Teen homicide suspects have criminal histories(open carry shooting)(VA)

timesdispatch.com ^ | 3 December, 2011 | Reed Williams

[marktwain]

The 16-year-old accused of killing two people in less than seven hours last week in Richmond has several felony convictions, including one for a violent crime.

Toby Smith Jr. is accused of stealing Blaine Tyler's gun inside a gas station last week and fatally shooting him after Tyler chased Smith inside the store.

The Richmond teenager also is accused of fatally shooting Pierre Walter "Pete" Cosby hours later in an attempted robbery in the Oak Grove neighborhood in South Richmond.

Smith, who was arrested Monday and charged in last week's two killings, was convicted in 2010 of malicious wounding, grand larceny and burglary, according to court papers filed in Richmond Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court.

Tyee Marquel Hamiel, another 16-year-old Richmonder, also faces charges in Tyler's killing but not in Cosby's. Hamiel's criminal history includes convictions in 2007 of grand larceny and malicious wounding, according to court records.

Smith and Hamiel also were convicted of attempted grand larceny on the same day in August of this year, the records show.

"This isn't the first time that they've been in trouble together," said Richmond Assistant Commonwealth's Attorney Andy Johnson.

Johnson declined to discuss the specifics of the suspects' prior cases because they involve juvenile records, including what sentences they received.

The court records were filed this week as part of the discovery process for the current cases against Smith and Hamiel. The documents do not list sentencing information or details about the crimes.

Judge Marilynn C. Goss of Richmond Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court denied a motion by a Richmond Times-Dispatch reporter to view portions of the case files for the previous convictions. She ruled that the prior hearings were closed and that the information on the cases, including any sentences handed down, would remain confidential.

[marktwain]

It had to happen eventually. Here we have the extremely rare event where an open carrier was targeted and his gun stolen. He then tried to recover the firearm, and was shot. We do not know if he was shot with his own gun, but we do know that he was shot by a violent young criminal with a long history of crimes, who was involved in another murder only seven hours later.

You can bet that the anti freedom folks from the Violence Policy Center will make this a centerpiece of their efforts to restrict open carry and ccw permits.

[expat1000]

Happens to cops too. Not so often now with better equipment and training but does happen.

[wideawake]

I take your point, but the point should also be made that carrying - like exercising other freedoms - does not automatically make you invincible or smart. Tyler made a number of significant mistakes that cost him his life.

[wideawake]

I take your point, but the point should also be made that carrying - like exercising other freedoms - does not automatically make you invincible or smart. Tyler made a number of significant mistakes that cost him his life.

[Blueflag]

IMHO, if you are going to open carry, employ a SERPA holster or similar to prevent someone from grabbing your weapon and easily removing it.

ANY time my pistol is on my hip, it is in my SERPA.

Sad story nonetheless.

[Ozymandias Ghost]

About a year ago I posted to a thread on open carry trying to make the point that w/o proper equipment (SERPA holster as already pointed out by another poster) and proper weapons retention training; in many situations open carry is tactically unsound and gives up the element of surprise. I received at least one reply that I was wrong; however, incidents such as the one in this article were what I had in mind.

I have mixed feelings about the public relations aspects of open carry in public places. I understand that many who choose to open carry are trying to assert their 2nd amendment rights; and, in many cases, attempting to “de-stigmatize” firearms. After all, firearms are merely tools that have been unfairly demonized by the media and various anti-gun organizations. They are certainly no more dangerous than many power tools or driving a 2000 lb vehicle.

I certainly support the right of an individual to open carry if one chooses to do so. That said, I'm not sure how the general public will react to this situation. Whether we 2nd Amendment advocates like it or not; we are in an ongoing battle to win the “hearts and minds” of the public at large.

[arthurus]

“Youths” convicted of felonies, any felonies, should be locked up until they are middle aged. Letting them go after a short stay in juvie or with probation just gets more people killed, maimed, and robbed. No second chances.

[BTCM]

Many well intentioned people think simply displaying a weapon will deter an attack. I fully support the open carry folks and their cause as it is their right according to the constitution. However, before you purchase a weapon for self protection, either home, personal or business you must truthfully ask yourself if you can really take the life of another person. This case involved a black teen and you know the victim was reluctant for many reasons to shoot a teen. If you have a weapon, use it.

[rellimpank]

--good post--while I live half the year in an area where open carry is common, I generally choose to carry concealed--

--"open carry" didn't work out to well (so far) in California as far as winning any hearts and minds---

[Ozymandias Ghost]

My wife and I were victim's of a senseless, unprovoked, violent street crime about 20 years ago. At that time, our community was considered “safe” ...no muggings, robberies, or other violent crimes ...ours was the first mugging that the local authorities had seen in years (if ever.)

I had been both a shooter and a hunter since my father took me out w/a Colt Woodsman when I was about 8 years old. I have owned a Browning Hi-Power since I turned 21 back in 1969; however, I did not have a CCW/CCP at the time of the crime. I had to apply under the old system in VA; which required a police interview as well as character witnesses and minimal proof of firearms competency plus FBI background check/photo/fingerprints. While having my fingerprints taken at the local PD, the officer doing the prints asked me if I thought I could kill another human being. I told him, that while I did not wish to kill anyone, if it became a matter of my survival or my family's survival I would kill any assailant (of course the “term of art” is “shoot to stop” not “kill”). The strange thing was that he (uniformed patrol officer) replied that he wasn't sure whether he could do that. For his sake, I hope he changed his mind or found another profession.

Of course, when VA changed to a “shall issue” state, my “permanent” CCW/CCP; that I had “jumped thru all the various hoops” for, became invalid and I had to reapply for a permit under the current system. Now, every 5 years they make me do it again and collect more paperwork and money each time.

[Ozymandias Ghost]

To be fair, I doubt anything could change the majority of minds w/regard to 2nd Amendment rights in CA, MA, NY, NJ, CT ...a sad and hopeless case. I truly grieve for the rights of the many in those states who earnestly wish to be able to protect themselves but are prevented by their state and local governments from doing so.

[Labyrinthos]

To be fair, I doubt anything could change the majority of minds w/regard to 2nd Amendment rights in CA, MA, NY, NJ, CT ...a sad and hopeless case. I truly grieve for the rights of the many in those states who earnestly wish to be able to protect themselves but are prevented by their state and local governments from doing so.

I live in NY and have had an unrestricted CCW permit for several years. A CCW permit is not all that hard to obtain unless you live in NYC or Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Albany, Onodanga, Monroe, or Erie County.

[Seamus Mc Gillicuddy]

What stinks is that if you have a CCW for upstate, you still can’t carry in NYC unless you have an endorsement from the NYPD. But if you’re “lucky” enough to have a NYC issued unrestricted permit, you can carry all over the state. Total arbitrary and capricious crap, and is racist in it’s roots. See the Sullivan law. People that support this bilge are supporting laws that were intended to disarm minorities, though they’ll never admit to that. As far as NJ is concerned, I think in order to qualify for public office, you have to openly declare your hatred for anything related to the 2nd Amendment. Merely mentioning the word “gun” in front of a judge, may get you sentenced to 7 years in States prison, because of all of the carnage and mayhem that law abiding citizens create when they decide to arm themselves!!!!!

[Manly Warrior]

Unfortunately, such incidents do occur-rather rarely thankfully.

However, the equation involved when one carries openly is made more complex-wearing a firearm openly requires the actor to increase thier situational awareness and alertness exponentionally to recognize not only potential threats that may require “unconcealing and responding” as in the case of a CCW practioner, but also the threat of “targeting and attack” by someone intent on either teaching the open carrier a lesson (politically or personally as the case may be) or criminally relieving him of his weapon as in this case.

I guess this type of incident makes the case for open carriers to conceal one as well as the tactics may require such consideration..

As others have mentioned, open carry also then by default requires the actor to be that much more proficient in retention techniques and perhaps unarmed techniques as well, not normally included in a standard training program.

My condolence to the families of both victims. I hope the estate of the first victim is not found liable for the death of the second victim, but there may in fact be such linkage under liability law.

I recommend concealed carry for self defence at large, open carry for hunting and field work (as in farming etc)as the likely required use is varied in such applications. Human predators are thinking, planning and rational albeit perverse, while an attacking rabid coyote or skunk is driven by other forces and mostly irrational.

I assume some may rail at my postion, but it would be good to see comparative evidence of violent loss of a concealed weapon to a criminal under similar conditions if someone wanted to argue the point...

[Manly Warrior]

Post script- from re-reading the article it is not obvious that Mr. Tyler was carrying openly. It may be that he was carrying cmncealed and his weapon became visible or printed etc in the moments leading othte violent encounter.

If he was indeed carrying concelaed and his method failed, it is a lesson in itself. Printing/non-intentional display of a CCW may not result in a similar situation (maybe an anti-crying “wolf” and a brief interview with the local PD), but in the extreme it may also prompt an attempt by trash to obtain it from you.

Although common practices employed to protect your arms (concealed or nnot) may indeed be an indicator to others in the business that you may be carrying, most folks would not register the fact.

Think through how you stand in a queue at the gas station, how you position yourself in room, restaturant, how your stance is built in simply talking to someon on the street or office or wherever.

Life is tactics. Be prepared.

[BradWesleyoftheInternet]

I don’t open carry, and never have.

But weapon retention is one of my major concerns. This is why when I carry it is in the appendix position. It is a lot harder to get to my weapon when it is on the front of my hip, instead of behind me at the 3 o’clock or higher position.

My hands naturally rest near the pistol. It is much harder to get your arms around someone and cleanly draw from their body if the weapon is in front of your hips.

And if they do want to wrestle for it, that’s what the Benchmade in other pocket is for.

[Ozymandias Ghost]

Thx for posting that and I appreciate the clarification as many are probably not aware of that fact. I was aware of the NY state vs NYC concealed carry disparity ...but that still leaves all of NYC and that's a huge number of people ...and probably the place in NY you'd most need to carry.

Regards,

-Geoff

[Ozymandias Ghost]

Thx for posting that and I appreciate the clarification as many are probably not aware of that fact. I was aware of the NY state vs NYC concealed carry disparity ...but that still leaves all of NYC and that's a huge number of people ...and probably the place in NY you'd most need to carry.

Regards,

-Geoff