossi.

21 posted on 11/09/2011 4:22:50 PM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Johnny B.
"So it seems. In particular, slide 21 shows "39 Elements Show Significant Isotope Shifts from Natural Abundance". Note that this is nothing like the results of Rossi's sample. Rossi's sample showed only naturally-occuring elements in the exact same ratio as occurs naturally."

Uh, you "did" grasp the point that those slides refer to the reaction of deuterium?? Of course the reaction products would be different.

22 posted on 11/09/2011 4:27:33 PM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Wonder Warthog
Uh, you "did" grasp the point that those slides refer to the reaction of deuterium?? Of course the reaction products would be different.
How convenient it is that Rossi's reaction produces no radioactive byproducts, and produces no changes to the natural ratio of the elements in the "ash". Especially when the report mentioned above produced 39 different byproducts.

The fact that you are so blindly accepting of anything Rossi says, even when it's something as unlikely as his device producing absolutely no byproducts that can be distinguished from unaltered natural metals is nothing short of amazing.

23 posted on 11/09/2011 4:50:47 PM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Wonder Warthog
Sorry. Not the same thing. Keely had a very few devices. Rossi has produced many. There is no evidence of "evolution" of the devices for Keely......there is for Rossi.
The article showed numerous devices Keely built. One very interesting common element is that both men refused to let anyone else see the working of their machines, and they did all the work themselves.

Both claimed that was to protect their "intellectual property". In Keely's case, it was obviously to hide his fraud. We will see about Rossi.

24 posted on 11/09/2011 4:59:50 PM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.

It’s a shame that the ash from Rossi’s E-Cat doesn’t show any signs of radioactive isotopes. I guess he couldn’t afford to buy any to “salt” his sample.
***Then he is lousy at scamming as well, right?


25 posted on 11/09/2011 5:02:03 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Kevmo
***Then he is lousy at scamming as well, right?
No, he's extraordinarily good at it. He's managed to get hundreds of articles throughout the world media, based on some half-assed dog & pony shows.

My understanding is that some of these radioactive isotopes are very expensive, so it's understandable that he wouldn't be able to afford that level of detail, even if he had thought of it.

Of course, he only has to be good enough to convince some gullible and greedy suckers to invest in his company. And there are plenty of those people around.

26 posted on 11/09/2011 5:08:43 PM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.
Don't forget that his customers have to be real stupid not to check behind the curtain.

Some interesting remarks on Vortex.

Re: [Vo]:E-Cat / philosophical remarks
Jed Rothwell
Tue, 08 Nov 2011 11:55:18 -0800
Horace Heffner wrote:


> The question though should be which premise is more consistent with
> Rossi's behavior, he believes his own claims, or not?"
>

The premise that best fits his behavior is the same one that fits Harrison,
Patterson, William Shockley, and many other people with a personality
similar to Rossi's. They are intensely possessive. They want to micromanage
every aspect of the technology. They consider it their baby, and they
cannot bring themselves to allow others to develop it. they think they know
best and they refuse to listen to anyone else's ideas or advice.

This kind of behavior is widespread. You can find countless examples in
biographies or the history of technology, or science, or for that matter
commerce or war. This is how generals lose campaigns even when they have a
large advantage going in. I have seen many programmers like this as well.
Most of them work for corporations and they are not allowed to act on their
desires.

If Shockley had had his way, the transistor might never have emerged from
the laboratory. He failed at every subsequent venture because he thought he
knew best and he insisted on micromanaging. See:

http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtransistor.pdf

Rossi also wants to micromanage people, including me.

- Jed



Re: [Vo]:E-Cat / philosophical remarks
Jed Rothwell Tue, 08 Nov 2011 11:10:38 -0800
Horace Heffner wrote:


> Rossi's behavior is absurd, unless he doesn't believe in the technology
> himself. Then it makes complete sense.
>

His behavior is irrational and absurd. However, such behavior is common
among inventors and discoverers, and it has been throughout history. There
are many famous examples such as John Harrison. There are many in the
present day and among cold fusion researchers, such as Patterson.

I do not think it makes "complete sense" that Rossi does not believe in the
technology himself. If he did not believe in it, he would gleefully promote
it and he would put on more impressive demonstrations. Fake but impressive.
He would gladly accept money from investors since the only point of doing
this would be to fleece people. That is not what he is doing. He is, in
fact, beating off investors with a stick. He is turning down money. I know
several people who offered him large sums. He refused them all. He did not
even answer some of them. This is not characteristic of a fraud who does
not believe in his own work. It is characteristic of a lone inventor who
does not want to give up control. Patterson was the same way. I know people
who offered him funding, which he turned down. As I said, he was determined
to have 100% market share.



> If Rossi actually has something useful, and it is not patentable, then he
> could still make a fortune producing energy and selling it directly to a
> grid. He could relocate to Mexico and sell power to the west coast of the
> USA through the existing grid. He could make billions.
>

I do not think the power companies would allow this. Also, by the time he
set up and was able to do this, the secret of this technology would be out
and he would be reverse engineered by every major industrial manufacturing
company on earth.

- Jed


27 posted on 11/09/2011 5:14:42 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Johnny B.

He thinks he can build one, as soon as someone gives him $25 million to build a prototype.

***Heck, I can do that. I’d buy 50 units from Rossi for $2M, pocket $23M and 48 units, show off 2 units and go into business modifying ECats for custom use.


28 posted on 11/09/2011 5:17:26 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Kevmo
Don't forget that his customers have to be real stupid not to check behind the curtain.
You mean stupid companies like Blockbuster? Like Intel?

HERE is a guy who got several million dollars from those companies for what he claimed was a "revolutionary new technology" to transmit high-quality video over ordinary telephone modems.

It turned out to be a box containing a VCR, a video cable hidden in a power strip and a half-mile of coax cable running under a river.

Sometimes even smart companies fall for scams, and when they do, they often just forget about it rather than admitting their stupidity to the public.

29 posted on 11/09/2011 5:21:00 PM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Kevmo
***Heck, I can do that. I’d buy 50 units from Rossi for $2M, pocket $23M and 48 units, show off 2 units and go into business modifying ECats for custom use.
LOL! That is the funniest thing I've read in days!
30 posted on 11/09/2011 5:22:42 PM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.

That guy got found out. If Rossi’s a scammer, he’ll get found out as well.


31 posted on 11/09/2011 5:41:07 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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32 posted on 11/09/2011 5:58:50 PM PST by TheOldLady (FReepmail me to get ON or OFF the ZOT LIGHTNING ping list)
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To: Johnny B.
"How convenient it is that Rossi's reaction produces no radioactive byproducts, and produces no changes to the natural ratio of the elements in the "ash". Especially when the report mentioned above produced 39 different byproducts.

I don't know that it does, and I don't know that it doesn't. The small amount of information that I have from the Swedes as to methodology doesn't give me enough to go on. I doubt that they had access to analytical devices as powerful as the SIM and Neutron Activation system that Miley used.

And perhaps they did, and the information lack is just due to bad reporting.

"The fact that you are so blindly accepting of anything Rossi says, even when it's something as unlikely as his device producing absolutely no byproducts that can be distinguished from unaltered natural metals is nothing short of amazing."

See above. Inadequate information. I "blindly accept" NOTHING. But if information is sparse, I reserve judgment until better data is available. I don't automatically jump to the conclusion that "it's a scam, it just HAS to be a scam, oh gee I "hope" it's a scam".

33 posted on 11/09/2011 7:28:16 PM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: PapaBear3625

Did Andrea Rossi Jump the Gun with His 1 MW E-Cat LENR?

http://alfin2300.blogspot.com/2011/11/did-andrea-rossi-jump-gun-with-his-1-mw.html

New information from fusion physicist George Miley (Vortex via EcatSite and Ecatnews.net) helps to clarify a few matters regarding recent developments in LENR research.

Professor Miley and his students are proceeding with their own line of research into LENRs, and are making what is described as dramatic improvement. Miley’s slides are available for download.
The slides show early runs. Recently they made a batch of material that
works dramatically better. However, they only made one batch so far and
they have run samples from it four times. They will need to make more
batches to confirm that they can reproduce this improved performance. Miley
is “optimistic but cautious” that the next batch will work as well as this
one did.

In the four runs they have achieved fairly stable output ranging from ~75
to ~200 W. The runs last around six hours. As shown in slide 48, the sample
first self-heats from the chemical reaction. Because the sample is well
insulated this heat is enough to trigger the anomalous reaction — when the
anomalous reaction occurs. You do not usually need external heating
although the cell is equipped with a heater (slide 47).

The samples are ZrO2 with 35% Pd loaded with deuterium at 60 psi. They
range from 15 to 30 g. The starting material is of high purity and comes
from Ames National Laboratory. Additional processing is done at the
University of Illinois. Miley thinks that recent success is due to their
increased attention to material purity and improved manufacturing methods,
and a better vacuum pump. Quote slide 49: “Most effort has been to develop
improved nanoparticles by comparing and down selecting a series of triple
alloys.”

They are also making ZrO2Ni, to be loaded with hydrogen. I do not think
they have done this yet. We did not talk about that much.

...Based on Mizuno’s data, I agree this is very complicated but on the other
hand it is also probably reliable, stable and repeatable. Mizuno tested
hydrogen, deuterium, helium, air, and a vacuum. He tested the gases over a
range of pressures. He found that when you use the same kind of gas at the
same pressure, a given power level always produces the same temperature
difference between the inside and the outside. So, when anomalous power
produces a certain temperature you can find that point on the output curve
and you can say with confidence that it is producing that much power.

Because of this complexity, Miley et al. do not know with accuracy how much
power the sample is producing. On the other hand they can be sure it is
producing heat because the sample chamber is much hotter than the outer
chamber. We know the energy is anomalous, because it produces a much larger
temperature difference than the chemical effect, and it lasts much longer:
21600 s compared to 150 s. The anomalous power continues when the heating
coil is turned off, so there is no possibility that they are mistaking
conventional electric heating with anomalous heating.

In other words, they can be sure there is anomalous heat but they cannot
say with assurance what the magnitude of it is. I think they would have to
do more calibration with a joule heater to establish exactly what the power
level is.

...Miley’s researchers are young. See slide 46. This kind of research should
be done by young people. Frankly, I would rather have one young person than
5 elderly scientists.

The material supplied by Ames Laboratory can be documented in great detail,
and probably reproduced. The additional processing performed by Miley et
al. can also be documented in detail.

Unlike Rossi, Miley et al. are willing to reveal all details of their work
and to share materials with other qualified researchers, so this material
can be independently tested by other laboratories _Vortex_via_EcatSite_and_Ecatnews.net
And so on. It is worth reading both the Vortex link above and the EcatSite link.

The impression one gets from all the information available so far, is that the science is still poorly defined, and the technology is still at an infantile stage.

It is not likely that Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat reactors are ready for commercialisation or mass production. But Rossi has performed an important role by bringing this science and technology to the attention of the public and the media. Now, scientific researchers such as George Miley and others should more easily obtain funding for their research into both the science underlying LENRs and the technology required to efficiently develop efficient and reliable reactors to useful scale.


34 posted on 11/09/2011 7:29:47 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Kevmo
But Rossi has performed an important role by bringing this science and technology to the attention of the public and the media.
So, Rossi isn't much of a scientist, but he's a great showman.

Finally, something we can all agree with!

35 posted on 11/10/2011 3:32:41 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Wonder Warthog
See above. Inadequate information. I "blindly accept" NOTHING. But if information is sparse, I reserve judgment until better data is available.
Nonsense. You've been jumping to the conclusion that Rossi has a "revolutionary" new technology based on much flimsier evidence. It's only the evidence that shows Rossi to be a fraud that you consistently reject.

When Rossi makes claims that he's run these devices for years, and that he heated his factory for six months on a single "fueling" without offering any evidence, but he then can't demonstrate a device working for more than a few hours, you blindly accept his word.

When Rossi is shown to have been convicted of fraud several times, for completely unrelated scams, you say that his fraud in one area has nothing to do with fraud in this area.

But when the outside, independent analysis of the "ash" from his device shows absolutely no signs of any nuclear or transmutational processes, then you decide that you need to be skeptical, that they didn't do "proper" testing and/or that they did find those results and just forgot to mention it.

We now have credible evidence that LENR reactions produce radioactive byproducts (as we would expect). Faking that would be very difficult and expensive.

Since the evidence is that Rossi's gadget doesn't produce any byproducts (either radioactive isotopes, or even non-radioactive isotopes in different ratios than occurs naturally), it's clear that his device isn't doing LENR. Since his claims are so far outside the possibility of honest error (i.e. heating his factory for six months with a single "fueling"), the obvious conclusion is fraud.

36 posted on 11/10/2011 4:02:07 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.
"You've been jumping to the conclusion that Rossi has a "revolutionary" new technology based on much flimsier evidence. It's only the evidence that shows Rossi to be a fraud that you consistently reject."

Garbage. Just what I would expect from a loon. I haven't "rejected" evidence that shows Rossi engaged in fraudulent activities, nor have I "jumped to a conclusion" on anything.

If you've got a link that shows the actual data from the Swedes' analysis, put it up here....because I have NOT found one. I'd LOVE to see the data.

Also note that Miley's slides say NOTHING about radioactivity.....they show ELEMENTAL ANALYSIS data for ELEMENTS.....not ISOTOPES. Be "very" careful not to conclude that "radioactivity" mentioned in the Miley work is from the CF process......note that Miley used both SIMS "and" NAA. "NAA" stands for "neutron activation analysis", and is a technique where the simple is PUT INTO A NUCLEAR REACTOR to generate RADIOACTIVE ISOTOPES. From the amount and type of those radioactive species, one can "back-calculate" to what elements (and to some extent what isotopes) were present in the original non-irradiated sample. I've done NAA and have a more than passing understanding of the process.

I don't see anywhere that Miley mentions that the original sample, when extracted from the CF reactor, was measurably radioactive. And detection of radiation is VERY VERY sensitive. Of course, I "could" have missed that in reading, just like YOU missed the fact that Rossi's "thermal generator" was tested by independent personnel, at an independent facilty.....and which data "you" consistently ignore or "explain away".

If anyone is "jumping to conclusions" here, it's you.

37 posted on 11/10/2011 5:37:30 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Wonder Warthog

“Sorry. Not the same thing. Keely had a very few devices. Rossi has produced many. There is no evidence of “evolution” of the devices for Keely......there is for Rossi.” - WW

It is precisely the same in regard to independent verification.
It is also the same regarding a non-scientist with fantastic scientific breakthroughs.

The claims are science breakthrough related, but the demonstrations are remarkably unscientific in practice.

These practices by Rossi leave plenty of room for valid skepticism. Combine all these scientific miss-steps with Rossi’s history of questionable/failed businesses, and you get, IMO, a likelihood of deception.


38 posted on 11/10/2011 1:00:59 PM PST by Triple (Socialism denies people the right to the fruits of their labor, and is as abhorrent as slavery)
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To: Johnny B.; Wonder Warthog

If all you are doing is flipping an UP Quark to a DOWN Quark you probably wouldn’t have any radioactive debris around to measure.


39 posted on 11/17/2011 3:02:41 PM PST by muawiyah
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