Posted on 11/11/2011 4:42:22 PM PST by Johnny B.
E-Cat Technology by Andrea Rossi of Leonardo Corporation
No one could make up a story like the one we see unfolding before us. I love it!
Rossi has said the “fuel” was doped with Ni-62 and Ni-64, neither difficult to obtainDo you have any sources for this? I have been unable to find any actual pricing information for enriched isotopes of Nickel and Copper, other than a single comment that enriched Nickel in the 10+ grams needed for an E-Cat device would cost hundreds-of-thousands of dollars.
Give me a few. I’ll check again.
Houses, no. Apartment buildings, hotels, office buildings, yes.
There are also district heating systems (Manhattan, NY has one) where steam is distributed through underground pipes from a central plant to individual buildings. If it can reliably deliver mild steam cheaply, it still would be damn useful.
According to Rossi, getting it to the point of reliably running hot enough to make steam at turbine temperatures is a couple of years away. It would make a lot of sense to sell it as a heater in the meanwhile.
Here is a supplier of nickel isotopes but like many companies they publish prices online:
ISOFLEX Stable Isotopes | isoflex.com
www.isoflex.com/isotopes
and if you google “e-cat reactor Ni-62, Ni-64” it will take you to “Next Big Future” page.
Not much but it’s a start. More in a few minutes.
About as accurate as everything else you've posted (which is to say....not at all). David Passerini also "broke" that news.Source?
What I've found is this: http://ecatnews.com/?p=1269 which has a link which just points back to Allan's blog post.
Having one unsubstantiated claim by Allan being reposted in other blogs does not make it substantiated.
I see that this blog also had a story about National Instruments buying an E-Cat from Rossi, which turned out to be false.
I’m not finding actual costs but since these are stable and not exceedingly rare isotopes the cost of a milligram or two might not be prohibitive. After all, how many samples of “spent fuel” have been provided?
While looking for an "original" source for all the quotes about the isotope analysis of Rossi's used "fuel", I came across this statement by Rossi that really caught my attention:
3- Ni 59 doesn’t exist. It is a typo. We buy regular Ni powder, then we make a treatment of it wich changes the isotopical composition. In that paper I referred to the powder as we buy it, not to the composition of the powder after the treatment we make. In any case, the composition of Ni, as we buy it, is well known: 58 (67,88%), 60 (26,23%), 61 (1,19%), 62 (3,66%), 64 (1,08%). After that, we change it.According to this, Rossi is buying "natural" Nickel, then "treating" it to produce different isotopes.
That strikes me as remarkable as his claims for the E-Cat. Is he really transmuting Nickel into different isotopes? How would he go about doing that? Does he have a nuclear fission reactor in his kitchen? Does anyone know of a reaction that takes "natural" Nickel and produces "unnatural" Nickel (differing isotope ratios) without also producing other, obvious byproducts of nuclear fission?
but since these are stable and not exceedingly rare isotopes the cost of a milligram or two might not be prohibitive.They may be stable and not exceedingly rare, but as far as I know, separating them out is an expensive proposition (but if anyone has any references to the contrary, I would love to see them).
This would be the same process that various countries around the world are spending huge amounts of money to try to develop, in order to enrich Uranium and Plutonium for use in nuclear bombs.
If Rossi has developed a method of doing this in his kitchen, it would be a bigger breakthrough than a box that produces a small amount of hot water with a bit of steam.
When the nickel "fuses" with the hydrogen, a new isotope (or element) is created.
When the nickel "fuses" with the hydrogen, a new isotope (or element) is created.I'm not talking about the operation of the E-Cat. I'm talking about Rossi's claim about preparing his "catalyst". Rossi is claiming that he is, somehow, enriching certain isotopes of Nickel before it is suitable to be used in the E-Cat.
Note that although he claims to have "enhanced" Nickel, the reports of the analysis of his "before" and "after" fuel samples showed no signs of unusual isotopes or elements. They only showed the natural isotope ratios of both Nickel and Copper, which is what we would expect if there were no nuclear processes occurring.
As far as I know, Rossi has not released the actual report, which is typical of him. It would go a long way toward proving or disproving Rossi's claims.
Another silly claim by Rossi.
There are several methods of enriching specific isotopes, but none of them are something you could do in your kitchen.
I can’t find a price online. Anyway, the truth is oozing out about this “world changing technology” so we’ll have to wait a bit for the next twist in the story.
Stay tuned folks, it gets better....really it does.
Thanks. Now I know more about isotopes than I ever really wanted to. Can’t we just go back to the e-cat and really, really try to believe?
My guess is that as soon as you pull the plug on the heating elements, the “heat generation” stops.
Wouldn’t it make more sense for Rossi, rather than selling some really expensive water heaters, to actually complete his tech with the goal of power generation, and then realize huge commercial potential? Oh, wait—he can’t do that, because THE WHOLE THING IS A HUGE SCAM.
Passerini's blog. Look it up.
22 passi.
"Having one unsubstantiated claim by Allan being reposted in other blogs does not make it substantiated."
Sorry. Your "assumption" is wrong. It wasn't a re-post, but an independent verification. And if you had spent less time on your "Randi" threads, and more actually learning the background of this whole story, you would know that Danielle Passerini is a personal friend of Guiseppe Levi, who often "breaks" primary information about the E-Cat.
And NOT on Rossi's payroll.
He didn't break the story before Allan, because Allan had been promised priority on the scoop, but he confirmed it VERY shortly afterwards.
I've a feeling that the power generation capacity is always going to be just a year or so off.
Of course it’s substantiated. There were a bunch of people there.
That leaves only 2 possibilities. Either Rossi is a scam artist or it’s the real deal.
I’ve a feeling
***Maybe you should base your opinions on facts and rational reasoning rather than feelings.
Oh, I suppose I could go looking through some of the links JohnnyB has provided, and copy examples of past con men who always promised that the big breakthrough was always just around the corner. But in this case, I think my instincts are good enough.
Then asking you to evaluate the scientific evidence appears to be too much. It’s so boring, emotionally.
Passerini's blog. Look it up.OK, I looked it up.
You once complained about some news stories about Rossi's criminal past, because they were poorly translated from the Italian by Google. The translation of this site is far worse than anything I posted. If there is an English language version, please post the link.
He may be claiming to have independently "confirmed" the N.I. story (it's impossible to make sense of the translation), but I notice he doesn't provide any evidence of that, and that he links back to Stirling Allan's blog post.
So, I still haven't seen anything other than Allan's blog post to verify this. In particular, I haven't seen any sign of an actual press release, which would have been released by N.I.
In the end, it's straining at gnats anyway. If Rossi is legitimate, he would be buying components to build his gadgets. If Rossi is a con artist, he would be creating the appearance of buying components to build his gadget.
Since I'm very much a logical person, I have found that the few times an emotional reaction seems to precede my logical analysis, there is always a logical reason for me to feel the way I do.
In this case, I have already read the accounts of other con men whose behaviors were nearly identical to Rossi's. So, I think the "feeling" is based on an assessment that since Rossi has demonstrated a behavior pattern, he will continue to act in a manner consistent with that pattern.
Let me guess--you would accept no evidence of Rossi's con man personality short of a psychiatric examination which, even if done, we would not see because of privacy laws.
Of course it’s substantiated. There were a bunch of people there.So, that means that when David Copperfield makes the Statue of Liberty disappear, it must really be happening because "there were a bunch of people there"?
Funny. I had not problem with the translation.
"He may be claiming to have independently "confirmed" the N.I. story (it's impossible to make sense of the translation), but I notice he doesn't provide any evidence of that, and that he links back to Stirling Allan's blog post."
It's obvious even from the "bad translation" that he was aware of the NI link well before it was revealed to the world. And of course he would link to Allan's entry, as that was the "officially blessed by Rossi" site to be credited with the info.
"So, I still haven't seen anything other than Allan's blog post to verify this. In particular, I haven't seen any sign of an actual press release, which would have been released by N.I."
I had no problem finding a statement from direct from NI clarifying that NI did not buy an E-Cat (as was rumored by some), but WAS contracting with Rossi to provide control equipment.
And no, I didn't save the link.
"In the end, it's straining at gnats anyway. If Rossi is legitimate, he would be buying components to build his gadgets. If Rossi is a con artist, he would be creating the appearance of buying components to build his gadget.
As I understand it, this control package will be quite extensive, both hardware and software. A contract and specification is an absolute necessity before buying. And your attempt at equivocation on the point simply betrays your psychotic skeptic point of view.
And no, I didn't save the link.Fortunately, I did: LINK
When I first read this story, I missed the statement: There are thousands of researchers and engineers in the world trying to solve alternative energy challenges and National Instruments provides tools to many of these scientists. One example is the Leonardo Corporation who intends to use NI tools for various applications. Specific details are still in development.
So, Rossi and N.I. are in talks about N.I. supplying tools, as they do for "thousands of researchers and engineers".
No signed contract, no signs of any special relationship. Just talking about doing a deal. That's nice, but it's hardly the "confirmation that Rossi is correct" that his fans have claimed.
This article is also independent confirmation that N.I. did not buy an E-Cat, so we still don't have any independent confirmation that Rossi has actually sold an E-Cat to anyone.
You sound like a non-believer. Quite a few of those after the first Kitty-hawk flight too.
There will be disbelievers until we have a LENR aircraft carrier. Sometimes it’s better to save your breath than worry about evidence for those who wish to remain skeptical.
You sound like a non-believer. Quite a few of those after the first Kitty-hawk flight too."Belief" has nothing to do with science. If you're a "believer" then you're engaging in religion.
Also, there were quite a few "non-believers" with every scam invention, and the "non-believers" were correct.
Notice that Rossi's partner, Sterling D. Allan, has believed, endorsed and supported just about all of the scam "energy" devices over the last couple of decades. HERE is a list of Allan's articles about a wide verity of scams and delusions.
The fact that he is now supporting Rossi is a compelling argument that Rossi's E-Cat is also a scam. It would be out of character for Allen to support something that actually worked.
There will be disbelievers until we have a LENR aircraft carrier.I would settle for a report from an identified company not associated with Rossi (legitimate company, university, or government organization) that they had independently tested a Rossi E-Cat and determined that it actually does produce more energy than it takes in.
We still don't have anything like that. Rossi could have easily allowed such a test at any time, but since he won't do so, it's safe to assume that he can't do so.
Pretty interesting power curves I must say, nobody there has said they weren’t legit. Of course those absent can have any opinion. I for one don’t believe the Chinese ever ventured out of their space craft in orbit. We definitely have hoaxes in our scientific papers.
You’re way off, and you’re headed down a track that is obviously blazed by your emotions. You won’t even look at the scientific evidence because you’re all wrapped up in the appearance of a con artist. You simply cannot see past it. And that is not due to your logical reasoning, it is due to your emotions.
Here’s a classic example of how you’re leading with your emotions:
Let me guess—you would accept no evidence of Rossi’s con man personality short of a psychiatric examination which, even if done, we would not see because of privacy laws.
***This is a total distortion of how I view the situation, and you argue against that distortion. Such an approach is a classic fallacy — it’s called straw argumentation. Why would someone who’s “very much a logical person” demonstrate a logical fallacy in the very next paragraph? Because you ain’t nearly as logical as you perceive yourself.
I’m on a low bandwidth connection, not all that interested in Youtube videos at this point.
Good advice.
So, that means that when David Copperfield makes the Statue of Liberty disappear, it must really be happening because “there were a bunch of people there”?
*** The statue is still there. You can go see it now. Similarly, you can prove that Rossi is a fraud by getting a buncha buddies together and buying one.
Do you have any issue with the second part of the statement?
That leaves only 2 possibilities. Either Rossi is a scam artist or it’s the real deal.
The Video is entitled, “Cold Fusion: Physcists Sven Kullander and Hanno Essén interviewed about the Rossi-Focardi cell”
Here’s the English transcript:
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3111124.ece
The translation to the second link above, which is an invitation to a lecture in a week, in part reads:
But maybe all these planned large-scale facilities will compete with small reactors that could be the private property of every man and woman. Cold fusion has been developed recently in Bologna can be housed in an apparatus which is not much bigger than a coffee maker and generating energy only with a few teaspoons of nickel powder.
An intensive discussion on the net have questioned the experiment in Bologna mainly because it can not be explained by the established nuclear physics theory. It has also been speculated that the derivative produced heat energy must have been greatly overestimated mainly by an overestimation of the buildup of steam. At the lecture, these issues will be treated in order to gain a better understanding of the experiment in Bologna. ”
It’s time for the nay-sayers to discredit some Swedish scientists too.
*** The statue is still there. You can go see it now.And yet hundreds of live witnesses, and millions of TV viewers saw it disappear. That is far more convincing than anything Rossi has done, and yet it was obviously a trick.
Similarly, you can prove that Rossi is a fraud by getting a buncha buddies together and buying one.I'm not in the habit of giving my money to con artists. Don't let me stop you, though.
That leaves only 2 possibilities. Either Rossi is a scam artist or it’s the real deal.I would agree with this statement. I suppose it's possible that Rossi is completely psychotic, but I don't believe that.
Rossi's claims are so grandiose that they can't be based on honest error. He claims to have heated his factory for six months with his E-Cat, using only a single charge of "fuel". This would be exactly the kind of demonstration that the skeptics have been begging for.
Too bad that Rossi has absolutely no evidence that he has actually done this.
The Video is entitled, “Cold Fusion: Physcists Sven Kullander and Hanno Essén interviewed about the Rossi-Focardi cell”I find it interesting that in the video, it's clear that their support of Rossi is based entirely on believing everything that Rossi says. For example, they mention that he has "heated his factory for a year using the E-Cat". Unfortunately, there is no actual evidence that he has done anything like this.
Scientists work on the assumption that their peers are honest. This is necessary to avoid having to start each experiment from first principles. However, it leaves very little protection against fraud.
The solution to detecting fraud is to have others repeat experiments and verify similar results. However, Rossi refuses to allow this to happen. Therefore, Rossi is "cheating" the scientific process.
He is welcome to do so, but as long as he does, any claims he makes should be disregarded.
Seriously? You should know by now that my skepticism of Rossi's claims is based completely in science. It is not up to me to prove that the non-scientist Rossi's claims of having achieved transmutation of elements in a way incompatible with the laws of physics; it is up to Rossi to show that he has. I've even discussed the nature of the easily obtained evidence that would support such a claim. And he has shown nothing yet.
As far as feelings go, when I see someone whose behavior patterns are objectively similar to those displayed by con artists in the past--that is, e.g., I can read that a past con artist always had some explanation as to why his "invention" could not be tested by an independent party, and Rossi also does not allow testing by an independent party--then it is safe to say that I have a feeling that Rossi will, in fact, engage in another behavior that is consistent with that of con men. I cannot have objective evidence of an action that will occur in the future.
That last sentence actually exists in a bit of a grey area. A few months ago, the claims were that this device was going to replace all known methods of power generation, and that power plant operators might as well start dismantling their plants, since they were about to be made obsolete. But now, the claim is only that the device is a heater, with power generation still in the future. So it does almost appear that Rossi is already engaged in the behavior of promising that the big breakthrough is just around the corner.
I recall the brilliant scientists of MIT when Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann were hard at work. Openly, they derided him in the extreme. Behind the scenes, they filed a slug of patents on ways to possibly use the technology. We have a world of blithering hypocrites. Something like powered flight comes along and the rage to stop it and deny it because God didn’t give man wings becomes fervent.
I recall the brilliant scientists of MIT when Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann were hard at work. Openly, they derided him in the extreme. Behind the scenes, they filed a slug of patents on ways to possibly use the technology.Wow! I don't know who that rant is aimed at, but if you really hate MIT that much, here's something to cheer you up:
All those patents you say they got when Pons and Fleischmann were getting all of their publicity have by now expired, presumably without ever earning MIT so much as a penny.
Much prettier than the last attempt. This one drops the escrow account part, but does claim to ship in three months.
(Posted to Kevmo to pass on to the Cold Fusion ping list.)
Kevmo: That leaves only 2 possibilities. Either Rossi is a scam artist or it’s the real deal.
JB: I would agree with this statement. ... Rossi’s claims are so grandiose that they can’t be based on honest error.
***Good, then determining the truth will be easier. All this focus on measurements that only make 10% difference are meaningless. Eventually this will be either found out or accepted as real. The proliferation of buyers works against the scam hypothesis.
He claims to have heated his factory for six months with his E-Cat, using only a single charge of “fuel”. This would be exactly the kind of demonstration that the skeptics have been begging for.
***And if I were a buyer, I would insist on seeing it.
Too bad that Rossi has absolutely no evidence that he has actually done this.
***His buyers represent all the evidence he cares about. One thing this suggests is that Rossi easily could give a convincing demo to skeptics, but has chosen not to. I sometimes think this is a mistake but the Wright brothers were in the same position in 1905 when there was a steady stream of visitors asking for demos; their only requirement was that if they showed the device could fly, the person would be buying some units. No one accepted those conditions for 2 years. So, Rossi is doing the same thing.
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