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Live Not by Lies (Newt: legalization, not amnesty)
National Review (NRO) ^ | Nov 28, 2012 | Mark Krikorian

Posted on 11/28/2011 5:48:35 AM PST by heiss


What bugs me most about Gingrich’s amnesty thing is the depressingly familiar dishonesty. As Katrina reports, he says:

"I am not for amnesty for anyone. I am not for a path to citizenship for anybody who got here illegally. But I am for a path to legality for those people whose ties are so deeply into America that it would truly be tragic to try and rip their family apart." [emphasis added]

Put aside the problems with amnesty — implementation riddled with fraud, a magnet to future illegal immigration, insincere promises of future enforcement, playing legal immigrants for chumps, etc. What’s really grating is the Orwellian attempt to redefine words, telling people words don’t mean what they think they mean. “Path to legality” joins “regularization,” “normalization,” “earned-status adjustment,” and all the other sleazy euphemisms we’ve been hearing for years now.

(Excerpt) Read more at nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: aliens; amnesty; election; gingrich; gingrichsameasperry; heartless; newt; noamnesty
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I'm so sick of this. Newt has specifically said he supports "limited amnesty", then elsewhere he denies he is for amnesty for anybody and then he supports legalization.

We have seen this again and again.

Majority of voters strongly oppose amnesty. This is an area where GOP has the biggest lead over Dems in recent polls.

1 posted on 11/28/2011 5:48:40 AM PST by heiss
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To: spectre; truthkeeper; processing please hold; antceecee; navymom1; jaredt112; Edgerunner; ...

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This is a ping list promoting Immigration Enforcement and Congressional Reform.
If you wish to be added or removed from this ping list, please contact me.

Perversion of justice - Border Patrol Agent, solitary confinement

Gingrich Tells Newsmax: No Amnesty, No Citizenship

York: Front-runner Gingrich gets immigration grief (Iowa Trying to Decide Gingrich or Santorum)

Gingrich’s immigration plan: Strategy, not amnesty

Secure the border first: to be “comprehensive,” immigration reform must be a 2-step process

Debate Flashback: When Bachmann Supported A Non-Deportation Approach To Illegal Immigration

Hispanic Activists Urge GOP To Follow Gingrich's Lead On Immigration

SSI Exclusive: Hiding mass murder behind "national security." (PATCON)

Memo to Gingrich: 'Red card' is path to amnesty

Gingrich: Most illegal immigrants should leave, reapply to become citizens

Gingrich brings common sense to immigration debate

Newt Gingrich Stands by 'Soft' Immigration Stance, Despite Party Backlash

Illegal Immigrant Beat Toddler to Death: Cops

Debate Flashback: When Bachmann Supported A Non-Deportation Approach to Illegal Immigration

Newt Gingrich Addresses Illegal Immigration and Amnesty (Video - Naples FL Townhall)

Debate Flashback: When Bachmann Supported A Non-Deportation Approach To Illegal Immigration

Bachmann Ratchets Up Spat With Gingrich Over Illegal Immigration Stance

Bachmann Renews Attack on Gingrich Over Immigration

Michele Bachmann takes another swipe at Newt Gingrich over illegal immigration

Solving the illegal alien problem.

Family says teen killed self over immigration troubles

GOP Latinos face questions of own immigrant past

An End to Illegal Immigration

How Eisenhower Solved Illegal Border Crossings from Mexico

Gingrich is Right, Bachmann is Wrong in Immigration Dispute

D.A. King: Adios, Newt - Nothing ‘humanitarian’ about Gingrich Amnesty Proposal

Cain Wants Illegal Immigration Issue Shifted to States (Cain says he won't deport, up to states to)

May 2011: Tancredo says "Ron Paul now supports amnesty" [Gingrich plan copies Paul's)

ALERT JOBLESS AMERICANS! Mexico Has a Much Lower Unemployment Rate than the United States!

Gingrich supported Bush's path to amnesty

BW Oversells Its Story on Americans and Dirty Jobs

Tough Guy on Immigration? (from 2007 - Romney's four sanctuary cities)

Court-sealed Diaz case documents posted online - Activists say 'facts filtered' by judge

Texas students refusal to say Mexican pledge, national anthem starts controversy

Herman Cain anti-Amnesty Transcript

2 posted on 11/28/2011 5:53:46 AM PST by bcsco (A vote for Cain will cure the Pain!)
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To: heiss

People CAN change their minds as they learn more and mature. I like this policy that he is proposing. I do want to see much more detail about how it would work. I sincerely believe it can be accomplished without amnesty.


3 posted on 11/28/2011 5:54:03 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: heiss; fightinJAG
Newt is a classic conman, using the old bait-and-switch tactic.

Anybody who believes that a second-class “red card semi-citizenship” is going to stand up to Supreme Court review is either a liar or a moron, and Newt is no moron.

He just knows he can't sell amnesty for what it is, but he needs to drape it in a thin temporary subterfuge to get it passed.

That lying con artist makes my skin crawl. He has no beliefs, only temporary tactical positions meant to advance his own political power.

If we nominate this conman, we truly deserve the moniker “the stupid party.”

4 posted on 11/28/2011 5:54:44 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: heiss

Who are you supporting?

Any chance this issue will swing huge blocks of independents and Dems to the GOP?

Think about it!


5 posted on 11/28/2011 5:55:46 AM PST by G Larry ("I dream of a day when a man is judged by the content of his Character.")
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To: SumProVita

You actually believe that the SCOTUS will allow an “apartheid” system of official red-card second-class-citizenship to stand?

I have a few bridges and tunnels in the New York area to sell you, cheap.

This is nothing but bait-and-switch by a master liar and conman. He knows full well that red cards will be turned into citizens by SCOTUS if this crack-brained scheme ever passed into law.


6 posted on 11/28/2011 5:57:44 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: bcsco

Your efforts at headlne lists are not unnoticed...Love it!


7 posted on 11/28/2011 5:57:56 AM PST by magna carta
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To: heiss

Slick politians and academics have gotten us to this point. It is time for a different approach. I will not vote for Newt


8 posted on 11/28/2011 5:58:10 AM PST by Nifster
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To: heiss
But I am for a path to legality for those people whose ties are so deeply into America that it would truly be tragic to try and rip their family apart."

This meets my definition of amnesty. I am against it. Let them go home and apply for legal status here. You don't have to round up 12 million people, just cut off the magnets and most will loeave on their own.

9 posted on 11/28/2011 5:58:25 AM PST by umgud
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To: SumProVita

Do you understand the words legalization and limited amnesty?

if you believe they are not amnesty, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.


10 posted on 11/28/2011 5:59:25 AM PST by heiss (heartless)
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To: Travis McGee

Very True...this is the debasement of the meaning of “citizenship”. Stealing from vessel A to fill Vessel B.


11 posted on 11/28/2011 5:59:39 AM PST by magna carta
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To: SumProVita

Interesting that Newt goes back to the last amnesty by Reagan that was supposed to be the amnesty to end all amnesty. This is ridiculous. They are here illegally. The do not acculturate themselves. Go back to the third world hell hole that is Mexico. Change it and their lives will be enriched


12 posted on 11/28/2011 6:00:15 AM PST by Nifster
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To: SumProVita
There's a much better way than this claptrap of a "plan" that Newt is pushing...just follow Eisenhower's model from 1954:

How Eisenhower solved illegal border crossings from Mexico

13 posted on 11/28/2011 6:00:57 AM PST by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: Travis McGee
He knows full well that red cards will be turned into citizens by SCOTUS if this crack-brained scheme ever passed into law.

Ah, lighten up Travis, he's prolly only talking about a few hundred thousand. /s

14 posted on 11/28/2011 6:02:37 AM PST by umgud
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To: heiss

Newt has begun a discussion with proposals that do, indeed warrant a full debate - in Congress and the States with voters’ input.

His RED CARD approach is bold and controversial, but his ‘border control’ has been neglected by all presidents since Eisenhauer.

Candor and controversy are what keeps elected officials honest.


15 posted on 11/28/2011 6:09:59 AM PST by sodpoodle ( Gingrich-Cain 2012)
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To: sodpoodle
Candor and controversy are what keeps elected officials honest.

Candor? You actually consider Newt's phrase 'path to non-deportation' candor?

16 posted on 11/28/2011 6:12:10 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: heiss

Good point. Since when does amnesty by any definition mean immediate granting of US citizenship?

Newt’s plan, by the way, makes the acquisition of citizenship pretty straightforward: current illegals (and any other millions of unskilled laborers employers could choose to bring into the country) would be ‘legalized’ via a red card or Newt’s humaneness standard. Then, he’d be happy for them to apply for citizenship while on a visit to the home country, then come back here and go about their business while waiting for their citizenship to come through.


17 posted on 11/28/2011 6:12:29 AM PST by 9YearLurker
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To: Timber Rattler

This STILL doesn’t answer my questions about how to accomplish this today.

MY question still remains about HOW to deal with those families who have been here for 25 years or more with children and grandchildren who are all Americans....and no longer speak the language of the parents’ country of origin. AND, what if the country of origin is extremely dangerous for the elderly original parents? In this case, I like what Speaker Gingrich has proposed for that group only....and yes, it should be done on a case by case basis. The way he has described this, it is NOT amnesty. They do not receive citizenship and cannot vote. I DO think they should pay a fine for breaking the law.

And regarding the breaking of the law....(I’m trying to be honest here)...many Americans have encouraged Hispanics in particular to come here and to stay here. They liked their willingness to do hard work, often types of work that others did not want to do. Businesses encouraged it....and often government officials did not enforce the laws. It is understandable that, over the years, many of these people were indirectly encouraged to come here. Many people, legal and illegal were ignoring the law.


18 posted on 11/28/2011 6:13:24 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: Travis McGee

Are you speaking of only those families who have been here for 25 years or more?


19 posted on 11/28/2011 6:14:57 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: SumProVita

If they stay to work, they must sign away any chance they ever would have to become a US citizen... no voting rights, ever.

High tax on any money going out of the US to Mexico.

All employers who hire non-American citizens, MUST provide health insurance for the non-American workers and provide an education for the non-American workers’ families.

End of anchor baby nonsense.


20 posted on 11/28/2011 6:15:48 AM PST by Reagan69 (I supported Sarah Palin and all I got was a lousy DVD !)
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To: dirtboy

YUP!

Related to CANDOR
Synonyms: bluntness, candidness, directness, forthrightness, frankness, honesty, openheartedness, openness, outspokenness, plainness, plainspokenness, plumpness, straightforwardness, unguardedness, unreserve, unreservedness
Antonyms: dissembling, dissimulation, indirection


21 posted on 11/28/2011 6:16:05 AM PST by sodpoodle ( Gingrich-Cain 2012)
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To: heiss

“Path to legality” is like another euphemism for amnesty mouthed by the open borders crowd: “bring them out of the shadows.”

Neut wants amnesty. He denies it’s amnesty by saying he is not supporting citizenship for illegal invaders, just legal status and permanent residence here.

That’s amnesty, if defacto rather than de jure amnesty. And, of course, it will be only step one; step two will be full citizenship so they can swell the numbers of the Dimocrat ranks.

If Neut was really in favor of border enforcement and sending recent arrivals back, what can he show us he did in this regard while he was Speaker of the House?


22 posted on 11/28/2011 6:17:19 AM PST by SharpRightTurn ( White, black, and red all over--America's affirmative action, metrosexual president.)
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To: Travis McGee
Newt is worse than a conman. This is how demagogues in the world get into power, they are smooth talkers who lull people into forgetting what they really stand for. Newt has a record a mile long and much of it liberal globalist, including support for gun control laws and eroding American sovereignty.

In this case though he's only fooling some conservatives apparently because Independents and the majority of women would never go for him so we would end up with four more years of Obama.

23 posted on 11/28/2011 6:17:28 AM PST by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: Nifster

“The do not acculturate themselves.”

I have been speaking of those families who have been here for 25 years or more...and they HAVE assimilated. Most of the children and grandchildren of these families are VERY American and no longer speak the language of their elders.

I also understand that for ANY policy to work, the border MUST be sealed...and that should be done first!


24 posted on 11/28/2011 6:19:47 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: heiss
But I am for a path to legality

If that is NOT amnesty, then why do we even need a 'path to legality'?

What does 'a path to legality' give them that they are not already getting?

==

'Path to legality' or 'path to non-deportation' or whatever Newt and Washington want to call it, it is nothing but more wiggle-words resulting in nothing being done to resolve the problem.

Red Card just imposes another layer of bureaucracy on agencies that doing little/nothing to resolve the problem now. Red Card is a typical Washington non-solution resolution.

It is politicospeak. So is 'secure the border'. So is 'energy independence' [that one has been going around for 40+ years and we are even less 'energy dependent' today than when it was in most politicial spiels 40 years ago.]
25 posted on 11/28/2011 6:20:20 AM PST by TomGuy
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To: heiss

I wonder what the difference between “legality” and “amnesty” is?


26 posted on 11/28/2011 6:20:35 AM PST by SuzyQue
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To: Reagan69

“If they stay to work, they must sign away any chance they ever would have to become a US citizen... no voting rights, ever.”

Would that be according to our Constitution?

Are you speaking about only those families who have been here 25 years or more?


27 posted on 11/28/2011 6:23:54 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: heiss

Newt on immigration
http://www.newt.org/solutions/immigration

Newt’s solution
(My comments)

1. Control the border
…Round-the-clock drone flights to monitor activity, multi-layer, strategic fencing in urban areas, and vastly improved communication between state and federal authorities.
(So they can ground the drones whenever they want to)

2. Create a 21st Century Visa Program
…A biometric, tamper-proof card.
(let everyone in)

3. “In-source” the best brains in the world
…Allow easier transition from an F (student) visa to an H1-B (high-skill) visa.
…Allow qualified foreign students to transition immediately into the American workforce.
(Make it easier for foreign students to compete against Americans for jobs and keep wages down)

4. Allow foreigners, who want to spend money, invest and create jobs in America to do so.

(What he is saying here is to do away with the $1 million minimum investment required for an EB-5 program that allows foreigners to move here. Open business based on the foreigner’s skill to raise American capital, as long as he employees people for 10 years)

Also
…More consular staff and a video interview program… … to create more tourism jobs.

(Newt points out that we loose millions of tourist a year do to illegal immigration)

(Make it easier for the rich to retire in America)

5. There has to be a legal quest worker program, but its management must be outsourced to a sophisticated manager of anti-fraud systems, such as American Express, Visa, or Mastercard.

(Replace E-Verify for guest workers and pay corporations for providing biometric cards)

6. Create a path to earned legality for some of the millions of people who are here outside the law.

(Oh, there are only 8 to 12 million illegal aliens)

…”A citizens’ review” “in individual communities” to “determine who will continue on this path to legality, and who will be sent home.”
(to insure that communities remain segregated)

…”those here outside the law will be granted Temporary Legal Status”
(All of them)

…”must be able to prove that they can independently pay for private health insurance”
…”proficiency in English within a certain number of years”
(Is he talking about those that have already been here 25 years? My neighbor wouldn’t qualify)

…”pay a penalty of at least $5,000”
(Each of their kids cost the taxpayer approximately $130,000 for kindergarten thru 12th grade)

…”prove on a regular basis that they can support themselves”

7. Deportation of criminals and gang members should be efficient and fast.
(Nothing about sanctuary cities)

8. Ensure that every new citizen and every young American learn American history and the key principles of American Exceptionalism.

9. English must be the official language of government.

10. Young non-citizens who came to the United States outside the law should have the same right to join the military and earn citizenship.

…there will not be an option to petition for legal status and citizenship for their parents…


28 posted on 11/28/2011 6:24:03 AM PST by Haddit (Heartless)
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To: SumProVita

“MY question still remains about HOW to deal with those families who have been here for 25 years or more with children and grandchildren who are all Americans”

So your solution is to give mass-amnesty every 20 or 10 years?
Besides, what about those millions of people who still have family members out of country because they are (stupidly) waiting for legal opportunity to immigrate?

The only honest (and also, winning) approach for GOP nominee is this:
- absolutely no amnesty, legalization or whatever is the latest name for it
- build a fence (”shovel-ready jobs”). This protects us against illegals, drug-dealers, terrorists, and human trafficking. Let’s start with 200 miles/year.
- enforce current laws
- mandate e-verify
- support states in their enforcement laws
- get tough on foreign countries who support illegal entries: If Mexico enables and supports illegal entries, then no visas or trucks allowed anymore for Mexico.

Perry and Newt are the two totally unacceptable nominees. They should run for President of Mexico instead.


29 posted on 11/28/2011 6:26:12 AM PST by heiss (heartless)
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To: SumProVita

“MY question still remains about HOW to deal with those families who have been here for 25 years or more with children and grandchildren who are all Americans”

So your solution is to give mass-amnesty every 20 or 10 years?
Besides, what about those millions of people who still have family members out of country because they are (stupidly) waiting for legal opportunity to immigrate?

The only honest (and also, winning) approach for GOP nominee is this:
- absolutely no amnesty, legalization or whatever is the latest name for it
- build a fence (”shovel-ready jobs”). This protects us against illegals, drug-dealers, terrorists, and human trafficking. Let’s start with 200 miles/year.
- enforce current laws
- mandate e-verify
- support states in their enforcement laws
- get tough on foreign countries who support illegal entries: If Mexico enables and supports illegal entries, then no visas or trucks allowed anymore for Mexico.

Perry and Newt are the two totally unacceptable nominees. They should run for President of Mexico instead.


30 posted on 11/28/2011 6:26:20 AM PST by heiss (heartless)
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To: heiss

There are several considerations that need to be looked at rationally.

(Add to that, it is *always* a bad idea to try and treat a large group of people under a blanket rule, because that is a recipe for stupid cruelty. Having and using more solutions than just one does much to alleviate this, even if it forces people to *think* some, and not just *feel*.)

First and foremost, the general situation about immigration is that we have already won, in the long term. Why? Because Mexican reproduction rates have dropped from strong growth to just sustainability. About 2.3 children per family. This means that Mexican wages have to go up, which strongly undermines emigration.

Second, rationally, we need to subdivide illegal aliens into two groups: economic migrants and serious criminals.

Obviously, the priority is to get the serious criminals first. But there are so many that deporting them creates a problem for *Mexico*, because when they cross the border, they are recruited by the drug gangs.

There might be a relatively easy and cheap solution for this, however, not yet considered. What if, by treaty, the US built a very large, maximum security prison, in Mexico, just south of the border?

Think of it as a “duty free prison”. With both American and Mexican guards, yet prisoners would serve their full time, no parole or probation, with no right of appeal to courts on either side.

Simply put, if US prisoners are Mexican nationals, they serve all their time in a legal enclave in Mexico, and when eventually released, they are released in Mexico.

As far as the “economic migrant” illegals already here, they need to be again subdivided into those that are going to school, integrating, working and willing to work; and the “welfare babies”, who stay in Mexican ghettos, make no effort to integrate, and live exclusively on the public dole.

Again obviously, the emphasis needs to be on deporting the slackers. Not surprisingly, it is fairly easy to tell them apart. And once the slackers are kicked out, or at least cut off from their support, the rest of illegal aliens could likely be naturalized. But the rules would have to be changed so that they could do so without leaving the US.

The secret here is that the US does want a certain number of immigrants, and educated, working Mexicans are a lot better choice than many of the other peoples the US has been inviting.


31 posted on 11/28/2011 6:27:08 AM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: heiss
Nothing can be done unless they stop the bennies! Anchor babies must be addressed. Why not make it punishable by law to purposely give birth in America?
32 posted on 11/28/2011 6:27:35 AM PST by Sybeck1 (Mitt Romney, a piss poor choice)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
“Obviously, the priority is to get the serious criminals first. But there are so many that deporting them creates a problem for *Mexico*, because when they cross the border, they are recruited by the drug gangs.”

They should be dropped off down by the Guatemala border.

33 posted on 11/28/2011 6:29:46 AM PST by Sybeck1 (Mitt Romney, a piss poor choice)
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To: heiss
It's despicable how politicians have bastardized and played games with the definition of the word "amnesty" to hide their real intentions on this issue. W was totally against amnesty and rewarding illegal behavior in the 2004 debates with Kerry. We know what happened in 2006 and 2007.

But amnesty means a pardon granted to a large number of people. And all these schemes Newt and others have proposed forgive the lawbreakers, and waive the penalties prescribed by law for illegal entrants and visa overstayers.

Any scheme that doesn't require that the laws be enforced for these particular lawbreakers is amnesty. And the law prescribes that these lawbreakers be deported.

34 posted on 11/28/2011 6:32:19 AM PST by Will88
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To: SumProVita
It's actually, pretty simple. Enforce the existing laws, crack down hard nationally in all 50 states, and then deport as many illegals as the Border Patrol/ICE can catch. If the illegals have dependents who are American citizens, then they can go back with their parents and return when they are 18. I don't care if they are children or not. They are still illegal.

As Eisenhower's men found in 1954, once the crack down starts, the illegals will mostly deport themselves. Just look at what happened in Arizona and Alabama when they toughened their laws---entire illegal alien communities simply packed up and left after dark.

This is not rocket science.

35 posted on 11/28/2011 6:32:44 AM PST by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: sodpoodle
YUP!

Well, you can lap up Newt's doublespeak all you want. Just don't try to sell us who believe in plain language that it's anything but.

36 posted on 11/28/2011 6:33:37 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: SumProVita
People CAN change their minds as they learn more and mature. I like this policy that he is proposing. I do want to see much more detail about how it would work. I sincerely believe it can be accomplished without amnesty.

Then, pass legislation and make it legal to invade the USA.

Otherwise, deport them.

37 posted on 11/28/2011 6:35:35 AM PST by donna (This is what happens when America is no longer a Christian nation.)
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To: magna carta

Thanks!


38 posted on 11/28/2011 6:35:55 AM PST by bcsco (A vote for Cain will cure the Pain!)
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To: SuzyQue
The character 'Red' in Shawshank Redemption summed up the concept quite well:

Well, now, let me see. You know, I don't have any idea what that means ... I know what you think it means, sonny. To me, it's just a made-up word. A politician's word, sonny.

Legality is just that - a politician's word.

39 posted on 11/28/2011 6:36:54 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: heiss

“So your solution is to give mass-amnesty every 20 or 10 years?”

WHERE in the world did you get THAT idea?
I also believe that I have made it clear that the border MUST be sealed immediately for any policy to be enforced.

I have 3 possible candidates still on my list:
Cain
Gingrich
Perry
(alphabetical order)

;-)


40 posted on 11/28/2011 6:42:11 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: dirtboy

I may be a sodpoodle - but I don’t ‘lap up’.

I do try to stay skeptical and civil. Not besotted with Newt - which is a good thing. Too often we project all our aspirations and invest emotions in candidates that are human and flawed.

Elected officials are not our parents, children, spouses or close friends - they are our employees.

I have hired and fired people based on performance - not promises.


41 posted on 11/28/2011 6:42:33 AM PST by sodpoodle ( Gingrich-Cain 2012)
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To: Timber Rattler

Sorry, but I don’t like that policy.


42 posted on 11/28/2011 6:46:17 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: SumProVita

“People CAN change their minds as they learn more and mature.”

Too bad we can’t apply this common sense attitude to several of our candidates... the conservatives are eating their young....

ABO

I’ll vote for anyone but Ron Paul. Well, I guess I’d even vote for HIM vs. BO.


43 posted on 11/28/2011 6:52:00 AM PST by bitt ( Obama is so unpopular now that the Kenyans say he was definitely born in Hawaii)
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To: bitt

Actually, I agree. Another 4 years of Obama will kill this nation.


44 posted on 11/28/2011 6:54:20 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: sodpoodle
I do try to stay skeptical and civil.

Well, quite frankly, I'd say your skepticism could use a bit of overhaul.

Newt is playing the same non-amnesty amnesty game that McCain and Bush played last decade.

I would have more respect for him if he quit trying to parse what he is proposing.

The fact that he is playing the parsing game shows he is up to no good here.

45 posted on 11/28/2011 7:05:22 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: dirtboy

Agreed.


46 posted on 11/28/2011 7:05:51 AM PST by SuzyQue
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To: heiss
Actually, strictly speaking Gingrich's "Red Card" proposal is not amnesty: those who came her illegally and qualify for and accept "Red Cards" would not forgiven their transgression of American law, but are placed under the permanent legal disability of never being able to attain citizenship, even though we do not deport them and permit them to remain here permanently. (cf. here and here regarding the strict meaning of the word "amnesty")

It is not Newt's fault that "amnesty" seems to be the one word those of us on the right have turned into Newspeak. Strictly speaking amnesty means a general pardon or forgiveness of (some class of) offenses, which removes all legal rememberance of the offence, but as applied to immigration offenses, the word turns slippery in meaning just as the left's real-world Newspeak "health care", "climate change", and the like do. Sometimes the person using the word will mean strictly what the English word amnesty means, which would imply if their immigration offenses are completely pardoned or forgiven, and there was no legal rememberance of them, that theretofore illegal immigrants could seek citizenship -- and Newt's "Red Card" proposal is not that, it regularizes the legal status of those not deported (remember he did advocate some deportations) under a legal disability due to their past immigration crime -- sometimes (cf. Bachmann's attacks on Gingrich) the word is used to mean application of any measure short of deportation to illegal immigrants. Given that, his application of the word "amnesty" qualified with adjectives is almost necessary.

Long-time FReepers will recall I have often made a distinction between "amnesty-into-guest-worker-status" and "amnesty-onto-a-path-to-citizenship", and written in favor of the first, and with vehemence equal to any FReeper against the second. I think, given my commitment to preserving English against the encroachment of Newspeak, I should stop making that distinction.

Regularizing the status of illegal immigrants in any way that places them under a disability that prevents them from becoming citizens is not amnesty. It remembers their offense but on humanitarian grounds, for economic reasons, or perhaps simply out of recognition that our immigration laws combining lack of a guest-worker program and inconsistent enforcement have been broken for decades, applies a measure other than deportation.

47 posted on 11/28/2011 7:15:06 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: heiss
Newt does not support amnesty, he supports de facto back flip amnesty, it would be amnesty if you leave the lipstick off the pig.
48 posted on 11/28/2011 7:18:06 AM PST by org.whodat (Just another heartless American, hated by "AMNESTY" Newt, Willard, Perry and his fellow supporters.)
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To: SumProVita
Trying to be honest here, but I think you may have signed on to the wrong location, jim does not support this amnesty BS you are pushing.
49 posted on 11/28/2011 7:23:19 AM PST by org.whodat (Just another heartless American, hated by "AMNESTY" Newt, Willard, Perry and his fellow supporters.)
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To: SumProVita
Sorry, but I don’t like that policy.

Well, tough.

50 posted on 11/28/2011 7:25:59 AM PST by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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