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Raising Taxes on the Rich: Not Whether, but How
New York Times ^ | 12/6/2011 | Brcue Bartlett

Posted on 12/06/2011 6:35:47 AM PST by Vintage Freeper

Last week, the Senate rejected proposals by both Democrats and Republicans to pay for an extension of the 2 percent temporary payroll tax cut enacted a year ago. The Democratic plan to finance it with a 3.25 percent surtax on millionaires garnered significantly more votes than the Republican plan to cut the number of federal jobs and freeze the pay of federal workers.  (Snip)

Republicans like to pretend that cutting spending is economically costless, even stimulative, whereas raising taxes in any way whatsoever is so economically debilitating that it dare not be contemplated. This view is complete nonsense.  (Snip)

Careful studies by the Congressional Budget Office and others show that certain spending programs are highly stimulative, whereas tax cuts provide very little bang for the buck.

(Excerpt) Read more at finance.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS:
Bartlett has joined the ranks of the propagandists for socialism. He has become nothing more than a junk economist, a pied piper touting people to follow the road to serfdom.

Arguing that government spending is stimulative is non-sense. Government only decides where money is to be spent. It doesn't produce wealth at all, it simply dictates where it is to be wasted or consumed.

To actually grow the economy, it is necessary to save and invest in the means of production. Common sense (the thing Mr. Bartlett would have you abandon) says wealthy people are better savers and investors. Taking their savings and decreasing their investments can increase consumption (stimulation) in the short run, but it decreases production in the long run. Bartlett is arguing for a prescription for progressive impoverishment. His initials should be changed from BB to BS.

1 posted on 12/06/2011 6:35:49 AM PST by Vintage Freeper
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To: Vintage Freeper

Bruce Bartlett didn’t recently join anything! He’s been on board for quite some time!

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=JY8LKII_MNA&feature=youtube_gdata_player


2 posted on 12/06/2011 6:40:04 AM PST by Bigun ("The most fearsome words in the English language are I'm from the government and I'm here to help!")
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To: Vintage Freeper

Taxes should NOT be raised on anyone, rich or poor, until the government gets its fiscal house in order. Too much wasteful spending, too much money is unaccounted for, too much pork spending, and government agencies growing and spending without oversight.


3 posted on 12/06/2011 6:42:33 AM PST by From The Deer Stand
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To: Vintage Freeper

“To actually grow the economy, it is necessary to save and invest in the means of production. Common sense (the thing Mr. Bartlett would have you abandon) says wealthy people are better savers and investors. Taking their savings and decreasing their investments can increase consumption (stimulation) in the short run, but it decreases production in the long run. Bartlett is arguing for a prescription for progressive impoverishment.”

It is worth repeating.


4 posted on 12/06/2011 6:43:29 AM PST by all the best (`~!)
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To: Vintage Freeper

“To actually grow the economy, it is necessary to save and invest in the means of production. Common sense (the thing Mr. Bartlett would have you abandon) says wealthy people are better savers and investors. Taking their savings and decreasing their investments can increase consumption (stimulation) in the short run, but it decreases production in the long run. Bartlett is arguing for a prescription for progressive impoverishment.”

It is worth repeating.


5 posted on 12/06/2011 6:44:04 AM PST by all the best (`~!)
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To: From The Deer Stand

Whatever happened to the Constitution that says the government must treat each and every citizen exactly the same? It does not allow for “progressive taxes.” Neither should we.


6 posted on 12/06/2011 6:46:40 AM PST by edcoil (It is not over until I win.)
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To: Vintage Freeper

The house is on fire. Tax increases of any kind are more fuel. When the house is burning, throwing in fuel is not balanced.

Only spending cuts will reduce the flames. A balanced approach is to cut spending everywhere.


7 posted on 12/06/2011 6:47:08 AM PST by Rippin
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To: Vintage Freeper

“Careful studies by the Congressional Budget Office ...”

Like asking Dracula to study the benefits of blood-letting...

Government spending and borrowing is paid for by the children-
what kind of society thinks it “compassionate” to charge children for their food?


8 posted on 12/06/2011 6:47:41 AM PST by mrsmith (Elect a 'Tea Party' Majority Leader in 2012 or we're DOOMED!)
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To: From The Deer Stand

“Taxes should NOT be raised on anyone, rich or poor, until the government gets its fiscal house in order. “

The Republicans are going to be hurt badly over the payroll tax issue.

The Republicans want to effectively raise taxes on working people. However, they fight tooth and nail to keep from raising taxes on the rich.

If consumers have less money, that will hurt the economy just as taking money from the “job creators”. By the way, where are those jobs? Oh, I forgot, India and China.


9 posted on 12/06/2011 6:47:41 AM PST by brownsfan (Aldous Huxley and Mike Judge were right.)
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To: Vintage Freeper
Freeze the pay of Federal workers....What a concept!!

CUT the pay of federal workers.

10 posted on 12/06/2011 6:57:34 AM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: brownsfan

The message that Republicans ought to be getting out is that no taxes without attendant cost cutting. But the whole environment in Dc is against that. The region around DV is the only “growth areas” in the country, at least for the housing market. A ten-percent reduction in wages for government workers would crash that economy. But all across government, there is a growing obsession with additional controls on the citizenry. Really the only thing that government can do is to make more law as they desperately keep digging deeper.


11 posted on 12/06/2011 6:57:44 AM PST by RobbyS (Viva Christus Rex.)
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To: Vintage Freeper

If a blue collar worker can pay a set percentage of their 5 digit income to taxes. Then a white collar worker can pay the same percentage on their 7 digit income.


12 posted on 12/06/2011 6:58:38 AM PST by DMG2FUN
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To: brownsfan

“The Republicans are going to be hurt badly over the payroll tax issue.”

That’s true. But only because the dumb masses believe that they are owed property from the wealthy. The ‘Zero Sum’ propaganda works well with Stupid voters.

Raising taxes on the ‘rich’ will not increase revenue. But in the eyes of the collectivist failures, it’ll make them feel better.
(See Romer’s analysis on raising taxes 1% results in 3% decrease in GDP. There will be a negative reaction from those who understand how to create value.)

‘Thou shalt not covet’


13 posted on 12/06/2011 6:58:56 AM PST by griswold3 (Character is Destiny)
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To: brownsfan

“The Republicans are going to be hurt badly over the payroll tax issue.

The Republicans want to effectively raise taxes on working people. “

The Republicans’ way of paying for the payroll cut is better. They only get hurt because the media falsely portrays them as against the cut. Everything is their fault.

Better to just send checks to these people.


14 posted on 12/06/2011 7:00:36 AM PST by mrsmith (Elect a 'Tea Party' Majority Leader in 2012 or we're DOOMED!)
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To: Vintage Freeper

Since the GOP appears to lack any stomach for real spending cuts, I’m afraid that’s where we are headed.

A VAT and a Tobin Tax are my predictions.


15 posted on 12/06/2011 7:00:58 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
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To: Vintage Freeper
Tax the rich? Good luck with that
16 posted on 12/06/2011 7:03:43 AM PST by mewzilla (Santelli 2012)
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To: griswold3

“Raising taxes on the ‘rich’ will not increase revenue. But in the eyes of the collectivist failures, it’ll make them feel better.”

I would grant that there is some of that. I’m really focused on independents, the registered Democrats are no concern, as they are already lost. But, the average independent is a casual observer. What that casual observer sees is the GOP fighting to the death to avoid raising taxes on the wealthy, while fighting to negate a tax cut for the working class.

That won’t play well in Peoria.


17 posted on 12/06/2011 7:04:43 AM PST by brownsfan (Aldous Huxley and Mike Judge were right.)
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To: RobbyS

The other message: A simplified tax code with low tax rates is best for all, and will alleviate being at the mercy of Democrats passing legislation every year.


18 posted on 12/06/2011 7:10:11 AM PST by Son House (The Economic Boom Heard Around The World => TEA Party 2012)
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To: mrsmith

“The Republicans’ way of paying for the payroll cut is better. “

All politics is local... the only economy that matters is the individual’s economy.

With that in mind, an independent sees a GOP that will shut down the government over taxes on the wealthy. But, when it comes to taxes on that independent, that person’s personal taxes, the GOP will fight to let them go up.

You may scoff, but symbolism matters. And if I’m making $50k and suddenly it becomes $49k, and it’s substantially because of the GOP. I know who I’ll punish.


19 posted on 12/06/2011 7:10:42 AM PST by brownsfan (Aldous Huxley and Mike Judge were right.)
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To: brownsfan

“I’m really focused on independents”

Listen to Obama’s ‘New Nationalism’ speech today. If the people can be bribed with their own money, this country deserves what is going to happen to them.
The Democrats are the best at framing the arguments. The American Voter do not understand the historical consequences of collectivism. The Corporatism that the Obama administration is enacting no different from facism of old. Enjoy your chains.


20 posted on 12/06/2011 7:14:54 AM PST by griswold3 (Character is Destiny)
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To: brownsfan

oh sure, you’ll “punish the GOP” by voting democrat or not voting or voting “independent” ....

that will show them! and think about how much lower your taxes will be

If $50K is rich
maybe I want to go Galt and make $40K and keep more of it and work less for it


21 posted on 12/06/2011 7:16:49 AM PST by silverleaf (common sense is not so common- voltaire)
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To: brownsfan

The Republican plan to pay for it is to cut the number of federal jobs and freeze the pay of federal workers.

The Dems’ refuse to do that so it is “substantially because of the GOP”?

Only if the media convince people that it is!

Well, I agree the lying media will make it the R’s fault because they didn’t do what the D’s wanted- but the media always do.
And that is the real problem you are speaking of.


22 posted on 12/06/2011 7:23:27 AM PST by mrsmith (Elect a 'Tea Party' Majority Leader in 2012 or we're DOOMED!)
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To: griswold3

“The Democrats are the best at framing the arguments. The American Voter do not understand the historical consequences of collectivism. “

You’re not thinking like an independent voter. You’re getting all whipped up about the big picture. I posted it once, it’s a fact:

All politics is local, the only economy that matters is the individual’s own economy.

It’s not collectivism, socialism, or communism. It’s simply a working class person seeing the GOP go to the matt to stop taxes on the wealthy, while essentially doing nothing to stop, (even enabling), an increase on the workers.

That is how it looks, and that is how the Democrats will play it. The GOP will be punished if the payroll tax goes up.


23 posted on 12/06/2011 7:25:35 AM PST by brownsfan (Aldous Huxley and Mike Judge were right.)
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To: From The Deer Stand
Taxes should NOT be raised on anyone, rich or poor, until the government gets its fiscal house in order. Too much wasteful spending, too much money is unaccounted for, too much pork spending, and government agencies growing and spending without oversight.

The government can't raise taxes on the rich, only on the middle class. I know - I'm what the far left calls "rich". When my taxes go up, I raise what I charge (I can because my competitors raise their rates too) so that the entire tax increase is passed on to my customers, and my customers pay what I ask and pass it on to their customers. Raise taxes on your doctor, and your medical rates go up, so medical insurance costs rise. Raise taxes on the lawyers, and they charge more, and their customers (the grocery store being sued in yet another frivolous slip-fall, and the other businesses we all visit) pass the higher costs on to us. In the end, the middle class pays for all tax increases, but the politicians like to lie and pretend it's only "the rich".

The sad thing is that, because voters think it's money from "the rich" that is being wasted by Washington, they don't mind the reckless spending as much as they would if they understood it is their money that is being wasted. The "tax the rich" philosophy of the far left is immoral both because it is based on envy and because it is harmful to everyone, including to those the leftists claim to care about.

24 posted on 12/06/2011 7:26:22 AM PST by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
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To: Vintage Freeper

I always thought raising taxes on the wealthy was a folly. But, seeing as how rich liberals seem to be pushing it and seeing as how the same rich lib’s control the media and rich Repub’s dont seem to be doing anything about it except for Rupert Murdoch maybe they deserve to pay more. Maybe that will wake up our 1% since they only seem to be concerened about thier own tax loopholes.


25 posted on 12/06/2011 7:30:09 AM PST by bilhosty (Don' t tax people tax newsprint)
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To: brownsfan
"The Republicans are going to be hurt badly over the payroll tax issue."

Only if Republicans remain true to their prior form.

But in truth, this is the illusive golden goose Republicans have never been able to see, even though it has always been right in front of their eyes. This is the:

WINNING ISSUE

they have always sought. This is the way to completely end the entitlements.

26 posted on 12/06/2011 7:33:28 AM PST by Vintage Freeper
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To: Pollster1

Yep. Taxes are only and always paid by the economically weak.
Like ‘you-know-what’ flows downhill.


27 posted on 12/06/2011 7:36:45 AM PST by mrsmith (Elect a 'Tea Party' Majority Leader in 2012 or we're DOOMED!)
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To: Sacajaweau
"CUT the pay of federal workers."

Apart from the men and women who wear the uniform, how many federal employees are actually needed?

It's a pure guess on my part, but if the government were limited to its actual Constitutional functions, apart from the military, I would guess the reduction could easily, and safely, be at least a ninety percent reduction.

28 posted on 12/06/2011 7:42:25 AM PST by Vintage Freeper
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To: brownsfan
The Republicans want to effectively raise taxes on working people. However, they fight tooth and nail to keep from raising taxes on the rich.

You're arguing for the class warfare approach. I'm putting in 70 hour weeks. I consider myself a "working person" with that level of effort. I receive compensation that you might label "rich". I would argue that "working people" in your context is the low wage earners and union types. The same folks that are flopped on the couch drinking beer and watching football games while I'm still at the office. Why should I get screwed out of even higher taxes to subsidize the slothful that won't work more than 40 hours a week, but want all the perks that come with my level of effort? If taxation removes the incentive to work harder, I know where to find the beer and TV.

29 posted on 12/06/2011 8:03:01 AM PST by Myrddin
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To: Myrddin

“You’re arguing for the class warfare approach. I’m putting in 70 hour weeks. I consider myself a “working person” with that level of effort.”

And you’re being dismissive. Figuring anyone who isn’t at your income level is some sort of sloth. I am not in the wealthy category, but definitely not poor, and not union.

Letting me keep a little more of my money drives the economy. I do spend money. I freely admit, I’m not a job creator. But the job creators seem to have focused their efforts on China and India.

Yeah, I’ll admit, it chaps my behind that they want to fight like heck to avoid taxes on the wealthy, but when it comes to raising MY taxes. No problem.


30 posted on 12/06/2011 8:14:41 AM PST by brownsfan (Aldous Huxley and Mike Judge were right.)
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To: brownsfan
Yeah, I’ll admit, it chaps my behind that they want to fight like heck to avoid taxes on the wealthy, but when it comes to raising MY taxes. No problem.

It is the "wealthy" aka small business owners who will be hit with these tax hikes. They are also the employers. They will do what is necessary to survive. Higher taxes means they have less money to spend on labor and their customers have less disposable income to spend on their products. More people will be put on the streets with no pay check. It's a stupid way to run a country.

31 posted on 12/06/2011 9:02:03 AM PST by Myrddin
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To: Vintage Freeper

A permanent tax on a **temporary** payroll tax cut.
How’s that for progressive logic?.


32 posted on 12/06/2011 9:43:26 AM PST by Vaduz
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To: Myrddin

“It’s a stupid way to run a country.”

Which brings us back to my original point.

We agree taxes are bad, the government wastes far more than it uses for anything worthwhile. The problem is, the GOP has made a production of fighting taxes on the wealthy. But, in this instance, when the taxes will hit the rest of us, the GOP is rolling over.

Bottom line, they’ll fight for the wealthy, but not for me. Right?


33 posted on 12/06/2011 10:54:57 AM PST by brownsfan (Aldous Huxley and Mike Judge were right.)
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To: brownsfan

independents vote for whoever makes them the best deal. They ask, ‘What have you done for me lately?’
That’s why this country is lost. Reasonable, rational policies are lost in the Dems’ ‘10 minutes of hate’.


34 posted on 12/06/2011 3:21:20 PM PST by griswold3 (Character is Destiny)
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To: brownsfan
The Bush tax cuts benefited everyone. The payroll tax cut benefits everyone who earns income at the expense of underfunding social security. The GOP is objecting to raising taxes on one group of people. Not extending the payroll tax cut raises taxes on all income earners. The GOP is not advocating raising taxes on just YOU. You seem to be OK with raising taxes as long as it's not your taxes.
35 posted on 12/06/2011 5:00:20 PM PST by Myrddin
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